Deffinition Of A "modern" Tune

[Bazza]

Deffinition of a "Modern" Tune

Now I of course realize that any thing made after 1972 at 11:59pm on the 31st of December, is a (spit) Modern tune, but for some reason some folks dissagree with me no idea why

but I am right arnt I ????

Bazza

[Guest krawen]

Deffinition of a "Modern" Tune

Now I of course realize that any thing made after 1972 at 11:59pm on the 31st of December, is a (spit) Modern tune, but for some reason some folks dissagree with me no idea why

but I am right arnt I ????

Bazza

Ey up Bazza,

you're at it again arn't you ,you bugger

anyway I saw you dancing to a modern tune ( post 1972 ) at Annesley last saturday

See you in Brid

Steve B

[Guest Goldwax]

For me 'Modern' is something recorded this year and I think a quick look at the Oxford English Dictionary would back me up on that.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Goldwax

[Ceejay]

Deffinition of a "Modern" Tune

Now I of course realize that any thing made after 1972 at 11:59pm on the 31st of December, is a (spit) Modern tune, but for some reason some folks dissagree with me no idea why

but I am right arnt I ????

Bazza

Make it 11.59pm on December 31st 1969!!!

But totally agree, you're dead right hun!!! I'm in the time warp and will stay there forever!!!

Carol

[Guest]

Make it 11.59pm on December 31st 1969!!!

But totally agree, you're dead right hun!!! I'm in the time warp and will stay there forever!!!

Carol

I'm in the same time warp Carol

[SteveM]

Make it 11.59pm on December 31st 1969!!!

But totally agree, you're dead right hun!!! I'm in the time warp and will stay there forever!!!

Carol

Van McCoy, Holland Dozier Holland, Norman Whitfield etc etc all moved on..................................

Why (apart from the obvious last day of the sixties answer) is 31/12/69 seen as the definitive date anyway. Soul Musical styles had begun to change before that hadn't they ?

No doubt kindling and firewood will be being piled around a stake as I post. )

[Bazza]

Make it 11.59pm on December 31st 1969!!!

But totally agree, you're dead right hun!!! I'm in the time warp and will stay there forever!!!

Carol

Your right of course ,I was stretching it a bit.with the 1972 bit ,

Bazza

[Steve G]

Van McCoy, Holland Dozier Holland, Norman Whitfield etc etc all moved on..................................

Why (apart from the obvious last day of the sixties answer) is 31/12/69 seen as the definitive date anyway. Soul Musical styles had begun to change before that hadn't they ?

No doubt kindling and firewood will be being piled around a stake as I post. )

First signs were 67/68 in the context of the Hippie revolution.

Modern soul in it's true sense to me is something from the last 2-3 years. However in the contect of the northern scene it means something that is in a modern style when compared to a 60s headbanger - so anything post 69/70 employing more than 2 track recording, in stereo, with strings, vibes and a softer beat.

Same issue with Jazz - modern jazz encompasses anything from the 50s onwards yet I don't hear those boys arguing about the terminology much.

[SteveM]

First signs were 67/68 in the context of the Hippie revolution.

Modern soul in it's true sense to me is something from the last 2-3 years. However in the contect of the northern scene it means something that is in a modern style when compared to a 60s headbanger - so anything post 69/70 employing more than 2 track recording, in stereo, with strings, vibes and a softer beat.

Same issue with Jazz - modern jazz encompasses anything from the 50s onwards yet I don't hear those boys arguing about the terminology much.

So there are no Jazz Police then Steve ?

[Simon M]

So there are no Jazz Police then Steve ?

Jazz Police talk about vibe, genius and improvisation rather then just the format and date

[SteveM]

Jazz Police talk about vibe, genius and improvisation rather then just the format and date

[Epic]

In 40 years time Northern Soul will still be Northern Soul.

Will a record like Phyllis Hyman "You Know How To Love Me" still be classed as Modern Soul if you are take the general consensus on this topic so far? Bearing in mind that it will be over 70 years old by then.

[Davetay]

In 40 years time Northern Soul will still be Northern Soul.

Will a record like Phyllis Hyman "You Know How To Love Me" still be classed as Modern Soul if you are take the general consensus on this topic so far? Bearing in mind that it will be over 70 years old by then.

Nice one Andy, good to hear you are getting out again.

Dave

[Bazza]

In 40 years time Northern Soul will still be Northern Soul.

Will a record like Phyllis Hyman "You Know How To Love Me" still be classed as Modern Soul if you are take the general consensus on this topic so far? Bearing in mind that it will be over 70 years old by then.

of course it will........why do you ask its obvious

Bazza

[SteveM]

In 40 years time Northern Soul will still be Northern Soul.

Will a record like Phyllis Hyman "You Know How To Love Me" still be classed as Modern Soul if you are take the general consensus on this topic so far? Bearing in mind that it will be over 70 years old by then.

Depends if you class it as modern soul. It was played before the "Modern Soul Scene" was started by Sam and Arthur. It was reactivated a couple of years after that on the Northern scene, if my memory serves me correctly.

Generally, to people who were around and supported the MSS, the term generally means 70's and early 80's soul rather than new stuff, although I accept what modern as a word means. (Does the same apply to the 80's mods btw, hardly "new" were they ? )

Anybody, other than Steve G, gonna give me an opinion on this though ?

Why (apart from the obvious last day of the sixties answer) is 31/12/69 seen as the definitive date anyway. Soul Musical styles had begun to change before that hadn't they ?

See Steves reply, which I agree with totally.

Edited June 18, 2008 by SteveM

[Guest rachel]

Could it be said that 'Modern Soul' is anything played in a 'Modern' room or at a 'Modern' event.. as 'Northern Soul' is anything that's been played at a 'Northern' event...?

[SteveM]

Could it be said that 'Modern Soul' is anything played in a 'Modern' room or at a 'Modern' event.. as 'Northern Soul' is anything that's been played at a 'Northern' event...?

Lets use "Progressive" and "Rare" soul Rach.

[Guest rachel]

Lets use "Progressive" and "Rare" soul Rach.

Only if you define them

[Epic]

Depends if you class it as modern soul. It was played before the "Modern Soul Scene" was started by Sam and Arthur.

I think you will find that Blackpool Mecca was the birth of the Modern Soul Scene - think Sam was still playing Northern when The Highland Room was playing new releases.

[SteveM]

I think you will find that Blackpool Mecca was the birth of the Modern Soul Scene - think Sam was still playing Northern when The Highland Room was playing new releases.

I actually meant that Sam and Arthurs scene was called "The Modern Soul Scene", not that they invented it. I thought I was clear on that.Aren't you just nit picking on that point ? I'm well aware that modern releases were played at THe Highland Room as well as Cleethorpes, Samanthas and other places though (following Levine and Curtis's lead). My recollection, and indeed others on here is that it wasn't called "modern soul" in 75/76 (although Ian Dewhirst disagrees , but he's wrong ). They were new, and very very popular in some cases, releases. (Of course some on here seem to have forgotten how big records such as George Benson, Tavares, Rodger Collins, Esther Phillips etc were on the "Northern Scene") I'm not arguing against sixties at all, I like 60s,70s, 80s, and beyond, but can't understand the sniping that goes on about 70's soul onwards. As I've said, particularly as the 31/12/69 date fails to reflect any major change in black music styles. That had already happened.

Edited June 18, 2008 by SteveM

[Mark Bicknell]

Then there is 'Crossover'..........I'll get my coat...lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[SteveM]

Then there is 'Crossover'..........I'll get my coat...lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Thats the way to do it Mark, pour water on already burning oil.

[ChrisOD1964]

I'm in the same time warp Carol

that doesent answer the question and i`m in the time warp tooooo. are you and h. going to the swallow hotel gateshead on friday? oh and they have a modern room but i`ll be in the timewarp room

chris

[Sean Hampsey]

There's at least three plausible answers to the one question - and, even then, all are open to interpretation:-

1. The general (international) consensus on the term 'MODERN' Soul is any production post the 'CLASSIC' or 'GOLDEN' era of Soul Music (which, pretty much everyone agrees, was the sixties).

2. From a 'purist' perspective it's a term which can only be applied in a 'literal' sense to 'Current' soul music. I feel that (although it's a fair description of 'New' Soul Music) that approach is extremely limiting, almost impossible to build a 'scene' around and is consequently a minority (though perfectly accurate) viewpoint.

3. In a 'Northern Soul' context 'MODERN' Soul is, as Steve M describes, an offshoot (post Wigan) of the Northern scene, championed, largely, by Sam & Arthur - and aided and abetted by others!

That said, nobody with any knowledge of Soul Music (in a UK Northern 'scene' context) could deny that such Post 'GOLDEN era' classics as Esther Phillips, Rodger Collins, Ernie Bush, Sisters Sledge etc were (at the time of release) every bit 'Northern Soul Scene' monsters... and should, therefore, be just as relevant to the 'Northern Scene' as, say, the Tomangoes, the Incredibles or Freddie Chavez...

... but only as oldies!

Personally, I've always felt that those who favour music from all eras are truly fortunate. Who wouldn't want to be able to obtain the same amount of pleasure from 40-50 years of great music, as opposed to just the music from one decade?

However, if individuals are happy to miss out (as so many seem to be) then good luck to em.

Sean

[Pete S]

Jazz Police talk about vibe, genius and improvisation rather then just the format and date

If I was a Jazz Policeman I'd arrest all their records and f*cking burn them.

[Pete S]

My recollection, and indeed others on here is that it wasn't called "modern soul" in 75/76 (although Ian Dewhirst disagrees , but he's wrong ). They were new, and very very popular in some cases, releases. (Of course some on here seem to have forgotten how big records such as George Benson, Tavares, Rodger Collins, Esther Phillips etc were on the "Northern Scene") I'm not arguing against sixties at all, I like 60s,70s, 80s, and beyond, but can't understand the sniping that goes on about 70's soul onwards. As I've said, particularly as the 31/12/69 date fails to reflect any major change in black music styles. That had already happened.

Steve, you are spot on, it only started to be called modern when the mecca went disco and other venues adopted sounds that were also disco - the records you mention above were all just 'northern soul' records to myself and my friends, it was only a couple of years later when the sound really changed that they started to become 'modern soul' and even then I think we still referred to it as 'disco' until the very late 70's.

[mischief]

If I was a Jazz Policeman I'd arrest all their records and f*cking burn them.

do 78's burn?

[Simon M]

If I was a Jazz Policeman I'd arrest all their records and f*cking burn them.

LOL You'd never get past an interview for the Jazz Police Pete

Edited June 18, 2008 by Simon M

[Pete S]

LOL You'd never past an interview for the Jazz Police Pete

In that case maybe I'll join the Jazz Mag Police

[Simon M]

In that case maybe I'll join the Jazz Mag Police

I bet you like the 60's versions of those too .. fluffy

Edited June 18, 2008 by Simon M

[Pete S]

I bet you like the 60's versions of those too .. fluffy

I especially like the unkempt pubic hair of the period

[Simon M]

I especially like the unkempt pubic hair of the period

Have you seen the German issues .. Steve G has some

[Ceejay]

Your right of course ,I was stretching it a bit.with the 1972 bit ,

Bazza

NICE ONE!!!

BAZZA, can't remember the thread it was on, but are you by any chance the guy that described crossover as '70's lounge music'????

Was absolutely bad laughing when I read that!!!

Edited June 18, 2008 by jobbo

[Dave Rimmer]

Van McCoy, Holland Dozier Holland, Norman Whitfield etc etc all moved on..................................

Why (apart from the obvious last day of the sixties answer) is 31/12/69 seen as the definitive date anyway. Soul Musical styles had begun to change before that hadn't they ?

No doubt kindling and firewood will be being piled around a stake as I post. )

And doused in petrol

[KevH]

then of course there's the fusion of Two-step with Crossover to consider.

Step-over. .Recorded on a Wednesday,between 1979 -1981.Usually by the cleaner who could sing a bit,when the others had gone home.

[SteveM]

And doused in petrol

At todays prices, and the amount it would take?

[Guest Gavin Page]

then of course there's the fusion of Two-step with Crossover to consider.

Step-over. .Recorded on a Wednesday,between 1979 -1981.Usually by the cleaner who could sing a bit,when the others had gone home.

Like that !

[Mark R]

Personally, I've always felt that those who favour music from all eras are truly fortunate.

Sean

Abso-bloody-lutely bang on IMHO

Cheers,

Mark R

[Soulgrit]

Where's the SOUL in modern!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , there's more in my big toe.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Soulgrit

[Guest Modern Skip Tone]

Where's the SOUL in modern!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , there's more in my big toe.

Sorry..... to read about your big toe, from that then, can we assume that the rest of your body is not functional to your big toe. Would love to meet this big toe of yours . Look after it.

[Epic]

Steve, you are spot on, it only started to be called modern when the mecca went disco and other venues adopted sounds that were also disco - the records you mention above were all just 'northern soul' records to myself and my friends, it was only a couple of years later when the sound really changed that they started to become 'modern soul' and even then I think we still referred to it as 'disco' until the very late 70's.

This is where the modern/northern debate always falls apart.

There are two types of modern soul to the average northern soul fan.

1. "Modern" - Crap Disco - wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

2. "Modern" - George Benson, Esther Phillips, Gil Scott Heron, The Brothers etc - 'cos we all know that's not really modern because it was played at all niters so it must be Northern Soul.

[Pete S]

This is where the modern/northern debate always falls apart.

There are two types of modern soul to the average northern soul fan.

1. "Modern" - Crap Disco - wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

2. "Modern" - George Benson, Esther Phillips, Gil Scott Heron, The Brothers etc - 'cos we all know that's not really modern because it was played at all niters so it must be Northern Soul.

Thye majority of your option 2 records all had a 4/4 beat which made them easily accepted as 'northern soul', that's where the difference is

[Epic]

Thye majority of your option 2 records all had a 4/4 beat which made them easily accepted as 'northern soul', that's where the difference is

Was just making the point with the "Modern soul sucks" - "if it's not sixties it must be crap" brigade that modern soul has always been part of the Northern soul scene.

Truth be told The Brothers is a pure New York Disco record from the mid seventies - if people want to class it as a Northern Soul instrumental that is up to them.

[Sean Hampsey]

Truth be told The Brothers is a pure New York Disco record from the mid seventies - if people want to class it as a Northern Soul instrumental that is up to them.

Well if truth be told, mate, there's no such thing as a true Northern Soul record at all (unless we are talking about 'tailor mades' - made specifically for that scene)!

The term is often misused to imply that its a type of music in itself (i.e. Country & Western, Blues, Jazz etc.).

When Dave Godin coined the term he was referring to the 'scene' up north and the music played there - not the music in itself! (He often told me that he wished he'd never coined the phrase in the first place, that it had been abused and had strangled the progression of real Soul music in the UK).

Since that's the case 'Northern Soul' can apply to virtually anything 'Soulful' played in the North!

Those who subscribe to the notion that the definition can only apply to that music played on the 'Northern Soul Scene' during a particular 'snapshot' of the scene (i.e. the mid 70's) have a very narrow perspective and are hugely misguided.

It follows that Music played 'on the scene' 'prior to' and 'post' the mid 70's are equally as viable and can equally befit the description... if one were open minded enough to accept that viewpoint.

Sean

[Pete S]

Those who subscribe to the notion that the definition can only apply to that music played on the 'Northern Soul Scene' during a particular 'snapshot' of the scene (i.e. the mid 70's) have a very narrow perspective and are hugely misguided.

That's a very sweeping generalisation that includes 95% of everyone into "Northern Soul" - most of us got into it because it was that particular 60's soul sound and it's still the minority who want to veer away from that. So you can appreciate all kinds of soul music - well bully for you, you're obviously a higher evolved species than the beer towel brigade.

[Guest Modern Skip Tone]

BAZZA, requested us to define a modern tune......

so from another angle, and a good defination, check out the new released cd by - AL GREEN - LAY IT DOWN (2008). And you'll find soul has seriuosly fully turned Created by James Poyser and thanks to Larry Gold, ensuring none of that timeless Willie Mitchell sound has been left out.

Please do check out, I would say one of the best tracks as far as new releases go this year, the soulfully brilliant - You've Got The Love I Need. Brand "new" but classic 70' ts soul arrangment. It would not sound out of place in either soul camps, forget the year, enjoy this modern new timeless sound.

And my point of this post......is: older respected soul singers can still produce new material and we should respect this as listeners, regardless of year and genre used within the modern term.

Thank you.

[TOAD]

pm if you need help uploading to refosoul so simple

[Soulgrit]

Where's the SOUL in modern!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , there's more in my big toe.

Sorry..... to read about your big toe, from that then, can we assume that the rest of your body is not functional to your big toe. Would love to meet this big toe of yours . Look after it.

Ahh, thank's for your concern Nick, at the moment my big toe is tapping to a deep soul tune. , circa 1968.

quote: oxford dictionary, Soul: a kind of music using elements of gospel and rhythm and blues .

Edited June 19, 2008 by Soulgrit

[Guest Modern Skip Tone]

[pm if you need help uploading to refosoul so simple.

[Sean Hampsey]

So you can appreciate all kinds of soul music - well bully for you, you're obviously a higher evolved species than the beer towel brigade.

Thanks Pete, but I don't think it's a case of 'higher evolved species' its just that I'd been into Soul Music for a few years before I'd even heard the term 'Northern Soul' and, frankly, found a lot of what was played during the 'early / mid 70's' (that so many hold onto as the defining period) to be anything but Soul.

I think that the open mindedness from such DJ's as Ian Levine, Colin Curtis, Richard Searling, Sam, Arthur, Poke etc who introduced a more 'Modern' style of music to the 'Northern scene' (because up until then it hadn't been available) did more good than harm at the end of the day and helped introduce more people still to the scene and to Soul music per se.

Sean

Edited June 19, 2008 by Sean Hampsey