Bolton Octagon Censor Replys On Blog Scandal

[Paul-s]

Well, after advocating their desire to hear peoples views and even going as far as to post on this site under false names, Bolton Octagon have finally shown their true colours. Yesterday, I replied to Sally Boyds posts about artistic freedom and the nature of playwrights and theatre (see 'once upon a time in Wigan, live thread). But, it seems Sally doesn't like people who disagree with her, or, in fact, who are more knowledgeable and articulate than her. So Im going to post the reply i gave to this farce on here (you only get Sally and friends version on the blog).

Lets start with Sallys friend (or is it Sally. It bears the same lack of intellect and awkward desperation )

Sheila said...

Hurrah for Emma adding some sense to this debate. I too saw the original production of 'Once Upon a Time in Wigan'and loved it, however I too find some of the comments expressed here incredibly patronising.

Being an 'Arty Farty type' (definition - someone who either watches TV, films, theatre, reads books, looks at paintings, photographs or... listens to music...)I care about the cultural development of this country. I support any theatre which seeks to reach new audiences and showcase new writing. I am saddened and a little puzzled when a Director and Actor (BA and MA being in Theatre Arts) appears to be actively attempting to damage this process.

Joan Livesey mentioned that 'The original music is THE most essential part of the play' which devalues the contributions of the stage crew, designers, writer, director and actors - if this was indeed the case I am suprised that the company didn't instead just pop on stage with a Vestax and some 7 inches...

However having seen the play (more than once) I recall not just the music but some incredible writing, powerful and moving performances and some cracking writing. Unless the Octagon has got it very wrong with the writing, casting and dancing (Mick Martin, one of the original cast members in a new role and Sandy Holt as dance advisor all on board) I see no reasons why any of the elements should disappear.

Break a leg to all involved!

27 May 2008 22:40

mmmmmmmmmm? Mick Martin, one of the original cast members? I dont think so! Hes the writer Sheila, Hurrah! He is also about 43 years old, hardly suitable for playing a 19 year old soulie? You people keep ignoring the comment about the music being ORIGINAL. Vestax, NO, we didnt play them on a vestax at Wigan, rather , on a large sound system, as was used on the Urban Expansion SELL-OUT tours. Your musicians, I hear, are not even present at rehearsal until the last week! Wow, sound like a tight production!

Sally did'nt answer my question about artistic freedom and re-writing history yesterday, so, 'OH well read one', perhaps you can? Casting? They have cast the aging Richard Oldham (he must be 36, he looks it!) as Danny!! Hows that going to work

Its NOT new writing, it toured to 100,000 people and was published and is done by kids at school for audition speeches?! new writing? Huraah Elizabeth, perhaps more reading and less cappuccinos would do you good!

I conceived, devised, directed and toured the play, how dare you suggest I did not value the crew, have you spoken to them? NO!

You could have Gods greatest actors and tech team, BUT and this is the point you keep ignoring Lizzy, without the original music, it is nothing to do with Wigan Casino or the Northern soul scene.

Hurraah for that!

If you are the future of cultural development, we are in big trouble Elizabeth. You seem to barely be able to debate with conscious thought, never mind championing our cultural development. Do you not realise how patronising you sound. I dont even believe that you read a newspaper, never mind anything beyond. If you did, you would recognise that its not a 'truthful' gesture to re-write history, or to look down your nose through the mist of your intellect and tell 'us' that it didn't happen that way!

Keep the Faith

Paul Sadot

Sally Boyd said

Sally Boyd said...

Thanks to all of you who have posted your views and joined the debate here.

We hoped that this blog would provide a site for a genuine debate to take place and we are more than happy to post views that do not agree with our production, as we believe that discussion and controversy are an integral part of the arts. The debate has thrown up some interesting points on both sides. However, some further posts we have received have now descended into unnecessary personal attacks on bloggers, and Octagon staff, and we have taken the decision not to publish these.

We will publish further comments and posts if we receive them, both from people who like what we are doing and from those who don't. However we can not allow the site to become an arena for comments of an abusive nature.

We have stated our position clearly and this will not change. We know some people don't like what we're doing, and it is absolutely someone's right to dislike it. We however are very excited about the play, and about the production. The music sounds great, the story is moving, and we're very proud to be ending our 40th anniversary season on such a high. We look forward to welcoming the large numbers of you who will join us for the production to the Octagon, and would like to hear your thoughts after you've seen it.

28 May 2008 10:25

I replied to Sally, Elizabeth, Emma....sorry, I mean Sally

Sally, I will NOW post on ALL the websites that you edit and censor comments on your blog. My first reply yesterday was NOT abusive. It pointed out that you know nothing about agents and theatre Sally. You try to come back with theatre analogies about Bennett and Beckett etc, but when you are intellectually challenged on the inaccuracy of your point, you censor it and don't post it on your blog! LAUGHABLE and slightly pitiful. You argue artistic freedom, yet you censor anyone who disagrees. You have shown your (we want your views blog) to be what it is, an endorsement only site for the Octagon. Im even considering getting my own flyer done now, just because of your oppression of freedom of speech. You were abusive to me and others when you said "let it go". You started the personnal stuff. Who are you to tell people to let their passion and memories go! Sad, Sad, Sad, Bolton Octagon, theatre of the people, .as long as they are middle class, conventional theatre goers, who agree with everything you do! God only knows how many other posts you have decided to censor? What is the point of a censored blog? Did I use foul language, or could you not muster a reply to the reality of your farcical production? ALL of the posts you have decided NOT to put up are available on 'SOUL SOURCE' for people to view and decide if they were abusive or just truthful!

Keep the Faith

Paul Sadot

And thats it so far.....Sall and the Octagon really do not seem to have a clue, despite all their Hurrahs and pontificating. Very sad that a public funded body has so little 'soul' or intellect. I will keep you posted because they censor posts

Edited May 28, 2008 by paul-s

[Pete S]

I understand why you are angry Paul but you are missing one important point, a lot of people may never have been able to see the original play - me for instance - and would probably be happy to make do with this as an alternative. A bit like buying Bo Donaldsons version of Girl Don't Make Me Wait when Bunny Siglers version was the one everyone wanted but wasn't available. Or something like that anyway.

[Paul-s]

I understand why you are angry Paul but you are missing one important point, a lot of people may never have been able to see the original play - me for instance - and would probably be happy to make do with this as an alternative. A bit like buying Bo Donaldsons version of Girl Don't Make Me Wait when Bunny Siglers version was the one everyone wanted but wasn't available. Or something like that anyway.

Then thats very sad Pete. Because this is NOTHING to do with that play. So its going to see a sh--te NEW play about the scene. Where a bunch of west endy type musicians play and sing the songs. You can surely get that at decent working mans club or a Karaoke night. So, please DO go and see it, BUT, in no way associate 'Once Upon A Time In Wigan' with 'Once Upon A Time In Wigan -LIVE'. If my play had not been on and done so well and you heard that a new play about Wigan featuring live music from a bunch of west end musicians and clubland singers was on, would you go? I wouldn't, people are quick to slag films and documentaries about the scene, never mind this abomination. Im not saying people shouldn't go...its there pride and there money. Im saying DO NOT associate it with my play. Its nothing to do with it whatsoever!

Paul

[Pete S]

Then thats very sad Pete. Because this is NOTHING to do with that play. So its going to see a sh--te NEW play about the scene. Where a bunch of west endy type musicians play and sing the songs. You can surely get that at decent working mans club or a Karaoke night. So, please DO go and see it, BUT, in no way associate 'Once Upon A Time In Wigan' with 'Once Upon A Time In Wigan -LIVE'. If my play had not been on and done so well and you heard that a new play about Wigan featuring live music from a bunch of west end musicians and clubland singers was on, would you go? I wouldn't, people are quick to slag films and documentaries about the scene, never mind this abomination. Im not saying people shouldn't go...its there pride and there money. Im saying DO NOT associate it with my play. Its nothing to do with it whatsoever!

Paul

I understand, it's just there are a lot of people who would just look at it as a night out and not be aware of any politics involved.

You should boycott it by standing outside and selling dvd's of the original

[Paul-s]

I understand, it's just there are a lot of people who would just look at it as a night out and not be aware of any politics involved.

You should boycott it by standing outside and selling dvd's of the original

Good idea Pete, we may talk! Im only angry at the fact that they deliberately used the same images to advertise it, in a deliberate campaign to confuse the two events and, until I complained, used positive newspaper quotes from MY production to advertise theirs! NAUGHTY!. Also censoring an open debate is very out of order!

[Jumpinjoan]

I understand why you are angry Paul but you are missing one important point, a lot of people may never have been able to see the original play - me for instance - and would probably be happy to make do with this as an alternative. A bit like buying Bo Donaldsons version of Girl Don't Make Me Wait when Bunny Siglers version was the one everyone wanted but wasn't available. Or something like that anyway.

I must say I am surprised Pete.

Never in a million years would I have thought you would be all for a group of in house musicians singing the music we all love instead of the real thing.

[Pete S]

Good idea Pete, we may talk! Im only angry at the fact that they deliberately used the same images to advertise it, in a deliberate campaign to confuse the two events and, until I complained, used positive newspaper quotes from MY production to advertise theirs! NAUGHTY!. Also censoring an open debate is very out of order!

Well yes, totally out of order. I am not disagreeing with you Paul.

[Winnie :-)]

I read the replys and they didn't seem to be censoring debate, just saying come and see it and then comment? Saw the original, thought it was good, if I was in the area would go and see it just to compare.

Winnie :-)

[Paul-s]

I read the replys and they didn't seem to be censoring debate, just saying come and see it and then comment? Saw the original, thought it was good, if I was in the area would go and see it just to compare.

Winnie :-)

[Paul-s]

Here is the Great 'soul band' (a bunch of actors playing instuments)line up and cast for Bolton Octagons Panto/play.

See, im even advertising for them...What a tremendous line up! Bet you cant wait to hear those tunes you have cherished for decades re worked by this lot! ENJOY Jamie Baldwin...top Im feeling its 'soul' already.

The cast includes Rupert Hill, Coronation Street's much-loved Jamie Baldwin, Rokhsaneh Ghawam-Shahidi, fresh from Meet the Mukherjees at the Octagon and who also appeared in Rafta, Rafta in the recent National Theatre tour, Richard Oldham last appeared at the Octagon in Early One Morning and The Daughter-in-law, and Laura Bonnah appears at the Octagon for the first time.

Musicians for the production include Adam Keast and Francis Tucker, both of whom have appeared in Eight Miles High at the Octagon, Rebekha Hughes who last appeared in Lisa's Sex Strike at the Octagon. Paul Mannion, Paul Kissaun, and Shirley Darroch complete the line-up.

Book early! Its gonna be a 'real' thing

[Pauldonnelly]

I know your busy Paul but don't forget my Billy Webster....

[Guest]

Here is the Great 'soul band' (a bunch of actors playing instuments)line up and cast for Bolton Octagons Panto/play.

See, im even advertising for them...What a tremendous line up! Bet you cant wait to hear those tunes you have cherished for decades re worked by this lot! ENJOY Jamie Baldwin...top Im feeling its 'soul' already.

The cast includes Rupert Hill, Coronation Street's much-loved Jamie Baldwin, Rokhsaneh Ghawam-Shahidi, fresh from Meet the Mukherjees at the Octagon and who also appeared in Rafta, Rafta in the recent National Theatre tour, Richard Oldham last appeared at the Octagon in Early One Morning and The Daughter-in-law, and Laura Bonnah appears at the Octagon for the first time.

Musicians for the production include Adam Keast and Francis Tucker, both of whom have appeared in Eight Miles High at the Octagon, Rebekha Hughes who last appeared in Lisa's Sex Strike at the Octagon. Paul Mannion, Paul Kissaun, and Shirley Darroch complete the line-up.

Book early! Its gonna be a 'real' thing

Is it true they will develop the Corrie theme , by drafting in Sue " Audrey Roberts " Nicholls to play Hilda Woods ? ......

Malc Burton

[Pauldonnelly]

Is it true they will develop the Corrie theme , by drafting in Sue " Audrey Roberts " Nicholls to play Hilda Woods ? ......

Malc Burton

or that bloke Curly?, he could play your brother, that other Burton bloke who squeezed everything possible form that likkle Hose St Cinema...

[Paul-s]

I know your busy Paul but don't forget my Billy Webster....

Post it special tmrow Paul, be with you Friday.

[stomper45]

Hi Paul

Agree totally that using same imagery to suggest its someway connected to original play is mischievous, did they think they could with writer Mick Martin's involvement?

As it's your story (personal and of friends recollections) albeit written by Mick can understand your angst about something close to you being changed or idea developed in anyway, particularly if no involvement on changes.

I had preconceived feelings about the play. How could 4 people recreate all that was the Casino.

But the play managed it and more, something you are no doubt very proud of.

The British Theatre Guide reckoned the music got in the way of developing the characters and storylines. If a regular (arty farty) theatre goer possibly it did.

Tho as it seemed more aimed to getting Northern Soulies attend a play "we" would see the original tracks as essential ingredients.

I for my part see nothing wrong in people doing a musical or even an opera based on Northern Soul. Obviously it would be the storylines and characters that would take prominence over the music. A play/film involving football needn't have an actual game for instance.

This may seem sacrilege or missing the NS point perhaps but people should have choice to do this., and if one non soul connected audience member decides to delve further into "our world" after, well all the better imo.

This leads me to "ownership" issues and any future plans for the play to rerun.

Did anyone contact you about plans for the "Live" version. If not that too is well out of order.

What could you do to insist on accuracy or even gain royalties from other productions or merchandising of your idea, (Once upon a time beer towels maybe J). Should you have patented or signed anything. (If so close parallels to our NS hallowed artists).

It would be interesting to know if you can take an original idea and rejig it anyway you want to with no recourse from anyone.

Hoping above adds to debate and not intended to offend.

Best

Danny

[Ernie Andrews]

Intersting debate - Heres my view

I never saw your play Paul and wished I had - However If I ever decided to write my memoirs and it was turned into aplay it would reflect my input and contact to the Northern soul scene- You may not agree with my view about it and if I used 6 year olds to portray the innnocence of it- It would be my perogative to do it no matter who disagreed and in whatever form they disagreed. So what I am saying is- You did a play about a subject that cannot be patented. However if the octagon have used part or all of your script then that is balatant fringe of copyright.

There have been lots of documentaries/ plays with reference to our scene and sometimes I get upset that it did not potray the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but thats only my perspective of it. Someone else may think it potrays the key issues very well.

Understand your frustration of accuracy of subject played by people who dont fit the ideal role eg 40 year old playing a19 year old but like Pete says Bunny Sigler not available but Bo Donaldson is.

When is the play running from and to- If Im down visiting my family Ill take an objective look at it and do a constructive critique!

Regards Steve

[Jumpinjoan]

Intersting debate - Heres my view

I never saw your play Paul and wished I had - However If I ever decided to write my memoirs and it was turned into aplay it would reflect my input and contact to the Northern soul scene- You may not agree with my view about it and if I used 6 year olds to portray the innnocence of it- It would be my perogative to do it no matter who disagreed and in whatever form they disagreed. So what I am saying is- You did a play about a subject that cannot be patented. However if the octagon have used part or all of your script then that is balatant fringe of copyright.

There have been lots of documentaries/ plays with reference to our scene and sometimes I get upset that it did not potray the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but thats only my perspective of it. Someone else may think it potrays the key issues very well.

Understand your frustration of accuracy of subject played by people who dont fit the ideal role eg 40 year old playing a19 year old but like Pete says Bunny Sigler not available but Bo Donaldson is.

When is the play running from and to- If Im down visiting my family Ill take an objective look at it and do a constructive critique!

Regards Steve

I think one of the main bones of contention is the fact that they are using a band of 'in house' musicians to sing the songs live instead of playing the original recordings.

I'm sorry but with all the will in the world there is no way they will be able to do those songs justice.

You can find out when the play is on by looking at the Octagon website, should take you all of two minutes.

[Paul-s]

The British Theatre Guide reckoned the music got in the way of developing the characters and storylines. If a regular (arty farty) theatre goer possibly it did.

Tho as it seemed more aimed to getting Northern Soulies attend a play "we" would see the original tracks as essential ingredients.

Yes, the guy was a 50 year old who wasn't used to listening to music as a narrative. BUT, ALL soulies got it or even music lovers got it in general. I used 48 tracks and sometimes just one line of them (as a comment). My aim was to be true to those who went , not to the mainstream press!

I for my part see nothing wrong in people doing a musical or even an opera based on Northern Soul. Obviously it would be the storylines and characters that would take prominence over the music. A play/film involving football needn't have an actual game for instance.

NOT really able to answer this. If you want to hear a dodgy white, west end band play 'soul' music, we are not really coming from the same scene! Go to your local Karaoke on a Friday night if thats your bag.

cheers

PAUL

[Paul-s]

Intersting debate - Heres my view

I never saw your play Paul and wished I had - However If I ever decided to write my memoirs and it was turned into aplay it would reflect my input and contact to the Northern soul scene- You may not agree with my view about it and if I used 6 year olds to portray the innnocence of it- It would be my perogative to do it no matter who disagreed and in whatever form they disagreed. So what I am saying is- You did a play about a subject that cannot be patented. However if the octagon have used part or all of your script then that is balatant fringe of copyright.

There have been lots of documentaries/ plays with reference to our scene and sometimes I get upset that it did not potray the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but thats only my perspective of it. Someone else may think it potrays the key issues very well.

Understand your frustration of accuracy of subject played by people who dont fit the ideal role eg 40 year old playing a19 year old but like Pete says Bunny Sigler not available but Bo Donaldson is.

When is the play running from and to- If Im down visiting my family Ill take an objective look at it and do a constructive critique!

Regards Steve

I dont care what they do with it. What Im saying is THIS ISNT ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY PLAY. If someone was doing it with the original music I wouldn't be commenting. I am shocked that so many people dont give a s--t about the music....you ALL pretend to love soul and talk endlessly about singers, records. You youself say it wasn't accurate for you. Does that mean a cover band playing the tunes is nearer your experience then? etc. When push comes to shove, your paying good money to go and see a Sh-t- cover band playing the tunes you supposedly love. GO AND SEE IT, you probably deserve to....cheers Paul

p.s Of course people like Toss Winstanley wanted to make t shirts and beer towels etc. I could have cashed in on that. BUT, I resisted the temptation to turn my experience into a 'tacky' commercial one!

The choice to maintain my dignity and soul was an easy one for me. I think some of you would struggle!

[Winnie :-)]

I dont care what they do with it. What Im saying is THIS ISNT ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY PLAY. If someone was doing it with the original music I wouldn't be commenting. I am shocked that so many people dont give a s--t about the music....you ALL pretend to love soul and talk endlessly about singers, records. You youself say it wasn't accurate for you. Does that mean a cover band playing the tunes is nearer your experience then? etc. When push comes to shove, your paying good money to go and see a Sh-t- cover band playing the tunes you supposedly love. GO AND SEE IT, you probably deserve to....cheers Paul

p.s Of course people like Toss Winstanley wanted to make t shirts and beer towels etc. I could have cashed in on that. BUT, I resisted the temptation to turn my experience into a 'tacky' commercial one!

The choice to maintain my dignity and soul was an easy one for me. I think some of you would struggle!

=============

They'll be naming a cathedral after you if you carry on like this

[stomper45]

I for my part see nothing wrong in people doing a musical or even an opera based on Northern Soul. Obviously it would be the storylines and characters that would take prominence over the music. A play/film involving football needn't have an actual game for instance.

NOT really able to answer this. If you want to hear a dodgy white, west end band play 'soul' music, we are not really coming from the same scene! Go to your local Karaoke on a Friday night if thats your bag.

cheers

PAUL

Its not my bag either but believe people should be allowed freedom to express however badly i may feel something is portrayed. Anyone whose interested by the subject would delve further, if not into music they would remain a blissfully unaware theatre goer.

What about the ownership or patent thingy, who if anyone has the rights to OUATAW, is there anything stopping the said beer towels, clocks, cds (licensed tracks of course) and what have coming to a theatre near me in the future

[macca]

why would some of us struggle to maintain our dignity and soul in similar circumstances?

I would prefer to hear the original sound track, but there are some really good cover bands out there.

anybody remember soul patrol, white boys from northampton, that toured with a stax tribute about 15 years ago?

I'm sure they'd do the Tomangoes justice, or anything other kick ass northern classic for that matter.

The Teenagers who supported Dean Parrish in Spain were excellent as well. As good an R&B band I've ever seen, and I've seen a few.

[Gert Mark]

Bit worried about getting involved here.

I saw the original and absolutly loved it. I feel for you Paul, especially re. the paralell marketing they are using.

But its out there now, you did your job and IMHO bloody well. Cover versions happen and sometimes to fans of the original, they are absolute travesties (Nick Kamen, Yazz ??), but they are going to happen. I have no doubt your play will be redone again after this one. Be safe in the knowledge you did your job well and let the others miss the point, it is theyre right.

We are soul fans, the original is allways going to be best for us, but there is still a place for re-workings, however bad.

Mark

[Paul-s]

why would some of us struggle to maintain our dignity and soul in similar circumstances?

I would prefer to hear the original sound track, but there are some really good cover bands out there.

anybody remember soul patrol, white boys from northampton, that toured with a stax tribute about 15 years ago?

I'm sure they'd do the Tomangoes justice, or anything other kick ass northern classic for that matter.

The Teenagers who supported Dean Parrish in Spain were excellent as well. As good an R&B band I've ever seen, and I've seen a few.

Wow, well each to his own. Ill take the Tomangoes thanks.

[Paul-s]

Bit worried about getting involved here.

I saw the original and absolutly loved it. I feel for you Paul, especially re. the paralell marketing they are using.

But its out there now, you did your job and IMHO bloody well. Cover versions happen and sometimes to fans of the original, they are absolute travesties (Nick Kamen, Yazz ??), but they are going to happen. I have no doubt your play will be redone again after this one. Be safe in the knowledge you did your job well and let the others miss the point, it is theyre right.

We are soul fans, the original is allways going to be best for us, but there is still a place for re-workings, however bad.

Mark

I totally agree mate.....But, i created it with passion, so im obviously going to have a passionate response to this Cack

As I said, if they had NOT deliberately try to confuse the two and use the same marketing images, or, try to use (without permission) newspaper reviews from my play, I would not be involved in this conversation.

Anyway, ALL this debate is only good for them. So im signing off. I do have a life and am working on a play called 'Olga' with Contact theatre at the moment (watch this space)...cheers

[sister dawn]

I am agreeing with Paul on this one,

The play was about the original music purely and simply there wouldnt be any play unless it was for the music, the moving storylines, the experiences, the scene, the delivery everything was to do with the music, without which there would have been nothing. Sorry but a bunch of people just playing off a score sheet, without the heart and soul that the original artists put into their recordings means nothing, its cold, the thought of Yuros It'll never be over for me, sung by someone who it means absolutely nothing too is a sickening thought.

[macca]

of course, I'd prefer the tomangoes any day too, but the band did a very good version, in my opinion, of 'baby don't you do it', a marvin gaye song.

I'm also of the opinion that white cover version doesn't always mean crap, necessarily. I doubt these guys are in the same league as levon & the boys though...

M

[Crumb]

We were due to go and see the original play a few years ago but one of us was ill so we deceided to put it off till we could all go. Unfortunatly that opportunity never arose & I really regret missing it. Would I go and see this instead? Never in a million years

[Ernie Andrews]

I dont care what they do with it. What Im saying is THIS ISNT ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY PLAY. If someone was doing it with the original music I wouldn't be commenting. I am shocked that so many people dont give a s--t about the music....you ALL pretend to love soul and talk endlessly about singers, records. You youself say it wasn't accurate for you. Does that mean a cover band playing the tunes is nearer your experience then? etc. When push comes to shove, your paying good money to go and see a Sh-t- cover band playing the tunes you supposedly love. GO AND SEE IT, you probably deserve to....cheers Paul

p.s Of course people like Toss Winstanley wanted to make t shirts and beer towels etc. I could have cashed in on that. BUT, I resisted the temptation to turn my experience into a 'tacky' commercial one!

The choice to maintain my dignity and soul was an easy one for me. I think some of you would struggle!

"You probably derserve to" A bit emotional here arnt we? or a bit personal - I hope its the former.

Based on your views here Paul what you are implying is that nobody should be allowed to make films like Bugsy malone as this demeans gangster movies. What a poor conversive view you have. Get an independant person to see it and do an obective critique including the comparison between this and yours and that should be the end of it for you! Life is too short and in 50years time Northern soul will be just a line in the history books!

regards Steve

[Jumpinjoan]

"You probably derserve to" A bit emotional here arnt we? or a bit personal - I hope its the former.

Based on your views here Paul what you are implying is that nobody should be allowed to make films like Bugsy malone as this demeans gangster movies. What a poor conversive view you have. Get an independant person to see it and do an obective critique including the comparison between this and yours and that should be the end of it for you! Life is too short and in 50years time Northern soul will be just a line in the history books!

regards Steve

Bugsy Malone? Gangster movies?

What has this got to do with anything?

If it was 'Once Upon a Time in Wigan - The Movie' we were talking about here, and the film makers chose to replace the original music with tracks performed by God knows who, are you implying that this would be ok?

What if when you turned up at a niter and instead of hearing your favourite DJ's, you heard a house band singing Damon Fox, the Delarks and Butch's latest cover up?

Imo it has absolutely nothing to do with the play itself, because that part of the show is exactly the same as the original.

It is the fact that they have chosen to have a group of musicians, who aren't even a proper band ffs, (not that it would make any difference if they were) to come in and sing the songs, instead of having the original soundtrack upon which the whole play is based.

I am gobsmacked how anyone can think this is acceptable.

[pikeys dog]

Ya pays ya money, ya makes ya choice.

Using previous reviews is out of order and they sould be forced to remove this from any literature - i'm sure trading standards wouldn't be too impressed as it sounds like a case of misrepresentation.

But so long as their not trading on the former show, then the could have a mongolian nose flute band playing the tunes for all I care.

I won't be there to hear it, so ultimately I dont give a toss.

[Winnie :-)]

Bugsy Malone? Gangster movies?

What has this got to do with anything?

If it was 'Once Upon a Time in Wigan - The Movie' we were talking about here, and the film makers chose to replace the original music with tracks performed by God knows who, are you implying that this would be ok?

What if when you turned up at a niter and instead of hearing your favourite DJ's, you heard a house band singing Damon Fox, the Delarks and Butch's latest cover up?

Imo it has absolutely nothing to do with the play itself, because that part of the show is exactly the same as the original.

It is the fact that they have chosen to have a group of musicians, who aren't even a proper band ffs, (not that it would make any difference if they were) to come in and sing the songs, instead of having the original soundtrack upon which the whole play is based.

I am gobsmacked how anyone can think this is acceptable.

===============

It's a long time since I saw the play, but I don't remember the emphasis being on vinyl, more on the lives of the characters with the casino being a release. This is how I honestly remember it, I'm not trying to fan the flames

Winnie :-)

[Guest mel brat]

I went along to the original play (with some trepidation throughout), at Coventry, along with the disco afterwards, and enjoyed both very much. However, you probably know by now my own feelings of irritation regarding the perpetual "Wiganisation" ie. over-commercialism of Northern Soul - along with the associated glorification of the involved drugs culture - which has been a very mixed blessing to say the least. For some of us, what happened in 1974/5 was a bitter lesson indeed!

The result of this publicity - usually containing very few new or original insights into the scene (ie. increasingly tiresome and cliched references to that Frank Wilson record)- is what we see around us today. Wigan Casino Cafes, websites good and bad, retro merchandising of badges and memorabilia., 'Northern Soul' storylines on TV soap operas, a seemingly endless supply of books etc. This may give a certain amount of recognition for the original music we love, but also provides opportunities for gross misrepresentation (ala. Jazzie B!) and the bastardisation of the original underground scene purely to suit commercial interests - just as happened to Disco after 'Saturday Night Fever'.

With the utmost respect, I would have to say that your play was at least as guilty as many others in perpetuating certain cliches. I do (sincerely) sympathise with your particular problem re. your ideas being "ripped off", and also your point about the original music being used (assuming performance royalties were paid on the recordings used in the play of course!?) The mere thought of theatre musicians attempting versions of "Sister Lee" or "Just Say You're Wanted And Needed" make my blood run cold!

It's difficult to repeat all of the above without seeming churlish toward what you originally set out to achieve, but I hope you read it in the spirit it was meant. However, now that the Northern Soul genie is well and truly out of the bottle, it's most unlikely to go back in!

Edited June 2, 2008 by mel brat

[Paul-s]

===============

It's a long time since I saw the play, but I don't remember the emphasis being on vinyl, more on the lives of the characters with the casino being a release. This is how I honestly remember it, I'm not trying to fan the flames

Winnie :-)

You didn't notice an almost continuous narrative soundtrack of some 48 tunes? Sung by the original artists and chosen for their emotive qualities to engage the audience and remind them (in an immediate sensory way) along with the large scale original film footage of Wigan, how visceral an experience it was for those characters?!wow Nowt to say to that. Everyone else seemed to feel it and notice it........

[Paul-s]

I went along to the original play (with some trepidation throughout), at Coventry, along with the disco afterwards, and enjoyed both very much. However, you probably know by now my own feelings of irritation regarding the perpetual "Wiganisation" ie. over-commercialism of Northern Soul - along with the associated glorification of the involved drugs culture - which has been a very mixed blessing to say the least. For some of us, what happened in 1974/5 was a bitter lesson indeed!

The result of this publicity - usually containing very few new or original insights into the scene (ie. increasingly tiresome and cliched references to that Frank Wilson record)- is what we see around us today. Wigan Casino Cafes, websites good and bad, retro merchandising of badges and memorabilia., 'Northern Soul' storylines on TV soap operas, a seemingly endless supply of books etc. This may give a certain amount of recognition for the original music we love, but also provides opportunities for gross misrepresentation (ala. Jazzie B!) and the bastardisation of the original underground scene purely to suit commercial interests - just as happened to Disco after 'Saturday Night Fever'.

With the utmost respect, I would have to say that your play was at least as guilty as many others in perpetuating certain cliches. I do (sincerely) sympathise with your particular problem re. your ideas being "ripped off", and also your point about the original music being used (assuming performance royalties were paid on the recordings used in the play of course!?) The mere thought of theatre musicians attempting versions of "Sister Lee" or "Just Say You're Wanted And Needed" make my blood run cold!

It's difficult to repeat all of the above without seeming churlish toward what you originally set out to achieve, but I hope you read it in the spirit it was meant. However, now that the Northern Soul genie is well and truly out of the bottle, it's most unlikely to go back in!

Great points mate. I agree.

I did it originally as a 1 off. It grew over two years in popularity and at the point when the audience (some had seen it 3 times) started saying the lines along with the actors, I decided it was time to move on. I had a meeting with west end producers who wanted to do it with live musicians and the actors singing. I said NO! There is no way I would do something like that. It was done as a tribute to people and music that changed my life...it was my experience of a time long gone...cheers Paul-s

[Paul-s]

Ya pays ya money, ya makes ya choice.

Using previous reviews is out of order and they sould be forced to remove this from any literature - i'm sure trading standards wouldn't be too impressed as it sounds like a case of misrepresentation.

But so long as their not trading on the former show, then the could have a mongolian nose flute band playing the tunes for all I care.

I won't be there to hear it, so ultimately I dont give a toss.

PMSL! They may be using the mongolian nose flute....I hear

[Winnie :-)]

===============

It's a long time since I saw the play, but I don't remember the emphasis being on vinyl, more on the lives of the characters with the casino being a release. This is how I honestly remember it, I'm not trying to fan the flames

Winnie :-)

You didn't notice an almost continuous narrative soundtrack of some 48 tunes? Sung by the original artists and chosen for their emotive qualities to engage the audience and remind them (in an immediate sensory way) along with the large scale original film footage of Wigan, how visceral an experience it was for those characters?!wow Nowt to say to that. Everyone else seemed to feel it and notice it........

============

As I said it was a long time ago Of course I remember the sound track, but still thought the play was basically about the struggles of the 4 main characters. Glad you've put me straight

[Paul-s]

"You probably derserve to" A bit emotional here arnt we? or a bit personal - I hope its the former.

Based on your views here Paul what you are implying is that nobody should be allowed to make films like Bugsy malone as this demeans gangster movies. What a poor conversive view you have. Get an independant person to see it and do an obective critique including the comparison between this and yours and that should be the end of it for you! Life is too short and in 50years time Northern soul will be just a line in the history books!

regards Steve

Why would I need a critique. Believe it or not, I know it will be Sh--te....just becaue of the fact it has a live, COVER band! You dont seem to get that. So we will never agree....Im into 'soul' music you see. As Joan says (you haven't replied), if you went to a nighter and their was a cover band instead of the dj's, playing the tunes, would that suit you? If so, we are from two different planets and have had very different 'soul' up bringings. Your comparisons are tenuous, so not really worth conversing with.....its not down to my "poor conversive view", I simply need an informed conversation. Finally, " a bit emotional" ? Im glad to say I am, in life generally, an emotional and visceral person...THATS WHY I LIKE SOUL! You probably need to listen to Johnny McCall - I Need You or something like that and have a go at really listening and maybe, dare I say it, 'feeling' it. Then, you too can develop some emotion. It makes life a 'fully engaged' experience....Top!

[Paul-s]

I am agreeing with Paul on this one,

The play was about the original music purely and simply there wouldnt be any play unless it was for the music, the moving storylines, the experiences, the scene, the delivery everything was to do with the music, without which there would have been nothing. Sorry but a bunch of people just playing off a score sheet, without the heart and soul that the original artists put into their recordings means nothing, its cold, the thought of Yuros It'll never be over for me, sung by someone who it means absolutely nothing too is a sickening thought.

Thanks, I was beginning to think I was into a different sort of music and scene! Glad to your post Sister Dawn!

[Dave Rimmer]

Why would I need a critique. Believe it or not, I know it will be Sh--te....just becaue of the fact it has a live, COVER band!

Hmmm, how do you know the musicians in the band aren't just as good as the musicians who played on the original record ? I'm not claiming they are, because I've never heard them play. But then again, neither have you !

[jocko]

I can't believe this, last year when there was talk of a film with Northern as part of storyline being made there was an outcry on here saying how it wouldn't capture the real image and how it was ridiculous all these non scene people were taking the p**s out of the scene, majority were mad and up in arms against it. Bizarrely sure at least a couple of these people are now on here defending a f*****g musical with a covers band playing. Everyone and their dog now seems to thing such a bast***isation is now okay. I just don't get it, it defies logic and stinks of complete hypocrisy and double standards.

I said at the time, I love the theatre and fairly regularly attend but the original play of this was one of the most important pieces of Theatre ever to me, not just cause it captured the feeling and the time and the people just right, which it did, but it was a piece of Theatre about me, my mates and our lives. That was special.

And Mel I don't think its fair to say there cliches in original plays, they were truths of that time and that group of people, maybe not your truth but certainly was for people of my time

Joe should be right in that it shouldn't matter as we will all be just ignoring it, but obviously an awful lot of "genuine" soul fans on here think the new play has something worthy, just unbelievable. No matter how much you all say live and let live, I don't believe you can really mean it in this case, this is just wrong. What next Julie Andrews sings Aretha special?

Edited June 2, 2008 by jocko

[jocko]

Hmmm, how do you know the musicians in the band aren't just as good as the musicians who played on the original record ? I'm not claiming they are, because I've never heard them play. But then again, neither have you !

Dave this is just getting silly beyond belief, whats the script here?

So you see a covers band billed at Wolverhampton legion singing Northern soul top hits (and I believe they are out there), you are going to say oh no won't bother going to the all-nighter, will go to see the band instead, they might sound just as good. Are you really saying you would do that.

[Baz Atkinson]

Youve got every right to be pissed off Paul ,stick by your guns mate and keep the integrity with it! Looking back on the casino my overriding view is that im just so pleased i f--king survived it,I dont believe the original play glorified the drug angle either ,the simple fact is the place was just so full of heathens many of which came from the north east and are still practising lol.The whole idea of a band well f--k me ,i cant even comment on that the thought is repulsive to say the least! I had great memories of the casino and I am so pleased that you done what you done as it was quite emmotional seeing it on stage,the pins and needles down the spine were similar to the original feeling [without the come down].keep this debate going and highlight these sad immitators for what there are!

ps IF ROB MARRIOT IS READING YOU KNICKED MY OLD SPICE YOU TALL LANKY BAS----,

BAZ A.

[Pete S]

Dave this is just getting silly beyond belief, whats the script here?

So you see a covers band billed at Wolverhampton legion singing Northern soul top hits (and I believe they are out there), you are going to say oh no won't bother going to the all-nighter, will go to see the band instead, they might sound just as good. Are you really saying you would do that.

Excuse me, I'll have you know that me and my band Dougan's Ovation are very popular at the Legion, you can't tell the difference between us and the record on our versions of Goodbye Nothing To Say, Northern Soul Dancer and I'm Shaft.

[Dave Rimmer]

Dave this is just getting silly beyond belief, whats the script here?

So you see a covers band billed at Wolverhampton legion singing Northern soul top hits (and I believe they are out there), you are going to say oh no won't bother going to the all-nighter, will go to see the band instead, they might sound just as good. Are you really saying you would do that.

No of course I'm not saying I'd do that. However that's not the choice on offer is it because Paul's production no longer exists.

I might go to the allnighter on Saturday and the Legion on Sunday, but I wouldn't start a campaign to rubbish the cover band by saying they were going to be crap before hearing them play either.

I understand Paul's point about his version of the play being about the vinyl. But this isn't his version of the play, and he hasn't heard the band play yet, or seen the actors act yet.

By all means be critical when you are in a position to do so, but as far as I can tell (If you take away the fact they used reviews of his play to advertise this version which was patently wrong) this is no different from two different theatre companies putting on the same production. Without seeing both you cannot make a fair judgement as to which is the best. Especially as one version hasn't even opened it's doors yet.

It's extremely unlikely I will ever go and see the Octagon version because of the distance I live from Bolton these days, but if I did I still wouldn't be able to say it was crap compared to Paul's production, because I didn't see Paul's production either. However if I did see the Octagon version, and thought it was crap, I'd say so, because I would then be in a position to make that judgement.

I'm not doubting Paul's passion and committment to his version either, that's obvious. I just think it's a little unfair of him to be so critical of someone else's creative efforts before the doors even open to the public.

[stomper45]

No of course I'm not saying I'd do that. However that's not the choice on offer is it because Paul's production no longer exists.

I might go to the allnighter on Saturday and the Legion on Sunday, but I wouldn't start a campaign to rubbish the cover band by saying they were going to be crap before hearing them play either.

I understand Paul's point about his version of the play being about the vinyl. But this isn't his version of the play, and he hasn't heard the band play yet, or seen the actors act yet.

By all means be critical when you are in a position to do so, but as far as I can tell (If you take away the fact they used reviews of his play to advertise this version which was patently wrong) this is no different from two different theatre companies putting on the same production. Without seeing both you cannot make a fair judgement as to which is the best. Especially as one version hasn't even opened it's doors yet.

It's extremely unlikely I will ever go and see the Octagon version because of the distance I live from Bolton these days, but if I did I still wouldn't be able to say it was crap compared to Paul's production, because I didn't see Paul's production either. However if I did see the Octagon version, and thought it was crap, I'd say so, because I would then be in a position to make that judgement.

I'm not doubting Paul's passion and committment to his version either, that's obvious. I just think it's a little unfair of him to be so critical of someone else's creative efforts before the doors even open to the public.

Dave

This is a scene where vinyl is king, This proposed Below Average Mostly White Band has no chance even if they are remotely useful. Have seen when the real deal is playing in the next room many stay listening to the recorded version. (Tho was it the vinyl or cd I heard at the play) Add to that the motley crew of illegal dvd, cd and vinyl producers on here.... you say Tomangoes I say Tomangoes.

KEEP THE FAITH

Ps: had thought of doing a play re my memories of Bedford Liberal Working Mens Club includes references to the earlier largely unaccredited Kismet Social Club, have since binned the script, allowing all the emphasis on the music (saved a few bob on overpaid underfed actors for a few underpaid overfed djs), the stage is now converted to a dance floor, the audience can mingle in front of said djs, who wants to hear script when ya got the tunes..gonna run once a month, free beer towel and talc thrown in

Keep your hats on

[Paul-s]

Hmmm, how do you know the musicians in the band aren't just as good as the musicians who played on the original record ? I'm not claiming they are, because I've never heard them play. But then again, neither have you !

I have heard them play TRUST ME, saw them in another play.S--te! So, im afraid your ASSUMPTION is wrong.... Might be good enough for you though?! Not sure what your into?

Edited June 4, 2008 by paul-s

[Paul-s]

I can't believe this, last year when there was talk of a film with Northern as part of storyline being made there was an outcry on here saying how it wouldn't capture the real image and how it was ridiculous all these non scene people were taking the p**s out of the scene, majority were mad and up in arms against it. Bizarrely sure at least a couple of these people are now on here defending a f*****g musical with a covers band playing. Everyone and their dog now seems to thing such a bast***isation is now okay. I just don't get it, it defies logic and stinks of complete hypocrisy and double standards.

I said at the time, I love the theatre and fairly regularly attend but the original play of this was one of the most important pieces of Theatre ever to me, not just cause it captured the feeling and the time and the people just right, which it did, but it was a piece of Theatre about me, my mates and our lives. That was special.

And Mel I don't think its fair to say there cliches in original plays, they were truths of that time and that group of people, maybe not your truth but certainly was for people of my time

Joe should be right in that it shouldn't matter as we will all be just ignoring it, but obviously an awful lot of "genuine" soul fans on here think the new play has something worthy, just unbelievable. No matter how much you all say live and let live, I don't believe you can really mean it in this case, this is just wrong. What next Julie Andrews sings Aretha special?

Well put. I too am shocked at a lot of the 'pontificating' types on here......one minute they bang on about 'soul' and original labels and artists and the next, as you say, they want a Julie Andrews play about Wigan. SAD! Live and let live is a word used a lot by complacent types who once had a spark of energy, enthusiasm and emotion, but now "just cant be bothered". They talk about how they did 'this and that crazything' when they were younger and used to go and now??? Well, Julie Andrew says it all. Sound like they were just 'weekend soulies' in the first place.

[Paul-s]

I might go to the allnighter on Saturday and the Legion on Sunday, but I wouldn't start a campaign to rubbish the cover band by saying they were going to be crap before hearing them play either.

I understand Paul's point about his version of the play being about the vinyl. But this isn't his version of the play, and he hasn't heard the band play yet, or seen the actors act yet.

Sort of missing the fact that it was devised with the playwright and based on my experience Dave. 6 weeks work devising the script! He WAS a mate and said that he would look after the play, not sell it down the Swanny with a cover band playinhg my memories?! Also, as Baz has said, if YOU find the idea of a cover band presenting the story of the Casino, then ME & YOU obviously have very different musical tastes. Im into 'soul' music? You? Did you only listen to Wigans Chosen few back in the day? Do you still rate them as your top band? Then go and see this Pap.

By all means be critical when you are in a position to do so, but as far as I can tell (If you take away the fact they used reviews of his play to advertise this version which was patently wrong) this is no different from two different theatre companies putting on the same production. Without seeing both you cannot make a fair judgement as to which is the best. Especially as one version hasn't even opened it's doors yet.

Once agian YOU miss the whole point. Ive answered this above. I know its crap, because I dont want to see a local house band singing 'Breakaway pt1' or 'I Dont Like To lose'. Thats not the story of these characters or the that of Wigan and the experience of those who went, except yourself obviously. Thats fair enough. The rest of us dont remember the tunes like that. I loved them because of the way they were produced, sung, felt, expressed, by the original artists. Its not the SONG on its own that I like, its that recording. The songs not so good that I want to hear Paul Daniels singing it on stage or some other person whos not 'feeling' it!

This band is only going in for the last week of rehearsal, so i guess your happy with that commitment and feeling?

I'm not doubting Paul's passion and committment to his version either, that's obvious. I just think it's a little unfair of him to be so critical of someone else's creative efforts before the doors even open to the public.

THats RICH mate. Im the very person in a position to judge it. They have NO RESPECT for the subject, the people, the music and they definitely have NO SOUL.

Keep the Faith!

[Dave Rimmer]

I might go to the allnighter on Saturday and the Legion on Sunday, but I wouldn't start a campaign to rubbish the cover band by saying they were going to be crap before hearing them play either.

I understand Paul's point about his version of the play being about the vinyl. But this isn't his version of the play, and he hasn't heard the band play yet, or seen the actors act yet.

Sort of missing the fact that it was devised with the playwright and based on my experience Dave. 6 weeks work devising the script! He WAS a mate and said that he would look after the play, not sell it down the Swanny with a cover band playinhg my memories?! Also, as Baz has said, if YOU find the idea of a cover band presenting the story of the Casino, then ME & YOU obviously have very different musical tastes. Im into 'soul' music? You? Did you only listen to Wigans Chosen few back in the day? Do you still rate them as your top band? Then go and see this Pap.

You see, I try to present a reasonable point and you just turn it to personal insults. No matter how long you spent devising the script, this still isn't your version of the play. In addition you know perfectly well what my musical tastes are, you've seen me at the same venue as yourself often enough, and heard me DJ often enough, so why imply different ?

By all means be critical when you are in a position to do so, but as far as I can tell (If you take away the fact they used reviews of his play to advertise this version which was patently wrong) this is no different from two different theatre companies putting on the same production. Without seeing both you cannot make a fair judgement as to which is the best. Especially as one version hasn't even opened it's doors yet.

Once agian YOU miss the whole point. Ive answered this above. I know its crap, because I dont want to see a local house band singing 'Breakaway pt1' or 'I Dont Like To lose'. Thats not the story of these characters or the that of Wigan and the experience of those who went, except yourself obviously. Thats fair enough. The rest of us dont remember the tunes like that. I loved them because of the way they were produced, sung, felt, expressed, by the original artists. Its not the SONG on its own that I like, its that recording. The songs not so good that I want to hear Paul Daniels singing it on stage or some other person whos not 'feeling' it!

This band is only going in for the last week of rehearsal, so i guess your happy with that commitment and feeling?

You conveniently ignore most of the points I've made and twist what little you have referred to completely out of context. Bt of course you will know it's crap, won't you. Talk about a God complex where only your view is the right one. LOL

I'm not doubting Paul's passion and committment to his version either, that's obvious. I just think it's a little unfair of him to be so critical of someone else's creative efforts before the doors even open to the public.

THats RICH mate. Im the very person in a position to judge it. They have NO RESPECT for the subject, the people, the music and they definitely have NO SOUL.

God complex again. You haven't seen it, you're not in a position to judge it until you have. If you then say it's crap, fine, I won't argue with your view.

Keep the Faith!

Oh of course, black glove and clenched fist held proudly in the air !

My last words on the subject.

I tried to present a reasonable point of view. I didn't actually defend the play, (How could I, I haven't seen it) I defended their right to put it on. Anything else smacks of censorship.....ie you can't put this play on because I don't want you to because it's my play !

Perhaps if you'd read what I actually wrote, you'd have realised this, and not had to resort to personal insults to try and make your point.