Price Guides

[Guest]

Hi All,

Which in your opinion is the best of the available price guides to get. I've got JM's 4th edition but have just noticed that Mr Brown's new one contains a bootleg guide aswell. Does anyone know how comprehensive this is

Thanks in advance

Regards

Ian

[Headsy]

I prefer JM's cos it is so much better presented, great for B side info which TB's does not.

ignore prices cos they are very seldom what you can buy for when out and about.

I get better info talking to sellers at venues anyway , some good people about who help me buy stuff,

some not so good mind............ £30, will you take £25 ? no £28 is best I can do

[Soul-slider]

I managed to get Tim's book Sunday as my mate went up to Manchester to see him and brought one back for me. The prices in Tim's are well DOWN on John Manship's.......I'll take Tim's prices anyday!!!!

I just hope those Yanks buy Tim's book!

No 'B' sides is a downside in my opinion as you do sometimes see lists (from non-soul sellers who aint got a clue what they're selling) without the label number and listed as the other side so it can be hard work.

The bootleg section is quick and straight to the point, easy to understand.

[Guest]

The prices in Tim's are well DOWN on John Manship's.......I'll take Tim's prices anyday!!!!

I just hope those Yanks buy Tim's book!

Thats why these dealers brought out the price guides because the USA dealers did not know the prices and where selling things to cheap on the internet.

The UK dealers where being undercut so had to do something to wise up the USA dealers.

It was clever to get the UK collectors to pay for this!

[Soul-slider]

The UK dealers where being undercut so had to do something to wise up the USA dealers.

It was clever to get the UK collectors to pay for this!

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

Well as much as John Manship and Tim Brown doing books

what about rare record price guide for Northern soul records they include a very good selection amongst the pop and rock and other genres. It does a good job even including DJ prices amongst them

[Baz Atkinson]

Not seen Tims recent one,will check it out,JMS last one is superb imho,although the yanks swear by these quides we know the market as to a certain extent we create it!!What i like about Manships is the latin and funk and group soul,overall it is very comprehensive indeed!! At last years Austin record fair the us dealers each had both quides did not stop them considering offers however lol.The truth lies somewhere in the middle usually lol,it will be very interesting to see Johns next quide because literally thousands of them records inbetween ie the ones up to £100 quid have been going for pennies,will this be reflected in the quide?

At the end of the day these are just quides and the primevall forces of the market usually spell the real truth ie WHAT WILL YOU TAKE FOR THIS!!!!!

BAZ A

[boba]

What?

I thought maybe he was referring to the osborne guide and just called it "rare record price guide"?

[Guest]

Not seen Tims recent one,will check it out,JMS last one is superb imho,although the yanks swear by these quides we know the market as to a certain extent we create it!!What i like about Manships is the latin and funk and group soul,overall it is very comprehensive indeed!! At last years Austin record fair the us dealers each had both quides did not stop them considering offers however lol.The truth lies somewhere in the middle usually lol,it will be very interesting to see Johns next quide because literally thousands of them records inbetween ie the ones up to £100 quid have been going for pennies,will this be reflected in the quide?

At the end of the day these are just quides and the primevall forces of the market usually spell the real truth ie WHAT WILL YOU TAKE FOR THIS!!!!!

BAZ A

Baz,

Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately other people not achieving near or over book prices, does no affect the Manship guide prices whatsoever. All guide prices are calculated on, what we sell the records for or expect to. We don't bother we E-bay because little is achieving even near-value, and that's not just records. I talk to antique dealer friends who have given up on E-bay because they too are not achieving anywhere near their considered value on their offerings, it's the same with other collectables too.

But having said that there has been many price drops from PG 4, also many price rises. Every price reflects our market, that's why it's called a Manship guide.

As we retain definitive data on every sale we make, we feel prices are a reasonable guide to go on, but are not cast in stone, collector/dealers must come up with their own valuation, using any guide they wish to.

But if you have a guide with Bobby Lee Timberlake on Mirwood & The Inticers on Baby Luv listed @ the same value then I consider the guide ill-conceived and would not take it seriously. It's a guide at the end of the day, not a bible but prices have to be "in the ball park".

I buy the majority of my records face to face in the USA @ 50% of the guide of value but in USA DOLLARS. ie £100 record = $50.00. Most USA dealers are realistic and price to sell and are glad of the business. I just bought the most amazing collection in California priced exactly as listed above, Records not in the guide were $3.00 each.

The next guide edition five is totally awesome.. over 80,000 titles 700 pages thick. Every listing with A+B sides, plus we have a "work in progress" to give a genre to BOTH sides. And I have enlisted a couple of experts in genres I'm not as "clued" as they are.

More importantly, every 45 that have been REPRO'D using the original label name, has a definative matrix description under the listing line + a full colour scan.

It is by far and away the best work we have ever done, and I do work on it every day and have done for the last 3 years, tweeking, changing and adding.

Baz PM me your address I'll make sure you get the first copy complimentory of course I would value your opinion on it.

Thanks

John

[Dave Rimmer]

I'll make sure you get the first copy complimentory of course

Thanks

John

Well I think your guide is super duper, out of this world, essential, brilliant, awesome, and magnificent, and just waiting to fill a space on my bookshelf alongside the other copies John !

What's happening to the second copy ????

Seriously, when's it due out John ?

[Guest Brett F]

I think the guide books are just great to browse, i have Johns first edition (well worn), plus the bootleg guide, but i'll be buying both Tim Browns and Mr Manships latest versions. The looks of complete disdain i get whilst i spend untold time just thumbing through these pages, is not unlike those given to a village idiot in an Irish novel.

Brilliant stuff gentlemen.

Brett Franklin

[Guest]

Well I think your guide is super duper, out of this world, essential, brilliant, awesome, and magnificent, and just waiting to fill a space on my bookshelf alongside the other copies John !

What's happening to the second copy ????

Seriously, when's it due out John ?

It's an inch away from release, it depends on our printers schedule as to when it hits the streets. As from today we shall be taking "advance" orders on it.

And of course Mr. Rimmer you were already on my list for a COMP COPY.

[Chalky]

The next guide edition five is totally awesome.. over 80,000 titles 700 pages thick. Every listing with A+B sides, plus we have a "work in progress" to give a genre to BOTH sides. And I have enlisted a couple of experts in genres I'm not as "clued" as they are.

More importantly, every 45 that have been REPRO'D using the original label name, has a definative matrix description under the listing line + a full colour scan.

It is by far and away the best work we have ever done, and I do work on it every day and have done for the last 3 years, tweeking, changing and adding.

Baz PM me your address I'll make sure you get the first copy complimentory of course I would value your opinion on it.

Thanks

John

Sounds like a must have for the book shelf John. When you say "repro'd" do you mean boot? or are you issuing a new boot guide as well? I know you said it was in progress.

I buy all the guides but treat them for what they are, guides. They are fantastic for reference too. If ever I'm unsure of a price, i'll ask a couple of mates or ask on here or the Rare Soul Forum.

If you aren't too bothered about the prices then the R&B Indies are fantastic reference books as well as the prices guides.

[Guest]

Sounds like a must have for the book shelf John. When you say "repro'd" do you mean boot? or are you issuing a new boot guide as well? I know you said it was in progress.

I buy all the guides but treat them for what they are, guides. They are fantastic for reference too. If ever I'm unsure of a price, i'll ask a couple of mates or ask on here or the Rare Soul Forum.

If you aren't too bothered about the prices then the R&B Indies are fantastic reference books as well as the prices guides.

"When you say "repro'd" do you mean boot?"

By repro we mean, BOOTLEG, COUNTERFEIT, 2nd. Press etc etc etc. anything that isn't the first press and may confuse any collector is fully documented.

Edited August 29, 2008 by john manship

[Pete S]

I'd like to know what possible motivation either of the authors had to make all US record sellers aware of true prices and therefore cut off the supply line of rare records to everyone else but themselves. No, I would. It's the most selfish act in the history of record collecting.

[Dave Thorley]

"When you say "repro'd" do you mean boot?"

By repro we mean, BOOTLEG, COUNTERFEIT, 2nd. Press etc etc etc. anything that isn't the first press and may confuse any collector is fully documented.

Morning John

I think price guides are what they say, a price guide. I find yours very usefull, and the best soul one out there. No one knows every thing, so on trips to the U.S. I always take it with me.

I also think it has been a good thing in the U.S. market, as many people over there have realised the value of soul 45's and so more great hard to find things have come to the surface. The only problem is when people don't see them as a guide, but as the gospel market price, same as your auctions and ebay prices. They are still only a guide, that was the price that record sold on that day and was what that person was willing to pay.

Dave

[Guest Roddy]

A question for John,

You might recall John I asked a while ago if you have ever considered putting the guide out in label order as aopposed to by artist, I wondered if you had any more thoughts on that ?

Regards

Roddy

[Baz Atkinson]

Baz,

Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately other people not achieving near or over book prices, does no affect the Manship guide prices whatsoever. All guide prices are calculated on, what we sell the records for or expect to. We don't bother we E-bay because little is achieving even near-value, and that's not just records. I talk to antique dealer friends who have given up on E-bay because they too are not achieving anywhere near their considered value on their offerings, it's the same with other collectables too.

But having said that there has been many price drops from PG 4, also many price rises. Every price reflects our market, that's why it's called a Manship guide.

As we retain definitive data on every sale we make, we feel prices are a reasonable guide to go on, but are not cast in stone, collector/dealers must come up with their own valuation, using any guide they wish to.

But if you have a guide with Bobby Lee Timberlake on Mirwood & The Inticers on Baby Luv listed @ the same value then I consider the guide ill-conceived and would not take it seriously. It's a guide at the end of the day, not a bible but prices have to be "in the ball park".

I buy the majority of my records face to face in the USA @ 50% of the guide of value but in USA DOLLARS. ie £100 record = $50.00. Most USA dealers are realistic and price to sell and are glad of the business. I just bought the most amazing collection in California priced exactly as listed above, Records not in the guide were $3.00 each.

The next guide edition five is totally awesome.. over 80,000 titles 700 pages thick. Every listing with A+B sides, plus we have a "work in progress" to give a genre to BOTH sides. And I have enlisted a couple of experts in genres I'm not as "clued" as they are.

More importantly, every 45 that have been REPRO'D using the original label name, has a definative matrix description under the listing line + a full colour scan.

It is by far and away the best work we have ever done, and I do work on it every day and have done for the last 3 years, tweeking, changing and adding.

Baz PM me your address I'll make sure you get the first copy complimentory of course I would value your opinion on it.

Thanks

John

Thats very good of you John,i will pm you and critique all constructively ,as you know I have always sang the praises mainly because I have seen the power of the thing in the us ,a trip to Val in Philly been the best working example lol,which may be to much to go into on here!!! I did start compiling my list of stuff which i had in my own collection which was not in the last quide,ofcourse more than happy to pass on!!!

Im so looking forward to this quide,just out of interest John any funk updates as per the prices that go through your hands and auctions all would be useful!!!

BAZ A

[Val (Chunky)]

Im so looking forward to this quide,just out of interest John any funk updates as per the prices that go through your hands and auctions all would be useful!!!

BAZ A

Ssshhhh!!!

[Guest]

I'd like to know what possible motivation either of the authors had to make all US record sellers aware of true prices and therefore cut off the supply line of rare records to everyone else but themselves. No, I would. It's the most selfish act in the history of record collecting.

I totally agree with you Pete, no many know, but I would never ever, in my life or the next one, have done a Price guide; if Tim Brown wasn't gonna do one "first". I don't and have never trusted his assessment of vinyl, so I opted to do one before him.

My first guide was just enough info to keep the USA guys happy and still leave 1000s for the rare-soul collectors to go at. But Tim wanted to "out do" that guide and put out a quoting "If It Ain't In Here it's NOT Northern Soul". It has escalated from there really.. My next guide #5 is incredibly comprehensive, so you will not be pleased. My apologies for the snowball affect has caused...

Imagine, if my ego decided to do a "better" guide than Simon Soussan's back the 80s.It would have served no purpose, except it seems to some, GUIDES are easy money. Which they are, if you spend more time in Zoo's, than record shops. Personally I spend every waking hour looking through vinyl, and the GUIDE works against me when I'm buying, but for me if anyone wants a trustworthy offer for whatever they have for sale...it works for me.

It was always gonna be done, so I decided, I would rather it be me...

One of life's little mistakes, but as Cornelius Brothers & Sister Rose said - "Too Late To Turn Back Now..."

Edited August 29, 2008 by john manship

[Pete S]

I totally agree with you Pete, no many know, but I would never ever, in my life or the next one, have done a Price guide; if Tim Brown wasn't gonna do one "first". I don't and have never trusted his assessmernt of vinyl, so I opted to do one before him.

My first guide was just enough info to keep the USA guys happy and still leave 1000s for the rare-soul collectors to go at. But Tim wanted to "out do" that guide and put out a quoting "If It Ain't In Here it's NOT Northern Soul". It has esculated from there really.. My next guide #5 is incredibly comprehensive, so you will not be pleased. I opologise for the snowball affect it has caused...

Imagine, if my ego decided to do a "better" guide than Simon Soussan's back the 80s.It would have served no purpose, except it seems to some, GUIDES are easy money. Which they are, if you spend more time in Zoo's, than record shops. Personnaly I spend every waking hour looking through vinyl, and the GUIDE works against me when I'm buying, but for me if anyone wants a trustworthy offer for whatever they have for sale...it works for me.

It was always gonna be done, so I decided, I would rather it be me...

One of life's little mistakes, but as Cornelius Brothers & Sister Rose said - "Too Late To Turn Back Now..."

Thanks for a very honest answer John.

[kevinsoulman]

john whats the difference between buying you're book and logging on the website and checking stuff on there,thanks.

kev

[Guest]

john whats the difference between buying you're book and logging on the website and checking stuff on there,thanks.

kev

You can't see the prices of anything that's out of stock on the site..which is maybe up to 70% of what's in guide 5 you can't see the values for.

[Guest]

A question for John,

You might recall John I asked a while ago if you have ever considered putting the guide out in label order as aopposed to by artist, I wondered if you had any more thoughts on that ?

Regards

Roddy

roddy,

No we will not be doing it in label order. Label order would look fantastic wouldn't it. But we can't justify two guides, and artist order is the way the majority expect it to be in.

I do adore looking label listings though..

[Guest Roddy]

Thanks John,

Bugger ! i may have to refile my collection then. But I agree that lable listings look better.

[Dave Rimmer]

It's an inch away from release, it depends on our printers schedule as to when it hits the streets. As from today we shall be taking "advance" orders on it.

And of course Mr. Rimmer you were already on my list for a COMP COPY.

That's very generous of you John, it was really only meant as a joke.

Cheers

[Guest Roddy]

That's very generous of you John, it was really only meant as a joke.

Cheers

If thats the case Dave I'll take it !

[Guest]

I'd like to know what possible motivation either of the authors had to make all US record sellers aware of true prices and therefore cut off the supply line of rare records to everyone else but themselves. No, I would. It's the most selfish act in the history of record collecting.

Before the internet it was in the UK dealers interest to keep the USA sellers in the dark.

But when the internet arrived the USA dealers started selling really cheap, direct to the UK collectors without the middleman being involved.

The only remedy to this was to let all the USA dealers/collectors know the true price so they would stop selling the record to cheap!

It was a very clever move to bring out these guides and get all the UK collectors to pay for it!

You can not even go to a record fair now without some Beatles Dealer getting out his rare soul price guide. All the info it took years of experience and hard work to gain, becomes no advantage anymore.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Guest

[TOAD]

its the same with the record collector guide

[Dave Abbott]

roddy,

No we will not be doing it in label order. Label order would look fantastic wouldn't it. But we can't justify two guides, and artist order is the way the majority expect it to be in.

I do adore looking label listings though..

have you thought about the book on CD in a database format so that any type of search and order can be carried out?

[Guest Roddy]

i like that idea

[Dave Rimmer]

If thats the case Dave I'll take it !

Not that much of a joke

[Dylan]

John

How about an electronic copy of your guide on say excel with each bit of info in a seperate column ?

that way you could filter, sort by artist, title, label, price whatever takes your fancy.

i'd happily pay as much for this as I would for a hard copy and you don't have the printing costs.

and while i'm at it you could give me a copy of your sales history database for coming up with the idea.

dylan

[Dylan]

have you thought about the book on CD in a database format so that any type of search and order can be carried out?

I hadn't read this when I posted. Great minds think alike....

to be honest I can't believe it hasn't been done yet.

[davidwapples]

the reason i wouldnt put the guide out on a cd etc is that it it can be easily copied , cost of reprodcing a cd or dvd is 20p or so and this will mean people will just get one copy and use a cd burner to make other copies for people , you cant photocopy the book without it costing more than the buying price.

nowadays people would be selling the guide price on a disc for a quid or so and no moneys would get to the author or publisher.

[davidwapples]

how can you say ebay is not a true value of sale prices as they are often up to date , the reason that most dealers still have alot of records in stock is that most are high priced , list them on ebay at 99p and find they sell at their current market value , its just that dealers want to make as much as possible .

you often get high prices if 2 people that really want it are bidding against each other but this happens on items you auction aswell

I buy the majority of my records face to face in the USA @ 50% of the guide of value but in USA DOLLARS. ie £100 record = $50.00 ,

well when you buy it doesnt that set the market value at that time of the record being £25 , you pay a quarter of what you think its worth and then expect some collector in the uk to pay you 4 times what you paid.

people are saying that they dont sell records , if you price them cheap enough or let them find their own value then they will sell

nowadays there are no cheap boxes of unknown at a couple of pounds as everyone has the guide and wants 10 + for anything listed in there

[Guest]

OUTRAGEOUS!!

The posting above can't possibly go unchecked, it ranks with the biggest load of righteous condescending boloney I've ever read in my life.

You must really think everyone on the scene is either an ass kisser or just plain stupid. Oh how you twist reality.

You are the one who published the first guide NOT Tim, despite giving assurances to several collectors in the US that the information you were gathering would not end in a price guide format.

At least Tim's first guide breathes some common sense into pricing. You were the one that introduced outrageous expectations on prices.

You were also the one that got greedy, and decided that you would continue to introduce a new edition every 18 months, whilst at the same time hiking the collecting inflation to even higher levels.

Don't try and say 'Guides Work Against' you too when buying, as a dealer you sell at a margin regardless of price. In fact the higher the price index on rare soul, the greater margin contributions you make (gross profit).

In addition, the publication of the Guides has seen US sellers send you consignment stock to you to sell on 'at your fantastic prices'. Another benefit and a way of reducing your working capital requirement. Tell me, when you can't sell some of their consignment stock, do you send it back, or do they just offer it you at a knock down price??? Oh yes... can really see how the guides 'Work Against' poor old You.

Regarding Zoos, what's that got to do with 'guides are easy money'. So, because Tim Brown has another passion for Zoology you begrudge him drinking from the same well as you. Well I take it from that, that you have given up fishing and watching your son play football etc???

Why don't you just admit, that your guides (and to a lesser extent Tim's) have screwed everyone over, with the exception of The US sellers and YOU.

All the other people in the UK (collectors and smaller dealers) have had to pay, for you getting richer.

THATS THE BOTTOM LINE JOHN.

Oh and another thing. To suggest that Ebay is not a realistic barometer of true value. Is based on the fact that its bringing your guides into question and critique, particularly with the Americans. Ebay is probably the truest guide to prices there is, if you take a trend average of end listing prices. I suspect the reason you dislike it is because YOU can't control it, manipulate or manage it.

Totally agree, thats a great post!

[Guest Matt Male]

John,

Would you ever, or have you ever considered not publishing a price guide alongside the listings? In #6 maybe? The guide is valuable in intself for the listings and the wealth of information. Maybe if the prices were left out we could see a return to the days when knowledge and research were an advantage for the seller.

Having said that, i suppose without the price guide alongside the listings info you might sell a lot less (especially to US dealers)?

Just a thought.

Matt

[Donkit]

Baz PM me your address I'll make sure you get the first copy complimentory of course I would value your opinion on it.

Thanks

John

[Raresoul45s]

One thing thats needs to be said regarding John & Tims books and shopping trips to the USA and anyone else's for that matter, is that once landed in the uk the stock is not all sold that day it can be tied up for years in business'es of this kind the margins have to be high otherwise your never get out of negative cash flow not to mention tax and vat.

As for the few big ticket items that get found within a consignment or trip, thats the luck of the draw no ones stopping any one else from doing it themselves and the only reason they dont do it is because they dont have the knowledge or contacts, when you've worked at it for nearly 30 years or so, you earn the right to make a good living at it and I dont begrudge either of them making a couple of quid out of me if they've done the leg work.

As for the USA dealers selling to cheap in the early days of the internet they would have realised within a couple of years the true values maybe even less, anyway no one would have been able to stop Ebay and the market place the big rise in values now is down to exposure and everyone can log on to the Bay tonight and see this in action a beat up copy of Margaret Little over £2k Tommy & Derbys, Lester Tipton, The Sweets and many more these prices are now Driven by the market and these guides are really for people who only want a reference, and then make there own judgement as whether they really want a said record. Tommy D and Madge Little dont even appear in Johns Guide so that kinda proves the point that hes not influencing the market. I've not checked lately so I stand to be corrected.

Remember all record guides are priced for records in Mint condition and thats what carrys the premium, and while i'm at it you can give John a buzz and he will give you the benefit of his knowledge as I've found out, and just for the record I barely know the bloke most of my collection has come my own endeavours, which is always the most economical way to get what you want at the price you can afford.

Just as a side issue the people who really influence values at the top end are the Djs and the dealers only react to that.

Darren.

Edited August 29, 2008 by BROWNIE

[Chalky]

E Bay not always a true barometer of prices, think most of you who say different think just cause a dealer says this there must be a hidden agenda.

E bay not necessarily driven by the market but those that dabble in e bay, many collectors don't bother with ebay much and others leaving all the time due to some of e bays policies, condition of records etc etc.

There are many items going unsold, many items selling for more than there worth in many instances, many fetching below what is the considered worth. I hear it many times from collectors that ebay isn't worth bothering wioth these days.

[Dave Abbott]

the reason i wouldnt put the guide out on a cd etc is that it it can be easily copied , cost of reprodcing a cd or dvd is 20p or so and this will mean people will just get one copy and use a cd burner to make other copies for people , you cant photocopy the book without it costing more than the buying price.

nowadays people would be selling the guide price on a disc for a quid or so and no moneys would get to the author or publisher.

Nah, Gawd bless ya; I had already thought of that....

the CD will have a transmitter in it and when anyone tries to copy it, it will send a signal out (just like in Lethal Weapon 4) and then The Boys will come scretching round the corner in a blacked out Ford Transit (just like in Lethal Weapon 4) and torch the gaff (just like in Lethal Weapon 4).

if JM can't reach to getting high explosives, flame throwers etc. Then i will go round and stick dog pooh through the culprits letter box. They wont be copying no CD's again after that, i can tell ya.

[Rushden Vic]

huh huh

Edited August 30, 2008 by tony parker

[Rushden Vic]

E Bay not always a true barometer of prices, think most of you who say different think just cause a dealer says this there must be a hidden agenda.

E bay not necessarily driven by the market but those that dabble in e bay, many collectors don't bother with ebay much and others leaving all the time due to some of e bays policies, condition of records etc etc.

There are many items going unsold, many items selling for more than there worth in many instances, many fetching below what is the considered worth. I hear it many times from collectors that ebay isn't worth bothering wioth these days.

Think ebay is still a great place to buy as a collector in the last year amongst many others ive had a HEADLINES- LUA $50 JOHNNY JAMES $100 ALLAN SISTERS $50 or maybe i,d be better buying from uk dealers as there sure to give me a better deal

[Guest]

has to be THE most depressing thread I've ever read on this Forum - completely spoiled my morning.....

MRez

[Chalky]

Think ebay is still a great place to buy as a collector in the last year amongst many others ive had a HEADLINES- LUA $50 JOHNNY JAMES $100 ALLAN SISTERS $50 or maybe i,d be better buying from uk dealers as there sure to give me a better deal

nice, still the odd bargain or three Tony, but ebay not what it was, people not bothering as much,. some not at all and ebay themselves not helping. As I said, those prices you paid just prove ebay not a true barometer of current prices/values.

Edited August 30, 2008 by chalky