Ian Levine, Motorcity, Centre City, Blackpool Mecca, And Swons

[Guest]

I independently found the J.J. Barnes "I've Seen The Light" and "Out Of My Mind" G.C. Cameron and played 'em both on the show before I knew they were your productions. Obviously there'll be plenty of gems in your catalogue that will re-emerge eventually.

Colin Curtis is now hammering the J.J. Barnes, and Terry Jones is breaking the Freda Payne.

The G.C. Cameron surprised me, because the one people are always asking for is the twelve inch of "No Need To Explain".

There are some seriously rare and undiscovered gems on Motorcity.

[Guest]

Speaking of which, how did the Sidney Barnes "Standing On Solid Ground" emerge? I hear it started naturally so I'm curious as to how that record evolved onto the Northern scene............

I have no idea whatsoever.

No-one wanted to know when I pressed the sevens up, in 2001. It took nearly six years and then went massive.

Here's a tip for you. There's a B side by Vivienne Courtland ( Sharon Dee Clarke under another name) that's mind boggling, a bit like "Sad Girl". Someone should track down a copy.

[Guest]

Hey, another 19,999 Paup-ines and you could recoup!

Ian D

That would be funny if it wasn't true.

Never mind - in 100 years time I'll be appreciated. Posthumously.

[Guest]

If this brings about a re-evaluation of much of your work, that would be no bad thing. I independently found the J.J. Barnes "I've Seen The Light" and "Out Of My Mind" G.C. Cameron and played 'em both on the show before I knew they were your productions. Obviously there'll be plenty of gems in your catalogue that will re-emerge eventually.

Like this one

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[Guest nffc]

Like this one

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[Dave]

Frances Nero is not owed one single penny.

She made far far FAR more money out of Footsteps than I did.

And "number one"??????? - don't be so obtuse.

All the Motorcity artists earned money and your coments verge on libel.

I would gladly go into further detail, but your pathetic comment "I have no opinion as I'm not really into drum synth pop music" has left me with no desire whatsoever to enter into further comment with anyone with your disgraceful and disrespectful attitude.

Goodbye to you. I have nothing else to say to you.

*Exits stage left amidst a swirl of chiffon*

[Guest Mark Holmes]

Black Americans seem to have forgotten how to write a song any more, and TOTALLY, totally forgotten if the Raphael Saadiq album is anything to judge by.

Curious about what drives a statement like that.

I listen to black american radio statons every day, and the songs I hear are well written and meaningfull.

Black American music (not including hip hop or rap) has progressed to a more laid back sweeter type of soul with an R n B flavor.

Listen to Coffee Brown, Joe, Brian McKnight. Mary J Blige all incredibly written songs.

I think it is very different to the style of music you produce but it still is very valid in the broad scope of Black American music.

[paup-ine]

Oooooh you are FABULOUS.

Please please please, can't there be more like you ??

You might also enjoy this too...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Forget-Motor-...9761&sr=8-1

Thanks Ian, I will have a look at that!

P

[paup-ine]

Hey, another 19,999 Paup-ines and you could recoup!

Ian D

God help the world!!

P

[Guest]

What a fantastic track, wonderful voice on the girl.

It's Vee McDonald. She was in the Undisputed Truth.

[Mark B]

Colin Curtis is now hammering the J.J. Barnes, and Terry Jones is breaking the Freda Payne.

The G.C. Cameron surprised me, because the one people are always asking for is the twelve inch of "No Need To Explain".

There are some seriously rare and undiscovered gems on Motorcity.

that is the omly motorcity one i have the gc cameron 12 of no need to explain.

mark

[Guest]

Curious about what drives a statement like that.

I listen to black american radio statons every day, and the songs I hear are well written and meaningfull.

Black American music (not including hip hop or rap) has progressed to a more laid back sweeter type of soul with an R n B flavor.

Listen to Coffee Brown, Joe, Brian McKnight. Mary J Blige all incredibly written songs.

I think it is very different to the style of music you produce but it still is very valid in the broad scope of Black American music.

They have forgotten how to write chords that uplift.

It all stays the same, the same four bar sequence for the verse, bridge and chorus. It's just sad.

Listen and compare Mary J. Blige or Brian McKnight to classics like "What's Going On" or "Lets Stay Together" and you'll see what I mean.

Yet Maroon Five can write great chords that uplift, (listen to "Sunday Morning"), but black music doesn't, and the song structures on Raphael Saadiq are just pitiful and non-existent.

Then listen to what Carl Dixon did. I wasn't a supporter at first, till I heard those chords on the bridge of his Spyder Turner song, "Tell Me". The chords that I assume either Dennis Coffey or Clay McMurray put in, the ones in bars four and eight of the verse, which lift his whole song - "(1) I'm crying / (2) because you /(3) let me go" /(4)GREAT CHORD.

The difference with Carl and me is that I would have used that chord as a feature, maybe with either a "doo doo doo dooop" or writing the melody to utilise the notes in that chord rather than bypass it and leave that bar instrumental, thereby wasting the one chord that lifts the song up. But it just gave me goosebumps, and sounded like what I would do myself, and what a great 1960s classic soul song would do, and what Raphael Saadiq wouldn't have a bleedin' CLUE how to do.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Ian Levine

[Guest]

that is the omly motorcity one i have the gc cameron 12 of no need to explain.

mark

It's rare now.

But if that's the only one you have, you may be missing out.

[Mark B]

It's rare now.

But if that's the only one you have, you may be missing out.

hi ian i was'nt collecting anymore when you did the motorcity stuff did'nt start buying again until 1996 Les Hare at king bee told me to buy the G C cameron one, i do have all of yor first batch of 7's though that you sent me did'nt sell standing on solid ground eevn when it was selling for £20.00.

as i have said before i really like the fifth ammendment one especially the one day nearer side have you got a clip of that one.

mark

[Glyn Williams]

Frances Nero is not owed one single penny.

She made far far FAR more money out of Footsteps than I did.

And "number one"??????? - don't be so obtuse.

All the Motorcity artists earned money and your coments verge on libel.

I would gladly go into further detail, but your pathetic comment "I have no opinion as I'm not really into drum synth pop music" has left me with no desire whatsoever to enter into further comment with anyone with your disgraceful and disrespectful attitude.

Goodbye to you. I have nothing else to say to you.

Sorry, she said it was number one in some country or other, didnt really take much notice of which one. a number 17 in the uk at a time when that means something, unlike today when 30,000 sales can make you a number one.

I was only asking a question Ian, no need for such a scathing reply. Can you actually get any further up tour own arse? last time i checked questions arent libel.

i'm sorry that my comments on 'drum synth pop music' upset you, can you tell me in all honesty that there are no drum synths on your tunes? sounds like nothing else to me. I am entitled to my own opinion as is everyone else. That's the business you are in.

There is nothing wrong with producing drum synth pop music and i'm sure it can be very lucrative - why be so defensive of what's paying your wages?. You don't really think it's soul do you?

On saying that some of my all time favorites were your tunes. Barbara pennington 'on a crowded street' almost always gives me goosebumps at high volume. It aint a soul record, but i do love that song. Nice bit of 80's old school.

I don't know why you are so instantly defensive. You are in the core business of making mass market £2.99 CD's of cover versions, mainly of old northern / motownesque type tracks. There's nothing wrong with that - we all make a living somewhere.

Where we disagree is that you believe that you can produce northern soul with a singer, a drum machine and a sequencer and make it specifically for that market. I know you're going to quote Sidney Barnes as you did earlier and that just proves the point that throw enough darts and some will get near the bullseye, go back 30 years and introduce that single and they would have called you Simon Soussan mk2. I think the nearest you got to the real northern sound was the four vandals, but correct me if i'm wrong - it was minus the drum synth and sequencer on that one?

Your contribution to the Northern Soul scene is unquestioned Ian. The mecca, all those discoveries, it just goes without saying and i dont want to take anything away from you there, you have my respect automatically. But the venom with which you defend yourself is your own worst enemy. There's no need to defend what you do - it's your living - just dont try and say it is what it's not is all.

Good luck with everything you do.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Soultime Promotions

[Guest]

i'm sorry that my comments on 'drum synth pop music' upset you, can you tell me in all honesty that there are no drum synths on your tunes?

Since I stopped using a fairlight in 1996, I can honestly tell you that there are no drum synths on anything I do.

[Guest]

There is nothing wrong with producing drum synth pop music and i'm sure it can be very lucrative - why be so defensive of what's paying your wages?. You don't really think it's soul do you?

Where we disagree is that you believe that you can produce northern soul with a singer, a drum machine and a sequencer and make it specifically for that market. I know you're going to quote Sidney Barnes as you did earlier and that just proves the point that throw enough darts and some will get near the bullseye, go back 30 years and introduce that single and they would have called you Simon Soussan mk2. I think the nearest you got to the real northern sound was the four vandals, but correct me if i'm wrong - it was minus the drum synth and sequencer on that one?

The Four Vandals was recorded in identically the same way as Sidney Barnes was.

[Guest]

Sorry, she said it was number one in some country or other, didnt really take much notice of which one.

Yes it was number one in Bizarro World.

Or maybe it was Fantasyland instead.

[Glyn Williams]

How do you think things like studio time, production and record pressing facilities are paid for? They have to be paid before any profit can be shown. And Ian has already explained the Frances Nero situation on part 1 of the thread. And she's bloody lucky someone recorded her, remind me how many records she made after Keep On Loving Me?

Yes Pete, things have to be paid for - thats the business record companies are in.

But do you know how royalties work? royalties are paid month in month out to writers, producers, composers and artists.

According to Francis she recieves no artist roytalties from Footsteps. In fact to quote "I did not make one single cent (penny?) from that recording". Now someone gets paid everytime that track is played on BBC radio or TV because the BBC have to put in individual PRS/ PPL reports. That then sets the level at which the PRS / PPL pay royalties from other ILR radio stations.

I have a friend who is a composer who writes and records music for commercials and TV trailers, themes. He gets thousands a month from the PRS/PPL/MCPS and his stuff is not played out all that much. Someone here is getting what should be going to the artist.

As for "She's bloody lucky someone recorded her" well i guess Frank Wilson, James Bounty, Jay Traynor etc etc are 'bloody lucky' that we ever listened to them in the first place and should be kissing our feet eh? what a comment to make!

Wether Frances or any other artist was 'bloody lucky' or not they did a job, performing a song and like any artist they deserve to be paid the royalty from the sales and subsequent broadcast or public performance of that song because that's the way the system works. she did record many song for Ian by the way - just check out one of the many motorcity CD's around. The fact that only one was a hit is of no consequence and probably down to the drum synth

Can I ask Ian - who get's the artist share of the monthly royalties on the songs your produced with them? - an answer to this simple question will put all the doubters at rest.

I don't particularly agree with the way copyright works - in creative, unlike any other job you do a piece of work and get paid for it for years and years afterwards. I'm actually a believer in do a job, get paid and that's it, you had your shot. but the system is the system and that's what we have to work with.

[Glyn Williams]

Since I stopped using a fairlight in 1996, I can honestly tell you that there are no drum synths on anything I do.

and the motorcity project was in .... 199?

ok, sony acid then or whatever these days. I'm sorry Ian, I do like many of the songs in fact some are really good, but the awful backing tracks of a karaoke standard just lose it for me. again, just a personal opinion and i'm sure thousands buy em.

The Four Vandals was recorded in identically the same way as Sidney Barnes was.

probarbly why ive never played it out.

Yes it was number one in Bizarro World.

Or maybe it was Fantasyland instead.

whatever it was it was a hit in the UK - ok, only number 17 but i can remember when i was a club jock playing it out a lot, then there have been the recent remixes etc - cant take anything away from it's success there can we.

Nicer responses Ian - Measured and no venom, keep it up and we'll all get along

[Guest trickbag]

looks like glyn got it wrong it wasent a uk no 1,

or across europe,is she telling pork pies,never on radio.

ricky.

[Glyn Williams]

looks like glyn got it wrong it wasent a uk no 1,

or across europe,is she telling pork pies,never on radio.

ricky.

yup, oops! just take people on trust when they tell me something

[Mark B]

yup, oops! just take people on trust when they tell me something

if she joined the PRS performing rights society then they would sort out any royalties in britain, but as it is never played on the radio and also she only sang on it ian produced and not sure if he wrote the lyrics or music but these are the higher royalty payments. as the singer she would be on the lowest payent of royalties also depends on what her contract was she may well have signed away her royalties for a one of payment,

mark

[Guest trickbag]

said she never got a penny,think if she signed a contract

then she would have got what it said on it.

so why state she got nothing, on air.

why risk lible, slander,ect.

ricky.

[Guest]

Barbara pennington 'on a crowded street' almost always gives me goosebumps at high volume. It aint a soul record, but i do love that song.

I missed answering this bit earlier.

Oooooooh you are a comedian.

IT AIN'T A SOUL RECORD ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Guest]

Now someone gets paid everytime that track is played on BBC radio or TV because the BBC have to put in individual PRS/ PPL reports. That then sets the level at which the PRS / PPL pay royalties from other ILR radio stations.

PRS is for the writers. Ivy Jo Hunter owns fifty percent of the song. I own twenty five percent. Steven Wagner owns twenty five per cent.

Frances Nero did not write it.

PPL is for the artists. If Frances is a member of PPL she will get paid her artist share direct from PPL.

If she isn't, then she won't. End of story and nothing to do with me. No-one else collects an artists share. Either the artist gets it, or, if they're not a member, the radio station is simply not charged for it in the first place. That's what non-PPL means.

[Guest]

But do you know how royalties work? royalties are paid month in month out to writers, producers, composers and artists.

You obviously DON'T KNOW yourself, if you stupidly think royalties are paid monthly anyway.

[Guest]

Post and following edited by site as it was found to break the Forum House Rules.

[Guest Paul]

Just to clear up a few points...

First of all, Francis Nero didn't write "Footsteps Following Me" so she isn't due to any public performance royalties from radio broadcasts etc or mechanical royalties from pressings or sales. Mechanical royalties are paid to publishers who will in turn account to the writers (unless they are in an unrecouped advance situation).

PRS pay out twice per annum at present, not monthly. MCPS pay publishers monthly but they collect mechanical royalties from record companies on a quarterly basis (based on sales, under AP1 agreements) or at the time of manufacture (based on pressings, under AP2 agreements).

PPL is a different story. They account to record companies and / or performers on a yearly basis, not monthly. And it's for the accounting period which has ended six months previously.

To earn anything from PPL an artist obviously needs to be a member and they need to inform PPL of all recordings they have performed on. Activity is easier to trace if recordings have been assigned an ISRC number.

I can't be sure but you may find that Motorcity or their distributors (Charly) or their licensees (Debut/Passion) may not have been members of PPL at the time. And I don't know if Francis Nero joined PPL.

I don't know what kind of deal Francis had with Ian's company, I don't know what kind of deal Ian had with his licensee, and what kind of deal they had with their licensee. But I assume Francis would have been entitled to a royalty from the producer, based on sales at dealer price or a percentage of income received by the producer from his licensees and their licensees. And, in most cases, royalties are not payable until recording costs and general expenses have been recovered and until any advance payment has been recouped. In most cases you'll find that the cost (or part of the cost) of promotional videos may also be recovered.

It's also important to note that a producer, for example, is not usually obliged to pay royalties to an artist unless he has actually received the income which is due to him.

I don't know how many copies "Footsteps" sold but let's assume it was 25,000 singles. I reckon Ian's licensee would have earned less than £10,000 and therefore he would have earned much less than that. Deduct the recording costs, general expenses and a portion of the video costs, plus any advance paid to the artist, and there isn't very much (if anything) left.

Even if you double or treble the sales figures, there isn't a huge amount of money involved.

If "Footsteps" had been a top twenty hit in the USA, for example, it would be a very different situation. People often forget how small the UK market is.

I hope this information helps.

Paul Mooney

[Glyn Williams]

Edited by site.

[Guest]

Just to clear up a few points...

First of all, Francis Nero didn't write "Footsteps Following Me" so she isn't due to any public performance royalties from radio broadcasts etc or mechanical royalties from pressings or sales. Mechanical royalties are paid to publishers who will in turn account to the writers (unless they are in an unrecouped advance situation).

PRS pay out twice per annum at present, not monthly. MCPS pay publishers monthly but they collect mechanical royalties from record companies on a quarterly basis (based on sales, under AP1 agreements) or at the time of manufacture (based on pressings, under AP2 agreements).

PPL is a different story. They account to record companies and / or performers on a yearly basis, not monthly. And it's for the accounting period which has ended six months previously.

To earn anything from PPL an artist obviously needs to be a member and they need to inform PPL of all recordings they have performed on. Activity is easier to trace if recordings have been assigned an ISRC number.

I can't be sure but you may find that Motorcity or their distributors (Charly) or their licensees (Debut/Passion) may not have been members of PPL at the time. And I don't know if Francis Nero joined PPL.

I don't know what kind of deal Francis had with Ian's company, I don't know what kind of deal Ian had with his licensee, and what kind of deal they had with their licensee. But I assume Francis would have been entitled to a royalty from the producer, based on sales at dealer price or a percentage of income received by the producer from his licensees and their licensees. And, in most cases, royalties are not payable until recording costs and general expenses have been recovered and until any advance payment has been recouped. In most cases you'll find that the cost (or part of the cost) of promotional videos may also be recovered.

It's also important to note that a producer, for example, is not usually obliged to pay royalties to an artist unless he has actually received the income which is due to him.

I don't know how many copies "Footsteps" sold but let's assume it was 25,000 singles. I reckon Ian's licensee would have earned less than £10,000 and therefore he would have earned much less than that. Deduct the recording costs, general expenses and a portion of the video costs, plus any advance paid to the artist, and there isn't very much (if anything) left.

Even if you double or treble the sales figures, there isn't a huge amount of money involved.

If "Footsteps" had been a top twenty hit in the USA, for example, it would be a very different situation. People often forget how small the UK market is.

I hope this information helps.

Paul Mooney

You are a wonderful mine of information, and always unbiased, and always 100% fair, and I am forever in your debt, and filled with respect and admiration for you, Paul.

[Guest]

Only 14 pages,this a new thread ? i've been gone too long and i'm back,any fallin's out ? Ian off too any nighters this weekend ?.

[Guest]

Post and following edited by site as it was found to break the Forum House Rules.

To Mike Hughes

I am genuinely sorry for losing my temper.

I am however not remotely sorry that I aired my thoughts to this guy, who has really really rubbed me up the wrong way, probably more than anyone else has since the thread began.

But I am sorry that my instant anger clouded my desire to respect your forum rules, and for that, and that alone, I apologise.

[Guest]

Only 14 pages,this a new thread ? i've been gone too long and i'm back,any fallin's out ? Ian off too any nighters this weekend ?.

Dear Ken

I have refrained from asking this since the thread first began, but why is there a pulled and stretched and ugly and distorted and grossly unflattering picture of me upside down in your avatar ????

[Guest]

Thanks for that Paul, very informative.

Like i said, i only know from my friend who wrote amongst other things the theme to the bbc news until they changed it - he gets cheques monthly from his agent which comprises of royalties from around the world - he got one last month which was for use of music in a trailer for scooby doo in indonesia!!. because it's all over the world i guess that might be why he gets it monthly.

Thanks for the lesson though. Personally i can't stand the prs / ppl / mcps thing - it's a drain on our business as a radio station, the charges are ridiculous seeing as it's us that builds the demand for the recordings in the first place - in fact they should pay us for promotion!!

I wasnt expecting such a diatribe on here just for asking a question to try and clear something up from the past. I expected a measured response like that Paul and I thank you.

Now i'm off outside, i could murder a fag .....

Yes, and I could murder someone who is ill informed and who jumps to wrong conclusions and willfully spreads malicious falsehoods.

[Guest]

Lets just enjoy this.

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[Dave Moore]

Dear Ken

I have refrained from asking this since the thread first began, but why is there a pulled and stretched and ugly and distorted and grossly unflattering picture of me upside down in your avatar ????

C'mon now Ken......fess up!

[Guest]

C'mon now Ken......fess up!

Yes Dave.

I'm eagerly waiting to read his reply.

I gave him several weeks before I mentioned it, hoping it would just quietly disappear, but it's still there, I regret to report.

[Mark B]

Ian

you did'nt answer my thread re the fifth ammendment single.

did you video them or have any info on them.

mark

[Rhino]

Lets just enjoy this.

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[Guest]

total and utter shite disco pop

Love you too dear.

Lots and oodles of hugs and kisses and warm fuzzy lovely sentiments to you for being so lovely and nice and kind.

[Guest]

Ian

you did'nt answer my thread re the fifth ammendment single.

did you video them or have any info on them.

mark

I never saw this thread.

It was The First Amendment, not to be confused with The Fifth Amendment.

The Fifth Amendment made "Gotcha Where I Wantcha" on a tiny blue coloured label in the 1970s, I think it was New York Groove, or New York Sound.

But The First Amendment single was an all studio recording, sang by a great Scottish singer called Chris Judge, and believe it or not, Peter Andre actually did some backing vocals on it. Everyone who came through the studio doors added a bit of backing vocals to it, a bit like Philly Cream.

There was no proper act, so no video was ever filmed.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Ian Levine

[Guest]

total and utter shite disco pop

Pearly Gates is one of The Flirtations, and was originally with The Gypsies. I can't wait to show her your kind comment.

[Eddie Hubbard]

Ian ,I found a copy of the album " Disco Soul by The Brothers " featuring " Are you ready for this " on RCA yesterday , was it first played at The Mecca , and if so , via this album or on a ' 45 to begin with ? The rest of the album is disco hits of the day Kung fu fighting , doctors orders etc .The version of " Are you ready for this " seems a lot longer on the album .Thanks for any help ,Best ,Eddie

[Guest]

total and utter shite disco pop

I guess you mean like this one, too ??????

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[Guest]

Ian ,I found a copy of the album " Disco Soul by The Brothers " featuring " Are you ready for this " on RCA yesterday , was it first played at The Mecca , and if so , via this album or on a ' 45 to begin with ? The rest of the album is disco hits of the day Kung fu fighting , doctors orders etc .The version of " Are you ready for this " seems a lot longer on the album .Thanks for any help ,Best ,Eddie

Yes it started at The Mecca and was a classic, and was on seven inch first.

Classic Warren Schatz, even though some are describing that sound from that era as, and I quote, "total and utter shite disco pop".

[Rhino]

I guess you mean like this one, too ??????

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[soulAdequateNP]

They have forgotten how to write chords that uplift.

It all stays the same, the same four bar sequence for the verse, bridge and chorus. It's just sad.

Listen and compare Mary J. Blige or Brian McKnight to classics like "What's Going On" or "Lets Stay Together" and you'll see what I mean.

I think a lot of the big acts these days have forgotten to write full stop - they just loop a sample much of the time.

EG you mentioned MJB - her biggie from not so long back "Hate It Or Love It" borrowes its backing track (tho' admittedly speeded up and enhanced) from The Trammps "Rubber Band". I imagine they can probably get away with this as they're with the label that owns the rights to the original anyway?

[Eddie Hubbard]

Yes it started at The Mecca and was a classic, and was on seven inch first.

Classic Warren Schatz, even though some are describing that sound from that era as, and I quote, "total and utter shite disco pop".

Yes Ian , and now it packs the floor at Northern Soul venues throughout the UK !! thanks for the reply ,Best ,Eddie

[Guest]

truely a quailty record in its original format, you have made a pigs ear out of a silk purse well done

Oh go away.