Ringleaders ? Four Temples

[Guest]

We have just acquired for auction the two legendary 10" Ringleaders acetates.

Without me trawling through Goldmine CD's can anyone throw any light on why "all Of My Life" was credited to The Four Temples on the CD.

The acetates sleeves clearly credit The Ringleaders. If Goldmine had the original session tapes did they issue all 4 tracks, or just "All Of My Life". If so why not "Win You Over"

the two acetates are:

1. Baby what has happened to our love b/w win you over

2. All Of My Life c/w Lets Start Over

We shall be comparing the mixes on the two issued tracks to see if they are the same as the acetate cuts.

Lastly which CD was it on.

[soulsalmon]

We have just acquired for auction the two legendary 10" Ringleaders acetates.

Without me trawling through Goldmine CD's can anyone throw any light on why "all Of My Life" was credited to The Four Temples on the CD.

The acetates sleeves clearly credit The Ringleaders. If Goldmine had the original session tapes did they issue all 4 tracks, or just "All Of My Life". If so why not "Win You Over"

the two acetates are:

1. Baby what has happened to our love b/w win you over

2. All Of My Life c/w Lets Start Over

We shall be comparing the mixes on the two issued tracks to see if they are the same as the acetate cuts.

Lastly which CD was it on.

Rare soul millionaires vol 1 if memory serves,i remember these acetates being on andersons list,but dave thorley beat me to em,as to the credits dave played it as the ringleaders

it was later after Tim spoke to a band member that at the time the acetates were recorded they where called the four temples and shortly became the ringleaders,dont take this as gospel John its just what i remember

Salmon

[Guest]

Rare soul millionaires vol 1 if memory serves,i remember these acetates being on andersons list,but dave thorley beat me to em,as to the credits dave played it as the ringleaders

it was later after Tim spoke to a band member that at the time the acetates were recorded they where called the four temples and shortly became the ringleaders,dont take this as gospel John its just what i remember

Salmon

The two acetates are still inside their original sleeves clearly labeled and type-credited to the Ringleaders. Did anyone ever issue the other unissued track "Win You Over" or has that escaped CD release?

I know Bob A. is in touch with a band member so the reason for "The Four Temples" crediting will be resolved.

But nothing on the original acetates suggests they recorded these tracks under a different name. Hopefully all will be revealed from Bob's research.

Two absolutely amazingly desirable discs though, the most gorgeous items I've handled in a while.

Edited May 5, 2008 by john manship

[Guest]

The two acetates are still inside their original sleeves clearly labeled and type-credited to the Ringleaders. Did anyone ever issue the other unissued track "Win You Over" or has that escaped CD release?

I know Bob A. is in touch with a band member so the reason for "The Four Temples" crediting will be resolved.

But nothing on the original acetates suggests they recorded these tracks under a different name. Hopefully all will be revealed from Bob's research.

Two absolutely amazingly desirable discs though, the most gorgeous items I've handled in a while.

If I did not know you better John - or I was Dewhirst - I would consider that comment to have a double entendre ........

Malc Burton

[Chalky]

I don't have cd in front or with me John but I thought I read that the Four temples was on the master tapes???

Is there a mention as to the Ringleaders previous name bing the Four Temples in Chicago Soul (Robert Pruter), again book is at home so can't check.

Edited May 5, 2008 by chalky

[Eddie Hubbard]

The Ringleaders is on volume 2 of Millionaires , " A welcome first issue of this previously unreleased cut out of north Pennsylvania which has masqueraded as the Ringleaders on the Northern scene for some years now " is Tim Brown's sleevenote comments .In Chicago Soul book , Robert Pruter writes " The Ringleaders [ Willie Hawkins , Edgar Donahue ,Vandy Lane , and Brent Anderson ] a group from Saginaw ,Michigan that had the beautiful " Lets start over " a local hit in the fall of 1966 " .No mention of Four Temples . Hope this helps ,Best ,Eddie

[Sebastian]

Without me trawling through Goldmine CD's can anyone throw any light on why "all Of My Life" was credited to The Four Temples on the CD.

Lastly which CD was it on.

"All Of My Life" is included on two Goldmine CDs, "For Millionaires Only Vol. 2" (GSCD 101) and "45 Phobia" (GSCD 178).

There is not much info in the GSCD 101 booklet and I don't have GSCD 178 so don't know what info can be found in that one.

"Win You Over" sure is a nice tune! As far as I can see, it hasn't been issued on CD.

Edited May 5, 2008 by Sebastian

[Munchkin]

We have just acquired for auction the two legendary 10" Ringleaders acetates.

Without me trawling through Goldmine CD's can anyone throw any light on why "all Of My Life" was credited to The Four Temples on the CD.

The acetates sleeves clearly credit The Ringleaders. If Goldmine had the original session tapes did they issue all 4 tracks, or just "All Of My Life". If so why not "Win You Over"

the two acetates are:

1. Baby what has happened to our love b/w win you over

2. All Of My Life c/w Lets Start Over

We shall be comparing the mixes on the two issued tracks to see if they are the same as the acetate cuts.

Lastly which CD was it on.

john on the gold mine cd cut(all of my life) and the 7in (realeased for think winsford anniversary ) the first 2 second drum roll is cut short if you listen to the acetae there is a drum roll before the horns

[Guest]

The Ringleaders is on volume 2 of Millionaires , " A welcome first issue of this previously unreleased cut out of north Pennsylvania which has masqueraded as the Ringleaders on the Northern scene for some years now " is Tim Brown's sleevenote comments .In Chicago Soul book , Robert Pruter writes " The Ringleaders [ Willie Hawkins , Edgar Donahue ,Vandy Lane , and Brent Anderson ] a group from Saginaw ,Michigan that had the beautiful " Lets start over " a local hit in the fall of 1966 " .No mention of Four Temples . Hope this helps ,Best ,Eddie

Thanks Eddie, Bob A. confirms they were a Michigan band, who recorded in Chicago. The acetates confirm they certainly we're not "masquerading", as the credits are to the Ringleaders. Labels and type face are certainly unquestionalble genuine 60s.

Wonder where Brownie got "the Four Temples" info from?

[Guest]

john on the gold mine cd cut(all of my life) and the 7in (realeased for think winsford anniversary ) the first 2 second drum roll is cut short if you listen to the acetae there is a drum roll before the horns

Thanks for that, so maybe lifted from the Winford 45 or visa/versa not master tapes. I think I have a copy of that 45 so I'll get comparing later today.

If I can bring myself to listen to music after watching Leicester City yesterday... I'm now expecting a gloating telephone call from Dave Evison.... Dave i'm not in... ring Aidy Croasdale.

PS Which came first Goldmine CD or the anniversary 45??

Edited May 5, 2008 by john manship

[Soul-slider]

From my scans archive.

[Guest]

Can you let me have any provenance/authenticity of this acetate etc. That would be very helpful. This master #3191 fits into the recording session.

John

Edited May 5, 2008 by john manship

[Wiganer1]

Can you let me have any provenance/authenticity of this acetate etc. That would be very helpful.

John

====

dave thorley should be able to fill you in ..he played it first and maybe able fill in any missing info..

[Guest]

====

dave thorley should be able to fill you in ..he played it first and maybe able fill in any missing info..

Mark,

These two acetates we have, were originally Dave Thorley's & they are unique.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of The Four Temples - Pennsylvania quote, whether it's correct or not. I'm sure Dave with be in touch with additional info.

Thanks

John

[Wiganer1]

Mark,

These two acetates we have, were originally Dave Thorley's & they are unique.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of The Four Temples - Pennsylvania quote, whether it's correct or not. I'm sure Dave with be in touch with additional info.

Thanks

John

---

ok john...hope u get ure info...classic tunes and good memories....hope ure well mate!

[Prophonics 2029]

I cant find the CD cover but wasn't there a picture of a label with the name Four Temples on it in the sleeve notes

[Dave Thorley]

Hi Guys

Still in Germany, will put more later. Came from John Anderson, he got them from someone that had masterfiles for Wonderful. These and several other 10" discs were there. Never heard the others. These are the real deal, wish I had never sold them, but no I´m not going to be biding on them. All of my life´ was booted, by our man in Las Vegas, ´Win you over´still a one off. Who ever gets these will be a very lucky person. Stunning to say the least.

Dave

[Anoraks Corner]

From my scans archive.

Isn't this a fake someone made up for a dub?

[Ian J]

Have heard the all of my life acetate played many times by the current owner. The start of the track is different to the CD issued one, as said earlier with the drum roll. The discs went through John Andersons hands twice as he sold them to Dave Thorley then the current owner bought them off John whilst working for him in the 1980s.

[Guest]

Isn't this a fake someone made up for a dub?

Dave,

There are so many fake acetates circulating of all sorts of collectables and you can't varify from a scan but it does look a little too precise and raised my doubts immediately. On the other hand if it is fake, someone went to a lot of research to get the mastering numbers to run concurrently.

But why would M-Pac be on the acetate, that's unusual to list the label it was to be issued on? Why the longer title? was it all to strengthen authenticity.

uum... the man from North Notts did some wonderful and colourful acetates that fooled many over the years, including me.

So what's the story on this one, where did it orignate from..??

Anyone got any concrete info on the Four Temples crediting on the CD or is it another CD note "filler". Surely if someone had access/rights to the original tapes from the session "Win You Over" would surely have been made available, wouldn't you think?

Anyhow the two original acetates will be available shortly to bid on, AS A PAIR and as Dave Thorley said who ever gets these two will be one very Lucky Fella.

[boba]

Dave,

There are so many fake acetates circulating of all sorts of collectables and you can't varify from a scan but it does look a little too precise and raised my doubts immediately. On the other hand if it is fake, someone went to a lot of research to get the mastering numbers to run concurrently.

But why would M-Pac be on the acetate, that's unusual to list the label it was to be issued on? Why the longer title? was it all to strengthen authenticity.

uum... the man from North Notts did some wonderful and colourful acetates that fooled many over the years, including me.

So what's the story on this one, where did it orignate from..??

Anyone got any concrete info on the Four Temples crediting on the CD or is it another CD note "filler". Surely if someone had access/rights to the original tapes from the session "Win You Over" would surely have been made available, wouldn't you think?

Anyhow the two original acetates will be available shortly to bid on, AS A PAIR and as Dave Thorley said who ever gets these two will be one very Lucky Fella.

I have seen other test pressings and acetates that have listed Toddlin Town, it's not that surprising that it said m-pac on that one (essentially the same label owners). I still haven't managed to catch up with the guy my friend talked to to ask what the deal is with the 'four temples' though, I will follow up when I do.

[Dave Thorley]

Dave,

There are so many fake acetates circulating of all sorts of collectables and you can't varify from a scan but it does look a little too precise and raised my doubts immediately. On the other hand if it is fake, someone went to a lot of research to get the mastering numbers to run concurrently.

But why would M-Pac be on the acetate, that's unusual to list the label it was to be issued on? Why the longer title? was it all to strengthen authenticity.

uum... the man from North Notts did some wonderful and colourful acetates that fooled many over the years, including me.

So what's the story on this one, where did it orignate from..??

Anyone got any concrete info on the Four Temples crediting on the CD or is it another CD note "filler". Surely if someone had access/rights to the original tapes from the session "Win You Over" would surely have been made available, wouldn't you think?

Anyhow the two original acetates will be available shortly to bid on, AS A PAIR and as Dave Thorley said who ever gets these two will be one very Lucky Fella.

To try and a little more,

Yes John Anderson had these twice, when he sold them to me and when I sold them back to him mid-late 80's.

The scan above is a complete supprise to me, never seen that one before or heard of it. Could be real, as to say anything is a one off is always a dangerous thing. But looking at it, the light clean part of the label going across on the studio address part, with none of the staining that is visable on the rest of the label looks odd.

Need to see the disc really to make any more comment. Being credited to M-Pac or another disc being credited to Toddlin' Town, no great suprise. I collect studio disc's and the info on them can often be incorrect or scant, the guys cutting them were not always the shapest knife in the box. Often they were cut with no info at all and later someone would scribble a bit of info on. Many have no label at all and spotting fakes can be real hard. You need to know where they come from, the story behind them, but none of it is a perfect science.

But there are ways of telling, many major labels use just one or two mastering companies for there discs and a few had there own machines and labels. Many of the Detroit independant artists used Ron Murphy or Bob at The Disc, both used the same company for their blanks. In Philly many would use Frank Virtue and they appear with his mastering label on.

All of it just adds to the colourful world of collecting hard to find tunes. So as of today I would have to say the only two discs that have a fully confirmed history are the ones John has for sale. Good luck to all bidding and John, I'll be popping my promotional bill in the post

[boba]

To try and a little more,

Yes John Anderson had these twice, when he sold them to me and when I sold them back to him mid-late 80's.

The scan above is a complete supprise to me, never seen that one before or heard of it. Could be real, as to say anything is a one off is always a dangerous thing. But looking at it, the light clean part of the label going across on the studio address part, with none of the staining that is visable on the rest of the label looks odd.

Need to see the disc really to make any more comment. Being credited to M-Pac or another disc being credited to Toddlin' Town, no great suprise. I collect studio disc's and the info on them can often be incorrect or scant, the guys cutting them were not always the shapest knife in the box. Often they were cut with no info at all and later someone would scribble a bit of info on. Many have no label at all and spotting fakes can be real hard. You need to know where they come from, the story behind them, but none of it is a perfect science.

But there are ways of telling, many major labels use just one or two mastering companies for there discs and a few had there own machines and labels. Many of the Detroit independant artists used Ron Murphy or Bob at The Disc, both used the same company for their blanks. In Philly many would use Frank Virtue and they appear with his mastering label on.

All of it just adds to the colourful world of collecting hard to find tunes. So as of today I would have to say the only two discs that have a fully confirmed history are the ones John has for sale. Good luck to all bidding and John, I'll be popping my promotional bill in the post

there was an international recording co in chicago, by the way, it was that weird IRC label that put out mostly rock / polka stuff

[Guest]

I have seen other test pressings and acetates that have listed Toddlin Town, it's not that surprising that it said m-pac on that one (essentially the same label owners). I still haven't managed to catch up with the guy my friend talked to to ask what the deal is with the 'four temples' though, I will follow up when I do.

I think the big question that has risen out of these informative conversations. Does the other acetate play the "Booted" and CD version or is it the same version with the intro intact, as the 10" genuine ones?

The devious practice of lifting the sound from "secretly" taping DJ sets has long been a dirty practice that has plagued UK record collecting.. Perhaps that's why a few seconds are missing off the beginning, maybe?

You've only got to recall the story behind Andy Rick's exclusive "Cindy Scott" vocal to "Bird Walking" to validate the above statement.

I'm always suspicious of acetates with no provenance and a little "too much" detail on the label. I personally wouldn't pass final judgement on it unless I could see it and hear it in the flesh. At the moment I'm just a little dubious..

Bob, please let me know if the Four Temples & Northern Pa. is fact or fantasy..

Thanks for everyones input on this most interesting of subjects.

John

[soulsalmon]

Hi Guys

Still in Germany, will put more later. Came from John Anderson, he got them from someone that had masterfiles for Wonderful. These and several other 10" discs were there. Never heard the others. These are the real deal, wish I had never sold them, but no I´m not going to be biding on them. All of my life´ was booted, by our man in Las Vegas, ´Win you over´still a one off. Who ever gets these will be a very lucky person. Stunning to say the least.

Dave

Dave can you remember what you paid originally ?,i remember seeing them on soul bowls list,an seem to remember them being quite cheap(memory's not what it was).I rang about them but youd beaten me to it

Regards

Salmon

[Benji]

The scan of the "acetate" posted here came from Mark Hanson, he sent it to me for my labelscan site. At the time I didn't doubt it authenticy but do so now

He also sent me a scan of a test-pressing of the Vondells "Hey girl", was OK for me back then but looks dubious now...

as far as I remember, the original acetate take of "all of my life" does feature a count-in. It is omitted from the take used for the Goldmine CD. also, the take of "baby what happened" on the acetate is more "echo-ing" than the released take.

I got a dub of "all of my life" and the acetate take of "baby what has happened" in my DJ box, used to play it occasionally but both sides never raised any interest from the dancers here in south-germany.

[Alan Pollard]

Dave,

There are so many fake acetates circulating of all sorts of collectables and you can't varify from a scan but it does look a little too precise and raised my doubts immediately. On the other hand if it is fake, someone went to a lot of research to get the mastering numbers to run concurrently.

But why would M-Pac be on the acetate, that's unusual to list the label it was to be issued on? Why the longer title? was it all to strengthen authenticity.

Hi John,

Generally what you are saying about it mentioning the release label on the acetate is true, infact most acetates don't even quote the artist just the title, however I have many Jobete Acetates that do have the all the information on.

The strangest acetate I have is "Fireman" by Vala Regan & The Valarons on Bob Crewe Productions, it is a single sided acetate with the release label ATCO quoted on the label and even the Atco release number, does anyone have any information on this release, I heard that there were only ever 18 copies pressed on this acetate or demo call it what you like.

Regards

Alan

[Dave Thorley]

Dave can you remember what you paid originally ?,i remember seeing them on soul bowls list,an seem to remember them being quite cheap(memory's not what it was).I rang about them but youd beaten me to it

Regards

Salmon

Hi Mate

Yes I remember exactly what I paid for them, and I doubt they were on his list the first time he had them, as I went down to see him the week he got back from the trip he got them on, but who am I to say your wrong, he could of put them on the day he got back. The price may have been cheap to you, but for me a chippy back then, it was a few weeks wages.