Most Expensive?

[Guest Brett F]

Gee, I guess the one that sold on ebay 6 months ago for 158GBP by a british seller that even quotes the manship million dollars book in the auction itself (which you can search on popsike and see for yourself), as well as manship's own under-4-figure recent auction sale must be wrong. And all the other info in the book that's wrong isn't wrong. It has been on ebay several other times for less too. Feel free to pay 4 figures for it though.

p.s. I love Andy's dig at Greg for being American...

Hi Bob, yeah it's an interesting one this, i think the book is a couple of years old, with over 1000 rare records listed there are only around 13 (including the majority mentioned on this thread) that get this high (most expensive) rating, including the "Otis" 45' we are on about, it would be good to have John's input on this. I suppose most top dealers have their own system based upon many years of dealing etc. I have heard John say that sometimes he is surprised what things go for at auction, either high or low. ps..you'll never get me paying four figures..i'm a Yorkshireman.

[Guest Brett F]

Just out of interest, seeing as this thread is about the most expensive soul record, i see in Tim Browns latest price guide he has Frank Wilson valued at £25,000.

[Dave Moore]

Bob, no dig at all, just stating a fact that many Americans, largely because they haven't had the benefit of being immersed the whole Northern scene here in England, that often they try and categorise what northern is, rather than being able to go by 'ear and feel'.

I've read some 'gubbins' on here over the years but this is the best.

Some Americans I know have BETTER 'ears and feel' because they haven't had to endure the tripe played by some UK DJs!!

[Guest Brett F]

Junior McCants one of the very rarest/impossible...booked in Tim's old guide at £10,000!!

£7000 in latest guide, gone down 3k then.

[Guest Brett F]

Junior McCants one of the very rarest/impossible...booked in Tim's old guide at £10,000!!

£7000 in latest guide, gone down 3k then.

[Dave Moore]

How long you been out there now Dave????

He he! Touche!!

I'm in Spain for a while now Mate.

It was just a bit of a 'shock' to see Greg's 'audio intrument credentials' questioned. I would have thought most people who know him would vouch for the expertise of his earholes.

[Liam2005]

I remember Kenny telling me that Frank himself had offer $50,000 to buy the 45 (from Kenny). I think the offer was made at blackpool weekender.

Rarest value on a 45???? how about adding the Little Ann (Sterlings old rose valentine c/up) ric tic acetate?...think it was ric-tic?? memory is a bit sketchy... Too much hanging around with Carl fortnum and the likes .

Greg

[Corbett80]

£7000 in latest guide, gone down 3k then.

Weird! Have some turned up then??!

Also what about:

The Counts on Shrine

Milton James on Dore

Frankie Lyman on Big Apple

Magnetics on Sable demo

Tranells.....

...long list....

[pow wow mik]

Yes, that's the record I had. I thought it was crap. I just played the sound file on Manship's site. I still think it's a bad record.

think it's ok, but a 4 figure record!? it's a version of 'you are my sunshine' as done by Ray Charles with the lyrics changed a bit.

[Guest Beeks]

Just out of interest, seeing as this thread is about the most expensive soul record, i see in Tim Browns latest price guide he has Frank Wilson valued at £25,000.

I must admit the Frank Wilson thing is a double edged sword...yes if you had a copy you would be over the moon...but you can't escape the fact it is the most recognised Northern Record in the world...would you really want to play it out?

[Tabs]

Kenny plays it out.

I must admit the Frank Wilson thing is a double edged sword...yes if you had a copy you would be over the moon...but you can't escape the fact it is the most recognised Northern Record in the world...would you really want to play it out?

[Chalky]

Rarest value on a 45???? how about adding the Little Ann (Sterlings old rose valentine c/up) ric tic acetate?...think it was ric-tic?? memory is a bit sketchy... Too much hanging around with Carl fortnum and the likes .

Greg

ey up Greg, the one I had in my hands was I think a 10" Reeves Soundcraft studio acetate, can't remember off top of me head if one side 45 and other 33.

[Guest Beeks]

Kenny plays it out.

I dont know how id feel hearing it in a Soul do...ive heard it a billion times so it's lost it's charm like everything in that vein...as for owning it and playing it at a club...don't think i'd trust myself...too many stellas pulling the needle across and there's a downpayment on a house up in smoke

[pow wow mik]

at least two copies, 1 Roger Banks and 1 Joerg Brenner here in Munich.

I was wondering while reading it if 'trade my soul' was the record Roger plays, I thought that was an acetate and never knew who it was by. What a masterpiece, is it available on cd or a soundfile anywhere?

i've as much clue about what's northern and what isn't as an american , but I was surprised when I found out the antallects was such a big record on the scene. I personally love it, but it is quirky, and has a touch of Duran Duran's 'Rio' about it imo

[Guest Beeks]

but it is quirky, and has a touch of Duran Duran's 'Rio' about it imo

HAHA! Actually!!

[Liam2005]

Yo chalky! hope your keep well matey?

You may be right there re 10" but i thought there was some connection on the acetate re Ric Tic

If no one has mentioned the super rare ESTER GRANT on WILSTONE then that must go into the top ten (surely £8,000+)??

Oh if only i kept my sex pistols 45 back in 1986 (sold it for £250 DOH!!)... though i still have a few thousand Northern 45's under the bed

Greg

[Chalky]

Yo chalky! hope your keep well matey?

You may be right there re 10" but i thought there was some connection on the acetate re Ric Tic

If no one has mentioned the super rare ESTER GRANT on WILSTONE then that must go into the top ten (surely £8,000+)??

Oh if only i kept my sex pistols 45 back in 1986 (sold it for £250 DOH!!)... though i still have a few thousand Northern 45's under the bed

Greg

Not bad pal, hope your the same. Can't remember the information on the disc but definitely Reeves Soundcraft, could have been something else on the label that connects to ric tic. I'll give Gilly a ring when I get the chance and ask him.

[Paul Dunn]

Butch has one too. Another version on same label by Larry Bright.

I have another version on the label by Jimmie Williams (Tide T-45-2015)

Regards

Paul

[Chalky]

I have another version on the label by Jimmie Williams (Tide T-45-2015)

Regards

Paul

Cheers for clearing that up Paul. I was thinking there was one by Jimmie Williams but I had the label as JD in my head. I was beginning to think I was imagining this, couldn't find any reference to it though so didn't say owt. Are they the same singer, Jimmie and E Williams? Sure had a conversation many moons ago and it was assumed they were the same??

Edited September 9, 2008 by chalky

[Weingarden]

Yes, that's the record I had. I thought it was crap. I just played the sound file on Manship's site. I still think it's a bad record.

wow, is it john's dub or the recording itself that's completely out of tune? sound horrendous.

[Ady Croasdell]

I remember Kenny telling me that Frank himself had offer $50,000 to buy the 45 (from Kenny). I think the offer was made at blackpool weekender.

Rarest value on a 45???? how about adding the Little Ann (Sterlings old rose valentine c/up) ric tic acetate?...think it was ric-tic?? memory is a bit sketchy... Too much hanging around with Carl fortnum and the likes .

Greg

Richard Searling's copy was on a very unassuming typed white label as Ann Bridgeforth. Not Ric Tic one of Dave Hamilton and Rony Darrell's own productions that never came out.

If we're talking acetates the Ben E King 8" Mirasound with sheet music must be up there, a complete one-off by a huge artist that even Atlantic didn't have. I'm not selling mind you!

[Guest moggy]

Tim's copy is on the front of the Top 500 book with the water damaged label. Martin's copy went to KB.

Seen Tim's copy at the Ritz the night they had a rarest of the rare nighter there.

Do you think his listing it at 25k in the guide, may in some way be saying to any lotto winner out there "Come and get me"

And why has the 15k barrier never been broken since, there are some seriously rare acetates and and only a couple of known copies of certain records etc, so why, maybe even more so today with some very wealthy people around has it not been broken on the NS scene I mean come on 15k is the price of a half descent motor which will be worth chuff all after three years anyway.

Just Wondering

[Chalky]

Seen Tim's copy at the Ritz the night they had a rarest of the rare nighter there.

Do you think his listing it at 25k in the guide, may in some way be saying to any lotto winner out there "Come and get me"

And why has the 15k barrier never been broken since, there are some seriously rare acetates and and only a couple of known copies of certain records etc, so why, maybe even more so today with some very wealthy people around has it not been broken on the NS scene I mean come on 15k is the price of a half descent motor which will be worth chuff all after three years anyway.

Just Wondering

The £25k in the guides might be something to do with apparently being offered $50K by Frank Wilson which was turned down.

[Guest moggy]

The £25k in the guides might be something to do with apparently being offered $50K by Frank Wilson which was turned down.

I'd have bit his hand off

[Liam2005]

Mr Croasdell..You still carrying it the Acetates (Ben E King) round in a plastic tesco bag's??

you really must go with a recycled bag next time out

Greg

Edited September 10, 2008 by liam2005

[Prophonics 2029]

Where's Ady Potts a man with some very rare records, I am sure he has a couple that have not been mentioned yet.

[Davetay]

I'd have bit his hand off

I,d taken the money as well

[Guest]

If acetates are to be included there are loads of titles that would fit the list like "Keni Lewis", Jesse James, the Originals, Temptations, Contours and many others.

[solidhit]

Has anyone tried to do a survey of how many copies are known to exist of some of the top rarities? It would provide an indication of just how rare these records are. Some of these 4 figure records that exist in dozens of copies might indicate that demand outweighs rarity, while a similarly priced record with only a handful of known copies might indicate that rarity trumps demand in its valuation.

How many copies are there of things like Magnetics "Lady in green" or Don Gardner "Cheating kind"? How closely correlated are price, demand, and rarity? what about throwing in "condition" as another variable on these valuations? How does condition affect value for the top rarities? If a third Frank Wilson showed up, how much of a difference would its condition have on its ultimate selling price?

[Paul Dunn]

Cheers for clearing that up Paul. I was thinking there was one by Jimmie Williams but I had the label as JD in my head. I was beginning to think I was imagining this, couldn't find any reference to it though so didn't say owt. Are they the same singer, Jimmie and E Williams? Sure had a conversation many moons ago and it was assumed they were the same??

Hello Chalky,

It is a different but similar take and I assume a different singer (definately different singing style)

Regards

Paul

[Guest Beeks]

If a third Frank Wilson showed up, how much of a difference would its condition have on its ultimate selling price?

Do you really think there are copies still undiscovered? Sitting in someones collection of records? Surely if you are aware of Frank Wilsons work enough to buy one initially then you are aware of it's reputation...or is it a case of a copy sitting gathering dust in a basement?

[funkyfeet]

Do you really think there are copies still undiscovered? Sitting in someones collection of records? Surely if you are aware of Frank Wilsons work enough to buy one initially then you are aware of it's reputation...or is it a case of a copy sitting gathering dust in a basement?

A Motown collector could well have a copy, they wouldn't have to have any interest in Frank Wilson at all, it could just be a filler to them.

[bri pinch]

Do you really think there are copies still undiscovered? Sitting in someones collection of records? Surely if you are aware of Frank Wilsons work enough to buy one initially then you are aware of it's reputation...or is it a case of a copy sitting gathering dust in a basement?

THINK IT'S QUITE REMOTE THAT ANY WILL TURN UP SEING AS ALL BUT A FEW, AND I DON,T THINK ANYBODY KNOWS REALLY HOW FEW ESCAPED WHEN ALL THE DISCS WERE RECALLED BY BERRY GORDY.

BRI PINCH.

[Souljazera]

If we're talking of expensive and not rarity, then I don't think there would be too much debate over the top 3, beyond that, gets too tricky.

1. Frank Wilson - Do I Lve You - Soul

2. Don Gardner - Cheatin Kind - Sedgrick

3. Mello Souls - We Can Make It - Mello

Who agrees with this top 3 as probably the most valuable northern soul records?

The 3 rarest, well thats a different kettle of fish altogether, none of the above would rank in the top 5 rarest, as they would likely all be one offs.

these are also the BEST NORTHERN expensive records imo

expensive and rare doesnt equate with quality..a problem that the northern scene still hasnt come to terms with

[Chalky]

Do you really think there are copies still undiscovered? Sitting in someones collection of records? Surely if you are aware of Frank Wilsons work enough to buy one initially then you are aware of it's reputation...or is it a case of a copy sitting gathering dust in a basement?

A Motown collector could well have a copy, they wouldn't have to have any interest in Frank Wilson at all, it could just be a filler to them.

There's rumoured to be one in this country with a Motown collector, again rumours. Reg Bartlett was acknowledged as having one of if not the best collection of Motown, he may well have had one, who knows. I was told Berry Gordy bought his collection, dunno how true that is????

Pretty sure when Ron Murphy got his collection, through one of the pressing plant employees I believe, he said just six were pressed and later ordered to be destroyed with one copy foir Motown's files. Two are definitely known to have not been destroyed so it stands to reason that others could be out there.

[Guest Nik Mak]

There's rumoured to be one in this country with a Motown collector, again rumours. Reg Bartlett was acknowledged as having one of if not the best collection of Motown, he may well have had one, who knows. I was told Berry Gordy bought his collection, dunno how true that is????

Pretty sure when Ron Murphy got his collection, through one of the pressing plant employees I believe, he said just six were pressed and later ordered to be destroyed with one copy foir Motown's files. Two are definitely known to have not been destroyed so it stands to reason that others could be out there.

Just to let you know there was a pressing plant in Florida that has a HUGE wall of early motown 45's as they did most of the pressing for Tamla back in the 60's right up to @ 1972. I had some stuff pressed there in 1995 when I lived in Florida and clocked the wall in the bosses office. They wouldn't let me anywhere near it at the time cos the boss was away on holiday & I never got to go back. They said they had copies of EVERYTHING!

Edited September 10, 2008 by Nik Mak

[Simsy]

I must admit the Frank Wilson thing is a double edged sword...yes if you had a copy you would be over the moon...but you can't escape the fact it is the most recognised Northern Record in the world...would you really want to play it out?

If you had an original? I would think yes and I would think that would go for everyone. And remember on the northern soul scene, everyone is a DJ.

[Guest moggy]

May be a bit of a plank question

But with the sort of money quoted on the FW (25k) in Tim Browns guide, if a third copy were to show up, I am assuming someone somewhere would pay that sort of money !

So, and here is my question

why has no one attempted to counterfeit these big ticket items

we do live in age were anything seems possible, and with the knowhow and a credible story who knows

or am I being a little taboo

Just something that intruiges me, we have numbers, label scans, loads of info these days

What do you think

[solidhit]

expensive and rare doesnt equate with quality..a problem that the northern scene still hasnt come to terms with

Very true. Just how rare are these? Are there dozens of any of them? How many are one-offs? two-offs? are any of them "common" compared to their potential selling price (50 copies of more)?

1. charles brandy cant get enough blue cat
   
2. magnetics lady in green bonnie
   
3. mark iv if you can tell me something good brite lite
   
4. empires you're on top candi
   
5. fred & turbines bernadine cenco
   
6. willie dee it looks like rain chi heat
   
7. topics have your fun dream
   
8. precisions sugar aint sweet drew
   
9. tranells blessed with a love flo jo
   
10. lynn varnado wash and wear love gator
    
11. margaret little love finds a way genebro
    
12. kell osborne law against a heartbreaker highland
    
13. jimmy delphs dancing a hole in the world karen
    
14. junior mccants try me for your new love king
    
15. mello souls we can make it mello
    
16. devotions do do de bop nation
    
17. sonny fishback heartbreaking man out a site
    
18. tsu toronados 1000 wonders ovide
    
19. ernestine eady lets talk it over phil la of soul
    
20. bobby rich there's a girl somewhere for me sambea
    
21. dennis edwards johnny on the spot international soulsville
    
22. len jewell bettin on love teri de
    
23. john & wierdest cant get over these memories tie
    
24. two plus two look around velgo
    
25. andantes like a nightmare vip
    
26. springers nothings too good for my baby wale
    
27. ivories please stay wand
    
28. walter wilson love keeps me crying wand
    
29. saints I'll let you slide wigwam
    
30. classics so glad that I found you yan g
    

[Koolkat]

Where does Joe Matthews sit in all this?........ Koolkat copies......Demos vs Issues... How many copies etc?

[Chalky]

Just to let you know there was a pressing plant in Florida that has a HUGE wall of early motown 45's as they did most of the pressing for Tamla back in the 60's right up to @ 1972. I had some stuff pressed there in 1995 when I lived in Florida and clocked the wall in the bosses office. They wouldn't let me anywhere near it at the time cos the boss was away on holiday & I never got to go back. They said they had copies of EVERYTHING!

Yes maybe they have but FW never got to the pressing stage for issue, they would have pressed the issues ready for distribution. The demos were done at one plant only. Will try and find the story Ron Murphy told.

[Chalky]

If you had an original? I would think yes and I would think that would go for everyone. And remember on the northern soul scene, everyone is a DJ.

I'd have a carver done and say I'd got the original

If I had a copy its not a record I'd feature in my sets, unless I was asked to do an oldies set in particular.

I can remember being a Fleetwood few years ago and some DJ from Preston was on playing FW on the UK issue and Kenny was stood at the side of him

[Guest Nik Mak]

Yes maybe they have but FW never got to the pressing stage for issue, they would have pressed the issues ready for distribution. The demos were done at one plant only. Will try and find the story Ron Murphy told.

Yes, but I'm wondering if this plant was THE ONE that did all the demos cos the wall I looked at had loads of demos on it! & it's only a small place with only two or three old style pressing machines. Just found out it's still there but changed hands in 2000. The guy who owned it way back was called Dick (I think). Gonna go back thru my paper work from back in the 90's to see if I can get more info.

[Chalky]

Yes, but I'm wondering if this plant was THE ONE that did all the demos cos the wall I looked at had loads of demos on it! & it's only a small place with only two or three old style pressing machines. Just found out it's still there but changed hands in 2000. The guy who owned it way back was called Dick (I think). Gonna go back thru my paper work from back in the 90's to see if I can get more info.

No, pretty certain it was a Detroit pressing plant where the two known copies came from.

[Guest carl_p]

Greetings everyone! I remember Ron Murphy telling the story. He told it often and the story never changed. Ron said owosso pressed 6 copies of each record for basically tryout and customer evaluation. i believe 4 copies were sent to motown. Ron got his copy of Frank Wilson i believe from the daugters of the label designer(?) at owosso. he would bring one copy of everything home at the time. Ron said the daughters had sold a couple of boxes already and Ron surmised there was probably a copy of the patrice holloway in there which ron never acuired. I think the 3 rarest motown are the Frank Wilson (2 copies maybe 3), the Patrice Holloway (3 copies), and the Charters (2 copies?). I know of 5-6 copies of the Barrett Strong "let's rock" have surfaced. but i also wonder about the labrenda ben that was pressed on the motown label? i suspect that there is only a handful of copies of that one. also motown generally cut acetates of these prior to pressing so it's very possible there are copies of those on acetate still out there.

[Chalky]

Greetings everyone! I remember Ron Murphy telling the story. He told it often and the story never changed. Ron said owosso pressed 6 copies of each record for basically tryout and customer evaluation. i believe 4 copies were sent to motown. Ron got his copy of Frank Wilson i believe from the daugters of the label designer(?) at owosso. he would bring one copy of everything home at the time. Ron said the daughters had sold a couple of boxes already and Ron surmised there was probably a copy of the patrice holloway in there which ron never acuired. I think the 3 rarest motown are the Frank Wilson (2 copies maybe 3), the Patrice Holloway (3 copies), and the Charters (2 copies?). I know of 5-6 copies of the Barrett Strong "let's rock" have surfaced. but i also wonder about the labrenda ben that was pressed on the motown label? i suspect that there is only a handful of copies of that one. also motown generally cut acetates of these prior to pressing so it's very possible there are copies of those on acetate still out there.

Cheers for clearing that up Carl, that is the story I sort of remember.

[Ady Croasdell]

Very true. Just how rare are these? Are there dozens of any of them? How many are one-offs? two-offs? are any of them "common" compared to their potential selling price (50 copies of more)?

1. charles brandy cant get enough blue cat
   
2. magnetics lady in green bonnie
   
3. mark iv if you can tell me something good brite lite
   
4. empires you're on top candi
   
5. fred & turbines bernadine cenco
   
6. willie dee it looks like rain chi heat
   
7. topics have your fun dream
   
8. precisions sugar aint sweet drew
   
9. tranells blessed with a love flo jo
   
10. lynn varnado wash and wear love gator
    
11. margaret little love finds a way genebro
    
12. kell osborne law against a heartbreaker highland
    
13. jimmy delphs dancing a hole in the world karen
    
14. junior mccants try me for your new love king
    
15. mello souls we can make it mello
    
16. devotions do do de bop nation
    
17. sonny fishback heartbreaking man out a site
    
18. tsu toronados 1000 wonders ovide
    
19. ernestine eady lets talk it over phil la of soul
    
20. bobby rich there's a girl somewhere for me sambea
    
21. dennis edwards johnny on the spot international soulsville
    
22. len jewell bettin on love teri de
    
23. john & wierdest cant get over these memories tie
    
24. two plus two look around velgo
    
25. andantes like a nightmare vip
    
26. springers nothings too good for my baby wale
    
27. ivories please stay wand
    
28. walter wilson love keeps me crying wand
    
29. saints I'll let you slide wigwam
    
30. classics so glad that I found you yan g
    

I had 3 John and the wierdest and left two more at the same shop because the bloke was a nutter.

[boba]

Very true. Just how rare are these? Are there dozens of any of them? How many are one-offs? two-offs? are any of them "common" compared to their potential selling price (50 copies of more)?

1. charles brandy cant get enough blue cat
   
2. magnetics lady in green bonnie
   
3. mark iv if you can tell me something good brite lite
   
4. empires you're on top candi
   
5. fred & turbines bernadine cenco
   
6. willie dee it looks like rain chi heat
   
7. topics have your fun dream
   
8. precisions sugar aint sweet drew
   
9. tranells blessed with a love flo jo
   
10. lynn varnado wash and wear love gator
    
11. margaret little love finds a way genebro
    
12. kell osborne law against a heartbreaker highland
    
13. jimmy delphs dancing a hole in the world karen
    
14. junior mccants try me for your new love king
    
15. mello souls we can make it mello
    
16. devotions do do de bop nation
    
17. sonny fishback heartbreaking man out a site
    
18. tsu toronados 1000 wonders ovide
    
19. ernestine eady lets talk it over phil la of soul
    
20. bobby rich there's a girl somewhere for me sambea
    
21. dennis edwards johnny on the spot international soulsville
    
22. len jewell bettin on love teri de
    
23. john & wierdest cant get over these memories tie
    
24. two plus two look around velgo
    
25. andantes like a nightmare vip
    
26. springers nothings too good for my baby wale
    
27. ivories please stay wand
    
28. walter wilson love keeps me crying wand
    
29. saints I'll let you slide wigwam
    
30. classics so glad that I found you yan g
    

I would say the willie dee record is common relative to the other ones on the list, maybe doesn't belong in a top 30. For Chicago records, I would say the deltours is rarer than, say, the topics. That is a pretty good list though.

[boba]

I would say the willie dee record is common relative to the other ones on the list, maybe doesn't belong in a top 30. For Chicago records, I would say the deltours is rarer than, say, the topics. That is a pretty good list though.

also, I think maybe the tsu tornadoes, while hard, shouldn't be in the top 30, at least based on how many times I've seen it vs. other ones on the list, plus its value is less.

[solidhit]

also, I think maybe the tsu tornadoes, while hard, shouldn't be in the top 30, at least based on how many times I've seen it vs. other ones on the list, plus its value is less.

Wasn't meant to be a top 30. But I can't seem to copy and paste a list from Excel into this forum because it all ends up jumbled together. I had to pick the "insert list" option which automatically numbered each line.

This was just a list of records that I think are hard to come by. I purposely chose some that I have seen for sale but don't own, and others that I personally own but have never seen for sale.