Ringleaders / Four Temples

[boba]

So my friend finally talked to Vandy Lane, the last surviving member of the Ringleaders. Apparently a) he has never heard of the "Four Temples" and he specifically denied recording tracks called "all of my life" or "this is goodbye". So it's not looking like it's the same group. Were any of those acetates explicitly labeled as the Ringleaders by the studio or were there any more evidence besides the fact that it was the same record label (Toddlin town) and the group sounded similar? Thanks.

[Guest]

So my friend finally talked to Vandy Lane, the last surviving member of the Ringleaders. Apparently a) he has never heard of the "Four Temples" and he specifically denied recording tracks called "all of my life" or "this is goodbye". So it's not looking like it's the same group. Were any of those acetates explicitly labeled as the Ringleaders by the studio or were there any more evidence besides the fact that it was the same record label (Toddlin town) and the group sounded similar? Thanks.

Bob,

The Four Temples was always known to be BS, as every trick in the book was used to give the impression of "rights obtained" for CDs, which included colourful and untruthful descriptions.

Bob, surely your not expecting a member of a group to remember a singing session 40 years ago,it was of course just an hours work to him.. That is a bit like asking any of us to remember every girl we dated (I can, cause there was only two).

The two acetates were totally genuine, they had the sides "split" from the singles with unissued recordings on the flip, they are vocally the same band, but more importantly they still retained the original sleeves they were placed in.

Each sleeve was clearly marked with labels, typed and these were absolutely genuine also. Or someone is one hell of a forger..

The guy who won them on auction, Mark Dobson, inspected them and was just a happy,as I was, that they were the real-deal.

You know a guy asked me the other day, about a rare record, and I was adamant I didn't know it. He then told me he bought it from me, less than a year earlier. I know I'm losing it.. memory that is. So's everyone else and that includes band members.

PS. by the way your research is absolutely magnificent, and I full respect it. But I'm certain they are genuine and they are the Ringleaders and so has every owner who's ever had them. I have the scans do yuo want me to forward them to you.

[Guest Awake 502]

I had the pleasure of meeting Dennis Edwards many years ago, on showing him a copy of "Johnny on the spot" he was absolutely certain he never recorded it.....

[good angel]

I think there was alot of moon lighting going on back then,just think of the funk brothers in Detroit and there storys.

Kev

[Trev Thomas]

these acetates have passed through the hands of john anderson, dave thorley, john manship & now there residing with mr dobson in sunny stoke, i think everyone will agree that these 4 geezers have forgotten more about records than most people could ever hope to know, if these 4 chaps are happy with the authenticity of these discs then we can be sure that they are the real deal

[boba]

Bob,

The Four Temples was always known to be BS, as every trick in the book was used to give the impression of "rights obtained" for CDs, which included colourful and untruthful descriptions.

Bob, surely your not expecting a member of a group to remember a singing session 40 years ago,it was of course just an hours work to him.. That is a bit like asking any of us to remember every girl we dated (I can, cause there was only two).

The two acetates were totally genuine, they had the sides "split" from the singles with unissued recordings on the flip, they are vocally the same band, but more importantly they still retained the original sleeves they were placed in.

Each sleeve was clearly marked with labels, typed and these were absolutely genuine also. Or someone is one hell of a forger..

The guy who won them on auction, Mark Dobson, inspected them and was just a happy,as I was, that they were the real-deal.

You know a guy asked me the other day, about a rare record, and I was adamant I didn't know it. He then told me he bought it from me, less than a year earlier. I know I'm losing it.. memory that is. So's everyone else and that includes band members.

PS. by the way your research is absolutely magnificent, and I full respect it. But I'm certain they are genuine and they are the Ringleaders and so has every owner who's ever had them. I have the scans do yuo want me to forward them to you.

I understand that not everything everyone says is accurate and not everyone has 100% memory. I was just relaying what he said. I also was looking for info to jog his memory. Some people do remember tiny details of specific sessions they did 40 years ago and other people can't even remember the name of their hit record. I am just trying to confirm exactly what was said on the acetates. Did they specifically say "ringleaders" on them or was it on the sleeves or some other thing like a track sheet from the session? What were the other extra tracks besides "all of my life" and "this is good bye". Also, is the 4 temples thing totally made up? Didn't someone produce a scan of an acetate that said "4 temples" on it. Thanks.

One thing that is amusing to me, though, is when an artist specifically remembers something that contradicts info that collectors have made up out of thin air and then people give me the "artists don't remember anything" argument. That may be true, but their memory of what they did is more evidence than people arbitrarily deciding something is true. I am not saying that is what is happening here, I'm just saying that that has happened to me a lot when dealing with collectors.

[boba]

these acetates have passed through the hands of john anderson, dave thorley, john manship & now there residing with mr dobson in sunny stoke, i think everyone will agree that these 4 geezers have forgotten more about records than most people could ever hope to know, if these 4 chaps are happy with the authenticity of these discs then we can be sure that they are the real deal

I would be happy with the records too given that they were original recordings and great tracks. Whether or not the records are actually by the "ringleaders" though is just what I'm trying to confirm. I'm specifically asking what the acetates said, either on the label or the sleeve, as evidence that I can run by the original guy. Also, were there cases where one side of the acetate actually contained a released ringleaders track, which would be more evidence that it was the ringleaders? Thanks.

[boba]

Bob, did Vandy Lane actually listen to the 2 tracks and deny or was it just a verbal mention from you. I think JM has a valid point about artists forget stuff, but upon hearing something, its most likely going to come back to them. What was Vandy Lane's role in the group? Was he central to the set-up, or could he have just not been at that session? All that said, it wouldn't be the first time that acetates carried tracks on both sides from totally unrelated groups or sessions. Hmmm?

He did not listen to the tracks, he just heard the names. I'm not trying to get into an argument here either, I'm trying to get the actual facts of the acetates to present to him as evidence to ask further and am relaying what he said. I will hopefully get the tracks to him, he's actually in the hospital right now actually.

Related to your last question, are there other cases you can think of where studio acetates contained unrelated cuts on each side (other than cases of people reusing a blank acetate side to fake an old acetate)? Thanks.

[Guest]

I would be happy with the records too given that they were original recordings and great tracks. Whether or not the records are actually by the "ringleaders" though is just what I'm trying to confirm. I'm specifically asking what the acetates said, either on the label or the sleeve, as evidence that I can run by the original guy. Also, were there cases where one side of the acetate actually contained a released ringleaders track, which would be more evidence that it was the ringleaders? Thanks.

People have cut tracks later on the blank sides before now.

[Guest Netspeaky]

The Ringleaders "this is goodbye" is an unknown vocal group, when "All of my life" was originally booted it was booted up with J D Bryant shrine biggie on the flip side as the Ringleaders, I advised the person to bin them as his name was mud as it was and putting it out as this was silly, he then re-pressed it with "This is goodbye". It was a 450 black vinyl + 50 red vinyl run then followed by another 300 black vinyl run.

[boba]

I should not have repeated what the person said because people are taking it as some sort of attack on the authenticity of the acetates when I was just relaying information. All I am asking is for someone to tell me a) exactly what songs were on the acetates that were sold recently as ringleaders acetates and exactly what info was on them and where. Can someone please just tell me this so I can relay it to the original guy? Can someone please just give me this information? Also, netspeaky is saying that "this is goodbye" is definitely NOT the ringleaders? Thanks.

[Guest Netspeaky]

I should not have repeated what the person said because people are taking it as some sort of attack on the authenticity of the acetates when I was just relaying information. All I am asking is for someone to tell me a) exactly what songs were on the acetates that were sold recently as ringleaders acetates and exactly what info was on them and where. Can someone please just tell me this so I can relay it to the original guy? Can someone please just give me this information? Also, netspeaky is saying that "this is goodbye" is definitely NOT the ringleaders? Thanks.

My advice was find a group soul sound that not many people would know - the result was "This is Goodbye" I haven't a clue who it is, whether it was issued or not, and I can't remember if I was actually told anyway.

[Prophonics 2029]

Are The Ringleaders musicians or just a vocal group who sung over backing tracks?

and could the singer have done this as demo before the group was formed.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[boba]

Are The Ringleaders musicians or just a vocal group who sung over backing tracks?

and could the singer have done this as demo before the group was formed.

No, they were just a vocal group. I actually know the guy who played the out of tune piano on "baby what has happened", he was a mar-v-lus writer (actually a white guy) who had nothing to do with the group. Thanks to the people (especially Garethx) who emailed me detailed information, I will call the guy back and let people know how he responds to the more accurate information (for example, apparently 'this is goodbye' has nothing to do with them, as stated above). Thanks.

[Guest]

No, they were just a vocal group. I actually know the guy who played the out of tune piano on "baby what has happened", he was a mar-v-lus writer (actually a white guy) who had nothing to do with the group. Thanks to the people (especially Garethx) who emailed me detailed information, I will call the guy back and let people know how he responds to the more accurate information (for example, apparently 'this is goodbye' has nothing to do with them, as stated above). Thanks.

"This Is Goodbye" I have no idea what that is. But there was a recording by Dee & The Dynamics on UK President that has that title. And of course Harry & The Keyavas & Gary Criss have records that carry that title. I'll dig them out and have a listen

I'll send a scan of the 2 acetates to our Rarest Of The Rare section with sound later this morning. It'll be there for all to see, 2 genuine platters within the original sleeves and a soundclip. That should help..

1. Baby What Has Happened to ouer love c/w Win You Over

2. All Of My Life c/w Let's Start Over

The Four Temples bullshit has confused the whole issue.

Edited August 1, 2008 by john manship

[Guest]

Interesting thread this, whatever the truth may/may not be....all I can say is that I love the Ringleaders stuff I know, but for me personally "All of My Life" is their best tune, if indeed it was one of theirs!. (its in my current Refosoul playlist) plus "Baby what has happened?" is a classic.

Must say,If I'd recorded "All of My Life" I'm sure I'd remember, it being such a TOP track! (imho) but maybe (like someone else said) the guy questioned wasnt at that particular recording session, I dunno!

"Curious and curiouser" said Alice!

[Guest Netspeaky]

Some extra info on the boot.

When I was sent the original boot of the Ringleaders "All of my life had the title "I Haven't been lonely Anymore" b/w I Won't be coming back (J D Bryant) the guy informed me both were unknown unreleased tracks, I informed him both were well known in the UK and the J D Bryant was actually an issued Shrine 45 and if he put it out as was it was stupid and defo not the Ringleaders. Once he knew it was a Shrine track he immediately agreed to bin the disc, because he thought it would cause him problems.

I was promised the original acetate of the boot, but never received it, but I later found out that it went on ebay for $300 with the corrected titles in the description, the scan only shows the "I haven't been lonely side" so I couldn't tell what was on the actual other side, it would have been interesting to see if the Ringleaders had been amended to J D Bryant.

You can view the acetate:

https://www.popsike.com/php/detaildata.php?itemnr=4060176755

[Chalky]

Some extra info on the boot.

When I was sent the original boot of the Ringleaders "All of my life had the title "I Haven't been lonely Anymore" b/w I Won't be coming back (J D Bryant) the guy informed me both were unknown unreleased tracks, I informed him both were well known in the UK and the J D Bryant was actually an issued Shrine 45 and if he put it out as was it was stupid and defo not the Ringleaders. Once he knew it was a Shrine track he immediately agreed to bin the disc, because he thought it would cause him problems.

I was promised the original acetate of the boot, but never received it, but I later found out that it went on ebay for $300 with the corrected titles in the description, the scan only shows the "I haven't been lonely side" so I couldn't tell what was on the actual other side, it would have been interesting to see if the Ringleaders had been amended to J D Bryant.

You can view the acetate:

https://www.popsike.com/php/detaildata.php?itemnr=4060176755

I notice the end and start price the same. Was it unsold?

[Guest]

here's the scan of the original 2 Ringleaders acetates.

[Prophonics 2029]

Some extra info on the boot.

When I was sent the original boot of the Ringleaders "All of my life had the title "I Haven't been lonely Anymore" b/w I Won't be coming back (J D Bryant) the guy informed me both were unknown unreleased tracks, I informed him both were well known in the UK and the J D Bryant was actually an issued Shrine 45 and if he put it out as was it was stupid and defo not the Ringleaders. Once he knew it was a Shrine track he immediately agreed to bin the disc, because he thought it would cause him problems.

I was promised the original acetate of the boot, but never received it, but I later found out that it went on ebay for $300 with the corrected titles in the description, the scan only shows the "I haven't been lonely side" so I couldn't tell what was on the actual other side, it would have been interesting to see if the Ringleaders had been amended to J D Bryant.

You can view the acetate:

https://www.popsike.com/php/detaildata.php?itemnr=4060176755

Some people have just to much time too on there hands, fancy coming up with the notion to press these two singles on an old time acetate back to back and from the picture and print on the label it looks like Mama and Papa Giattiao or Brooklyborne talking of born they must think one must be every minuet.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[Ady Potts]

here's the scan of the original 2 Ringleaders acetates.

Hi John,

Is the "All of my life" cut at 33 & "Lets start over" at 45 like it says on the label?

[Guest]

Hi John,

Is the "All of my life" cut at 33 & "Lets start over" at 45 like it says on the label?

Yep, one track is @ 33rpm, someone in the studio wasn't concentrating, hey we've all done that one.

[boba]

Yep, one track is @ 33rpm, someone in the studio wasn't concentrating, hey we've all done that one.

I just called Vandy Lane in the hospital ... he did remember "Win you over" and "All of my life". When my friend talked to him, he must have gotten confused with both the "four temples" thing as well as the "this is goodbye" thing.

Anyways, he said that the group was from Saginaw but just came to chicago to try to get a recording deal. He said that "let's start over" made it to number 18 on the WVON charts. Aside from those two extra cuts, he said the group never recorded anything else and just went back to Saginaw and soon broke up. I asked about other groups from Saginaw, he said that the Darrells (that did that song "so tenderly") are from Saginaw (I know it says St. Louis in the label, but he specifically remembered the song) and said that LJ Reynolds and Stevie Wonder were from Saginaw. I hopefully will interview Vandy in a few weeks after he gets out of the hospital. He doesn't have copies of the acetates in case anyone was wondering...

[Prophonics 2029]

Hi Bob will you have Vandy as a guest on your radio show.

Let_s_Start_Over.mp3

Edited August 2, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[boba]

Hi Bob will you have Vandy as a guest on your show.

Is it possible after the band split the lead singer went back to try and make it big on his own.

Option 2 is that the song is by The Four Temples and tried to imitate The Rings.

I should have him on the phone on my show eventually, although I will wait until he's home as I've harassed a sick old man at the hospital enough times at this point. Thanks.

[Prophonics 2029]

Its reminding me of a Quincey episode now. Do you remember the show its being show on late night TV over hear.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[Garethx]

I just called Vandy Lane in the hospital ... he did remember "Win you over" and "All of my life". When my friend talked to him, he must have gotten confused with both the "four temples" thing as well as the "this is goodbye" thing.

Anyways, he said that the group was from Saginaw but just came to chicago to try to get a recording deal. He said that "let's start over" made it to number 18 on the WVON charts. Aside from those two extra cuts, he said the group never recorded anything else and just went back to Saginaw and soon broke up. I asked about other groups from Saginaw, he said that the Darrells (that did that song "so tenderly") are from Saginaw (I know it says St. Louis in the label, but he specifically remembered the song) and said that LJ Reynolds and Stevie Wonder were from Saginaw. I hopefully will interview Vandy in a few weeks after he gets out of the hospital. He doesn't have copies of the acetates in case anyone was wondering...

Hi Bob

It's great news that Mr Lane remembered these tracks, less good to hear that he's not well at the moment. Let's hope he makes a full recovery. I hope he got to hear how highly the groups output is regarded throughout the world.

yours in soul,

gareth

[Garethx]

As an addendum to the above I wonder if he's aware that the harmony ballad side of their M-Pac 45 is considered to be something of a classic on the LA Low Rider scene. It's been compiled on at least a couple of CDs aimed at that particular market.

[boba]

As an addendum to the above I wonder if he's aware that the harmony ballad side of their M-Pac 45 is considered to be something of a classic on the LA Low Rider scene. It's been compiled on at least a couple of CDs aimed at that particular market.

I know it was bootlegged on a couple of LA cds. I have to send him a CD, I only have the released 45 and the giattino boot with 'all of my life'. Does anyone have a recording of 'win you over' that they could send me to send to him?

[Ady Potts]

Yep, one track is @ 33rpm, someone in the studio wasn't concentrating, hey we've all done that one.

It never ceases to amaze me how these things ever managed to survive, like you say John fella wasn't concentrating, so lucky he never chucked it when he realised. Mind you, it does make you then wonder how many unreleased acetates did get chucked back at that time, bet there's been some great music lost for ever because of this.

Interesting thread, I like this kind of stuff

[Guest malayka]

He did not listen to the tracks, he just heard the names. I'm not trying to get into an argument here either, I'm trying to get the actual facts of the acetates to present to him as evidence to ask further and am relaying what he said. I will hopefully get the tracks to him, he's actually in the hospital right now actually.

Related to your last question, are there other cases you can think of where studio acetates contained unrelated cuts on each side (other than cases of people reusing a blank acetate side to fake an old acetate)? Thanks.

Hi Boba

I have about 10 Bell sound studio discs with different artist on each side. I got them from an old engineer who worked there. He told me it was common practise to cut studio discs with different artists on so they could be used for label planning meeting to hear quality control and simply decide which tracks should be released,

Replyfrom Dave T

Edited August 2, 2008 by malayka

[Guest malayka]

So my friend finally talked to Vandy Lane, the last surviving member of the Ringleaders. Apparently a) he has never heard of the "Four Temples" and he specifically denied recording tracks called "all of my life" or "this is goodbye". So it's not looking like it's the same group. Were any of those acetates explicitly labeled as the Ringleaders by the studio or were there any more evidence besides the fact that it was the same record label (Toddlin town) and the group sounded similar? Thanks.

Did he remeber recording 'Win you over' as this was on the flip of 'Baby what has happened'

[Lenny Harkins]

Some people have just to much time too on there hands, fancy coming up with the notion to press these two singles on an old time acetate back to back and from the picture and print on the label it looks like Mama and Papa Giattiao or Brooklyborne talking of born they must think one must be every minuet.

wasnt that done at ron murphys shop in detroit?

[boba]

Did he remeber recording 'Win you over' as this was on the flip of 'Baby what has happened'

yes, see my later post, I called him back with the info about the acetates and he remembered "win you over" and "all of my life". Thanks for the info about the bell sound acetates. My original post was not intended to call into question the authenticity of the acetates as somehow having a different group on each side as I originally was under the impression that there was a separate acetate (possibly as "the four temples") that had "this is goodbye" / "all of my life" on it. If he didn't remember either of those two tracks and it didn't say the ringleaders anywhere, it probably meant it wasn't the same group. I had remembered Manship having something different for auction and I wanted to get the true details on it so i could call him back. Thanks everyone for the details and especially thanks to the people who sent me win you over so I could send it to him on a CD. Thanks.