Creations

[Ernie Andrews]

The Creations- Footsteps/ A Dream

Value?

Was this issued twice as I have a plain lable version with just the word Zodiac at the top and the other lable that has the pattern?

Cheers Steve

[bri pinch]

The Creations- Footsteps/ A Dream

Value?

Was this issued twice as I have a plain lable version with just the word Zodiac at the top and the other lable that has the pattern?

Cheers Steve

PLAIN LABEL IS CHICAGO PRESS, T,OTHER IS THE DETROIT CONTEMPORARY RELEASE. VALUE WISE 50 - 75 QUID.

BRI PINCH.

[Val (Chunky)]

Manships guide has plain logo at 150 and the 'signs' logo at 100

[Ernie Andrews]

Manships guide has plain logo at 150 and the 'signs' logo at 100

Thanks Val -seen the logo one a few times but never seen the plain one apart from my own copy

any ideas why they are different Pressing plant? reissued?

[boba]

The Creations- Footsteps/ A Dream

Value?

Was this issued twice as I have a plain lable version with just the word Zodiac at the top and the other lable that has the pattern?

Cheers Steve

PLAIN LABEL IS CHICAGO PRESS, T,OTHER IS THE DETROIT CONTEMPORARY RELEASE. VALUE WISE 50 - 75 QUID.

BRI PINCH.

i doubt that this is true, I think the plain label is probably a later press and the signs label is the first press. the signs label is definitely a chicago press too, it was a chicago label and pressed in chicago.

[Ernie Andrews]

i doubt that this is true, I think the plain label is probably a later press and the signs label is the first press. the signs label is definitely a chicago press too, it was a chicago label and pressed in chicago.

Why therefore if it was a later press its worth more than the first press according to JM

[boba]

Why therefore if it was a later press its worth more than the first press according to JM

Maybe because the value is based on wrong information about it being an earlier press when it's not? You're making a circular argument.

[Guest]

Maybe because the value is based on wrong information about it being an earlier press when it's not? You're making a circular argument.

bob,

i hate to query with a Chicago expert and do respect your knowledge. Have you a copies of the 2 "plain" label presses that are identical in layout and logo to # Z1001?

I've just had a mooch around the office & found THREE different releases of the Zodiac 1005 i have in my hands now.

1. the design the same as the Ruby Andrews Casanova 1004 with the signs. Columbia pressed ZTSC stamped matrix pressed in styrene, which is the one you see fairly frequently.

Recording times according to label text for DREAM 2:17 FOOTSTEPS 2:51

2. # 21005 (sic/) plain light blue label pressed on vinyl with exactly the same as logo text and layout as Ruby Andrews Z1001. This is certainly without question looks an earlier press than the above Columbia one and compares with #1001 exactly

text says produced by Terry - Bridges - Knight

Times according to label text for DREAM 2:35 FOOTSTEPS 2:35

3. # Z1005 plain TORQUOISE / blue label pressed on vinyl same logo and layout as Z1001 with the CHICAGO shadowed lettering. This is certainly looks an earlier press than the above.

text says produced by Rick Williams

Times according to label text for DREAM 2:35 FOOTSTEPS 2:35

#2 #3 are infinately rarer than #1 and certainly are 60s pressings 2 & 3 used the same masterplates.

Are you suggesting #1 is the first press. then they did TWO more presses using the old design?

But I do see where you coming from because "Casanova" is one release earlier and that is the "Zodiac signs design" (or maybe somewhere out tyhere there's a Casanova with a plain logo? never seen one) but there are many cases of "crossover" label designs, especially once the company get a little cash flow.

#1004 does not have to have been pressed before # 1005, but I suspect after the success of # 1004, # 1005 could have got a new lease of life.

Anyhow i'm going spend a couple of mins actually timing all 3 variations to see if they are a different in any way. Or the label info is wrong.

yep, label info is wrong on the plain labels times stated are incorrect. the "zodiac" sign design the times are correct. to my ears they are the same.

john

Edited June 19, 2008 by john manship

[Val (Chunky)]

interesting....I didn't know there were 2 plain label designs

I have the Z1005 copy

[Guest]

interesting....I didn't know there were 2 plain label designs

I have the Z1005 copy

if i can find a little time today, i'll get all the releases i've mentioned to be scanned and sent up.

[Ernie Andrews]

This why this site is so brilliant with having people with such knowledge is amazing in my view and now Ive learned about a third press.

look forward to seing the scans John

many thanks to you and Boba

regards Steve

[Anoraks Corner]

I've just had a mooch around the office & found THREE different releases of the Zodiac 1005 i have in my hands now.

3. # Z1005 plain TORQUOISE / blue label pressed on vinyl same logo and layout as Z1001 with the CHICAGO shadowed lettering. This is certainly looks an earlier press than the above.

Better make that four.

The above one is also around with an obvious misspelling of the label name...can't recall but think it states, 'Zoiac' instead of 'Zodiac'.

[Guest]

Better make that four.

The above one is also around with an obvious misspelling of the label name...can't recall but think it states, 'Zoiac' instead of 'Zodiac'.

here's the ones I mentioned earlier.

Edited June 19, 2008 by john manship

[boba]

bob,

i hate to query with a Chicago expert and do respect your knowledge. Have you a copies of the 2 "plain" label presses that are identical in layout and logo to # Z1001?

I've just had a mooch around the office & found THREE different releases of the Zodiac 1005 i have in my hands now.

1. the design the same as the Ruby Andrews Casanova 1004 with the signs. Columbia pressed ZTSC stamped matrix pressed in styrene, which is the one you see fairly frequently.

Recording times according to label text for DREAM 2:17 FOOTSTEPS 2:51

2. # 21005 (sic/) plain light blue label pressed on vinyl with exactly the same as logo text and layout as Ruby Andrews Z1001. This is certainly without question looks an earlier press than the above Columbia one and compares with #1001 exactly

text says produced by Terry - Bridges - Knight

Times according to label text for DREAM 2:35 FOOTSTEPS 2:35

3. # Z1005 plain TORQUOISE / blue label pressed on vinyl same logo and layout as Z1001 with the CHICAGO shadowed lettering. This is certainly looks an earlier press than the above.

text says produced by Rick Williams

Times according to label text for DREAM 2:35 FOOTSTEPS 2:35

#2 #3 are infinately rarer than #1 and certainly are 60s pressings 2 & 3 used the same masterplates.

Are you suggesting #1 is the first press. then they did TWO more presses using the old design?

But I do see where you coming from because "Casanova" is one release earlier and that is the "Zodiac signs design" (or maybe somewhere out tyhere there's a Casanova with a plain logo? never seen one) but there are many cases of "crossover" label designs, especially once the company get a little cash flow.

#1004 does not have to have been pressed before # 1005, but I suspect after the success of # 1004, # 1005 could have got a new lease of life.

Anyhow i'm going spend a couple of mins actually timing all 3 variations to see if they are a different in any way. Or the label info is wrong.

yep, label info is wrong on the plain labels times stated are incorrect. the "zodiac" sign design the times are correct. to my ears they are the same.

john

Hi. The posted label scans are convincing I think I was wrong. Also, the paper used (light blue) matches the final creations on globe which came out before the zodiac 45. I have to look at my records when I get home, I thought I had a different type of "blank label" that was later, I will follow up when I get home. Thanks.

[Guest]

Hi. The posted label scans are convincing I think I was wrong. Also, the paper used (light blue) matches the final creations on globe which came out before the zodiac 45. I have to look at my records when I get home, I thought I had a different type of "blank label" that was later, I will follow up when I get home. Thanks.

Now I'm going to confuse everyone, cause the matrix on the light blue Zodiacs in the deadwax are the same as the ZTSC Indiana Columbia press, but scratched instead of machined in.

Did Columbia issue prospective clients with special ZTSC numbers before pressing? Just like the ISBN system for books. You get your # first issued before you make the book..

I know I'm sad, but I find all this very interesting.

[Guest Bearsy]

Now I'm going to confuse everyone, cause the matrix on the light blue Zodiacs in the deadwax are the same as the ZTSC Indiana Columbia press, but scratched instead of machined in.

Did Columbia issue prospective clients with special ZTSC numbers before pressing? Just like the ISBN system for books. You get your # first issued before you make the book..

I know I'm sad, but I find all this very interesting.

bloody fascinating more like

[Anoraks Corner]

Did Columbia issue prospective clients with special ZTSC numbers before pressing? Just like the ISBN system for books. You get your # first issued before you make the book..

Yes, they often issued them in batches, which of course in turn creates problems with the finate dating of release versus recording dates.

Let us also not forget that Columbia could provide a mastering service as well as pressing 'em up, so different deadwax markings are easily possible!

[Ernie Andrews]

Now I'm going to confuse everyone, cause the matrix on the light blue Zodiacs in the deadwax are the same as the ZTSC Indiana Columbia press, but scratched instead of machined in.

Did Columbia issue prospective clients with special ZTSC numbers before pressing? Just like the ISBN system for books. You get your # first issued before you make the book..

I know I'm sad, but I find all this very interesting.

John you wouldnt have taken it up as a business if you hadnt found it interesting

Why is it whenever I ask a question I cause more questions than answers!

Thanks again guys - This has been very interesting indeed - going to study the Globe presses I have

[boba]

OK, I finally got home and looked at my records and reviewed John's evidence.

The main reason I thought the plain label press was not a first press is because they had already switched to the zodiac logo and I do not understand why they would switch back.

Specifically, I have only ever seen the 1003# as this weird black zodiac label. I don't think it was ever on a plain label.

#1004, Casanova, was by far the biggest hit on the label. I have never seen it on a plain label. I always see it with the regular blue zodiac label:

although I have found it on this weird inbetween sort of label:

By the time 1005 came out, I would imagine they would have already permanently switched to the zodiac signs label.

However, the real reason I assumed it was a reissue was that I have #1020 on this other weird plain label (in addition to the much more common zodiac signs label):

This plain label I definitely think is a reissue. I never looked closely and always thought my #1005 was on this same style of plain label, which would make me think it's definitely a reissue. However, I pulled out my #1005 and it's definitely the same as one of John's scans:

As John notes, it is exactly the same label design as the earlier red label. Mine does have the same ZTSC # as the one with the signs but scrated and not stamped as John notes. I guess I am mostly convinced that John is correct at this point, although it's impossible to tell 100%. I do agree that the plain logo is rarer either way, although I initially assumed it was rarer because most local represses are rarer than the original.

Also, here is another variation not noted above. I have #1005 with the signs label that John posted a scan of, but I also have it with this larger font:

Sorry to cause any confusion.

thanks,

Bob

[Anoraks Corner]

I have only ever seen the 1003# as this weird black zodiac label.

Same here...and what a great powerhouse rumbler of a track it is too!

Shame about her vocal being down in the mix, mind!

[bri pinch]

interesting....I didn't know there were 2 plain label designs

I have the Z1005 copy

SAME AS MINE, PLAIN LABLE DESIGN, THORT IT A DIFFERENT PRESSING AREA MAYBE, LIKE SOME BOO, CAPRI, RELEASES.

BRI.

Edited June 20, 2008 by bri pinch