Carvers

[Epic]

If it's only release is on LP - Play the LP

If it's only release is on CD - Play the CD.

If you copy any of these formats on to a carver IMVHO it is a bootleg - no matter how many different ways people try to justify this practice.

[Joe Tex]

What if its a dear record say £2000 out of most peoples reach, its not on LP Cd or re- issue you keep gettin ask for it when DJing and you cant get a Dj to come who has it to play it and punters really want to hear it ?

If it's only release is on LP - Play the LP

If it's only release is on CD - Play the CD.

If you copy any of these formats on to a carver IMVHO it is a bootleg - no matter how many different ways people try to justify this practice.

[Guest dundeedavie]

What if its a dear record say £2000 out of most peoples reach, its not on LP Cd or re- issue you keep gettin ask for it when DJing and you cant get a Dj to come who has it to play it and punters really want to hear it ?

the punters should do what punters have done in all the history of this scene .....travel to the venue's that will play it

[Mark Bicknell]

What if its a dear record say £2000 out of most peoples reach, its not on LP Cd or re- issue you keep gettin ask for it when DJing and you cant get a Dj to come who has it to play it and punters really want to hear it ?

Simple that one don't play it, play something else.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

If it's only release is on LP - Play the LP

If it's only release is on CD - Play the CD.

If you copy any of these formats on to a carver IMVHO it is a bootleg - no matter how many different ways people try to justify this practice.

Its not!! have you ever done a cd for somebody or a tape now thats worser in my books and if i own the record or whatever ¬'ll carve it if i want for my own use,its not a bootleg until i sell it maybe ? you cant tell people what format to use can ya'.

[Guest]

Where do you draw the line - I presume the line moves in accordance with each individual!!

ain't that the bloody truth

accusations of a wannabe DJ if one person does it - yet the accuser can often justify doing it themselves

Edited June 3, 2008 by mikecook

[Epic]

Its not!! have you ever done a cd for somebody or a tape now thats worser in my books and if i own the record or whatever ¬'ll carve it if i want for my own use,its not a bootleg until i sell it maybe ? you cant tell people what format to use can ya'.

The point I was trying to make was how much the playing of CDs on this scene is seriously frowned upon - yet playing carvers is deemed by some as acceptable. If you carve it for your own use I think that is fine - if you DJ with it - again IMVHO that is not acceptable.

[El Corol]

i guess i have a different perspective on this, maybe because i'm not part of the scene. i have a handful of "carvers," maybe 4 or 5 two-siders, that i've had made from the following sources: (1) structurally unsound one-off acetates that may stop being usable at any moment (there seems to be some agreement that that's an approved practice, right?), (2) previously unissued tracks that appear on cd (ditto), and (3), more controversially, one-off or two-off or three-off singles i've sold or traded away because they just became too expensive to hold on to anymore. i really don't feel i have to prove anything to anyone, and if i want to play these at the bar night in new york that i've been doing for 12 years now because they're the ghosts of fantastic records whose sounds i still cherish but whose carcasses i couldn't afford to keep, i don't see the problem with it. perhaps i should advertise "99.99 percent originals, .01 percent dubs i've had made from originals i once owned genuine copies of." and then if people choose to stay away based on my politics, they're informed enough to be able to do so.

I'm intrigued about when a record becomes "too expensive to hold onto anymore"?? Is that like you were paying for it in instalments and could no longer afford to keep up those payments and therefore needed to sell and pay off the loan (like if I can't afford to maintain the mortgage on my house?) or is it code for "the price has gotten so high I couldn't resist selling it on to make a profit!!!!"

[Weingarden]

i forgot to mention a truly strange and questionable practice i've engaged in twice: traded away a hammered/noisy ultra-ultra-rarity while simultaneously procuring a carver copy for myself of a much-better-sounding recording of the same song from a commercially available cd, where the version on the cd came from a master tape.

[Weingarden]

I'm intrigued about when a record becomes "too expensive to hold onto anymore"?? Is that like you were paying for it in instalments and could no longer afford to keep up those payments and therefore needed to sell and pay off the loan (like if I can't afford to maintain the mortgage on my house?) or is it code for "the price has gotten so high I couldn't resist selling it on to make a profit!!!!"

what i meant is that i live paycheck to paycheck and sometimes get behind on bills. when an eye-opening offer comes in on a record at a time when i'm particularly strapped, i often feel that i can't afford to hold on to the record anymore. and occasionally i'm proactive in soliciting such offers.

[Guest SteveC]

ain't that the bloody truth

accusations of a wannabe DJ if one person does it - yet the accuser can often justify doing it themselves

Christ - I thought I'd been secretly blocked until your valid comment appeared Mike (Dave A knows the feeling too )

Even top DJ's who I truly admire for their passion and introduction of sounds of a radical new genre have done it

[El Corol]

what i meant is that i live paycheck to paycheck and sometimes get behind on bills. when an eye-opening offer comes in on a record at a time when i'm particularly strapped, i often feel that i can't afford to hold on to the record anymore. and occasionally i'm proactive in soliciting such offers.

Thanks for clarifying that for me Weingarden and I hope no offence was taken

Regards

Rob

[Steve G]

But thats the case with many carvers "The seller wants to keep a copy"

I dont see how you can condone it after whats been said

I am not condoning it. Just saying that was the deal.

[Guest]

Christ - I thought I'd been secretly blocked until your valid comment appeared Mike (Dave A knows the feeling too )

Even top DJ's who I truly admire for their passion and introduction of sounds of a radical new genre have done it

i know someone who only carries 45's so had a carver made of an 'album only' track. there is a definite buzz on the track at the venues it has been played at and the dancefloor has been 'alive' to it.

the DJ (wannabe ) has been very upfront when asked about the track but still gets plenty of requests for it

who cares? without labouring on old ground; other DJ's are the only ones who seem to

(...and dare i say, perhaps record dealers also )

[Guest gordon russell]

BOTTOM LINE ,IF YOU PLAY A CARVER OF A RELEASED RECORD WITH A STUCK ON COUNTERFIET LABEL.IT,S BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE ORIGINAL,DON'T CARE HOW RARE IT IS ,IF YOU AIN'T GOT IT DON'T PLAY IT.IT'S EASIER TO TRANSPORT A CARVER CUT FROM A CD OR LP. PEOPLE DON'T WANNA PAY GOOD MONEY TO GO TO A DO WHERE A DJ IS USING CARVERS INSTEAD OF RECORDS.THEY KNOW THEY'RE OUT OF ORDER AND SO DO YOU. SADLY THOUGH MANY DO IT AND THINK IT'S OK.

[Bazza]

BOTTOM LINE ,IF YOU PLAY A CARVER OF A RELEASED RECORD WITH A STUCK ON COUNTERFIET LABEL.IT,S BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE ORIGINAL,DON'T CARE HOW RARE IT IS ,IF YOU AIN'T GOT IT DON'T PLAY IT.IT'S EASIER TO TRANSPORT A CARVER CUT FROM A CD OR LP. PEOPLE DON'T WANNA PAY GOOD MONEY TO GO TO A DO WHERE A DJ IS USING CARVERS INSTEAD OF RECORDS.THEY KNOW THEY'RE OUT OF ORDER AND SO DO YOU. SADLY THOUGH MANY DO IT AND THINK IT'S OK.

Got lost in this one ,not sure what your saying

Bazza

Edited June 3, 2008 by bazza

[pikeys dog]

Acetates and CD/LP only tracks ok in my opinion - but only if you own the original...

Caused myself a bit of a moral quandry as I sold an acetate that I had carvered - the person I sold it to was ok with me still playing it - however they have since sold it on... long and short - no longer play that track anymore.

[pikeys dog]

BOTTOM LINE ,IF YOU PLAY A CARVER OF A RELEASED RECORD WITH A STUCK ON COUNTERFIET LABEL.IT,S BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE ORIGINAL,DON'T CARE HOW RARE IT IS ,IF YOU AIN'T GOT IT DON'T PLAY IT.IT'S EASIER TO TRANSPORT A CARVER CUT FROM A CD OR LP. PEOPLE DON'T WANNA PAY GOOD MONEY TO GO TO A DO WHERE A DJ IS USING CARVERS INSTEAD OF RECORDS.THEY KNOW THEY'RE OUT OF ORDER AND SO DO YOU. SADLY THOUGH MANY DO IT AND THINK IT'S OK.

I think the correct terminology is

I'll Henniganise it, and flog it on....

[Steve G]

i forgot to mention a truly strange and questionable practice i've engaged in twice: traded away a hammered/noisy ultra-ultra-rarity while simultaneously procuring a carver copy for myself of a much-better-sounding recording of the same song from a commercially available cd, where the version on the cd came from a master tape.

Hey what you do with your records is your business, you can cut as many carvers as you like. The difference we have in the UK is some people do exactly what you've done (sold the rare ones) and cut a carver - then they DJ out playing the carvers of the records they used to own- that's the difference and that's unacceptable practice to my mind. If you haven't got the original vinyl you shouldn't play it out. If you have then by all means play it off a carver.

I also don't buy this "the punters don't care" malarky - down this way they do. In fact "up there" they do too. The only ones I've found that don't care are the "Have you got the Snake" brigade. As for "it's always happened" - yes it has, and I've always felt the same way about the Emidisc merchants of yesteryear. The only difference possibly in the 70s there was a lot less variety and a lot faster turnround of sounds with sounds breaking overnight, and a thirst for all the jocks to have a copy straight away. These days it takes years to get the rarities.

Rant over....for now.

[Guest gordon russell]

EASY ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION OF PEOPLE DJING AT VENUES WITH CARVERS ...THE PROMOTERS SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT DJ EVER AGAIN.....AND NOR SHOULD ANY OTHER PROMOTER

[chrissie]

Hey what you do with your records is your business, you can cut as many carvers as you like. The difference we have in the UK is some people do exactly what you've done (sold the rare ones) and cut a carver - then they DJ out playing the carvers of the records they used to own- that's the difference and that's unacceptable practice to my mind. If you haven't got the original vinyl you shouldn't play it out. If you have then by all means play it off a carver.

I also don't buy this "the punters don't care" malarky - down this way they do. In fact "up there" they do too. The only ones I've found that don't care are the "Have you got the Snake" brigade. As for "it's always happened" - yes it has, and I've always felt the same way about the Emidisc merchants of yesteryear. The only difference possibly in the 70s there was a lot less variety and a lot faster turnround of sounds with sounds breaking overnight, and a thirst for all the jocks to have a copy straight away. These days it takes years to get the rarities.

Rant over....for now.

........but a very valid rant, spot on

QoFxx

[Mark Bicknell]

Hey what you do with your records is your business, you can cut as many carvers as you like. The difference we have in the UK is some people do exactly what you've done (sold the rare ones) and cut a carver - then they DJ out playing the carvers of the records they used to own- that's the difference and that's unacceptable practice to my mind. If you haven't got the original vinyl you shouldn't play it out. If you have then by all means play it off a carver.

I also don't buy this "the punters don't care" malarky - down this way they do. In fact "up there" they do too. The only ones I've found that don't care are the "Have you got the Snake" brigade. As for "it's always happened" - yes it has, and I've always felt the same way about the Emidisc merchants of yesteryear. The only difference possibly in the 70s there was a lot less variety and a lot faster turnround of sounds with sounds breaking overnight, and a thirst for all the jocks to have a copy straight away. These days it takes years to get the rarities.

Rant over....for now.

With you all the way Steve old son, spot on with every comment above, apart from not being the done thing how do people actually feel when they don't play the real deal? or do some people simply don't care? once I deside to move a record on the deal is done I pack it in a mailer and it goes to the buyer with no thought of 'I must still have a copy no matter what', as I said sell it, move on and find something else to fill the gap or if you want the tune that bad don't sell the original in the first place.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Bazza]

EASY ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION OF PEOPLE DJING AT VENUES WITH CARVERS ...THE PROMOTERS SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT DJ EVER AGAIN.....AND NOR SHOULD ANY OTHER PROMOTER

So we can never hear out CD only tracks.no matter how good they are ...thats just plain daft IMO

Bazza

[Guest gordon russell]

So we can never hear out CD only tracks.no matter how good they are ...thats just plain daft IMO

Bazza

BAZZA ...READ MY FIRST POST MATE

[Guest]

EASY ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION OF PEOPLE DJING AT VENUES WITH CARVERS ...THE PROMOTERS SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT DJ EVER AGAIN.....AND NOR SHOULD ANY OTHER PROMOTER

I have one carver totaly above board aswell,but how would you tell ?.......one day i`ll get round to doing some more

[El Corol]

Hey what you do with your records is your business, you can cut as many carvers as you like. The difference we have in the UK is some people do exactly what you've done (sold the rare ones) and cut a carver - then they DJ out playing the carvers of the records they used to own- that's the difference and that's unacceptable practice to my mind. If you haven't got the original vinyl you shouldn't play it out. If you have then by all means play it off a carver.

I also don't buy this "the punters don't care" malarky - down this way they do. In fact "up there" they do too. The only ones I've found that don't care are the "Have you got the Snake" brigade. As for "it's always happened" - yes it has, and I've always felt the same way about the Emidisc merchants of yesteryear. The only difference possibly in the 70s there was a lot less variety and a lot faster turnround of sounds with sounds breaking overnight, and a thirst for all the jocks to have a copy straight away. These days it takes years to get the rarities.

Rant over....for now.

Anyone wanna buy a carver of The Snake?????

[Guest]

Anyone wanna buy a carver of The Snake?????

how much and what condition? does it have a stick on label or will i need to scan one myself?

[Guest]

Anyone wanna buy a carver of The Snake?????

Only if its the unissued longer version off the CD lifted from the rare unissued LP.

[El Corol]

how much and what condition? does it have a stick on label or will i need to scan one myself?

I've had a rethink.....I'll sell you the original, but only on condition. that I can cut a carver so I can continue to play this at home............let me know what you think Mike..........good deal I reckon.

Oh I forgot £3.76 for it..inc postage and packing

Honest Rob

[El Corol]

Only if its the unissued longer version off the CD lifted from the rare unissued LP.

Well I think its actually the original issue of the unissued copy with the shorter intrumental on the b side taken from the original unissued Simon Sousain Sessions acetate!!!

[Dave Moore]

I also don't buy this "the punters don't care" malarky - down this way they do. In fact "up there" they do too. The only ones I've found that don't care are the "Have you got the Snake" brigade. As for "it's always happened" - yes it has, and I've always felt the same way about the Emidisc merchants of yesteryear. The only difference possibly in the 70s there was a lot less variety and a lot faster turnround of sounds with sounds breaking overnight, and a thirst for all the jocks to have a copy straight away. These days it takes years to get the rarities.

Rant over....for now.

[Guest gordon russell]

Got lost in this one ,not sure what your saying

Bazza

SORRY MATE, POINT NO 1 IF YOU AIN'T GOT THE REAL RECORD,DON'T PLAY A CARVER OF IT AT A VENUE

POINT NO 2 IT'S OK TO PLAY A CARVER OF A CD OR LP TRACK AS THE CARVER IS 7 INCH AND EASIER TO FIT IN YOUR RECORD BOX........THINK THATS IT WINE KICKING IN LOL......BUT IF YOU ARE REALLY GOOD ..SING THE TUNE LOL

HOPE THATS A BIT BETTER ALL THE BEST TEZZA

[Bazza]

SORRY MATE, POINT NO 1 IF YOU AIN'T GOT THE REAL RECORD,DON'T PLAY A CARVER OF IT AT A VENUE

POINT NO 2 IT'S OK TO PLAY A CARVER OF A CD OR LP TRACK AS THE CARVER IS 7 INCH AND EASIER TO FIT IN YOUR RECORD BOX........THINK THATS IT WINE KICKING IN LOL......BUT IF YOU ARE REALLY GOOD ..SING THE TUNE LOL

HOPE THATS A BIT BETTER ALL THE BEST TEZZA

Thanks Tezza,got you now

Bazza

[Guest]

POINT NO 2 IT'S OK TO PLAY A CARVER OF A CD OR LP TRACK AS THE CARVER IS 7 INCH AND EASIER TO FIT IN YOUR RECORD BOX

with you all the way on point #2 Tezza

not sure how that will sit with the anti-bootleg brigade though, and thier major concerns over royalty rights for the artists

Edited June 3, 2008 by mikecook

[pikeys dog]

It's only bootlegging if you have a carver made and then sell it on.

Copies of records from your personal collection are classed as back up files and require no royalties to be paid.

Playing them out in public though is a different matter...

[pikeys dog]

There used to be a loophole on UK produced records, where you didn't have to declare 99 copies of a record as they were considered as a promotional tool - this is how Blue Horizon (and it's affiliated labels) got around pressing Blues records in the 1960s

[Epic]

So we can never hear out CD only tracks.no matter how good they are ...thats just plain daft IMO

Bazza

Yes - if a forward thinking promoter has a CD deck in the rig he provides.

Or is that too simple an answer.

[Bazza]

Yes - if a forward thinking promoter has a CD deck in the rig he provides.

Or is that too simple an answer.

Yep , your right...its too simple....and that is for another topic...can of worms

Bazza

[Guest]

It's only bootlegging if you have a carver made and then sell it on.

Copies of records from your personal collection are classed as back up files and require no royalties to be paid.

Playing them out in public though is a different matter...

Hi Pikeys Dog. thank you for the information. I cant understand or agree with having a carver made and selling it on - not good form at all

As for playing them out, why else would you have a carver cut from a cd or LP because it's 'easier to fit in your record box' - if the reason was to play them out, would this not still be the same principle as playing out any other bootleg - and therefore the person playing it considered a wannabe DJ?

This is a serious question as I am finding it increasingly difficult to keep up with what is and what is not acceptable to play at a soul do! The goalposts seem to move or become blurred with contridictions

[Bazza]

I would think most promoters/venues would not dare have a CD player in full view,their cred would would hit rock bottom, it has happened ,the word was at one time Drax did this,and got a slating for it,I dont know whether this was right or not ,so the only way to play unreleased / CD only tracks is to have em cut...no other option......is there ??

Bazza

[Sutty]

is anyone going to admit that the main reason 7" carvers are cut is because (like acetates before that) it's a state of mind - the northern soul dj's and collectors fetishise over that format, and it's considered cooler to carry round a 45's box rather than a 12" record bag or cd case. it's got little to do with entertaining the crowd as they are generally not bothered despite what the dj's may think, its for the other dj's and collectors. this has always been the case on the northern scene, i'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with it, it's these self same dj's and collectors that have kept the scene 'pure' as far as the music goes generally and have the enthusiasm to keep it going, but all this talk of 'don't like carrying lp's' is generally nonsense, you're only walking from your car in the car park most of the time

Edited June 3, 2008 by Sutty

[Guest]

I would think most promoters/venues would not dare have a CD player in full view,their cred would would hit rock bottom, it has happened ,the word was at one time Drax did this,and got a slating for it,I dont know whether this was right or not ,so the only way to play unreleased / CD only tracks is to have em cut...no other option......is there ??

Bazza

Exactly my point!!!!!! there is another thread on here showing a photograph of a top DJ playing bootlegs and CD's at a very credible venue

Is that a goalpost move, a blurred contridiction, or another top night and the soul scene carried on regardless

[Guest dundeedavie]

is anyone going to admit that the main reason 7" carvers are cut is because (like acetates before that) it's a state of mind - the northern soul dj's and collectors fetishise over that format, and it's considered cooler to carry round a 45's box rather than a 12" record bag or cd case. it's got little to do with entertaining the crowd as they are generally not bothered despite what the dj's may think, its for the other dj's and collectors. this has always been the case on the northern scene, i'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with it, it's these self same dj's and collectors that have kept the scene 'pure' as far as the music goes generally and have the enthusiasm to keep it going, but all this talk of 'don't like carrying lp's' is generally nonsense, you're only walking from your car in the car park most of the time

i've no problem carrying albums when i'm going by car or even train ...however when travelling by air i wouldn't take albums with me as you're only allowed 1 item of hand luggage and that is my 7" box so whatever album tracks i wanna play have to be carvered for such purposes ...... when doing basics i have no probs with carrying albums or 78's for that matter

[Guest]

it's got little to do with entertaining the crowd as they are generally not bothered despite what the dj's may think, its for the other dj's and collectors. this has always been the case on the northern scene

HOORAY! there is someone else who can see the emporer has got no clothes on

[Ian Dewhirst]

I HATE these bloody modern formats like 7" vinyl records! How dare anyone consider these horrible modern attrocities to be worth anything when everyone knows that the original format is the best.

Go play with your silly 7" records and leave the professionals to the real deal:-

https://www.vcaauctions.com/show_images.php...p;auction_id=34

Bloody kids!

Ian D

[Guest Trevski]

EASY ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION OF PEOPLE DJING AT VENUES WITH CARVERS ...THE PROMOTERS SHOULD NOT HAVE THAT DJ EVER AGAIN.....AND NOR SHOULD ANY OTHER PROMOTER

That's me f**ked then! I have three carvers in my box the unissued version of "I have no choice" by Sharon McMahon, "Cry myself to sleep" Rhetta Hughes (I have the album, but I ain't carrying one album around, and have you tried cueing an album track with my eyesight?) and Sebastians mix of "Aint no mountain inst" Better pack in now then....... 

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

Well any record that i find which is not released on vinyl or (is) but accetate cause of the track not originally being released on vinyl and it's really good i would love it done on vinyl ie Jackson 5 - Just a Little Misunderstanding cause it's a great version and some tell me it would go big but i wouldn't go mad and do loads just the ones that i share a love for

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

Also i wouldn't carv a track from an album if i know i can play the album, i know it might seem silly to carry 1 album or album and 12" knowing that is what i am going to play out but i would rather carry them play them off original vinyl then cutting into a 7" record

[Weingarden]

Also i wouldn't carv a track from an album if i know i can play the album, i know it might seem silly to carry 1 album or album and 12" knowing that is what i am going to play out but i would rather carry them play them off original vinyl then cutting into a 7" record

well, this is purely personal preference, now isn't it? would you look down on someone who had the opposite idea?

[Guest Trevski]

It's only bootlegging if you have a carver made and then sell it on.

Copies of records from your personal collection are classed as back up files and require no royalties to be paid.

Playing them out in public though is a different matter...

Quite right Joe.

Vinylcarvers cuts from CD's or Acetates, or LP's fine, if you have the original. Boots are totaly different IMHO.

Iv'e always been under the impression that bootlegging is done for profit, Illegal copies from which the artist gets no money, just strait in the bootleggers pocket. So what's this got to do with getting a cut from a CD youve bought legitimatly, or one of an unreleased item from an acetate?

Bottom line on boots is, OVO collectors/Dj's don't like any Tom, Dick & Harriet playing boots 'cos it undermines them and makes a joke out of them paying £50, £500, £1000 for an original. Something I fully agree with!

All this royalties to the artist, and such integrity though, is bo**ocks IMHO. Artist gets nothing from a boot, but neither does he get anything from the £500 you paid off JM, or at a 'niter! And before anyone says "Yes, but he got paid from the original sale of it back in '66" get real, what about the masses of stuff found in warehouses in the '70's that never saw a shop? Did they get anything from them? What about Demo's "Not for sale" "Promo only" Did they get anything from them? That royalties and 'respect for the artist argument has more holes than a 'Tom 'n' Jerry' cartoon cheese!

OVO because thats what real collecting is about. Same with stamps, paintings, or anything else, you can't call a collection of fakes a proper collection, and you can't call a Dj that DJ's with boots a proper DJ. If people do it, and of course they do, fine, it has, and always will, happen. Don't go to their venues, don't support the ones that do it. Simple as that.

It's a completly different thing, and a world apart from a legitimate OVO collector/DJ getting a cut done of an unreleased track!