I just talked to Mark Greene for a while. The people in this photo ARE the moments on hog:

https://themomentsfeaturingmarkgreene.com/home.html

They were a DC group. He told me he joined right after the Hog 45 was recorded, so it was 3 members on the Hog release, Eric Olfus sang lead. He told me that although he left the stang group early on, that John Morgan from the Hog group was actually a member of the stang group until about 1972 (there were 4 members, along with Ray, Goodman, and Brown). Eric Olfus also sings lead on the Leaders "Anyone Can" on Stax, which, if you read the webpage, are essentially the hog group... Anyways, I'm just sharing, I'm going to try to do a phone interview with Mark a week from Sunday and post it up here. It's interesting that they ultimately WERE connected to the stang group. Thanks.

Your research is immense Bob, just amazing. I would never have thought these Hogs were even remotely related to the Stang ones (even though it is remote).

Brilliant mate, off to listen to some of your radio shows now.

Cheers for the information

Jock

  boba said:

I just talked to Mark Greene for a while. The people in this photo ARE the moments on hog:

https://themomentsfeaturingmarkgreene.com/home.html

They were a DC group. He told me he joined right after the Hog 45 was recorded, so it was 3 members on the Hog release, Eric Olfus sang lead. He told me that although he left the stang group early on, that John Morgan from the Hog group was actually a member of the stang group until about 1972 (there were 4 members, along with Ray, Goodman, and Brown). Eric Olfus also sings lead on the Leaders "Anyone Can" on Stax, which, if you read the webpage, are essentially the hog group... Anyways, I'm just sharing, I'm going to try to do a phone interview with Mark a week from Sunday and post it up here. It's interesting that they ultimately WERE connected to the stang group. Thanks.

wow how cool!, look forward to your interview- god I'd love a copy of the Hog 45

thanks for posting!

Having found the first ever known copy of The Moments 'Baby I want you' on Hog Records in 1993 in a $1 bin at Cappy's Records in Detroit, I did some research into who they actually were. Andy Rix and Rob Thomas found the first acetate but there were no label details on it.Nothing to do with the Detroit group of the same name or the later Stang collection but the Mizell Brothers - Fonce and Larry and Freddie Perren. Larry wrote it. (He would later go on to become a part of The Corporation that wrote many hits for the Jackson 5 among others) Freddie Perren produced it.

  Rob Moss said:

Having found the first ever known copy of The Moments 'Baby I want you' on Hog Records in 1993 in a $1 bin at Cappy's Records in Detroit, I did some research into who they actually were. Andy Rix and Rob Thomas found the first acetate but there were no label details on it.Nothing to do with the Detroit group of the same name or the later Stang collection but the Mizell Brothers - Fonce and Larry and Freddie Perren. Larry wrote it. (He would later go on to become a part of The Corporation that wrote many hits for the Jackson 5 among others) Freddie Perren produced it.

Hi Rob. So are you saying that the person I talked to who was a member of the group who told me the other members and who has a photo of the group and who remembers who sang lead on the record is wrong? The same person who even talks about their producer Freddie Perrin on their webpage? Are you also saying that US collectors who owned the record previous to 1993 did not really own the record? And are you also saying that the recent wax poetics reissue of the record where they interviewed the Mizell brothers where even they remembered that they were signed to Stang and the Robinsons' changed the lineup is also wrong?

Edited June 19, 200816 yr by boba

Every reference I've ever found identifies the Hog group in 1965 as comprising of Freddie Perren, Larry and Fonce Mizell. See 'Soul Specrum' site 2.25.2008. where they review the re issue and make the same statement. I have no idea whether US collectors had knowledge of the record prior to 1993, though I suspect they only took interest when it became rare on the UK soul scene. I've no idea if the people you spoke to were lying or not. In my experience artists are notoriously bad at remembering which songs they recorded or what they sang on. I also have a photo purporting to be of the Hog Moments which identifies the Mizell Brothers.

The flip on the Hog record, "Pray for me" is an incredible song. Rob, I would say in reply to you saying " I suspect they only took interest when it became rare on the UK soul scene", sorry mate that's bollox, it would be from the second they heard Pray For Me.

Regards,

pottsy

  Rob Moss said:

Every reference I've ever found identifies the Hog group in 1965 as comprising of Freddie Perren, Larry and Fonce Mizell. See 'Soul Specrum' site 2.25.2008. where they review the re issue and make the same statement. I have no idea whether US collectors had knowledge of the record prior to 1993, though I suspect they only took interest when it became rare on the UK soul scene. I've no idea if the people you spoke to were lying or not. In my experience artists are notoriously bad at remembering which songs they recorded or what they sang on. I also have a photo purporting to be of the Hog Moments which identifies the Mizell Brothers.

Rob, I honestly can't believe you're arguing against me at this point. There was even an extensive interview with the Mizell Brothers in wax poetics where they say they don't remember the group members. Why would they say that if they were members of the group themselves? The wax poetics reissue has liner notes in the back describing the story too, so if a magazine somehow reviewed the single and said that the Mizell brothers (who RELEASED the record but who were not members of the group) were in the group, that is not a well written magazine.

Also, I left this off of my original post, but Mark Greene told me that the 4 guys in the photo are the members singing on the first moments stang 45 "not on the outside" -- there was no ray goodman or brown on that record at all.

I will do a radio interview so you can hear it from the source, but it seems silly that you quoting a magazine's review of a reissue that somehow contradicts the text on the back of the picture sleeve of the reissue itself, as well as other far-from-primary sources, somehow trumps a discussion with an actual group member who remembers the tracks, who sang on it, the producers they worked with, etc. I understand that not every thing that an artist says may be fact, but it clearly is much more factual than a 4th hand review of a record single. The references you quote are wrong because they are all repeating the same misinformation, and all contact with the actual sources (including interviews with Larry and Fonce Mizell) directly contradict what you are saying.

Fair enough Bob - I stand corrected!

  Rob Moss said:

Fair enough Bob - I stand corrected!

I apologize if my tone came off as rude, I was also not trying to be rude. Thanks.

  Rob Moss said:

Having found the first ever known copy of The Moments 'Baby I want you' on Hog Records in 1993 in a $1 bin at Cappy's Records in Detroit, I did some research into who they actually were. Andy Rix and Rob Thomas found the first acetate but there were no label details on it.Nothing to do with the Detroit group of the same name or the later Stang collection but the Mizell Brothers - Fonce and Larry and Freddie Perren. Larry wrote it. (He would later go on to become a part of The Corporation that wrote many hits for the Jackson 5 among others) Freddie Perren produced it.

I also found a copy of this in Detroit. I got mine in 1991 at Street Corner Music in Ferndale, MI. Later sold it to Carl Willingham.

I had always thought that these Moments (on Hog) were the same Moments that recorded on the Detroit label "Hit Productionsl" amongst others"

But I bow to your awesome knowledge Rob, as the name Mizell does appear on the label.

Phil

  phild said:

I also found a copy of this in Detroit. I got mine in 1991 at Street Corner Music in Ferndale, MI. Later sold it to Carl Willingham.

I had always thought that these Moments (on Hog) were the same Moments that recorded on the Detroit label "Hit Productionsl" amongst others"

But I bow to your awesome knowledge Rob, as the name Mizell does appear on the label.

Phil

It says on the liner notes on the back of the wax poetics reissue that the Mizell's (who again were not members of the group) promoted the 45 in detroit and DC. Unfortunately, not in Chicago, so I'll probably never get a copy .

Edited June 22, 200816 yr by boba

  boba said:

It says on the liner notes on the back of the wax poetics reissue that the Mizell's (who again were not members of the group) promoted the 45 in detroit and DC. Unfortunately, not in Chicago, so I'll probably never get a copy .

I never had a clue how rare this was when I got it. And didn't really have when I sold it some 8/9 years later either, or i would never have got rid of it for what i did.

The irony of it is that I sold it to fund another trip to the US, then got locked up for 3 months 2 days before I was due to go. So I lost the ticket money etc etc and gained nothing

Such is life.

Phil

  phild said:

I never had a clue how rare this was when I got it. And didn't really have when I sold it some 8/9 years later either, or i would never have got rid of it for what i did.

The irony of it is that I sold it to fund another trip to the US, then got locked up for 3 months 2 days before I was due to go. So I lost the ticket money etc etc and gained nothing

Such is life.

Phil

Edited June 25, 200816 yr by soulman1964

YEARS AGO I WAS LOOKING THROUGH DISCOVERYS MAGAZINE,CAME ACROSS A MOMENTS ON HOG.

GOT EXCITED,BUT IT WAS JUST AN INSTRUMENTAL.SO DIDNT BID ON IT.

SPOKE TO MICK H LAST YEAR & HE SAID HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT IT TO A M8 THE WEEK BEFORE.

SAID IT WAS NAE A BAD RECORD.

ANY1 HAVE A SOUND CLIP OF THIS,CANT REMEMBER TITLES.

  sepia said:

YEARS AGO I WAS LOOKING THROUGH DISCOVERYS MAGAZINE,CAME ACROSS A MOMENTS ON HOG.

GOT EXCITED,BUT IT WAS JUST AN INSTRUMENTAL.SO DIDNT BID ON IT.

SPOKE TO MICK H LAST YEAR & HE SAID HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT IT TO A M8 THE WEEK BEFORE.

SAID IT WAS NAE A BAD RECORD.

ANY1 HAVE A SOUND CLIP OF THIS,CANT REMEMBER TITLES.

I also remember finding a Moments on Hog in Discoveries - though I think it was the other side of Baby I Want You on both sides

  phild said:

I never had a clue how rare this was when I got it. And didn't really have when I sold it some 8/9 years later either, or i would never have got rid of it for what i did.

The irony of it is that I sold it to fund another trip to the US, then got locked up for 3 months 2 days before I was due to go. So I lost the ticket money etc etc and gained nothing

Such is life.

Phil

surprised you never realised how rare this was Phil. Played off untitled acetate since mid 80's by Keb then Rob Marriott as Fabulous Impacts.....you knew the record didn't you, you were about on the scene then?

  chalky said:

surprised you never realised how rare this was Phil. Played off untitled acetate since mid 80's by Keb then Rob Marriott as Fabulous Impacts.....you knew the record didn't you, you were about on the scene then?

I knew the "sound" of the record but never the title. Just knew when i played it that it was a record I'd heard out & about, and that I liked it.

I wasn't going to that many do's in the early 90's, and didn't really buy records much other than numerous trips to the states.

It was only later when I started going again regularly and DJ'ing at the odd soul night that I found that it was very sought after, hence later selling it to Carl Willingham. But even then I didn't realise just how obscure it really was.