The Northern Scene

[Souljazera]

Word of the day,well yesterday actually.RETROPHOBIC.......

Superb Tony

TRY MY BEST

[Guest]

Barry

Not really a dig more just a comment

I like you have wandered the paths of despair, dragged myself from the pit of boredom induced by the same old sounds at nearly venue and sought inspiration in different genres of the scene, in the main unfruitfully.

I find that other than the late 50s & 60s stuff I now listen to ( which has always been my main sustenance ) the later music be it 70s, 80s or newer dont possess what all i can call is the feel (of course ther are always exceptions). This may be the difference in production techniques and multi track recording processes. I like to visualise a one or two room apartment with some young struggling singer/ group giving it their all because this may be their only chance, the brass section in the kitchen, the strings in the bathroom and the rest of the family doing the hand clapping etc and this is what a lot (not all ) of these records say to me and I dont get that from later recording, so I suppose I have an emotive response to the music I love rather than analysing a songs content or structure.

Yes I danced to newer stuff at wigan, I would have and did dance to the DJ introducing the records as I was so far off my tits. I even remember tap dancing and singing I've got sixpence outside one nighter at wigan

So I have become more selective on venues I attend (nighters more than soul nights as there is still a burgeoning scene of new tunes) and found new inspiration from new people I have met, chatted to and heard some fantastic sounds from. I am keener now than I have been in a long time ( although politics could drive you nuts if you let it, so I dont )

Recently this has led Mike and I to start our night where we try and play something a bit different and its a struggle but we will persevere, as like you we get great reviews

Out of interest when was the last time you attended a soul night or nighter in any way connected to "northern" soul?

Surely, it cannot be a viable position to offer social comment and question the multitude of segments (segmentation is one of the main diverging factors I believe ) that now make up this scene without having had recent observation or experience of the subject matter first hand.

It isnt like it was 30, 20 or 10 years ago, its like it is now and people need to stop looking backwards (me included) and start to look forward to see how we can reintegrate the main segments into singular venues. One of the reasons I like Middleton is that you can wander from room to room picking up elements and sounds from each without being forced to hear an hour of this or that.

There will always be niche elements to the scene and they have always existed, we should welcome their difference not chastise them for not conforming to the masses beliefs

The trip to the hundred club was my last visit there, I still blame Geoff Boardman for booking that bloody mini bus and not checking if it had a spare tyre

Yes I do still spin but dont get cramp in my thighs, well to clarify I get cramp everywhere now, so dont notice if its in my thighs or not.

You could always pay us a visit some time you know where we are

By the way Dunc is spending a fortune on records again, buying some very tasty tunes

Yes I do st

[BlueWail]

There is a small scene dedicated entirely to purely modern soul music. It seems to run along alright so I don't know why it would need to once again join up with the mainstream of the Northern soul scene in the main rooms at the big weekenders or allnighters.

I concur 100%

[Guest]

QUOTE (garethx @ Jul 24 08, 05:14 PM)

There is a small scene dedicated entirely to purely modern soul music. It seems to run along alright so I don't know why it would need to once again join up with the mainstream of the Northern soul scene in the main rooms at the big weekenders or allnighters.

I concur 100%

The modern scene as lost its way,full of boring people who wear cardy's and go to bed at 2am on fridays and saturdays and thats the nutters.

[Guest sandi]

QUOTE (garethx @ Jul 24 08, 05:14 PM)

There is a small scene dedicated entirely to purely modern soul music. It seems to run along alright so I don't know why it would need to once again join up with the mainstream of the Northern soul scene in the main rooms at the big weekenders or allnighters.

The modern scene as lost its way,full of boring people who wear cardy's and go to bed at 2am on fridays and saturdays and thats the nutters.

your right the modern scene as in some ways lost it's way, but then l'd also have to say that about the "Northern Soul scene", l dont know why that is...maybe it's just a case of "Time marches on", we aint getting any younger, on the whole in my experience the modern rooms are frequented by people who have enjoyed years of soulful music and grown with it, not forgetting the oldies that like most of us heard many years ago and they had an affect on us that like me have stayed with them all their lives, now that to me is a true love and understanding of what soul music is all about.

l divide myself at allnighters between both rooms, and l enjoy dancing my heart out to whatever at the time is being played no matter what room it's in, thats because l just love my soulful taste in music.......totally across the board, and thats as simple as it is.

As for wearing cardy's , l know the type you mean, lm glad to say l aint 1 of them, in fact after any night out, allnighter or just a 1/2am venue me and my hubby are still buzzing and carry on playing great music old and new, as many of our friends would have to agree when they also have come back to our house and enjoyed hours of like mindedness.

Sandi x

[Epic]

The modern scene as lost its way,full of boring people who wear cardy's and go to bed at 2am on fridays and saturdays and thats the nutters.

[Guest Modern Skip Tone]

You're wrong "cardy's" are SOOOOOOOOOOOO two years ago.

[Epic]

You're wrong "cardy's" are SOOOOOOOOOOOO two years ago.

Its more serious - tank tops are the norm on the North West coast modern scene, and a little further in land. .

You mean Morecambe & Gisburn - the Fylde Coast has always been more discerning.

Edited July 26, 2008 by epic

[Guest Modern Skip Tone]

You mean Morecambe & Gisburn - the Fylde Coast has always been more discerning.

Yes agree with you Epic, .......St Annes and Lytham and possible Southport included, still wearing tank tops with sleeves attached onto both arms. .

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

take away Modern music and leave it as Northern in the 60's and what happens is you all start playing the same songs over and over again like they come back again after so long

adding modern brings a few more to the sounds especially new songs that come out which have a Modern sound to it.

if you imagine no 60's and just modern or let's say would there be a modern scene without Northern i don't know it have just been a scene playing 70's and 80's soul records maybe calling a disco scene or just disco music and the odd normal soul record of the 70's and 80's

[Barry]

Sorry Barry, most of that was lost on me.

If you'd asked me in the mid 70's what I thought of Wigan I'd have given you the same answer. Therefore, hindsight has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote earlier.

Sean

Jolly good.

[Barry]

Barry

Not really a dig more just a comment

I like you have wandered the paths of despair, dragged myself from the pit of boredom induced by the same old sounds at nearly venue and sought inspiration in different genres of the scene, in the main unfruitfully.

I find that other than the late 50s & 60s stuff I now listen to ( which has always been my main sustenance ) the later music be it 70s, 80s or newer dont possess what all i can call is the feel (of course ther are always exceptions). This may be the difference in production techniques and multi track recording processes. I like to visualise a one or two room apartment with some young struggling singer/ group giving it their all because this may be their only chance, the brass section in the kitchen, the strings in the bathroom and the rest of the family doing the hand clapping etc and this is what a lot (not all ) of these records say to me and I dont get that from later recording, so I suppose I have an emotive response to the music I love rather than analysing a songs content or structure.

Yes I danced to newer stuff at wigan, I would have and did dance to the DJ introducing the records as I was so far off my tits. I even remember tap dancing and singing I've got sixpence outside one nighter at wigan

So I have become more selective on venues I attend (nighters more than soul nights as there is still a burgeoning scene of new tunes) and found new inspiration from new people I have met, chatted to and heard some fantastic sounds from. I am keener now than I have been in a long time ( although politics could drive you nuts if you let it, so I dont )

Recently this has led Mike and I to start our night where we try and play something a bit different and its a struggle but we will persevere, as like you we get great reviews

Out of interest when was the last time you attended a soul night or nighter in any way connected to "northern" soul?

Surely, it cannot be a viable position to offer social comment and question the multitude of segments (segmentation is one of the main diverging factors I believe ) that now make up this scene without having had recent observation or experience of the subject matter first hand.

It isnt like it was 30, 20 or 10 years ago, its like it is now and people need to stop looking backwards (me included) and start to look forward to see how we can reintegrate the main segments into singular venues. One of the reasons I like Middleton is that you can wander from room to room picking up elements and sounds from each without being forced to hear an hour of this or that.

There will always be niche elements to the scene and they have always existed, we should welcome their difference not chastise them for not conforming to the masses beliefs

The trip to the hundred club was my last visit there, I still blame Geoff Boardman for booking that bloody mini bus and not checking if it had a spare tyre

Yes I do still spin but dont get cramp in my thighs, well to clarify I get cramp everywhere now, so dont notice if its in my thighs or not.

You could always pay us a visit some time you know where we are

By the way Dunc is spending a fortune on records again, buying some very tasty tunes

Yes I do st

I still attend NS events up and down fairly regularly Steve, with the missus but I'm who am I? Nobody would know - unless I go to home turf, Lowton - but I got a bit sick of the wet-fish handshakes I got (Nowt worse than a Soulie gone bad it seems?).

I must say though, the thrill of NS events has, in general, gone for me - I still see the love and the need in the people that attend but the urgency isn't there anymore. I still seek the input that youth brings to music.

I still buy Northern, alongside my other deviances, but find myself these days comfortable enough not to depend on bouncing myself off the NS scene to make my purchases seem relevant, which I admit that in the past I, like most, did. Not a bad thing, it's what people do I suppose.

I am not a bloke who has ever had the luxury of a break from the routine of club-life Ste, it's always been a week in, week out thing since the Wigan days for me really, I ran a record shop for nigh 20 years after all - therefore I see myself as being fully aware of how music has developed around me, what I want from it and where I stand within the structure of things - for myself anyhow. I'm at peace these days in some respects.

The reason I haven't been to Cully Ste is due to work, I play music for money Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday - I'd love to come but work's work after all.

I have the greatest respect for yourself Ste, don't forget that, you are part of my make up and my history. Mike also has done his brothers proud in keeping the Hawkins tradition alive - he's always been solid in his musical views from being a soul baby.

Your night was always going to happen and good on you. I'm also pleased for Duncan.

As for your questioning of my credentials to pass comment on the scene Ste, please remember that in real-time on the NS scene, I was there as long, if not longer, than yourself.

We all have a lifespan on the scene don't we?

I may have, some may say, 'deserted' the Northern scene (in presence, yes) but at no point in my life have I been absent from 'a' black music scene - week in, week out.

Unlike yourself.

[Guest]

As for your questioning of my credentials to pass comment on the scene Ste, please remember that in real-time on the NS scene, I was there as long, if not longer, than yourself.

[Barry]

As for your questioning of my credentials to pass comment on the scene Ste, please remember that in real-time on the NS scene, I was there as long, if not longer, than yourself.

Anyway, about that cramp Ste!

[Guest mel brat]

There has always been a modern soul scene - people who bought Blues & Soul - Black Echoes - Black Music were into contemporary soul music - Northern Soul was only a small part of these publications.

When Blackpool Mecca dropped rare sixties music a lot of the people coming to the Highland Room came because they wanted to listen to Jazz Funk & Modern Soul/Disco. The All Dayers with acts like Roy Ayers & Crown Heights Affair appearing were always packed to the rafters....

Quite, however people seem to deliberately ignore the fact that American music underwent a whirlwind of change and variety in the 70s, and consequently there was a world of difference between the sound and rhythm of new releases being played in 1975 (Miami, New Jersey, Philly etc.) and those being spun in 1977/8 (Jazz-Funk/Disco et.al) The quite natural transition was ultimately determined by the artists and the sheer quantity of good new music available in those few years.

In addition, a large proportion (I would go so far as to say the majority) of the regular Mecca clientele during the change in emphasis toward new releases that occurred in 1974/75, had been involved with the Northern scene for some years, and were (perhaps!?), generally older than the average punter at Wigan post 1975, so were able to adopt a wider view of the scene and not become entrenched in what was or wasn't "acceptable" to dance to (or wear!)

Besides, as I've said on here before, the interest by some collectors in the more obscure new Soul imports (which was well underway from the moment new releases became more widely available outside of London C.1975), was anything but "Northern" until Sam took to playing rare seventies recordings and the waters became muddied again! Consequently, the "rare seventies" scene that evolved in the 80s has as much an affinity with Wigan in 1979/80 (Sam & Richard Searling) than with Levine's stance in 1974/5!

Naturally the early Northern Soul scene relied on 60s recordings because the 1970s were hardly a year old when the Northern Soul scene was first defined as such. Uptempo 60s soul was the dance/disco music of it's day, and until the Philly Sound et. al. got underway there wasn't really much of an alternative to Motown (other than funk) was there? We were only belatedly "discovering" the UK 60s releases that we'd missed - let alone the many hundreds of American ones which of course were only about five or six years old at the time anyway. That would be regarded as virtually a 'hot new release' nowadays!

Edited July 28, 2008 by mel brat

[Davetay]

Quite,

In addition, a large proportion (I would go so far as to say the majority) of the regular Mecca clientele during the change in emphasis toward new releases that occurred in 1974/75, had been involved with the Northern scene for some years, and were (perhaps!?), generally older than the average punter at Wigan post 1975, so were able to adopt a wider view of the scene and not become entrenched in what was or wasn't "acceptable" to dance to (or wear!)

So very true i was about 22 when the Mecca dropped the rare 60,s stuff. So alot of the Wigan regulars where 15/16 at the time, 6/7 years was a big age gap at the time. Now we are older 10/15 years dos,t seem a big differance.

It is because a was a Mecca regular that i think a like 60,s to 00,s.

P.S. I was in the Modern room at Stoke the other week, and at the Burnley all-nighter last Friday.

Edited July 28, 2008 by davetay

[jocko]

but "Northern" until Sam took to playing rare seventies recordings and the waters became muddied again! Consequently, the "rare seventies" scene that evolved in the 80s has as much an affinity with Wigan in 1979/80 (Sam & Richard Searling) than with Levine's stance in 1974/5!

Spot on with this one Mel, I obviously wasn't around in 74/75 but the Modern scene that was attached to the Northern scene until its mostly demise in mid 90's was completely based on the 79/80 start, many of us did both, although the Modern scene never really got going as a separate entity from an all nighter point of view, not sure why.

Current Modern scene, or the one that really plays new music, is probably actually getting further away from any Northern connection again, and probably appears to be the smallest it ever has. To be honest I think that is a good thing its getting seperated, as otherwise it will only be the most instant stuff that gains any favour.

[Russ Vickers]

Very well put, but I'm sure we passed that point over 20 years ago, Win.

The mid 80's 'Northern Scene' spawned scores of dreadful records that seemed to be played purely because they were rare 60's (and because they acted as a minor backlash to the more modern tunes that were hugely popular at the time).

The Northern scene was progressing nicely in the early 80's (post Wigan) not least because we saw the extinction of Pop music on playlists but because we were able to play and enjoy 'current' Soul music, without some of the nonsense that, perversely, still prevails today.

Somewhere down the line, it seems, reactionaries and revisionists tried to claim back the scene as a 'retro' or exclusively 60's scene which of course was absolute nonsense - the roots of 'Mod' and Northern Soul are steeped in progressiveness and the promotion of 'current' music, along with the discovery and promotion of unplayed or forgotten 'earlier' records.

That mid 80's - '60's only' - backlash to the outbreak of a more Soulful, varied and open approach has left its unfortunate mark on the scene even to this day in creating unfortunate and unecessary splits and divisions.

So I would dispute any claims that the Northern scene is exclusively a 60's scene. In the 60's it played exclusively 60's, of course, but as decades progressed and newer Soul records were found these would obviously find favour amongst Soul fans - and should therefore be part of the playlist.

I blame Mr M's. Until that came along there was no 'retro bias' and the main rooms in Northern venues were distinctly progressive. As I see it, progression is the true 'Northern Scene' and '60's only' retro belongs in some offshoot backroom... if at all!

Sean

Exactly.........as usual Mr Hampsey nails it perfectly.

Russ

Edited July 29, 2008 by Russ Vickers

[Guest SteveJohnston]

Exactly.........as usual Mr Hampsey nails it perfectly.

Russ

Russ

I was thinking the same when you posted this! Sean as hit the nail squarely on the head

Manchester Ritz in about 78 could have been 79 playing true across the years from 60s to right up to date soul at the all dayers was just as good as any venue going at the time IMO

Only last week i was reading some old Black Echoes from 1980 and the spat between Russ and Sam was in full flow, You had Russ one week with return fire from Sam the next filling up a near full page most weeks in the Northern section about the right to play a modern record in a Soul club! And still the same thing all these years later is dividing this music we all love,

F*^kin mind boggling it is,

Steve J

[Guest Beeks]

Russ

I was thinking the same when you posted this! Sean as hit the nail squarely on the head

Manchester Ritz in about 78 could have been 79 playing true across the years from 60s to right up to date soul at the all dayers was just as good as any venue going at the time IMO

Only last week i was reading some old Black Echoes from 1980 and the spat between Russ and Sam was in full flow, You had Russ one week with return fire from Sam the next filling up a near full page most weeks in the Northern section about the right to play a modern record in a Soul club! And still the same thing all these years later is dividing this music we all love,

F*^kin mind boggling it is,

Steve J

I love the Manchester Ritz...its such a great venue for Northern Soul

[Simon M]

QUOTE (garethx @ Jul 24 08, 05:14 PM)

There is a small scene dedicated entirely to purely modern soul music. It seems to run along alright so I don't know why it would need to once again join up with the mainstream of the Northern soul scene in the main rooms at the big weekenders or allnighters.

The modern scene as lost its way,full of boring people who wear cardy's and go to bed at 2am on fridays and saturdays and thats the nutters.

Who are you talking about Ken ?

[Guest]

I love the Manchester Ritz...its such a great venue for Northern Soul

shame they built bloody apartments all around it. I miss Searling's nights at The ritz more than I miss any other venue that isn't there anymore.

[Davetay]

shame they built bloody apartments all around it. I miss Searling's nights at The ritz more than I miss any other venue that isn't there anymore.

Ya bank hol,s will never be the same again, cause no matter where you had been 1st, always end up at the Ritz.

[Epic]

Current Modern scene, or the one that really plays new music, is probably actually getting further away from any Northern connection again, and probably appears to be the smallest it ever has. To be honest I think that is a good thing its getting seperated, as otherwise it will only be the most instant stuff that gains any favour.

[jocko]

Current Modern scene, or the one that really plays new music, is probably actually getting further away from any Northern connection again, and probably appears to be the smallest it ever has. To be honest I think that is a good thing its getting seperated, as otherwise it will only be the most instant stuff that gains any favour.

Have to disagree with you there slightly - a lot of the new "dance music" coming out of America is on small labels - not many copies pressed - sung by relatively unknown singers - but with the same producers names (who have their own recognisable style) cropping up on these tunes.

Admittedly the music isn't rare uptempo sixties soul - however the parallels with current dance music cannot be denied.

Andy I think you assume here mate, I buy lots of that stuff (although admittedly on CD these days, as have decided 12"s take too much space) and spent an awful lot of time in "real" house clubs. All I am saying is stuff like that, and the best of contemporary soul also, is inhibited by having to fit any sort of Northern connection or ideals or more importantly punters who like easy on the ear stuff. I am not saying that it shouldn't be played. I also think it stands up more than enough on its own that it doesn't need a Northern connection, (other than ageing punters like you and Pete H ) which sounds awful like a night you already run does it now?.

[Simon M]

Andy I think you assume here mate, I buy lots of that stuff (although admittedly on CD these days, as have decided 12"s take too much space) and spent an awful lot of time in "real" house clubs. All I am saying is stuff like that, and the best of contemporary soul also, is inhibited by having to fit any sort of Northern connection or ideals or more importantly punters who like easy on the ear stuff. I am not saying that it shouldn't be played. I also think it stands up more than enough on its own that it doesn't need a Northern connection, (other than ageing punters like you and Pete H ) which sounds awful like a night you already run does it now?.

Hey Jocko you dont hold back at all do ya Did Fryer let yo u in Saturday >

[Guest]

shame they built bloody apartments all around it. I miss Searling's nights at The ritz more than I miss any other venue that isn't there anymore.

I miss Sunday all dayers....(well it was in the mid 8T's....think it was Sundays or am I just going senile? ) great venue yea.

Gail x

[Epic]

Andy I think you assume here mate, I buy lots of that stuff (although admittedly on CD these days, as have decided 12"s take too much space) and spent an awful lot of time in "real" house clubs. All I am saying is stuff like that, and the best of contemporary soul also, is inhibited by having to fit any sort of Northern connection or ideals or more importantly punters who like easy on the ear stuff. I am not saying that it shouldn't be played. I also think it stands up more than enough on its own that it doesn't need a Northern connection, (other than ageing punters like you and Pete H ) which sounds awful like a night you already run does it now?.

To be honest I really have no clue what you or anybody else buys - to give you an idea of what I buy my last two vinyl purchases have been one from 2008 & one from 1976.

My point was more about the artists & producers of today having a lot in common with their counterparts from the sixties.

BTW - I am much much younger than Pete Haigh - Fact!!

[Davetay]

I miss Sunday all dayers....(well it was in the mid 8T's....think it was Sundays or am I just going senile? ) great venue yea.

Gail x

All-dayers 70,s and 80,s. All-nighters 90,s 00,s.

Yes the all-dayers where on Sundays

Edited July 29, 2008 by davetay

[Guest]

All-dayers 70,s and 80,s. All-nighters 90,s 00,s.

Yes the all-dayers where on Sundays

Thanks for that Dave....I do wonder about my memory (or lack of) these days!

[Peter99]

I like it.

[Sean Hampsey]

Russ

I was thinking the same when you posted this!

Sean as hit the nail squarely on the head

Steve J

Thanks Russ & Steve,

Thought I wouldn't be the only one who knew the score... (although I was beginning to wonder!).

Sean

[Barry]

By the way Dunc is spending a fortune on records again, buying some very tasty tunes

This sentence has kept me up at nights Ste, sorry to re-visit it, as I find it odd.

My response is...."And?"

How am I to react to it?

[Guest KEN-SOUL]

With seventies/"modern" being/having been played at the majority of venues for most of that time.

yes, and they were grudgingly danced to by the punters who remained on the floor. there were far too many rare 60's classics we all wanted to hear, to be bothered about 70's records- in the late 70's.

stop press! apparantly 70's soul guru- soul sam- is playing classic 60's soul in the shape of charles holiday-"dont lie"! click on manships auction to hear this piece of pure magic.

[BrianB]

There has always been a modern soul scene - people who bought Blues & Soul - Black Echoes - Black Music were into contemporary soul music - Northern Soul was only a small part of these publications.

When Blackpool Mecca dropped rare sixties music a lot of the people coming to the Highland Room came because they wanted to listen to Jazz Funk & Modern Soul/Disco. The All Dayers with acts like Roy Ayers & Crown Heights Affair appearing were always packed to the rafters.

The twice yearly Southport weekenders are always sell outs with many thousands of people attending. I would say less than five percent of these people have ever had any interest in Northern Soul.

I bought B&S from 70 onwards. Firstly to learn and read more about Motown, then as I got into Northern the following year, to read Dave Godin, Frank Elson, and read the adverts to see what was being played and where.

I never ever read about Funkadelic, Aretha, Soul Train, The Isle of Dogs gigs, any British artist, or anything that wasn't northern or Motown.

I was young, but not ignorant, I just knew what I wanted and I knew what I didn't want.

I haven't changed much musically. I still dislike most disco type 70ts, and just don't see how any modern record should be played at a Northern do.

However, each to his own, and I encourage diversity of all types in every arena and facet.

ATB

BB

[Guest KEN-SOUL]

Spot on with this one Mel, I obviously wasn't around in 74/75 but the Modern scene that was attached to the Northern scene until its mostly demise in mid 90's was completely based on the 79/80 start, many of us did both, although the Modern scene never really got going as a separate entity from an all nighter point of view, not sure why.

Current Modern scene, or the one that really plays new music, is probably actually getting further away from any Northern connection again, and probably appears to be the smallest it ever has. To be honest I think that is a good thing its getting seperated, as otherwise it will only be the most instant stuff that gains any favour.

i still remember the feeling... and i dont even know where your "modern soul" fits in to the whole equation. rare 60's soul, better known as northern soul.

[Guest Salford soul boy]

This crosses over perfectly without a doubt they would all come running out of the modern room if they played this in the main room at prestwich. im taking this with me to Middleton https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NXHyAjIykv8&...feature=related

i still remember the feeling... and i dont even know where your "modern soul" fits in to the whole equation. rare 60's soul, better known as northern soul.