The Northern Scene

[Guest swoz]

NEWIES ..OLDIES ..

WHERE DO'S IT BEGIN AND END.

BEEN ON THIS SCENE SINCE 1969. AND THE WORD MODERN AND NEWIE

WAS AROUND EVEN THEN. STRANGE THING IS ALL THEM NEWIES ARE NOW YOUR OLDIES.

SO LETS JUST REMEMBER TODAY'S NEWIES,

ARE TOMORROWS OLDIES.

BOTH GO HAND IN HAND.

SWO

[Simon M]

and that change was in tempo. The watered down, mid-tempo stuff is what gets overplayed at so called ATB nights now, because it's easy for the obesese or over-fortified "soulie" to shuffle along to, and that's one reason why some have moved towards 60s events.

Dave you must be thinking of crossover , as many early Modern Scene sounds were pretty much break neck in tempo

Larom Baker , Allan Harris , Motherfox ,to 1-20 Connection and Florence Trapp... all for dancers really

Edited July 24, 2008 by Simon M

[Garethx]

A point that has to be considered is the nature of modern soul music and the modern soul scene itself. At venues like Stafford and Rotherham the new modern records and newly discovered 60s sounds found a brief co-existence. By the time of late Stafford the likes of Richard Searling and Soul Sam left for a scene based largely around new releases, be they major label or independently produced items. This music sounded broadly similar to the things that had been played at the Northern Niter venues. At around that time I attended probably as many dedicated Modern Soul nights as traditional Northern allnighters.

Whiz forward a few years to the late 80s and the kind of soul that was being produced in the US was different in character: fewer releases were on 7" single for a start and CD only releases were becoming a norm. The major label releases had blanded out to try and ape the commercial juggernauts that were Luther Vandross, Freddie Jackson and Anita Baker. The indies were increasingly tinny, shoddy and suffering from miniscule recording budgets. Whereas a few years earlier I could confidently and happily buy several new releases a week, both from mail order specialists like Soul Bowl and major importers like Groove or City Sounds, by say, 1989, I was simply unhappy with the quality of a lot of the modern music I was buying.

It was precisely around this time that the Crossover phenomenon started to look very attractive to people like me: older-sounding records, forgotten spins from the Mecca etc. all had a freshness which was very appealing. Similarly the Northern scene was embracing some of these sounds at around the same time. I have clear memories of hearing records like James Phelps on Apache, The Montclairs on Arch, The Constellations, Joseph Webster, Margie Joseph on Volt being played, danced to and avidly collected on both scenes.

By this time elements of the purely modern scene had adopted the fledgling House phenomenon: the music was uptempo, solidly rhythmic and some of it was even very soulful vocally. I was buying the odd thing like Movement Soul, Michael Watford, Ron Wilson and Robert Owens. Some of it was great music but the idea that it should be played on the Northern scene just didn't seem to be on the agenda. Some may call me a dinosaur but I don't think the modern-day equivalent of those records should be either.

I've always had the utmost respect for people like Colin Curtis, who appear to have a clear vision of where this music fits into the whole scheme of the underground soul scene, but to me personally it doesn't have the textures which make it sit happily with classic Northern records, be they 60s, 70s or 80s releases.

Compared to the mid 1970s emergence of the 60s-Modern schism we now have another thirty odd years of soul music to choose from and programme in all-nighter playlists. Is it merely conservatism which prevents entire sets of new releases from featuring in the main rooms at big all-nighters and weekenders? I don't think so: I think it's because it's basically a different form of music. It has some roots in soul of the classic era, but it is a different animal. It has its own fans and it's own venues and it seems to me that this is a happy situation for both camps.

Just because the cutting edge djs of the late 70s and early 80s played brand new records it doesn't necessarily follow that this should be the case in 2008.

[Simon M]

Your probably right Gareth but theres still a few 70's and 80's dancers to be found and played , dont ya think ?

[Garethx]

Your probably right Gareth but theres still a few 70's and 80's dancers to be found and played , dont ya think ?

Absolutely, Simon. I'm thinking more of modern soul in terms of brand new releases, be they soulful house or midtempo plodders, neither of which I can see making the playlists of, for example, Andy Dyson or Butch. It's no coincidence that some of the most vibrant Northern Soul discoveries of the last few years are 1970s, funk-influenced tunes such as Ellipsis, Richard Marks, Mixed Feelings etc. To me these are classic Northern-sounding records and deserve to be as big as they are.

[Souljazera]

its all soul music at the end of the day..just that some old farts cant get with it now and hang on desperately to years gone by...what hope for the youth and the NORTHERN SCENE if they cant relate to our music in any way shape or form.

northern will become a dinosaur to die out by its own sleight of hand and internal prejudice, politics and retrophobic attitude..ie if its not old then it cant be good..

a strong emergence between collectors/dancers/punters alike who can smell the future is the only way forward.

NORTHERN SOULFURIC ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

[Modernsoulsucks]

I don't buy this justification that people dropped off cos they didn't like the 60's pop shite or the modern stuff. Think I agree with Byrney that for some it had run it's course.

I remember sitting in the record bar at Wigan on a slow night towards it's end with Butch,Tim A,Pete Lawson etc and there was no lack of interest or enjoyment cos there were still nice records to hear from both the 60's and 70's.

It was never at that time a matter of the quality of the modern stuff but more to do with the balance between the 60's and 70's. Im not great with dates but the modern 45s say in 79/80 were a whole different thing to the modern stuff played at the Mecca in '77 which did cause a split between the two camps.

Larry Houston is a soul record whilst something like "Mal", "Nice and Nasty" or "The Stranger" isn't.

I don't really see either that the modern element in the Northern scene can be considered progressive so that when the 60's backlash is referred to it comes across as reactionary. You only have to look through this site to see that a lot of the popular modern 45s played at ATB do's are just oldies cherry-picked from various stages in it's development. For instance Innersection[Mecca], Pages[Wigan] and Flight [sam and Arthur 80's].

I have no idea what the current really modern Modern scene plays so I leave it to those more informed as to whether it is possible for the two to come together as say back in 74 at the Mecca. Personally, I think the styles are too far apart, just basing that on the odd house/nu soul[or whatever it's called] track I've had a listen to on this site.

ROD

[Cunnie]

NORTHERN SOULFURIC ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

[Simon M]

Absolutely, Simon. I'm thinking more of modern soul in terms of brand new releases, be they soulful house or midtempo plodders, neither of which I can see making the playlists of, for example, Andy Dyson or Butch. It's no coincidence that some of the most vibrant Northern Soul discoveries of the last few years are 1970s, funk-influenced tunes such as Ellipsis, Richard Marks, Mixed Feelings etc. To me these are classic Northern-sounding records and deserve to be as big as they are.

Dont forget Butch plays 80's too these days .. I think if every rare soul Dj was as diverse as he is, or went some way towards it , todays scene would be better . IMO

Edited July 24, 2008 by Simon M

[Souljazera]

INDEED I DO.....cheers

[Pete S]

its all soul music at the end of the day..just that some old farts cant get with it now and hang on desperately to years gone by...what hope for the youth and the NORTHERN SCENE if they cant relate to our music in any way shape or form.

northern will become a dinosaur to die out by its own sleight of hand and internal prejudice, politics and retrophobic attitude..ie if its not old then it cant be good..

a strong emergence between collectors/dancers/punters alike who can smell the future is the only way forward.

NORTHERN SOULFURIC ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

You just don't get it do you?

SOUL and NORTHERN SOUL are two different genres of music.

Your music is sh*t, don't try to force it on people.

[Souljazera]

Dont forget Butch plays 80's too these days .. I think if every rare soul Dj was as diverse as he is, or went some way towards it , todays scene would be better . IMO

couldnt agree more simon...if house/garage was on a seven he would play that too..

[Souljazera]

You just don't get it do you?

SOUL and NORTHERN SOUL are two different genres of music.

Your music is sh*t, don't try to force it on people.

pete you clearly dont get it either

[Guest swoz]

its all soul music at the end of the day..just that some old farts cant get with it now and hang on desperately to years gone by...what hope for the youth and the NORTHERN SCENE if they cant relate to our music in any way shape or form.

northern will become a dinosaur to die out by its own sleight of hand and internal prejudice, politics and retrophobic attitude..ie if its not old then it cant be good..

a strong emergence between collectors/dancers/punters alike who can smell the future is the only way forward.

NORTHERN SOULFURIC ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

OUCH HOPE THAT'S NOT ME, AS IV'E ALLWAYS LOVED THOSE NEWIES THAT BROKE THE MOULD AND NOW ARE CLASSED AS CLASSICS. NEWIES THAT HAVE, THAT SOMETHING DIFFERENT ARE A WELCOME BREATH OF FRESH AIR.

SWO

[Simon M]

couldnt agree more simon...if house/garage was on a seven he would play that too..

No he wont play that at all , he told me and made a funny face

ps. He also wants a word with Cunnie hahahahah

Edited July 24, 2008 by Simon M

[Pete S]

pete you clearly dont get it either

I don't like it when people have to resort to name calling just because others have a different opinion that's all.

Also I am in the worst mood I've ever been in on here. I think I;d better go light some joss sticks or something.

[Garethx]

its all soul music at the end of the day..just that some old farts cant get with it now and hang on desperately to years gone by...what hope for the youth and the NORTHERN SCENE if they cant relate to our music in any way shape or form.

northern will become a dinosaur to die out by its own sleight of hand and internal prejudice, politics and retrophobic attitude..ie if its not old then it cant be good..

a strong emergence between collectors/dancers/punters alike who can smell the future is the only way forward.

NORTHERN SOULFURIC ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!

I respect your point of view Tony, like I said I have a great deal of respect for the likes of Colin Curtis who can see a trail which leads from The Wheel, through The Torch, Mecca, Stafford etc., right up to the present and his playlists of new releases.

But regarding your point about getting young people interested in (for want of a better term) the Rare Soul scene: I just don't see that happening and I don't see a reason why it should happen through playing brand new music. The aspects of the scene which will appeal to these new converts will be precisely those which make it a different experience from mainstream clubbing. I don't agree with Trouble on everything, but this is a point he seems to understand very well from a promoters' point of view. For want of sounding like a twat there's a lot about the Northern scene which is still attractive to outsiders. It's esoteric, outsider music. At its best it's really exciting and memorable in a way which a lot of nu soul simply isn't.

If a hypothetical twenty-something deejay playing exclusively soulful house were put on at Stoke Kings Hall or Lifeline would that lead to the venue being over-run by teenagers who make a conscious decision to listen to those records in a dusty northern ballroom rather than the environment in which they currently listen to them? That's if teenagers even listen to this type of record: I get the feeling that the natural audience for that kind of music are largely in their thirties and above.

The young people you see at venues up and down this country largely seem to me to be mod-influenced in their appearance and outlook: they are more likely to be into 50s and 60s R&B than modern/nu/Y2K soul. This is a generalisation and of course there are going to be exceptions, but that is the impression I get, particularly in the south.

Maybe the situation is different in continental Europe. From the events I've been to there seems to be a small but very healthy scene where younger people can listen to and accept a broad base of great soul music. Even there though, the amount of Y2K tunes played appears to be minimal.

Remember that if your in your twenties, even records from the late 80s have an esoteric retro-appeal. It's a good template to use to take the scene forward, but like I say, it features basically no nu-soul.

Edited July 24, 2008 by garethx

[Guest]

Just out of interest does anyone actually log on to Barry's site on hughbert or something? I find it quite an interesting insight into Barry's world

[Guest sarahleen]

I hate that phrase NU!! WTF is NU?!?!

Its like soul music for the illiterate

dont know beeks, maybe you should find an intellectual and ask them . stop picking on girls you swines lol . hi jane, good posts x

[Souljazera]

I don't like it when people have to resort to name calling just because others have a different opinion that's all.

Also I am in the worst mood I've ever been in on here. I think I;d better go light some joss sticks or something.

have sent some joss sticks...

i didnt mention any names though pete...

[Peter99]

To answer Barry's question the timeframe in which modern soul was genuinely integrated in to the mainstream Northern scene was a relatively small period in the scene's overall history.

Great modern soul music is still being made in very small quantities, but the idea of the scene's pre-eminent deejays making it genuinely integral to their sets in the way Searling, Poke etc. did in their heyday are long gone and will never, ever return. The numbers of people driven away by those sounds were probably not compensated by those who made the opposite journey: from mainstream modern soul to rare Northern soul.

As I hinted at above people's tastes and outlook are probably more entrenched than they were twenty and thirty years ago, which is inevitable given the average age of those who participate.

There is a small scene dedicated entirely to purely modern soul music. It seems to run along alright so I don't know why it would need to once again join up with the mainstream of the Northern soul scene in the main rooms at the big weekenders or allnighters.

A lot of people left because the scene had become stale and fookin shite in parts - it had run it's course in many peoples lives. Modern was not the anti christ of the scene for the majority - it's very easy to have a scapegoat.

[Souljazera]

i think that people forget that many good venues had two rooms...now we seem to only have one...

the scene is shrinking rapidly without new people it will largely disappear ..

it seems reasonable to presume that good recent soulful records are worth playing..that is if we all like soul or northern soul influenced music...i know from many late nite discusions with dave godin that he no longer found the term a useful way to describe the music..

its essentially a simple argument .you either like soulful music of any genre or you dont..be it R&B /NORTHERN/FUNK/DISCO/HOUSE/ it all communicates the same message WARMTH, HUMANITY, EMOTION AND HOPE all mixed in a few moments of esoteric pleasure that we can hopefully share with others of the same kindred spirit.

surely any DJ worth their salt can cope and play with that in mind and can select peices of music from any given genre or time..the question really is are we able to finally accept that or rather to live in our own respective bubble and prejudices of yesteryear..

must be worth some thought?

keeping the faith

Edited July 24, 2008 by souljazera

[Reg]

A point that has to be considered is the nature of modern soul music and the modern soul scene itself. At venues like Stafford and Rotherham the new modern records and newly discovered 60s sounds found a brief co-existence. By the time of late Stafford the likes of Richard Searling and Soul Sam left for a scene based largely around new releases, be they major label or independently produced items. This music sounded broadly similar to the things that had been played at the Northern Niter venues. At around that time I attended probably as many dedicated Modern Soul nights as traditional Northern allnighters.

Whiz forward a few years to the late 80s and the kind of soul that was being produced in the US was different in character: fewer releases were on 7" single for a start and CD only releases were becoming a norm. The major label releases had blanded out to try and ape the commercial juggernauts that were Luther Vandross, Freddie Jackson and Anita Baker. The indies were increasingly tinny, shoddy and suffering from miniscule recording budgets. Whereas a few years earlier I could confidently and happily buy several new releases a week, both from mail order specialists like Soul Bowl and major importers like Groove or City Sounds, by say, 1989, I was simply unhappy with the quality of a lot of the modern music I was buying.

It was precisely around this time that the Crossover phenomenon started to look very attractive to people like me: older-sounding records, forgotten spins from the Mecca etc. all had a freshness which was very appealing. Similarly the Northern scene was embracing some of these sounds at around the same time. I have clear memories of hearing records like James Phelps on Apache, The Montclairs on Arch, The Constellations, Joseph Webster, Margie Joseph on Volt being played, danced to and avidly collected on both scenes.

By this time elements of the purely modern scene had adopted the fledgling House phenomenon: the music was uptempo, solidly rhythmic and some of it was even very soulful vocally. I was buying the odd thing like Movement Soul, Michael Watford, Ron Wilson and Robert Owens. Some of it was great music but the idea that it should be played on the Northern scene just didn't seem to be on the agenda. Some may call me a dinosaur but I don't think the modern-day equivalent of those records should be either.

I've always had the utmost respect for people like Colin Curtis, who appear to have a clear vision of where this music fits into the whole scheme of the underground soul scene, but to me personally it doesn't have the textures which make it sit happily with classic Northern records, be they 60s, 70s or 80s releases.

Compared to the mid 1970s emergence of the 60s-Modern schism we now have another thirty odd years of soul music to choose from and programme in all-nighter playlists. Is it merely conservatism which prevents entire sets of new releases from featuring in the main rooms at big all-nighters and weekenders? I don't think so: I think it's because it's basically a different form of music. It has some roots in soul of the classic era, but it is a different animal. It has its own fans and it's own venues and it seems to me that this is a happy situation for both camps.

Just because the cutting edge djs of the late 70s and early 80s played brand new records it doesn't necessarily follow that this should be the case in 2008.

I think that's about right Gareth!

[Cunnie]

Just out of interest does anyone actually log on to Barry's site on hughbert or something? I find it quite an interesting insight into Barry's world

The man's as mad as a box o frogs

It's good to have him back on site though & he's certainly started a thread that's kept us all entertained today.

[Garethx]

A lot of people left because the scene had become stale and fookin shite in parts - it had run it's course in many peoples lives. Modern was not the anti christ of the scene for the majority - it's very easy to have a scapegoat.

Yes. I meant to put driven away in quotation marks because I don't think it was the sole reason why people left the scene at that particular time.

Barry's question is quite difficult to answer. I tried to reflect that in my reply. The scene's history is convoluted and complex, just like the history of soul music itself. Modern Soul circa 1974-78 played an essential part in the Northern Soul scene flourishing and maturing, I don't think there's any doubt about that. The Modern Soul of 79-85 was probably the last time contemporary music played an important and integral part of the mainstream Northern scene. Once Searling decamped to pastures new I don't think there was ever again a situation where the Norhern Soul scene had dj figureheads who could build sets at big events entirely based around contemporary music.

Since the 1990s that contemporary soul music has changed in character to such an extent that I truly don't think it can have an important part to play in the Northern scene as we know it. That doesn't mean there's not good or indeed great music around, just that it and the Northern scene are at best cousins: they share a root and many on here have friends in both camps.

1970s and indeed 80s rarities still have an important part to play in the Northern Soul scene, but can these truly be termed "Modern Soul" when a record can be up to 38 years of age and still qualify for the epithet.

The part played by Modern Soul on the Northern scene is a difficult thing to pin down when the definition of modern can be so broad. In Barry's original question I took it to mean contemporary soul: i.e. new releases. The new releases of the past eras sat very easily in the Northern Soul concept at several times in the past, and made a very valuable contribution to the scene. Today's contemporary releases (with the exception of self-consciously retro releases such as KIngs Go Forth) are too different in character from what has gone before to ever play that big and important a role again.

At Soul Essence in Great Yarmouth I've seen the proportion of new releases becoming acclaimed weekender staples dwindle over the past few years to the extent that if one makes the grade these days it's exceptional. The scene should always make room for exceptional records: that's only right and fitting; but the idea of shoe-horning contemporary releases into the Northern allnighter format just because this worked twenty years ago is problematic for me.

[Peter99]

Yes. I meant to put driven away in quotation marks because I don't think it was the sole reason why people left the scene at that particular time.

Barry's question is quite difficult to answer. I tried to reflect that in my reply. The scene's history is convoluted and complex, just like the history of soul music itself. Modern Soul circa 1974-78 played an essential part in the Northern Soul scene flourishing and maturing, I don't think there's any doubt about that. The Modern Soul of 79-85 was probably the last time contemporary music played an important and integral part of the mainstream Northern scene. Once Searling decamped to pastures new I don't think there was ever again a situation where the Norhern Soul scene had dj figureheads who could build sets at big events entirely based around contemporary music.

Since the 1990s that contemporary soul music has changed in character to such an extent that I truly don't think it can have an important part to play in the Northern scene as we know it. That doesn't mean there's not good or indeed great music around, just that it and the Northern scene are at best cousins: they share a root and many on here have friends in both camps.

1970s and indeed 80s rarities still have an important part to play in the Northern Soul scene, but can these truly be termed "Modern Soul" when a record can be up to 38 years of age and still qualify for the epithet.

The part played by Modern Soul on the Northern scene is a difficult thing to pin down when the definition of modern can be so broad. In Barry's original question I took it to mean contemporary soul: i.e. new releases. The new releases of the past eras sat very easily in the Northern Soul concept at several times in the past, and made a very valuable contribution to the scene. Today's contemporary releases (with the exception of self-consciously retro releases such as KIngs Go Forth) are too different in character from what has gone before to ever play that big and important a role again.

At Soul Essence in Great Yarmouth I've seen the proportion of new releases becoming acclaimed weekender staples dwindle over the past few years to the extent that if one makes the grade these days it's exceptional. The scene should always make room for exceptional records: that's only right and fitting; but the idea of shoe-horning contemporary releases into the Northern allnighter format just because this worked twenty years ago is problematic for me.

Blimey - you type fast Gareth!

On a personal note I agree with your latest post - or rather that's very much how I see things. I do get irritated when "modern" - however we want to define that style of music is seen as the black death - it simply isn't true.

A good post mate - I wanted to disagree earlier!

[Pete S]

I do get irritated when "modern" - however we want to define that style of music is seen as the black death - it simply isn't true.

Yeah so you keep saying...

[Peter99]

Yeah so you keep saying...

And so?

I thought you had gone to bed Mr Grumpy.

[jocko]

It went through a massive low with modern included - 1981 to 1986 mainly

Interesting point Pete, think you forgot to put IYO after this, I seem to remember a large amount of us having a ball, including 70's music

The Northern scene IS 60's music, what on earth are you talking about?

Again IYO Mr Smith, appreciate you have had a shit day (and for what its worth I think you were treated very poorly re that record deal) but surely even you can see this depends on when you started, I went from late 70's and by this time 70's were fairly common, by 81 a completely integrated part of the northen scene for most of us!

I think that's because the Modern rooms tend to empty after 3am.

I think this is a very valid point, the Modern scene, always seemed more about soul nights, except early Southport days, back in the day, and would suppose the current contemporary scene, even more Soul night based as there are lots on this with no links to Northern.

[Guest stash313]

dont know beeks, maybe you should find an intellectual and ask them . stop picking on girls you swines lol . hi jane, good posts x

lol,..cheers Sarah.

Jayne.x.

[Guest stash313]

I think this is a very valid point, the Modern scene, always seemed more about soul nights, except early Southport days, back in the day, and would suppose the current contemporary scene, even more Soul night based as there are lots on this with no links to Northern.

I'm thinking it's turned into a weekender scene..

next year I deffo want to investigate this european scene a bit more.. sounds loads of fun.

Jayne.x.

[Guest andyrattigan]

Is there no end to these Northern Vs Modern debates?

Each to their own. Some people like only 6ts and others only 7ts through to Modern.

Personally I like the lot and always have.

Its all Soul Music to my ears.

Good and bad tunes in each sub-genre.

[Guest]

Is there no end to these Northern Vs Modern debates?

Each to their own. Some people like only 6ts and others only 7ts through to Modern.

Personally I like the lot and always have.

Its all Soul Music to my ears.

Good and bad tunes in each sub-genre.

amen to that come on if you dont like it say modern dont listen to it dont go to do,s that have modern playing and vice-versa whats all the fuss about lets just enjoy the scene in the many forms it has as andy said each to their own

[Barry]

Wigan was only a poor pastiche of what a real appreciation of Soul Music was and is about

That is a poor statement Sean.

In hindsight maybe?

Good and bad records are played at any point on any scene, and when bad (subjective) records got played they served a purpose, if only for the fact that they helped shape your present day opinions.

Yes, a large amount of Wigan plays sound cheesy and poppy now but you are talking about a time and place that was 25/30 years ago - folks that were involved at all-nighter level at that particular time lived within a different social climate and were moulded by very different influences.

You can't say that it was a 'poor pastiche', as without the dodgy Wigan tracks played in the 70's & 80'S the scene today would have gone in a completely different direction.

Your comment hangs on the fact that you have hindsight Sean - we all grow musically, it, and everything else is a learning curve after all, and this scene today has been shaped from yester-years winners....but also yester-years losers have played their part too.

Knowledge is borne of experience, not hindsight.

[Barry]

Just out of interest does anyone actually log on to Barry's site on hughbert or something? I find it quite an interesting insight into Barry's world

Ste.

In response?

Being a bloke that has constantly been involved in the furtherence and promotion of black music (since we last met that is; which I think was on an ill fated mini bus trip to the 100's Club in the mid/late 80's - dodgy van, AA membership problems and a great deal of hard shoulder driving if I remember correctly. Anyway I digress), I feel I must reply to your tongue in cheek (?) post.

Your above comment is understandable given you don't have any background re 'On Hugbert (sic) Street' and it's position in the scheme of things (Not a night on the NS map, given, but a night that many old nighter heads have attended over it's course).

You see there are nights that aid and assist the promotion of soul music that aren't NS scene based.

Over the five years that OHS ran (Just to fill the readers of this post in, I haven't run a night in the last 10 months, half due to work commitments, half to loss of heart), it was instrumental in exposing many, many youngsters (that were house kids with little or no outside soulful connections other than house music) to soul music and it's many delights.

With its policy of booking lads that played black music from all eras - Bob Jeffries, Kerri Chandler, Dave Lee, Tony Hayzer, Carl Dupree, Terry Jones, Quentin Harris, Deano, Jovonn, Rahaan etc etc, to name but a few - it, as a night started many on the road to appreciating the music that we all hold dear.

(Quote Terry Jones: "I can't believe what a great night you have here!"), (Quote Bob Jeffries: "It's definately the best venue I have played in the last 12 months!"), both old hands with a history and a valid view.

Again, just to fill you in Ste (and the people that may visit following your post), the reason the OHS site is in the state it is at present is due to the fact that I have once again lost heart with the particular scene it created - I tend to move on in the hope that one day I will find Soul Heaven, one free of politics (it never happens).

Not that I am naive enough to believe that you can have a scene without politics, I'm jus a stubborn c*nt, know what I mean?

Unforunately for me I tend to move on regularly as I have quite high standards when it comes to my beliefs in how the (my particular) soul scene should be handled.

But, like clockwork, the sordid underbelly always floats to the surface (the underbelly being the politics of scenes - and politics always, after a spell, annoyingly seem to hold more clout than the music.

It is at this point I tend to lose interest, disassociate myself for a while, think about things....and start again.

Unfortunately for me you have visited my website at a time when I have neither the heart or the time to keep it at a level that would negate comments such as yours, and for this I apologise, I am in one of my lulls, but as they say that that doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

You see Ste once the porn worms get a hold on your site (I think that is what your post refers to?), it's a bastard to get rid of them, you have to update your security, etc, etc.

Your comments as regards my site are understandable, given the fact that you have no prior knowledge of OHS - but at heart it was a dig I think - an understandable one, but still a dig.

Am I over sensitive? Simply paranoid? Or just passionate?

I've no idea!

But I hope this response allows you to see that that I may be one, two, or even all of the above - and that is what keeps me going.

I know I'll get hammered for this post, as it is a typical me post after a bucketful, I know, but I felt the need to defend OHS - loose lips sink ships after all.

Anyway,do you still get thigh cramp after your spins mate?

[Barry]

Barry's question is quite difficult to answer. I tried to reflect that in my reply.

It is mate and your succinct and well thought replies have been greatly appreciated.

It's obvious to me that you give a sh*t.

Bravo.

[Steve G]

Now this is an interesting point because my mate Tom went to Stoke saturday and he said to me, remember every saturday we used to go to Wigan, I always used to go in M's to dance and you always stayed in the big room learning - in other words moving with the times, getting to know the new spins and not relying on the oldies from the Torch Cats and Wheel. Because all he really wanted to do was get smashed and dance all night to his favourite records. I wanted to hear the new biggies. But anyway, I think thats why the majoroty of people went in M's, I don't think I went in more than a dozen times in 3 years.

Yeah we're agreed on that. And as I have said on other threads - the vast majority of people, soul fans and civilians alike don't really appreciate hearing new music. Think I likened it to people at work - grew up liking Quo, still like them. Grew up liking Abba, have their greatest hits CD in their car. Get all wet when a Cliff concert at Twickenham is anounced etc etc. A few trendy dads into one or two of these pop girlies but mainly because their kids like them BUT for the vast majority, music was a part of an era of their life (when they were teenagers), rather than an ongoing interest that they've stuck with. Same is true with the oldies fans on the soul scene - musical stagnation I call it. I just don't understand the mentality that says "I don't want to hear anything new or different ever again".

[SteveM]

Steve, what Pete says is valid. The new releases played at Cleethorpes in the mid 70s fitted in alongside the 60s music. It was with the late 70s and 80s releases that the change came about... and that change was in tempo. The watered down, mid-tempo stuff is what gets overplayed at so called ATB nights now, because it's easy for the obese or over-fortified "soulie" to shuffle along to, and that's one reason why some have moved towards 60s events.

Incidentally, it's interesting to see some enlightened folks calling for "truely across the board" music policies, encompassing the five decades of soul music, etc etc, as long as there's no shite R&B played... kinda negates the whole noble ideaology, surely?

But Petes the only one making that comparison, and I agree with him (I actually raised that same point on another thread recently). Everybody else is referring to 70's. i.e. Not made in the 60's. Regardless of tempo or whatever.

As for R'n B as I've said to you before, while its not really my cup of tea, that and the funkier type of stuff is what (imo) will bring in the younger punters, if, of course, anything will.

[Pete S]

And so?

I thought you had gone to bed Mr Grumpy.

No I'm back now

[Pete S]

Interesting point Pete, think you forgot to put IYO after this, I seem to remember a large amount of us having a ball, including 70's music

Large amount? they could have fit you all into the back of a mini

[Peter99]

No I'm back now

Morning Smiffy!

[Sean Hampsey]

That is a poor statement Sean.

In hindsight maybe?

Good and bad records are played at any point on any scene, and when bad (subjective) records got played they served a purpose, if only for the fact that they helped shape your present day opinions.

Yes, a large amount of Wigan plays sound cheesy and poppy now but you are talking about a time and place that was 25/30 years ago - folks that were involved at all-nighter level at that particular time lived within a different social climate and were moulded by very different influences.

You can't say that it was a 'poor pastiche', as without the dodgy Wigan tracks played in the 70's & 80'S the scene today would have gone in a completely different direction.

Your comment hangs on the fact that you have hindsight Sean - we all grow musically, it, and everything else is a learning curve after all, and this scene today has been shaped from yester-years winners....but also yester-years losers have played their part too.

Knowledge is borne of experience, not hindsight.

Sorry Barry, most of that was lost on me.

If you'd asked me in the mid 70's what I thought of Wigan I'd have given you the same answer. Therefore, hindsight has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote earlier.

Sean

[Pete S]

Morning Smiffy!

Alright matey

modern - sh*t isn't it?

[Peter99]

Alright matey

modern - sh*t isn't it?

[jocko]

Large amount? they could have fit you all into the back of a mini

A large minibus and I would have agreed, however we were having fun honest!

[Pete S]

A large minibus and I would have agreed, however we were having fun honest!

That's the main thing!

[Guest Beeks]

Yeah we're agreed on that. And as I have said on other threads - the vast majority of people, soul fans and civilians alike don't really appreciate hearing new music. Think I likened it to people at work - grew up liking Quo, still like them. Grew up liking Abba, have their greatest hits CD in their car. Get all wet when a Cliff concert at Twickenham is anounced etc etc. A few trendy dads into one or two of these pop girlies but mainly because their kids like them BUT for the vast majority, music was a part of an era of their life (when they were teenagers), rather than an ongoing interest that they've stuck with. Same is true with the oldies fans on the soul scene - musical stagnation I call it. I just don't understand the mentality that says "I don't want to hear anything new or different ever again".

I completely agree with this comment...people tend to stick with what they know, that coupled with the fact that most of you were teens in the northern scene holds good memories for you...therefore listening to new material is hard due to the fact most feel absolutely no connection to it...

To be honest you should all count yourself lucky...I was a teen in the 80s...and im still destroying photos of me in chinos and piano ties to this day...trust me...I get far from nostalgic

[Peter99]

A large minibus and I would have agreed, however we were having fun honest!

We were all very thin in those days.

[Tricky]

Word of the day,well yesterday actually.RETROPHOBIC.......

Superb Tony

[pogo paul]

Very well put, but I'm sure we passed that point over 20 years ago, Win.

The mid 80's 'Northern Scene' spawned scores of dreadful records that seemed to be played purely because they were rare 60's (and because they acted as a minor backlash to the more modern tunes that were hugely popular at the time).

The Northern scene was progressing nicely in the early 80's (post Wigan) not least because we saw the extinction of Pop music on playlists but because we were able to play and enjoy 'current' Soul music, without some of the nonsense that, perversely, still prevails today.

Somewhere down the line, it seems, reactionaries and revisionists tried to claim back the scene as a 'retro' or exclusively 60's scene which of course was absolute nonsense - the roots of 'Mod' and Northern Soul are steeped in progressiveness and the promotion of 'current' music, along with the discovery and promotion of unplayed or forgotten 'earlier' records.

That mid 80's - '60's only' - backlash to the outbreak of a more Soulful, varied and open approach has left its unfortunate mark on the scene even to this day in creating unfortunate and unecessary splits and divisions.

So I would dispute any claims that the Northern scene is exclusively a 60's scene. In the 60's it played exclusively 60's, of course, but as decades progressed and newer Soul records were found these would obviously find favour amongst Soul fans - and should therefore be part of the playlist.

I blame Mr M's. Until that came along there was no 'retro bias' and the main rooms in Northern venues were distinctly progressive. As I see it, progression is the true 'Northern Scene' and '60's only' retro belongs in some offshoot backroom... if at all!

Sean

Agree with this post,it's all Soul music,the word is Evolution.