O.v.o And C.r.&.p Venues

[Steve G]

I collect original vinyl myself but wouldn't dream of foisting that finance-draining obssesssion onto other people.

But no one is forced to DJ are they?

Still think it's a mix of laziness and ignorance to DJ with bootlegs.

[Epic]

Makes no odds, but next time the likes of World of Happiness - Ann Robinson is played out for example, demand to see it, the DJ himself told me it was an accetate in the pub . Many times i requested this song coz i like it and i wanted to dance to it

Think how many times you have heard Frank Wilson without Kenny Burrell or Tim Brown behind the decks - & then think how many times you have seen someone go over to the DJ to complain - let me hazard a guess - NEVER!!!

Sums up the scene & this thread how it really is & not some rare soul Utopia which has never existed & never will.

[Pete S]

But no one is forced to DJ are they?

Still think it's a mix of laziness and ignorance to DJ with bootlegs.

and money

[Steve G]

and money

Plemnty of cheap good records out there Pete. You sell enough of 'em.

[Guest sjay]

I.T.S. -the real deal steve !!,as you have twice now been one of one of our guests, we always book ovo guests , people have different views on this I know, but people must wonder why its known as the rare soul scene , ask this what came first the chicken or the egg or the original or the boot , if back in the day people hadnt gone out and found obcscure soul records and made them popular no one would ever have booted them in the first place, someone said earlier in a 1 hour spot you play 20 records if someone cant play 20 originals why are they DJing??

steve

[Russ Vickers]

Hitsville can be added to the OVO list. And that's 2 soul nights, an allnighter and an alldayer, plus 5 x 1 hour radio shows where I doubt there'll be a single repeat play.

Abso.......bloody...........lutely.............& when your doing 2 sets & the radio show, when flying on Ryanair (baggage allowance), you have to have some real confidence in ya choices of tunes for the weekend..............BTW as my baggage allowance on Ryanair is p*ss poor, I hope you guys dont mind me spending the entire weekend in Knicks n Flipflops & a stategically placed record box .

OVO...........

Russ

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think I said it was nothing to do with format or O.V.O. Just didn't appeal for a variety of reasons. Did enjoy some do over in Barnsley run by Geordie Johnson a while back but it shut down soon after. No doubt similar playlists too but who knows what it is that actually makes for an enjoyable night. Down to individual preferences I guess, and I don't just mean playlists.

ROD

[Guest]

Take the dancers out of the equation and what are you left with?? DJ's and promoters complaining on SS that their particular do is half or nearly empty and wanting a cull of someone else 's do.

In my opinion this scene is primarily about the music and expressing yourself to that music, i.e, dancing. Everything else is secondary.

i couldnt agree more the word "SOUL" says it all to me

[Sean Hampsey]

But the 3Gs isn't a northern venue is it? We're talking NORTHERN here Sean -

Sorry Steve, I'm not trying to be contrary, but I really struggle with this one.

The 3G's has been proposed as an addition to the list by Mark (above) along with the Greatstones.

Let me ask you, is a venue 'UP NORTH' playing late 60's & 70's Soul not what we might call a NORTHERN night?

I would say it's (at least) very much what a Northern based Soul night 'should' be (It's a superb place, by the way!) and that Soul fans (North or South) should flock there. I only mentioned that particular venue as an example where such an open minded crowd might have enjoyed a few recent Soul releases in with the mix, as they had at Worcester a couple of weeks prior. In an age where guys such as Pete Smith are making new release recommendations (gawd bless him) surely we shouldn't be closing the door and being proscriptive on newer material because of 'format restrictions'... should we?

This OVO policy, if it's to be taken as read, prevents the promotion of good quality new Soul music to Soul lovers, by virtue of the fact that new releases on vinyl are in scant supply. As we all know, most newly released Soul music does not appear on vinyl. That's been the case for years (I shudder to think of the scores of great tunes that have been missed by people who might otherwise have been able to enjoy them).

If this 'policy' restricts the opportunity for a DJ to play a brand new Soul track - which is only available on CD - that is prohibition of the art form and counter productive to the promotion of good quality Soul Music in the UK - surely?

If it even extends to where an upcoming DJ is denied the opportunity to play a legitimate 're-issue' to a crowd at a Soul night (theres a good few quality re-issues about these days - many of them through the likes of SS members Paul Mooney, Gary Cape, Ady Croasdell, Tony Rounce etc - all just crying out to be played) then isn't that also some kind of restrictive practice?

Someone stated earlier that the scene was always based on original vinyl... well, of course, that was all we had back then. We played NEW releases on the only format that was available - now we have alternative formats but, with OVO the opportunity to play new material seems to be closing and it's stifling the programming of good quality new releases.

By the way, as a record collector, I'm very much an OV person and fully in agreement that Bootlegs should neither be played or encouraged - always have been. Its blatant piracy... but for the 'Northern Scene' to promote (or enforce) an entirely OVO policy and tar legitimate CD & legitimately 'reissued' Vinyl releases with the same brush is taking that particular aspect of our scene to the extreme (IMO).

Sean

[Dave Moore]

Abso.......bloody...........lutely.............& when your doing 2 sets & the radio show, when flying on Ryanair (baggage allowance), you have to have some real confidence in ya choices of tunes for the weekend..............BTW as my baggage allowance on Ryanair is p*ss poor, I hope you guys dont mind me spending the entire weekend in Knicks n Flipflops & a stategically placed record box .

OVO...........

Russ

He He! You can borrow an old pair of Greety's skiddies if yer get stuck!

See you Friday Matey. We'll be at it from the off. Nice cold one will be waiting for you.

[Steve G]

Think how many times you have heard Frank Wilson without Kenny Burrell or Tim Brown behind the decks - & then think how many times you have seen someone go over to the DJ to complain - let me hazard a guess - NEVER!!!

the only time I've heard this out in donkeys years was when I had the honour to guest alongside Kenny Burrell in Rimini last year. It's not still getting played is it??? Go to venues most weeks and you just don't hear it.

[Russ Vickers]

So if I see a load of miserable looking f*ckers wearing bowler hats, red carnation and ties, dragging hapless dj's from thier Northants beds and culling them to death in the street, I can assume this is the soul police?

Yes............allo,allo,allo..........somebody has got to stand up for whats right & proppa & not be brow beaten by people who 'dont get it'.

Russ

[Epic]

the only time I've heard this out in donkeys years was when I had the honour to guest alongside Kenny Burrell in Rimini last year. It's not still getting played is it??? Go to venues most weeks and you just don't hear it.

That's because you go to OVO venues.

[Modernsoulsucks]

But no one is forced to DJ are they?

Still think it's a mix of laziness and ignorance to DJ with bootlegs.

Obviously not but if they want to dj with a box of boots and the opportunity is there what is the harm and who are we to say they shouldn't.

I don't put it down to laziness or ignorance but just a different mindset to that of you and me.

ROD

[Steve G]

Sorry Steve, I'm not trying to be contrary, but I really struggle with this one.

The 3G's has been proposed as an addition to the list by Mark (above) along with the Greatstones.

Let me ask you, is a venue 'UP NORTH' playing late 60's & 70's Soul not what we might call a NORTHERN night?

I would say it's (at least) very much what a Northern based Soul night 'should' be (It's a superb place, by the way!) and that Soul fans (North or South) should flock there. I only mentioned that particular venue as an example where such an open minded crowd might have enjoyed a few recent Soul releases in with the mix, as they had at Worcester a couple of weeks prior. In an age where guys such as Pete Smith are making new release recommendations (gawd bless him) surely we shouldn't be closing the door and being proscriptive on newer material because of 'format restrictions'... should we?

This OVO policy, if it's to be taken as read, prevents the promotion of good quality new Soul music to Soul lovers, by virtue of the fact that new releases on vinyl are in scant supply. As we all know, most newly released Soul music does not appear on vinyl. That's been the case for years (I shudder to think of the scores of great tunes that have been missed by people who might otherwise have been able to enjoy them).

If this 'policy' restricts the opportunity for a DJ to play a brand new Soul track - which is only available on CD - that is prohibition of the art form and counter productive to the promotion of good quality Soul Music in the UK - surely?

If it even extends to where an upcoming DJ is denied the opportunity to play a legitimate 're-issue' to a crowd at a Soul night (theres a good few quality re-issues about these days - many of them through the likes of SS members Paul Mooney, Gary Cape, Ady Croasdell, Tony Rounce etc - all just crying out to be played) then isn't that also some kind of restrictive practice?

Someone stated earlier that the scene was always based on original vinyl... well, of course, that was all we had back then. We played NEW releases on the only format that was available - now we have alternative formats but, with OVO the opportunity to play new material seems to be closing and it's stifling the programming of good quality new releases.

By the way, as a record collector, I'm very much an OV person and fully in agreement that Bootlegs should neither be played or encouraged - always have been. Its blatant piracy... but for the 'Northern Scene' to promote (or enforce) an entirely OVO policy and tar legitimate CD & legitimately 'reissued' Vinyl releases with the same brush is taking that particular aspect of our scene to the extreme (IMO).

Sean

As always an articulate and well put case, and certainly when you look at crossover / 70s orientated venues, I know there is a more tolerant attitude. You know me well enough to know that I love venues like 3Gs etc. (and will add them to the list along with the "Lets book Steve G" Orwell ) and certainly am one who plays across the board do use different formats - just not at northern soul nights. I have played The Hesitations on Kent (last years anniversary single) by way of example. I do know the corners can get blurred and I've always played new releases too.

What we're really on about is playing northern soul reissue CDs (great for the car) and those nasty styrene pressings with the 6 digit Delta numbers of old cheesy "favourites" like "Wanted and needed" etc.(not so great for the car).

[Epic]

This OVO policy, if it's to be taken as read, prevents the promotion of good quality new Soul music to Soul lovers, by virtue of the fact that new releases on vinyl are in scant supply. As we all know, most newly released Soul music does not appear on vinyl. That's been the case for years (I shudder to think of the scores of great tunes that have been missed by people who might otherwise have been able to enjoy them).

If this 'policy' restricts the opportunity for a DJ to play a brand new Soul track - which is only available on CD - that is prohibition of the art form and counter productive to the promotion of good quality Soul Music in the UK - surely?

If it even extends to where an upcoming DJ is denied the opportunity to play a legitimate 're-issue' to a crowd at a Soul night (theres a good few quality re-issues about these days - many of them through the likes of SS members Paul Mooney, Gary Cape, Ady Croasdell, Tony Rounce etc - all just crying out to be played) then isn't that also some kind of restrictive practice?

Sean

Stop this common sense at once - it is totally unacceptable that so far into this thread a voice of reason has spoken up. I ask you where is the fun in playing & listening to previously unreleased rare soul?

[Russ Vickers]

There are some seriously rare tunes out there and thousands of people would have never heard them if they had not been repressed in some form or another and only the elite few would know about them J. D. Bryant. springs to mind, so would the valuation also be different the lesser amount of people knew about it or not.

Also you would have to find out who had these tunes and where they were djing to be able to listen to some of them thats if they actually bring the said records thus making the N/S scene seem smaller and elitist when i thought the N/S was about the appreciation of the music from the Artists/Writers/Producers of the music we all love as well as meeting like minded people who feel the same way, but having said that i do prefer my originals £10 or £10,000 if they are good enough then play them.

cheers Ralph

I actually thought that was the point, travelling to hear a particular DJ at a particular venue, to hear records that are exclusive to that DJ......... havnt we been doing this for years.............with regards to legal reissues, for example the Shrine back catalogue, then yes, listen to the Kent LP's or the CD's at home until you puke & yes, your spot on mate, it means we can all broaden our collections & hear 'JD Bryant' at home or else where, but just dont DJ with anything unless its on the original format.

I do have 'carvers' of unissued material, just so I can DJ with them, unfortunately most NS venues still dont have a CD player let alone a device for playing 4 track tape, so I feel justified in doing this.

Russ

[Steve G]

I.T.S. -the real deal steve !!,as you have twice now been one of one of our guests, we always book ovo guests , steve

Yes and will add to the list. I haven't been adding venues until promotors say. but Spalding is a top night.

[Tomangoes]

Lets be realistic, if DJs are not going to play original format, then they may as well play cd/mp3 format as its the easiest way to have the biggest selection, like at Soul in the Sun etc/Manhattens bar.

These days i'm not sure if the main credentials of a good DJ is simply that they have original format music. Its great if they have, but making the crowd have a good time is probably more important on the whole.

Everybody has got almost every record on cd/mp3 anyway, so the super rare stuff thats not been re-issued one way or another up to now is going to be covered up anyway.

Ed

[Steve G]

most NS venues still dont have a CD player, so I feel justified in doing this.

Russ

drax does apparantly In all seriousness yes most northern nights do not have such technology as CD players for the unreleased stuff. ANyway you don't have to justify it Russ. My unissued stuff is on carver, just I don't play them that often.

[Russ Vickers]

I think for Northern venues the BIGGER problem is too many average (at best) Dj's - no imagination - shit scared to take a chance.

Derek

................must see tumbleweeds at least once for me to consider my set worth while .........(many a true word has been said in jest ).

Russ

[Steve G]

................must see tumbleweeds at least once for me to consider my set worth while .........(many a true word has been said in jest ).

Russ

I feel exactly the same - clear the floor at least once or youre playing too safe, but you MUST get it back again.

[Guest andrew bin]

I actually thought that was the point, travelling to hear a particular DJ at a particular venue, to hear records that are exclusive to that DJ......... havnt we been doing this for years.............with regards to legal reissues, for example the Shrine back catalogue, then yes, listen to the Kent LP's or the CD's at home until you puke & yes, your spot on mate, it means we can all broaden our collections & hear 'JD Bryant' at home or else where, but just dont DJ with anything unless its on the original format.

I do have 'carvers' of unissued material, just so I can DJ with them, unfortunately most NS venues still dont have a CD player let alone a device for playing 4 track tape, so I feel justified in doing this.

Russ

isn't this a contradiction surely a carver is a boot regardless if the track is unreleased

[Des Crombie]

What we're really on about is playing northern soul reissue CDs (great for the car) and those nasty styrene pressings with the 6 digit Delta numbers of old cheesy "favourites" like "Wanted and needed" etc.(not so great for the car).

Hold on, surely we are also on about reissues and boots like the stuff they sell here?

https://www.soulon45.co.uk/reissuesak.html

[Modernsoulsucks]

"By the way, as a record collector, I'm very much an OV person and fully in agreement that Bootlegs should neither be played or encouraged - always have been. Its blatant piracy"

Well it is and especially in the context of this thread it isn't. If "Biffo" is playing his Lee David on Ruby [was it?] how is that piracy? OK if we buy bootlegs we encourage those who do them to continue by the fact that they make money out of it. However Biffo himself has not deprived the artist/producer etc of any money because in most instances he never had the opportunity to buy the original as a new current 45 and so putting his money into the right pockets.

I mean buying the original to play isn't benefitting the artists either. Wouldn't we have to all buy the legit re-releases from Kent say to get money to the right people and Im sure most don't go out and buy something on re-release if they already have the original.

Bit of a moral minefield really although I do think the bootleggers need to be discouraged. And a quick moan about Motown unreleased stuff. Advance copies on 45 for some "top" dj's, followed by sporadic bootlegging and the morons with the rights don't release tracks as 45s. As the guy who brought over that original few on tape back in the 80's I coulda done a better job than those tossers. We'd have a Motown 101 series well on it's way by now and no wonder the sharks have stepped in.

Finally I'd generalise and say that the type of dj like hypothetical "Biffo" with his boots is probably more than likely to buy the re-issues that are legit as well cos all he's interested in is the sound so he's probably contributing more to the artists etc than us original only freaks.

ROD

Edited September 15, 2008 by modernsoulsucks

[Steve G]

Hold on, surely we are also on about reissues and boots like the stuff they sell here?

https://www.soulon45.co.uk/reissuesak.html

Oh yes` - blatant piracy

Edited September 15, 2008 by Steve G

[Dr Good Soul]

Obviously not but if they want to dj with a box of boots and the opportunity is there what is the harm and who are we to say they shouldn't.

I don't put it down to laziness or ignorance but just a different mindset to that of you and me.

ROD

May be the punter who paid the tenner to get him & his missus

in the place, not to mention petrol money

to hear hammered to death classic's

may have something to say

Steve.

[Russ Vickers]

He He! You can borrow an old pair of Greety's skiddies if yer get stuck!

See you Friday Matey. We'll be at it from the off. Nice cold one will be waiting for you.

I think I'll need it mate............hangin' ot mi ass at hte moment, man flu & its pooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!. See you Friday matey.

Russ

[Guest Paul]

Oh yes` - blatant piracy

Absolutely.

[Russ Vickers]

isn't this a contradiction surely a carver is a boot regardless if the track is unreleased

If a track has never been issued, one copy for DJ use only & no financial gain............oh WTF why am I bothering, can someone else please explain this for me ......................

Russ

[Modernsoulsucks]

May be the punter who paid the tenner to get him & his missus

in the place, not to mention petrol money

to hear hammered to death classic's

may have something to say

Steve.

Well yes but only if you'd not checked out the night beforehand which with sites like this and word of mouth is relatively easy. Im kinda talking like-minded crowd who really don't mind.

I sympathise with that view but then I've done the same only to hear rare OVO 45s I've heard a thousand times too, and years ago.

It's not the format. It's the type of venue and the thinking behind the playlists that attract the crowd you're wanting to entertain.

ROD

Edited September 15, 2008 by modernsoulsucks

[Guest kev such]

So your OVO apart from your last record Kev? I'll start a new category.....

OVOAFTY (OVO apart from Timi Yuro)......Maybe time to invest ina Liberty UK copy

One day it will be mine, oh yes.

[Guest]

Can I add The Soulful Shack to the list of OVO venues we have been approached by prospective DJs who asked if it was OK to play pressings and of course the answer was no and the DJ not booked

When I first got into the soul scene years ago, it was the enticement that I may never be able to afford these fantastic tracks (only hope) and I knew I had to go to SPECIAL places to hear them. Unfortunately now too many venues are bland and have no intention of ever being special just sufficient

[jocko]

Steve you are a brave man, you have taken on the mantle in a battle that is about as winnable as Tottenham now winning the Premiership.

I love the way its changed around on here nowadays, I suspect the non progressive punters are by far in the majority and shout the loudest, and have the most to gain by shouting down the "soul police***"

As Russ V says you either get it or you don't, thats not arrogant just a fact. The whole ethos of collecting has been around longer than many people now shouting the odds. If you don't get it well and good, carry on but dont pretend the whole record collecting scene around the DJ's is something new, it has been around a lot longer than the current mass media frenzy where every man and his dog now runs a night and DJ's, which to me is the real issue. I think the debate should be focused on the real lack of quality and originality from 99.9% of people who call themselves DJ's now. Some of the "something different" playlists on here have me guffawing out loud.

I actually don't care about the overall argument now, I sort of agree with Pete and Rod, I think its irrelevant to the people who want a progressive scene. Yes its annoying when lots on here come on banging about playing something different, but in reality its just their egos they are stoking with their monthly soul nights. How many on here recently talking about their monthly soul nights actually go to any other soul nights, never mind all nighters. I am amazed when there are people on here saying they are doing something different with their soul night but put it on a night competing with Lifeline or Burnley.

Now the soul nights have taken precedence it to me is the final nail in any progressive scenes future, personally I think its been a slow death over the last 10 years but since a large number havent even been around that long I expect they will disagree

I think the one very interesting point is Sean's, the quantity and quality of unreleased stuff is frightening, I would actually respect a local soul night that had the balls to make this the crux of their night rather than boring same old shit on OVO.

The fact that the scene has about 6 or 7 main all nighters scattered over the year makes any sort of continuity difficult I accept. However the fact that Butch only djs at 2 of them says it all really, any Northern scene, even in current times, that can't be assed to work with him as their main DJ has lost the plot and lost all context of what the nighter scene always was, and always should be about. No matter what people say this wouldnt have happened from mid 70's to late 90's.

The real problem is half assed monthly soul nights, I challenge the various promoters of such to stand up and say that what they are doing is different and why, I guarantee that will leave a very few genuinely something different progressive nights that are not just ego trips for the promoters, many of whom I bet travel no further than their county boundaries. They are out there, but few and far between in my mind. Again thats no problem if thats what people want, but in reality its just the British Legion for our generation, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself.

Its really not rocket science, and I think most people agree with Rod/Pete, given the amount of local soul nights, I really cant be assed arguing the toss about what is played at these. The one thing I do disagree with though, is if you do care its not hard to pick out the places, and more importantly the DJ's who do it the right way, and support them and let the rest of the many soul scenes get on with their life in their own little bubble.

Okay, take a breath and finish the Gin. Gnight

PS *** The soul police phrase is now used about a million times a day on here, generally by knobheads, IMVHO, but often by people who should know better, its generally directed at people who care and who believe in quality control, good on them, wear the badge with pride, I would. This must be the only scene where people try and ridicule those who care about its quality.

Edited September 15, 2008 by jocko

[Guest]

Steve you are a brave man, you have taken on the mantle in a battle that is about as winnable as Tottenham now winning the Premiership.

I love the way its changed around on here nowadays, I suspect the non progressive punters are by far in the majority and shout the loudest, and have the most to gain by shouting down the "soul police***"

As Russ V says you either get it or you don't, thats not arrogant just a fact. The whole ethos of collecting has been around longer than many people now shouting the odds. If you don't get it well and good, carry on but dont pretend the whole record collecting scene around the DJ's is something new, it has been around a lot longer than the current mass media frenzy where every man and his dog now runs a night and DJ's, which to me is the real issue. I think the debate should be focused on the real lack of quality and originality from 99.9% of people who call themselves DJ's now. Some of the "something different" playlists on here have me guffawing out loud.

I actually don't care about the overall argument now, I sort of agree with Pete and Rod, I think its irrelevant to the people who want a progressive scene. Yes its annoying when lots on here come on banging about playing something different, but in reality its just their egos they are stoking with their monthly soul nights. How many on here recently talking about their monthly soul nights actually go to any other soul nights, never mind all nighters. I am amazed when there are people on here saying they are doing something different with their soul night but put it on a night competing with Lifeline or Burnley.

Now the soul nights have taken precedence it to me is the final nail in any progressive scenes future, personally I think its been a slow death over the last 10 years but since a large number havent even been around that long I expect they will disagree

I think the one very interesting point is Sean's, the quantity and quality of unreleased stuff is frightening, I would actually respect a local soul night that had the balls to make this the crux of their night rather than boring same old shit on OVO.

The fact that the scene has about 6 or 7 main all nighters scattered over the year makes any sort of continuity difficult I accept. However the fact that Butch only djs at 2 of them says it all really, any Northern scene, even in current times, that can't be assed to work with him as their main DJ has lost the plot and lost all context of what the nighter scene always was, and always should be about. No matter what people say this wouldnt have happened from mid 70's to late 90's.

The real problem is half assed monthly soul nights, I challenge the various promoters of such to stand up and say that what they are doing is different and why, I guarantee that will leave a very few genuinely something different progressive nights that are not just ego trips for the promoters, many of whom I better travel no further than their county boundaries. They are out there, but few and far between in my mind. Again thats no problem if thats what people want, but in reality its just the British Legion for our generation, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself.

Its really not rocket science, and I think most people agree with Rod/Pete, given the amount of local soul nights, I really cant be assed arguing the toss about what is played at these. The one thing I do disagree with though, is if you do care its not hard to pick out the places, and more importantly the DJ's who do it the right way, and support them and let the rest of the many soul scenes get on with their life in their own little bubble.

Okay, take a breath and finish the Gin. Gnight

PS *** The soul police phrase is now used about a million times a day on here, generally by knobheads, IMVHO, but often by people who should know better, its generally directed at people who care and who believe in quality control, good on them, wear the badge with pride, I would. This must be the only scene where people try and ridicule those who care about its quality.

Jocko

Funny I was having a very similar conversation with Harry Crosby at Barnsley a couple of weeks ago

Every record doesnt have to be rare as rocking horse shit, it should be the quality that matters

Our venue may not appeal to everyone but I can guarentee you will never hear Blues in the night, Cause your mine, etc etc ........... but we do try and play early 60s soul, R&B and popcorn that isnt generally played elsewhere and try and book quality DJs like Johnny Fingers, Stevie Z, Chris Penn , Pete Griffin etc

This month we have Bob Morris ( who has forgotten more than I know ) and Steve Crookes who will both bring their own personal quality to the night

If we fail it wont be for want of trying

Cheers

Steve

[Maark]

Steve you are a brave man, you have taken on the mantle in a battle that is about as winnable as Tottenham now winning the Premiership.

I love the way its changed around on here nowadays, I suspect the non progressive punters are by far in the majority and shout the loudest, and have the most to gain by shouting down the "soul police***"

As Russ V says you either get it or you don't, thats not arrogant just a fact. The whole ethos of collecting has been around longer than many people now shouting the odds. If you don't get it well and good, carry on but dont pretend the whole record collecting scene around the DJ's is something new, it has been around a lot longer than the current mass media frenzy where every man and his dog now runs a night and DJ's, which to me is the real issue. I think the debate should be focused on the real lack of quality and originality from 99.9% of people who call themselves DJ's now. Some of the "something different" playlists on here have me guffawing out loud.

I actually don't care about the overall argument now, I sort of agree with Pete and Rod, I think its irrelevant to the people who want a progressive scene. Yes its annoying when lots on here come on banging about playing something different, but in reality its just their egos they are stoking with their monthly soul nights. How many on here recently talking about their monthly soul nights actually go to any other soul nights, never mind all nighters. I am amazed when there are people on here saying they are doing something different with their soul night but put it on a night competing with Lifeline or Burnley.

Now the soul nights have taken precedence it to me is the final nail in any progressive scenes future, personally I think its been a slow death over the last 10 years but since a large number havent even been around that long I expect they will disagree

I think the one very interesting point is Sean's, the quantity and quality of unreleased stuff is frightening, I would actually respect a local soul night that had the balls to make this the crux of their night rather than boring same old shit on OVO.

The fact that the scene has about 6 or 7 main all nighters scattered over the year makes any sort of continuity difficult I accept. However the fact that Butch only djs at 2 of them says it all really, any Northern scene, even in current times, that can't be assed to work with him as their main DJ has lost the plot and lost all context of what the nighter scene always was, and always should be about. No matter what people say this wouldnt have happened from mid 70's to late 90's.

The real problem is half assed monthly soul nights, I challenge the various promoters of such to stand up and say that what they are doing is different and why, I guarantee that will leave a very few genuinely something different progressive nights that are not just ego trips for the promoters, many of whom I bet travel no further than their county boundaries. They are out there, but few and far between in my mind. Again thats no problem if thats what people want, but in reality its just the British Legion for our generation, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself.

Its really not rocket science, and I think most people agree with Rod/Pete, given the amount of local soul nights, I really cant be assed arguing the toss about what is played at these. The one thing I do disagree with though, is if you do care its not hard to pick out the places, and more importantly the DJ's who do it the right way, and support them and let the rest of the many soul scenes get on with their life in their own little bubble.

Okay, take a breath and finish the Gin. Gnight

PS *** The soul police phrase is now used about a million times a day on here, generally by knobheads, IMVHO, but often by people who should know better, its generally directed at people who care and who believe in quality control, good on them, wear the badge with pride, I would. This must be the only scene where people try and ridicule those who care about its quality.

Written like an eloquent Mr Darcy.......

[Russ Vickers]

Written like an eloquent Mr Darcy.......

.............very funny mate, needed cheering up, man flu is poo..............however I agree with every single word Jocko has written........

'here endeth the sermon'.

Russ

[Maark]

.............very funny mate, needed cheering up, man flu is poo..............however I agree with every single word Jocko has written........

'here endeth the sermon'.

Russ

Actually Russ, I agree with alot of what Jocko has written and sometimes I even find myself agreeing with Mr Darcy too.

But I also see the side where people just want to go out and dance and forget about everything.

Oh and sorry about the man flu....if you ent seen this.....

Edited September 16, 2008 by Maark

[Ian Dewhirst]

Steve you are a brave man, you have taken on the mantle in a battle that is about as winnable as Tottenham now winning the Premiership.

I love the way its changed around on here nowadays, I suspect the non progressive punters are by far in the majority and shout the loudest, and have the most to gain by shouting down the "soul police***"

As Russ V says you either get it or you don't, thats not arrogant just a fact. The whole ethos of collecting has been around longer than many people now shouting the odds. If you don't get it well and good, carry on but dont pretend the whole record collecting scene around the DJ's is something new, it has been around a lot longer than the current mass media frenzy where every man and his dog now runs a night and DJ's, which to me is the real issue. I think the debate should be focused on the real lack of quality and originality from 99.9% of people who call themselves DJ's now. Some of the "something different" playlists on here have me guffawing out loud.

I actually don't care about the overall argument now, I sort of agree with Pete and Rod, I think its irrelevant to the people who want a progressive scene. Yes its annoying when lots on here come on banging about playing something different, but in reality its just their egos they are stoking with their monthly soul nights. How many on here recently talking about their monthly soul nights actually go to any other soul nights, never mind all nighters. I am amazed when there are people on here saying they are doing something different with their soul night but put it on a night competing with Lifeline or Burnley.

Now the soul nights have taken precedence it to me is the final nail in any progressive scenes future, personally I think its been a slow death over the last 10 years but since a large number havent even been around that long I expect they will disagree

I think the one very interesting point is Sean's, the quantity and quality of unreleased stuff is frightening, I would actually respect a local soul night that had the balls to make this the crux of their night rather than boring same old shit on OVO.

The fact that the scene has about 6 or 7 main all nighters scattered over the year makes any sort of continuity difficult I accept. However the fact that Butch only djs at 2 of them says it all really, any Northern scene, even in current times, that can't be assed to work with him as their main DJ has lost the plot and lost all context of what the nighter scene always was, and always should be about. No matter what people say this wouldnt have happened from mid 70's to late 90's.

The real problem is half assed monthly soul nights, I challenge the various promoters of such to stand up and say that what they are doing is different and why, I guarantee that will leave a very few genuinely something different progressive nights that are not just ego trips for the promoters, many of whom I bet travel no further than their county boundaries. They are out there, but few and far between in my mind. Again thats no problem if thats what people want, but in reality its just the British Legion for our generation, and to pretend any different is just fooling yourself.

Its really not rocket science, and I think most people agree with Rod/Pete, given the amount of local soul nights, I really cant be assed arguing the toss about what is played at these. The one thing I do disagree with though, is if you do care its not hard to pick out the places, and more importantly the DJ's who do it the right way, and support them and let the rest of the many soul scenes get on with their life in their own little bubble.

Okay, take a breath and finish the Gin. Gnight

PS *** The soul police phrase is now used about a million times a day on here, generally by knobheads, IMVHO, but often by people who should know better, its generally directed at people who care and who believe in quality control, good on them, wear the badge with pride, I would. This must be the only scene where people try and ridicule those who care about its quality.

Eloquent and on the button as per usual Jocko.

I see the OVO arguement clearly but there's an awful lot of nonsense played in the name of OVO - stuff that really doesn't deserve to be played at all IMO. OVO doesn't make a record good and I've been to too many sparsely attended do's which are like the British Legion too!

Ian D

[macca]

I've never actually felt the need to approach the decks.

Such a hideous stench emanates from the speakers when

a non-legit eddie parker is spun that it's evident it's not OV.

under those circumstances one has no other option but to

abandon the ubiquitous maple sprung floor and seek

solace in a bottomless glass in the breathtakingly tacky lounge bar, replete

with 'real leather' sofas.

[Guest Awake 502]

Have you done the test? Does your carvers have louder volume than the original 45s? Does your carvers have a better frequency range? This is very important stuff when DJing with records.

Had a couple of "Carvers" done on big ticket items before I sold them, the difference is too small for most people to notice and I have a serious hi-fi

[Paul Shirley]

quote-I suspect the non progressive punters are by far in the majority and shout the loudest, and have the most to gain by shouting down the "soul police***"

i would agree the non progressive punters are by far the majority ' but not on soul source the vast amount of the non progressive punters have never ever heard of soul source let alone voice an opinion the people that post on soul source in my opinion are in the main colectors dealers dj's & promotors who shout louder than any one .as for the soul police being shouted down ho ho ho is this a joke or somthing?? you dare not even have a bloody opinion if it dont fit in with them , apart from the above i agree with the rest , and just for the record most of my box is full of progresive tunes and the punters at my club are open minded but as we all know it aint easy to keep numbers up it would be so so easy to sell out and play the casino play list but we dont! instead we get shot by both sides . normaly as we are on our way to biger venues during the rest of the month lol. i also seam to rimember some very small iconic clubs that started out just a little back st clubs . but never mind what would i know

Edited September 16, 2008 by mepaul50

[Modernsoulsucks]

Gotta agree with Paul again.

Whatever you want to call them the critics on this thread who are reserving their venom for some little guy playing non-originals would be better off digesting what Jocko has written and maybe asking themselves why it's OK to slate the former purely on the basis of the format and yet allow OVO dj's to get away with the same ole same ole week in week out with a playlist merely plundered from rare 45s from past 25 years that if not overplayed are very familiar.

ROD

Edited September 15, 2008 by modernsoulsucks

[Sean Hampsey]

"By the way, as a record collector, I'm very much an OV person and fully in agreement that Bootlegs should neither be played or encouraged - always have been. Its blatant piracy"

Well it is and especially in the context of this thread it isn't. If "Biffo" is playing his Lee David on Ruby [was it?] how is that piracy? OK if we buy bootlegs we encourage those who do them to continue by the fact that they make money out of it. However Biffo himself has not deprived the artist/producer etc of any money because in most instances he never had the opportunity to buy the original as a new current 45 and so putting his money into the right pockets.

I mean buying the original to play isn't benefitting the artists either. Wouldn't we have to all buy the legit re-releases from Kent say to get money to the right people and Im sure most don't go out and buy something on re-release if they already have the original.

Bit of a moral minefield really although I do think the bootleggers need to be discouraged. And a quick moan about Motown unreleased stuff. Advance copies on 45 for some "top" dj's, followed by sporadic bootlegging and the morons with the rights don't release tracks as 45s. As the guy who brought over that original few on tape back in the 80's I coulda done a better job than those tossers. We'd have a Motown 101 series well on it's way by now and no wonder the sharks have stepped in.

Finally I'd generalise and say that the type of dj like hypothetical "Biffo" with his boots is probably more than likely to buy the re-issues that are legit as well cos all he's interested in is the sound so he's probably contributing more to the artists etc than us original only freaks.

ROD

All good points, Rod, though I didn't mean that 'playing' Bootlegs was 'piracy'... I meant the practice of 'Bootlegging' itself.

DJ's who use these materials seem to give some legitimacy to the practice and it is for that reason I feel it needs to be discouraged.

That said, I proudly boast a complete set of Soul Sounds bootlegs and an almost complete set of OOTP - but that's purely an extension of the 'collector' in me - and I'd never play any of them when deejaying (particularly as they're all played out oldies ).

Agree wholeheartedly that your hypothetical friend 'Biffo' is the guy most likely to buy the legit re-issues. And why not. I guess he's the one they are aimed at, rather than the hardcore 'collector' - and in any case I'm sure there are more Biffo's than Steve G's so hopefully some of the revenue ends up with the right people, as you suggest, rather than just with the canny record dealer, as is often the case.

Sean

[Sean Hampsey]

I do know the corners can get blurred and I've always played new releases too.

What we're really on about is playing northern soul reissue CDs (great for the car) and those nasty styrene pressings with the 6 digit Delta numbers of old cheesy "favourites" like "Wanted and needed" etc.(not so great for the car).

OK mate, all good but think some of your post needs further clarification...

...so you would support the programming of Grapevine / Kent 45's etc? i.e. legitimate vinyl releases - dues paid in full - as per the above?

I'm guessing you'll say yes to that question... but I'd wager that many would say or feel that these are unacceptable.

And how about newly released material on CD only?

I'm guessing you'll say yes to that question... but I'd wager that many would say or feel that these are also unacceptable.

Just need to make this clear, cos I reckon that this has got more interpretations, trips and turns than the offside rule.

Sean

[Mace]

The fact that the scene has about 6 or 7 main all nighters scattered over the year makes any sort of continuity difficult I accept. However the fact that Butch only djs at 2 of them says it all really, any Northern scene, even in current times, that can't be assed to work with him as their main DJ has lost the plot and lost all context of what the nighter scene always was, and always should be about. No matter what people say this wouldnt have happened from mid 70's to late 90's.

Butch is resident at 4 main allnighters, not just 2 (Lifeline/100 Club/Keele/Kings Hall) though I suppose you could argue that his playlist is more restricted at Kings Hall than the first 3.

However, Butch has also chosen to be far more selective at which venues he DJs at, and coupled with the fact that he ain't cheap to book, means that many promoters can't either get him or afford him....so it's not just down to the scene, or indeed promoters, that he is not DJing as often as you believe he should be.

Regards

Mace

[Guest Gogs]

As i have stated already i don't think "joe punter" gives a flying f### as to what format is being played as long as they can dance to it. I also think that steve has the right idea in not listing venues but listing dj's that people know who play ovo, imho

Edited September 16, 2008 by Gogs

[Guest]

A salutary lesson for people who hammer their OV, would be the other week where a famous name DJ had to have his records valued for legal reasons. Condition was marked out of 10 and he was averaging around 5-6 out of 10 on most of his top tunes. In real terms, this meant that his £200K book price of the records was reduced to circa £100-120K because of the relatively poor condition of most of them! This is because he is an OVO DJ and wears his records on his sleeve.

I would have thought that many of these records were really too valuable to be played on an assortment of decks which can only devalue them massively. And collectors and buyers put such a premium on the condition that I'm surprised people would actually risk playing a 5K rarity out on wildly differing equipment. They must be nuts. It's not much fun listening to 'em if they're beaten up or have 'styrene burn'.

Also, I'm noticing a few people now playing boots of their own rarities becuase they don't want to risk wearing out the originals. So if someone has an original Billy Woods on styrene and obviously doesn't want to risk ruining it so plays the bootleg instead, is that acceptable?

Also isn't the whole OVO thing really about money? Namely, whoever can afford to have a boxful of the the most valuable records? If someone won the lottery tomorrow and went on a huge buying spree they could be challenging Butch by mid next week couldn't they?

Playing the format game can only restrict the scene in a wider sense. It strikes me as being elitist for elitist's sake if you see what I mean and will eventually fragment the scene even further because really, 98% of the customers don't even know whether OV is being played or not. They don't mind!

I think that it's really different strokes for different types of events. On the cutting edge of the rare biggies scene naturally everyone would be expected to play OVO. That's the nature of the beast and the kind of gig where an OVO policy possibly makes sense. Although I'm increasingly seeing boxes of carvers at quite a few different gigs these days. As one famous DJ from another 'Rare' scene told me, he doesn't spend £2K on a record to wear it out in a few months. He makes carvers of EVERY rarity he owns and keeps the originals at home.

But you'd seriously have to be stupid to be playing OVO rare oldies on a regular basis. To risk wrecking a Joe Mathews, Billy Woods or Mel Britt to different needles every week is either just plain stupid or a great way to depreciate both your financial and emotional investment by 50%!

Ian D

That can be easily solved by an OVO DJ , Ian .........

They take their own pair of styli , and use them whilst they are doing thier set .......

Not a farcical idea , as I know several DJs who do this ........

Malc Burton

[Guest]

Really !! how would ya' know ? strange all this boot playing how come no-one gets outed for it ? then slaughtered on here,bout time we wheeled out the S/Source duckin' stool i say !!

[Guest]

Really !! how would ya' know ? strange all this boot playing how come no-one gets outed for it ? then slaughtered on here,bout time we wheeled out the S/Source duckin' stool i say !!

I've said this before "LET HE/SHE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE" and i mean ever !!!! whos got the balls not many me thinks i'll happily be ducked Ken , it'll be quite refreshing i once played a Carlena boot

Edited September 16, 2008 by Guest