The Guides

[Spacehopper]

dont get me wrong i dont work for manship but i cant believe some of the prices on ebay recently for boots ! havnt theses people got the price guides especially the bootleg guide.....

last week i was watching send him back and ill forgive and forget,neither were advertised as original so i checked the guide and asked the seller about numbers in run out grooves ....both boots worth what £5-7..?...didnt see the finished prices but send him back was on £49 and ill forgive and forget was on 80 odd !!

i would have thought if you are paying this much for tunes you must have heard of johns site and therefore the guides....obviously not !

[paup-ine]

dont get me wrong i dont work for manship but i cant believe some of the prices on ebay recently for boots ! havnt theses people got the price guides especially the bootleg guide.....

last week i was watching send him back and ill forgive and forget,neither were advertised as original so i checked the guide and asked the seller about numbers in run out grooves ....both boots worth what £5-7..?...didnt see the finished prices but send him back was on £49 and ill forgive and forget was on 80 odd !!

i would have thought if you are paying this much for tunes you must have heard of johns site and therefore the guides....obviously not !

Hi,

Yes amazing what some will go for.

I think the guides are a little out of date now tho'.

P

[Guest Beeks]

I think the guides are a little out of date now tho'.

P

Ive noticed there is the odd record with a drastically different price now...for example I bought an Otis Leavill record (Nobody But You/Charlotte) which books in Manships for £40 yet was actually on Manships site a couple of weeks ago for £75!!

Edited August 13, 2008 by Beeks

[Guest moggy]

Ive noticed there is the odd record with a drastically different price now...for example I bought an Otis Leavill record which books in Manships for £40 yet was actually on Manships site a couple of weeks ago for £75!!

Dont mention guides, there like Red rag to bull to some folk on here

[Guest ruffsounds]

The thing with guides is exactly what it says (Guide) but as we all know prices do change from week to week month to month, but the guides only come out every couple of years so the only real guide is what the current market will pay for a record be it down to rarity or someone giving it plenty of plays on the scene and getting said record noticed again.

Lots of stuff thats had plays lately have rocketed in price due to it being played by certain people on the scene when in reality they are easy enough to get hold of and should not imo be going up in price that much if at all, but dont forget that some stuff also falls in price as well, so swings and roundabouts either way.

cheers Ralph

[Guest SteveJohnston]

Dont mention guides, there like Red rag to bull to some folk on here

Guides are for people that don't Know where the going

Steve J

[Guest moggy]

The thing with guides is exactly what it says (Guide) but as we all know prices do change from week to week month to month, but the guides only come out every couple of years so the only real guide is what the current market will pay for a record be it down to rarity or someone giving it plenty of plays on the scene and getting said record noticed again.

Lots of stuff thats had plays lately have rocketed in price due to it being played by certain people on the scene when in reality they are easy enough to get hold of and should not imo be going up in price that much if at all, but dont forget that some stuff also falls in price as well, so swings and roundabouts either way.

cheers Ralph

But Ralph the other side of the coin especialy in the US is the seller who buys the guide and takes the pricing policy as gospel when in reality most of these guides are vastly over priced on the items they contain, the guides are based on actual prices achieved by certain dealers some of which are crazy but hey there you go.

Would be most interesting if the dealers who haven't had a guide published, put out a book containing what they considered a guide, I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more.

Agree prices change on items due to air time at venues etc.

[Pete S]

But Ralph the other side of the coin especialy in the US is the seller who buys the guide and takes the pricing policy as gospel when in reality most of these guides are vastly over priced on the items they contain, the guides are based on actual prices achieved by certain dealers some of which are crazy but hey there you go.

Would be most interesting if the dealers who haven't had a guide published, put out a book containing what they considered a guide, I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more.

Agree prices change on items due to air time at venues etc.

Well said Moggy, absolutely 100% spot on.

[Guest ruffsounds]

We all know about the US dealers lol thats why US is the first two letters in USeless as they always have to check price guides lol, and yes it would be nice if dealers put more realistic prices on the stuff but i'm afraid that is only being done by a few whilst the rest coin it in.

Ralph

P.S. Perhaps we should start a weekly or monthly price guide on here depending on what people have paid or sold records for over the last month without it being auctioned.

[Guest Beeks]

P.S. Perhaps we should start a weekly or monthly price guide on here depending on what people have paid or sold records for over the last month without it being auctioned.

I think thats a great idea

[Pete S]

We all know about the US dealers lol thats why US is the first two letters in USeless as they always have to check price guides lol, and yes it would be nice if dealers put more realistic prices on the stuff but i'm afraid that is only being done by a few whilst the rest coin it in.

Ralph

P.S. Perhaps we should start a weekly or monthly price guide on here depending on what people have paid or sold records for over the last month without it being auctioned.

Great idea.

[Guest]

But Ralph the other side of the coin especialy in the US is the seller who buys the guide and takes the pricing policy as gospel when in reality most of these guides are vastly over priced on the items they contain, the guides are based on actual prices achieved by certain dealers some of which are crazy but hey there you go.

Would be most interesting if the dealers who haven't had a guide published, put out a book containing what they considered a guide, I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more.

Agree prices change on items due to air time at venues etc.

Moggy,

"I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more"

On that measurement that makes our guide 7.5% "over" the "other" dealers as all our prices included 17.5% VAT. That's without taking into consideration CONDITION, the no hassle return policy, next day delivery etc.

we downgrade all prices on condition, we also upgrade prices on totally MINT items.

Manship's Price Guide are OUR price and not anyone else's and should in no way influence your selling price or any other dealers selling price, just the same as no other dealers selling price influences ours in any what-so-ever. It's the individual sales data on our computer system on over 160,000 individual pieces that dictates any valuation and absolutely nothing else.

Interestingly as I type, I received a letter from a well-known collector/dealer.

Who considers Ben E. King - What can A Man - Atco is worth £70 not £15.00

But we have in stock possibly more copies than we'll ever sell in my lifetime, although £15 does seem cheap as there is only in the UK as a EP track.

He also thinks the RARE Sidney Joe Qualls is under-valued as he has one for sale @ £100 for a stock copy. What can I say? ours has sat on the site for months @ £75.00 and not sold. indicating prices can be dictated by self-interest, as he certainly didn't write to me saying the pricing were too low, before he added them to his sales box.

Boys, it's a GUIDE no a bible.

I totally agree, anyone walking around a club or listing on this forum, a box of goodies, and is NOT VAT registered, should certainly be cheaper by at least 17.5% than John Manship Records. He should also offer a no hassle 7 day return on any purchase, for any reason,guarantee.

John

Edited August 13, 2008 by john manship

[Pete S]

Moggy,

"I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more"

On that measurement that makes our guide 7.5% "over" the "other" dealers as all our prices included 17.5% VAT. That's without taking into consideration CONDITION, the no hassle return policy, next day delivery etc.

we downgrade all prices on condition, we also upgrade prices on totally MINT items.

Manship's Price Guide are OUR price and not anyone else's and should in no way influence your selling price or any other dealers selling price, just the same as no other dealers selling price influences ours in any what-so-ever. It's the individual sales data on our computer system on over 160,000 individual pieces that dictates any valuation and absolutely nothing else.

Interestingly as I type, I received a letter from a well-known collector/dealer.

Who considers Ben E. King - What can A Man - Atco is worth £70 not £15.00

But we have in stock possibly more copies than we'll ever sell in my lifetime, although £15 does seem cheap as there is only in the UK as a EP track.

He also thinks the RARE Sidney Joe Qualls is under-valued as he has one for sale @ £100 for a stock copy. What can I say? ours has sat on the site for months @ £75.00 and not sold. indicating prices can be dictated by self-interest, as he certainly didn't write to me saying the pricing were too low, before he added them to his sales box.

Boys, it's a GUIDE no a bible.

I totally agree, anyone walking around a club or listing on this forum, a box of goodies, and is NOT VAT registered, should certainly be cheaper by at least 17.5% than John Manship Records. He should also offer a no hassle 7 day return on any purchase, for any reason,guarantee.

John

The problem with the last guide is that it included auction prices, which everyone knows aren't a true reflection of the 'real' price if two people are involved in a bidding war.

[Guest]

The problem with the last guide is that it included auction prices, which everyone knows aren't a true reflection of the 'real' price if two people are involved in a bidding war.

Pete,

certainly no Auction prices will be quoted in future books, as it also can go the other way, ie: too low. You're right if two or more people are "fighting" then the price can achieve OTT but likewise one unopposed bidder, will pick up a bargain.

Auction prices will not be quoted in any future guides as they are not a true reflection of an open market, but just a reflection of that actual event.

Point, well made and taken.

John

Edited August 13, 2008 by john manship

[Guest moggy]

Moggy,

"I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more"

On that measurement that makes our guide 7.5% "over" the "other" dealers as all our prices included 17.5% VAT. That's without taking into consideration CONDITION, the no hassle return policy, next day delivery etc.

Although not quite VAT, but a number of sellers have to pay sellers fees which on ebay works out at nearly 10% of the cost of the item, I personaly don't sell at venues.

And of course condition is a majot factor, but I've sold plenty of mint items and never got anywhere near some of the prices you have achieved

I offer a next day delivery & a very good returns policy, but I still cannot get near the "Guide " prices on a lot of stuff.

All I am asking is can you not produce a guide just for sellers in the US, a bit like the ones them fookers use in car showrooms, where the book price they offer you is so low you just want to cry

[Guest]

Never understood why people get so heated about the guides. They are GUIDES and as such are very useful tools. Ralph is right about prices constantly changing.....I'm sure that John has said himself that he always revalues a record when he gets one back in stock.

Adam.

[Pete S]

Although not quite VAT, but a number of sellers have to pay sellers fees which on ebay works out at nearly 10% of the cost of the item, I personaly don't sell at venues.

And of course condition is a majot factor, but I've sold plenty of mint items and never got anywhere near some of the prices you have achieved

I offer a next day delivery & a very good returns policy, but I still cannot get near the "Guide " prices on a lot of stuff.

All I am asking is can you not produce a guide just for sellers in the US, a bit like the ones them fookers use in car showrooms, where the book price they offer you is so low you just want to cry

The reason no-one can get the prices is because a) there's less money about and the bottom end of the market has all but collapsed. This week I've sold

1 x 125 quid

1 x 100 quid

1 x 75 quid

1 x 55 quid

I've sold no 5, 10, 15 quid records.

£355 not bad for 3 days work people say, but obviously I had to pay for them in the first place, around £200, by the end of this week I may have made 200/250 profit which is about what the average wage is I think.

[Pete S]

Never understood why people get so heated about the guides. They are GUIDES and as such are very useful tools. Ralph is right about prices constantly changing.....I'm sure that John has said himself that he always revalues a record when he gets one back in stock.

Adam.

But people don't use them as guides per se, they use them as some kind of price bible!

[NEV]

Moggy,

"I would bet the vast majority of records would be priced at least 25% less maybe more"

On that measurement that makes our guide 7.5% "over" the "other" dealers as all our prices included 17.5% VAT. That's without taking into consideration CONDITION, the no hassle return policy, next day delivery etc.

we downgrade all prices on condition, we also upgrade prices on totally MINT items.

Manship's Price Guide are OUR price and not anyone else's and should in no way influence your selling price or any other dealers selling price, just the same as no other dealers selling price influences ours in any what-so-ever. It's the individual sales data on our computer system on over 160,000 individual pieces that dictates any valuation and absolutely nothing else.

Interestingly as I type, I received a letter from a well-known collector/dealer.

Who considers Ben E. King - What can A Man - Atco is worth £70 not £15.00

But we have in stock possibly more copies than we'll ever sell in my lifetime, although £15 does seem cheap as there is only in the UK as a EP track.

He also thinks the RARE Sidney Joe Qualls is under-valued as he has one for sale @ £100 for a stock copy. What can I say? ours has sat on the site for months @ £75.00 and not sold. indicating prices can be dictated by self-interest, as he certainly didn't write to me saying the pricing were too low, before he added them to his sales box.

Boys, it's a GUIDE no a bible.

I totally agree, anyone walking around a club or listing on this forum, a box of goodies, and is NOT VAT registered, should certainly be cheaper by at least 17.5% than John Manship Records. He should also offer a no hassle 7 day return on any purchase, for any reason,guarantee.

John

Hello John

Let me get this straight

You have a guy sending you a letter saying you are selling things too cheaply??

Give me his address and i'll go round and give him a slap

[Guest]

But people don't use them as guides per se, they use them as some kind of price bible!

Not the fault of the guides though is it? Just the usual problem of people being too lazy to do even the most basic of research into prices other than pick up a book and quote it. In most cases even too lazy to read the bit that says prices are for records where labels and vinyl are in M- condition.

Anyone that does use it as a bible to price their records then there are a large number of records in JMs guide that I would very happily give you the 'book price' for

Adam.

[NEV]

Ive noticed there is the odd record with a drastically different price now...for example I bought an Otis Leavill record (Nobody But You/Charlotte) which books in Manships for £40 yet was actually on Manships site a couple of weeks ago for £75!!

£15 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK BEEKS MAYBE EVEN A TENNER

[Guest moggy]

But people don't use them as guides per se, they use them as some kind of price bible!

Thats what I was trying to say

End of the day

Folk pay what they want to pay some have money some don't

I did like it in the days when somehow figures and going rates for records where just reached by two people haggling (old fooker you see)

John

I know your items and service are second to none

that realy wasn't the issue I was trying to make

[Guest Beeks]

£15 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK BEEKS MAYBE EVEN A TENNER

I paid £25 for it off e-bay

Here was me thinking id snapped up a bargain

[Mick Holdsworth]

Hello John

Give me his address and i'll go round and give him a slap

I'd rather go round and sell him some records at HIS prices

Cheers

Mick Holdsworth

https://northern-soul-records.com

https://motownsound.co.uk

[Guest Bogue]

Interestingly as I type, I received a letter from a well-known collector/dealer.

Who considers Ben E. King - What can A Man - Atco is worth £70 not £15.00

But we have in stock possibly more copies than we'll ever sell in my lifetime, although £15 does seem cheap as there is only in the UK as a EP track.

I wish you would say so on your web site then John ! It is listed as 'out of stock'.

I was looking for a copy for a while but eventually got one off ebay for that price inc del.

[Guest]

The guide that is invaluable is the bootleg one......but John we really need an updated version. I know you're working on it, any time frame in mind???

Adam.

[NEV]

I paid £25 for it off e-bay

Here was me thinking id snapped up a bargain

It is, compared to what you'd have paid for Esther Phillips version!

I happen to like Otis Leavill myself, so once again Beeks,impeccable taste

[Spacehopper]

my point wasnt really about knowing the going rate of originals or whether john was overpriced but paying big amounts for a bootleg when a £11 book can save you lots of cash and teach you what to look for....the going rate of send him back on original (on ebay at least) is up in the 80s but £50 for a boot !...

[Steve Plumb]

The guide that is invaluable is the bootleg one......but John we really need an updated version. I know you're working on it, any time frame in mind???

Adam.

I agree

Whether you were around at the time of the early bootlegs or have only recently got into collecting, this is an essential guide

Also, I've used it on occasions to 'prove' to someone that the £500 rarity that they want to sell is simply a £10 boot from the 70's!

John, you also need to tart it up so it makes a good companion on the shelves to the US & UK guides

So when's Volume 4 due Mr M?

Cheers

Steve

Edited August 13, 2008 by Steve Plumb

[Chalky]

The guide that is invaluable is the bootleg one......but John we really need an updated version. I know you're working on it, any time frame in mind???

Adam.

The new boot guide is out soon is it not?

Tim's new price guide I think has a boot guide in it too.

[Guest]

The new boot guide is out soon is it not?

Tim's new price guide I think has a boot guide in it too.

That's good, perhaps he'll be explaining within it, why he sold a Gwen & Ray - bootleg to Carl Willingham for £300.

[pikeys dog]

Interestingly as I type, I received a letter from a well-known collector/dealer.

Who considers Ben E. King - What can A Man - Atco is worth £70 not £15.00

But we have in stock possibly more copies than we'll ever sell in my lifetime, although £15 does seem cheap as there is only in the UK as a EP track.

the mans obviously a f*cktard.

[Guest]

I agree

Whether you were around at the time of the early bootlegs or have only recently got into collecting, this is an essential guide

Also, I've used it on occasions to 'prove' to someone that the £500 rarity that they want to sell is simply a £10 boot from the 70's!

John, you also need to tart it up so it makes a good companion on the shelves to the US & UK guides

So when's Volume 4 due Mr M?

Cheers

Steve

Steve,

Our new price guide #5 will be covering every detail required on BOOTLEGS that used the SAME label name as the original release the two guides become one. It's will be on the streets about 1 day after Tim Brown's guide.

john

[Guest]

I wish you would say so on your web site then John ! It is listed as 'out of stock'.

I was looking for a copy for a while but eventually got one off ebay for that price inc del.

we list records as and when I get back to that box again, it sometimes takes years and years. I'll put a couple up now @ £25 quid is that OK? We'll also change the price guide entry also, check the site now!

Edited August 13, 2008 by john manship

[Guest]

The guide that is invaluable is the bootleg one......but John we really need an updated version. I know you're working on it, any time frame in mind???

Adam.

Bootleg guide is the only guide I have ever bought. If you get lists, talk to people and watch what things go for on Ebay etc you get a more up to date idea of what things are selling for, or not selling for!

I once offered a guy in France a fair price of 120 Euro for a record. He said the price guide says its worth more and would not sell it. The thing that got to me is, the person who wrote the guide would not have paid anywhere near that price, so why should I.

[solidhit]

That's good, perhaps he'll be explaining within it, why he sold a Gwen & Ray - bootleg to Carl Willingham for £300.

What exactly is the difference between the original and the bootleg of Gwen & Ray? If I'm not mistaken, they're practically identical. I believe I have an original, but only because it looked identical to another collector's copy which he also believed to be an original. But I saw a copy for sale in the UK in a dealer's bootleg box and it looked identical also, so still none the wiser about it.

[Ted Massey]

What exactly is the difference between the original and the bootleg of Gwen & Ray? If I'm not mistaken, they're practically identical. I believe I have an original, but only because it looked identical to another collector's copy which he also believed to be an original. But I saw a copy for sale in the UK in a dealer's bootleg box and it looked identical also, so still none the wiser about it.

Mick Smith had a real one only because he bought it of Anderson who i hope would know, i compared it with one i got from a dealer who advertises on here they were almost identical but the real one had crisper printing and i think the edge of the record on the real one was square. i sent mine back and a year later the same dealer advertised it again i sent for it you guessed same bloody record. I seem to remember Butch buying one from Jim Wensiora back in late 1980's

[Md Records]

The whole price thing makes me smile, I have people telling me EVERY week that a price on a certain record in my boxes is too high or more often too low, and I'm past caring. I can't break the F***ing things up and eat them, so I sell them based on what I paid for them, incorporating knowledge I've built up over the Years, looking on t'net and taking a look at J.M.'s stuff. If John Manship starting ringing me up and telling me what price to sell my records for, I'd give a F***. Ironically, how often have people used the "cheaper than the BOOK" line to help secure a sale.

Des Parker

[funkyfeet]

dont get me wrong i dont work for manship but i cant believe some of the prices on ebay recently for boots ! havnt theses people got the price guides especially the bootleg guide.....

last week i was watching send him back and ill forgive and forget,neither were advertised as original so i checked the guide and asked the seller about numbers in run out grooves ....both boots worth what £5-7..?...didnt see the finished prices but send him back was on £49 and ill forgive and forget was on 80 odd !!

i would have thought if you are paying this much for tunes you must have heard of johns site and therefore the guides....obviously not !

MAYBE SOME PEOPLE ARN'T BOTHERED WHETHER IT'S A BOOT OR NOT, THEY JUST WANT THE RECORD COME WHAT MAY, AND HAPPY TO PAY WHAT EVER IT TAKES. PERHAPS THEY EVEN COLLECT BOOTS AND THAT'S THEIR MISSING ONE. EVERYONE HAS A REASON WHY THEY PAY WHAT THEY PAY, AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S THEIR CHOICE, SO WHY WORRY ABOUT IT, OR WORSE GET UPSET ABOUT IT.

[mischief]

i would have thought if you are paying this much for tunes you must have heard of johns site and therefore the guides....obviously not !

Tell you what I have noticed lately...

Velvets - I got to find me somebody PYE Disco Demand -

I see a cople of them sell for silly money on EBAY the other day...

I was actually surprised about that..

(Silly as in expensive)

Edited August 13, 2008 by mischief

[cloth ears]

Mick Smith had a real one only because he bought it of Anderson who i hope would know, i compared it with one i got from a dealer who advertises on here they were almost identical but the real one had crisper printing and i think the edge of the record on the real one was square. i sent mine back and a year later the same dealer advertised it again i sent for it you guessed same bloody record. I seem to remember Butch buying one from Jim Wensiora back in late 1980's

the original has a rough feel to the paper( not that very smooth stuff) i seem to remember, i may be wrong though!

[Guest]

What exactly is the difference between the original and the bootleg of Gwen & Ray? If I'm not mistaken, they're practically identical. I believe I have an original, but only because it looked identical to another collector's copy which he also believed to be an original. But I saw a copy for sale in the UK in a dealer's bootleg box and it looked identical also, so still none the wiser about it.

If your blind and had had your fingers cut off, they are nearly the same.

The original, which I've personally only had TWO copies of in my lifetime. Is made from RCA style vinyl, neat, thin, flexible with high fidelity. There are two different presses of the BOOTLEG both use replica orange Bee Bee labels but different vinyl presses types. More info will be in Guide 5.

To be fair to Tim, £300 was nearer the bootleg price, than the value of the original.

Edited August 14, 2008 by john manship

[Spacehopper]

MAYBE SOME PEOPLE ARN'T BOTHERED WHETHER IT'S A BOOT OR NOT, THEY JUST WANT THE RECORD COME WHAT MAY, AND HAPPY TO PAY WHAT EVER IT TAKES. PERHAPS THEY EVEN COLLECT BOOTS AND THAT'S THEIR MISSING ONE. EVERYONE HAS A REASON WHY THEY PAY WHAT THEY PAY, AT THE END OF THE DAY IT'S THEIR CHOICE, SO WHY WORRY ABOUT IT, OR WORSE GET UPSET ABOUT IT.

im not worried or upset !....but if they didnt care about it being a bootleg and just wanted the tune why not go to a dealer who would have sold them it for a fiver in the case of ill forgive and forget or a tenner for a brand new boot of send him back with another classic on the other side ....could have bought half a dozen more too....if they collect boots thats upto them but i still find it a little odd to pay SO much over the top, lets hope they never have/want to sell them cos theyre gonna lose a lot of money ...unless they find someone else with more money than sense/knowledge...

[Ted Massey]

the original has a rough feel to the paper( not that very smooth stuff) i seem to remember, i may be wrong though!

your right Dave

[funkyfeet]

im not worried or upset !....but if they didnt care about it being a bootleg and just wanted the tune why not go to a dealer who would have sold them it for a fiver in the case of ill forgive and forget or a tenner for a brand new boot of send him back with another classic on the other side ....could have bought half a dozen more too....if they collect boots thats upto them but i still find it a little odd to pay SO much over the top, lets hope they never have/want to sell them cos theyre gonna lose a lot of money ...unless they find someone else with more money than sense/knowledge...

It's quite clear they don't have the knowledge to go to a dealer or look else where, and as they are fetching silly money it's obviously more than one person out there as well. The majority of soul fans have little knowledge, you and I and others on here are in the minority, and I don't pretend to know everything either.

[mischief]

To be fair to Tim, £300 was nearer the bootleg price, than the value of the original.

John is this for real £300 is close to the going rate for a boot...

this must be the most expensive boot out there....

Edited August 14, 2008 by mischief

[Soul-slider]

John is this for real £300 is close to the going rate for a boot...

this must be the most expensive boot out there....

Think he means if the original is say, £800, then obviously £300 is nearer to a £20 boot!!!

[mischief]

Think he means if the original is say, £800, then obviously £300 is nearer to a £20 boot!!!

oh i get it now..... I think i'd better have an early night give me brain a rest... thanks

[Soul-slider]

oh i get it now..... I think i'd better have an early night give me brain a rest... thanks

By the way Mischief, off subject a bit, are they still saying that Bromley is is Kent? A mate of mine reckons its South London now!!! Or do I need an early night???!!!

Edited August 14, 2008 by Soul-Slider

[Steve Plumb]

If your blind and had had your fingers cut off, they are nearly the same.

Quote of the week

(and I don't mean in the context of the thread, don't want to get involved in a Timmy/Johhny debate, just a funny quote!)

Steve