Die Hard Soulies

[Barry]

Can anyone actually say they are not touched by any other form of music?

I see some posts on here, as regards white people singing for example, that if turned the other way round would read as something else.

Save me the obvious, 'of course we are' posts - I don't see those posts when certain views as regards 'what is soul' are brought up on here.

I think I'm asking the impossible of people on here - which is to open up, in full view of their peers.

It's a big old quilt 'music', made up from a patchwork of many styles, colours and passion.

Does 'Soul Music' have to be put forward as a form of expression by its devotees as a form of music only able to be delivered by black vocalists?

[kathdj]

Our musical paths have crossed on occasion Barry - most memorably meeting you in the queue for Body &SOUL in New York (bit of showing off there . . .sorry!!) and at your On Hubert Street events.

Yes I do love 'soul' although I would find it hard to define. Most of the 'classifications' people use mean nothing to me; a lot of what is defined as 'Northern' I know nothing about because I wasn't going to clubs in the 70's - I'm a 60's girl.

As a commercial DJ my record and CD collection contains a vast range of music, much of which has only been bought for work. I count it as a good night if I can get away without playing ABBA!!

As a specialist DJ I have hundreds of 90's house tunes - some of which have stood the test of time better than others.

My own personal collection would range from some old 1930' and 40's 78's; lots of rock and roll; blues; my 60's soul and R&B; house classics; the Jam; Thin Lizzy - the real one with Phil Lynott. This is the stuff I would get up and dance to.

I would hate to be stuck in any particular genre or era - I hope I'm always ready to listen to something new . . or old.

Can white people sing the Blues? or Soul? Can black people sing Country & Western? Can I sing at all?

If you didn't know who it was singing, would it change your opinion when you found out? Does it matter?

[Chris L]

Can anyone actually say they are not touched by any other form of music?

Does 'Soul Music' have to be put forward as a form of expression by its devotees as a form of music only able to be delivered by black vocalists?

Of course not, the Chess brothers were (are) white folk as were the Stax people, don't

get more soulful that these people. As for the singer's skin colour who gives a rat's rear

end ? Did you know that Barbara Mills said she always though of herself as a soul singer

and it never occured to her that she was anything else. Nah beauty is only skin deep,

colour is only something the BBC talks about, frankly the colour of someone's underwear

is a far more important topic.

Chris L

[Barry]

Our musical paths have crossed on occasion Barry - most memorably meeting you in the queue for Body &SOUL in New York (bit of showing off there . . .sorry!!) and at your On Hubert Street events.

Yes I do love 'soul' although I would find it hard to define. Most of the 'classifications' people use mean nothing to me; a lot of what is defined as 'Northern' I know nothing about because I wasn't going to clubs in the 70's - I'm a 60's girl.

As a commercial DJ my record and CD collection contains a vast range of music, much of which has only been bought for work. I count it as a good night if I can get away without playing ABBA!!

As a specialist DJ I have hundreds of 90's house tunes - some of which have stood the test of time better than others.

My own personal collection would range from some old 1930' and 40's 78's; lots of rock and roll; blues; my 60's soul and R&B; house classics; the Jam; Thin Lizzy - the real one with Phil Lynott. This is the stuff I would get up and dance to.

I would hate to be stuck in any particular genre or era - I hope I'm always ready to listen to something new . . or old.

Can white people sing the Blues? or Soul? Can black people sing Country & Western? Can I sing at all?

If you didn't know who it was singing, would it change your opinion when you found out? Does it matter?

My point exactly.

[ImberBoy]

Ahhh labels .......... We must insist on having them, not sure why? Maybe it's easy for us to catalogue in our minds but we all kinda know that as soon as a musical genre gets a title label then the confusion starts.

I am moved by soul music and some times to tears but I am also moved by loads of other stuff, maybe I'm just an old softie?

Am I a "Die Hard Soulie"? Yup, I am. I still go to all-nighters and my main focus has and always has been Northernsoul, I hasten to add that I am not a "Born again" either.

I do listen to other music but I do tend to find most commercial music..... Soulless.

Opening up in front of peers, not too sure if a flat medium like a internet forum either precludes me from doing that nor does it encourage me to "open up"? Also I'm not too sure that telling some one that you like another type of music is actually "opening up"?

Does soul music have to be put forward as a form of expression; I hope all music is a form of expression? Well apart from those who deliberately mimic or produce just to make a buck?

As far as having black artists only able to deliver, well what about Dust Springfield and Shaken Stevens!!!!

Took some flowers in the spring

made a sweet clover ring

And sent it off in a letter to you.

Took a song from the lark - the moon from the dark

A spark with the sparkling dew.

with a kiss and a hug and a whole lot of love

[Guest EType69]

Can anyone actually say they are not touched by any other form of music?

I see some posts on here, as regards white people singing for example, that if turned the other way round would read as something else.

Save me the obvious, 'of course we are' posts - I don't see those posts when certain views as regards 'what is soul' are brought up on here.

I think I'm asking the impossible of people on here - which is to open up, in full view of their peers.

It's a big old quilt 'music', made up from a patchwork of many styles, colours and passion.

Does 'Soul Music' have to be put forward as a form of expression by its devotees as a form of music only able to be delivered by black vocalists?

The second love (musicaly speaking) of the late Dave Godin was country & western. I don't think any of us would doubt his credentials as a "die hard soulie".

[Guest Nik Mak]

The second love (musicaly speaking) of the late Dave Godin was country & western. I don't think any of us would doubt his credentials as a "die hard soulie".

A TRUE STORY: A freind and I were Djing regularly at a large club on the outskirts of Bournemouth back in the mid 90's. For weeks my mate Paul had been going on about a new version of an old rare groove track called 'outstanding' done by a british guy called Kenny Thomas. The tune was awesome and he duely played the hell out of it every Saturday night at the club. Very quickly it became an anthem. Some weeks later I was offered a PA by the record company by Kenny Thomas himself I jumped at the chance. The night arrived and as I was playing my set a small white guy tapped me on the shoulder and introduced himself as Kenny Thomas we shook hands and began a long conversation about his trip down from London etc. After a while my mate arrived to start his set and I introduced Kenny to him at which he looked a bit perplexed. Whats the problem I asked? He whispered in my ear 'That ain't Kenny Thomas mate, Kenny Thomas is BLACK!' I just fell about laughing Kenny looked at me so I told him what my mate had said and thankfully he saw the funny side of it. But my mate was absolutely sure this little white guy was NOT Kenny Thomas. I hit the stop button on the record and shouted out to the crowd that would they like to hear Kenny Thomas sing! The place erupted My mate Paul looked at me with wide eyes as I handed the mike to the small white guy. Singing accapella Kenny filled the place with his fantastic voice and again the place went ballistic. Paul looked at me and smiled. We both laughed. By the way Paul is a 6ft 4inch 19 stone BLACK MAN.

[billb]

A TRUE STORY: A freind and I were Djing regularly at a large club on the outskirts of Bournemouth back in the mid 90's. For weeks my mate Paul had been going on about a new version of an old rare groove track called 'outstanding' done by a british guy called Kenny Thomas. The tune was awesome and he duely played the hell out of it every Saturday night at the club. Very quickly it became an anthem. Some weeks later I was offered a PA by the record company by Kenny Thomas himself I jumped at the chance. The night arrived and as I was playing my set a small white guy tapped me on the shoulder and introduced himself as Kenny Thomas we shook hands and began a long conversation about his trip down from London etc. After a while my mate arrived to start his set and I introduced Kenny to him at which he looked a bit perplexed. Whats the problem I asked? He whispered in my ear 'That ain't Kenny Thomas mate, Kenny Thomas is BLACK!' I just fell about laughing Kenny looked at me so I told him what my mate had said and thankfully he saw the funny side of it. But my mate was absolutely sure this little white guy was NOT Kenny Thomas. I hit the stop button on the record and shouted out to the crowd that would they like to hear Kenny Thomas sing! The place erupted My mate Paul looked at me with wide eyes as I handed the mike to the small white guy. Singing accapella Kenny filled the place with his fantastic voice and again the place went ballistic. Paul looked at me and smiled. We both laughed. By the way Paul is a 6ft 4inch 19 stone BLACK MAN.

Great story!

Would the same be for Helen Shapiro or Tom Jones if you didn't already know?

And when a child is born into this world

It has no concept

Of the tone the skin he's living in

[Guest Richard Bergman]

When I read the title of this thread, I instantly thought of Bruce Willis' interpretation of the Drifters classic "under the boardwalk".

Not only is the afore mentioned Mr Willis my least favorite actor, but also by a strange twist of fate my least favourite singer.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Richard Bergman

[Little-stevie]

When I read the title of this thread, I instantly thought of Bruce Willis' interpretation of the Drifters classic "under the boardwalk".

Not only is the afore mentioned Mr Willis my least favourite actor, but also by a strange twist of fate my least favourite singer.

Its been said before.. You white folk do have a few singers that can hold a tune and deliver soul indeed

But no Rhythm when it comes to dancing

Many people have liked a tune and thought it was a black singer, only to find out later they were white, case closed really.. Or do they then stop liking the the tune ..

[Tomangoes]

The rule is there are no rules. Quality always shines through no matter who the singer is.

As an example Donnie Elberts voice gets right up my nose, but for others its wonderful.

Instrumentals are soulfull to some but trash to others.

Thats why its a great debating music society.

I personally cant stand Country and Western music, but Im sure there are some tracks that I would love if for example the late great Dave Godin picked out half a dozen of his favourites for me to listen to.

No wonder someone called it the great big melting pot all those years ago.

Ed

[Barry]

The second love (musicaly speaking) of the late Dave Godin was country & western. I don't think any of us would doubt his credentials as a "die hard soulie".

Obviously not, but, and this harks back to my 'Keb Darge' post - I do find it funny that pivotal figures are allowed a degree of movement in their musical tastes, whereas others aren't.

Look at Sam and his left field musical fixations (not all Northern by any measure), Searling and his current R&B plays (the worst part of his show for me), Brian and his Doo Wop, Keb and his Funk etc etc.

Does this not beg the question from you die hard 'Northern or Nowt' Soulies that you may have a certain degree of musical opening (some may say, growing) up to do?

Ouch.

[Barry]

Obviously not, but, and this harks back to my 'Keb Darge' post - I do find it funny that pivotal figures are allowed a degree of movement in their musical tastes, whereas others aren't.

Look at Sam and his left field musical fixations (not all Northern by any measure), Searling and his current R&B plays (the worst part of his show for me), Brian and his Doo Wop, Keb and his Funk etc etc.

Does this not beg the question from you die hard 'Northern or Nowt' Soulies that you may have a certain degree of musical opening (some may say, growing) up to do?

Ouch.

Can't believe I didn't get a decent response to the above!?

[Ernie Andrews]

Ok here I come with Bull in a china shop approach!

The Northern scene has never said it was a black soul music genre only as you could list hundreds of records that move people sang by white folks or white folks whose intention was not to sing soul - eg; The Rainbows - help me if you can - This was never intended as a soul record but a beach record but hey it fitted the criteria of Northern soul in the 70s.

So did the Rainbows move me - yes it did - to get up and dance like a lunatic. Made me feel happy inside!

If you want an artist that sings from the soul and the words and lyrics move you - It doesnt have to be soul music.

Example - Francis Dunnery(Formerly of Rock indie band -It Bites) solo Lp Fearless - There are 2 songs on that album I want playing at my funeral because I feel great affinity with the songs and want someone to remember me through those tracks at what will be an emotional time.

Many soul records move me with my favourites being by Ernie Andrews - Who else! and on the whole its soul records that form the majority of tunes that move me in one way or another. But its a slim majoirty!

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Can black people sing Country & Western?

...Country - yes. Western - no....

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

The second love (musicaly speaking) of the late Dave Godin was country & western.

I think that you may be confusing Dave with former 'Blues And Soul' editor John Abbey, whose first and abiding love is Country music (I don't actually think that John likes Western music all that much). I knew Dave Godin very well for almost 40 years, and in all that time I never once heard him pass either positive or negative comment on any country records by country artists - even when I was working for the Country Music Association in the 90s...

As it happens, Country music is my second love after soul , and I also quite like western music too. But then, I'm not a die hard anything and I've certainly never bought or sold a record on the strength of the colour of the performer's skin.

As far as I'm concerned, any music is soul music if it touches you in the right places.

Edited May 8, 2008 by TONY ROUNCE

[Guest]

" Can Black People sing Country And Western ? "

TONY ROUNCE May 8 08, 07:21 PM

...Country - yes. Western - no....

But the real question is - " Can Blue Men Sing The Whites ? " ........

Malc Burton

Edited May 8, 2008 by Malc Burton

[Soul Shrews]

As far as I'm concerned, any music is soul music if it touches you in the right places.

Amen to that........................................that is the beat statement I have read on Soul Source or any other forum

Forget any 60s/70s or whatever else argument its all 'bout feeling

Thanks Tone !

Cheers Paul

[MikeHinNewJersey]

Can anyone actually say they are not touched by any other form of music?

I see some posts on here, as regards white people singing for example, that if turned the other way round would read as something else.

Save me the obvious, 'of course we are' posts - I don't see those posts when certain views as regards 'what is soul' are brought up on here.

I think I'm asking the impossible of people on here - which is to open up, in full view of their peers.

It's a big old quilt 'music', made up from a patchwork of many styles, colours and passion.

Does 'Soul Music' have to be put forward as a form of expression by its devotees as a form of music only able to be delivered by black vocalists?

Soul Music as a label usually means (to me) black music (vocal or instrumental).

However, there are many performances by non black artists that touch my soul, but which cannot be classified as Soul Music. For example, some opera performances can bring tears to my eyes, its not Soul Music though.

I think most people enjoy a few tunes outside the narrow confines of our chosen path, but then Soul Music covers such a broad spectrum of sounds, a lot of people can't appreciate music made 40 years ago versus music made today and vice versa.

It might be a generational thing, but I don't buy that, I buy stuff released last week, and stuff released in 1968 (as long as its on vinyl...but that's another thread).

Does that answer your question, or open up another can of worms?

[Barry]

Soul Music as a label usually means (to me) black music (vocal or instrumental).

However, there are many performances by non black artists that touch my soul, but which cannot be classified as Soul Music. For example, some opera performances can bring tears to my eyes, its not Soul Music though.

I think most people enjoy a few tunes outside the narrow confines of our chosen path, but then Soul Music covers such a broad spectrum of sounds, a lot of people can't appreciate music made 40 years ago versus music made today and vice versa.

It might be a generational thing, but I don't buy that, I buy stuff released last week, and stuff released in 1968 (as long as its on vinyl...but that's another thread).

Does that answer your question, or open up another can of worms?

YAAY!! Michael.

Just packed Big Will and Barry B off (we did a good job on the NJ boys I think ) .

[MikeHinNewJersey]

YAAY!! Michael.

Just packed Big Will and Barry B off (we did a good job on the NJ boys I think ) .

Black Sambucca?

[Barry]

Black Sambucca?

Ha ha, in one mate.

Will actually fell to sleep in the middle of one of Stu's more interesting stories - the funny thing being - Stu either didn't notice or didn't care - I'm picking Carl up at the airport tomorrow a.m., they should have a great Southport.

How you?

[Guest EType69]

I think that you may be confusing Dave with former 'Blues And Soul' editor John Abbey, whose first and abiding love is Country music (I don't actually think that John likes Western music all that much). I knew Dave Godin very well for almost 40 years, and in all that time I never once heard him pass either positive or negative comment on any country records by country artists - even when I was working for the Country Music Association in the 90s...

As it happens, Country music is my second love after soul , and I also quite like western music too. But then, I'm not a die hard anything and I've certainly never bought or sold a record on the strength of the colour of the performer's skin.

As far as I'm concerned, any music is soul music if it touches you in the right places.

I may well be confusing the the two as I was basing my view on an article I read in B&S over 30 years ago.

However, my (far from reliable) memory tells me it was the Dave Godin column. He was warning of the dangers of a 'Black Only' record store, asking how would we feel about a 'White Only' version. He stated that in his opinion Soul was.....1, American & 2, Black but there were, of course exceptions. He went on to speak of his fondness for Country music, refering to it as 'White Soul'.

If I am atributing these comments to the wrong man then apologies all round. Maybe someone out there still has copies of

B&S from the 70s & can confirm or refute my recolection.

ATB

Steve

[macca]

...Country - yes. Western - no....

How would you classify someone like Jesse Fuller, Tony?

He could be folky, bluesy, country, ragtimey, anything you like...

Not sure I understand the distinction between 'Country', and 'Western' either.

Jimmie Rodgers is considered the Father of Country Music,

yet a lot of his stuff was inspired by the Cowboy lifestyle.

'Way Out West When The Cactus Is In Bloom' is a good example.

Then there's Hank Williams, who fills my soul as much as

any Soul singer, alive or dead.

& what about the Stanley Brothers, Uncle Dave Macon, Doc Boggs, Clarence Ashley etc?

How does Mountain/Old Time/Bluegrass fit into the C&W equasion?

I've tried to listen to the polished Nashville stuff, but I prefer the rabbit

with its leg caught in gintrap kind of voice.

Harry Smith's Anthology should be a compulsory purchase in my opinion. :-)

[Paul-s]

Can white people sing the Blues? or Soul? Can black people sing Country & Western? Can I sing at all?

If you didn't know who it was singing, would it change your opinion when you found out? Does it matter?

Skin Colour is irrelevent! Some black singers sound white and vice versa (whatever that means! ). 'Soul' is present in thousands of tunes from many genres. Jazz would be an obvious example..who could possibly say that Art Pepper didn't have soul or that the 'indie', Tindersticks dont convey it in their music! Classical and Opera have it in places, depending on the listeners ability to open themselves up to the experience. To me, Diana Ross has always sounded 'soul-less', thats my opinion and I dont care what her skin colour says.

BUT, generally the voices that move me most seem to be from 'black' vocalists and thats a fact.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

How would you classify someone like Jesse Fuller, Tony?

He could be folky, bluesy, country, ragtimey, anything you like...

Not sure I understand the distinction between 'Country', and 'Western' either.

Jimmie Rodgers is considered the Father of Country Music,

yet a lot of his stuff was inspired by the Cowboy lifestyle.

'Way Out West When The Cactus Is In Bloom' is a good example.

Then there's Hank Williams, who fills my soul as much as

any Soul singer, alive or dead.

& what about the Stanley Brothers, Uncle Dave Macon, Doc Boggs, Clarence Ashley etc?

How does Mountain/Old Time/Bluegrass fit into the C&W equasion?

I've tried to listen to the polished Nashville stuff, but I prefer the rabbit

with its leg caught in gintrap kind of voice.

Harry Smith's Anthology should be a compulsory purchase in my opinion. :-)

Macca -

This isn't really the place to go on at length about 'Country And Western' - an outmoded term in itself, and one that hasn't really been used in the US since the 1960s - but in a nutshell, there never really has been a music genre called 'Country And Western'.

In the 30s and 40s, there was hillbilly music and western music. Hank Williams never made any western records, and a group like The Sons Of The Pioneers never made Hillbilly records. In the early 50s, country music wanted to dispense with the term 'hillbilly', which was by then thought of as being derogatory, so it became 'country'.

Billboard changed the name of their chart to reflect this, but coined the term 'country and western' so that various strands could all be featured on the one chart. The term stuck for a decade or so, but by the mid 60s so little authentic western music was charting that it was no longer considered a relevant term.

Some people, who don't really understand the differences between the many complex strands of Country music, still call it C & W, but it's not really right to do so, anymore than it would be to call black American music "Soul And R & B" or something like that.

Ther are still some exclusively Western acts out there - Riders In The Sky, the late Chris LeDoux etc. - but the number decreases as the years pass.

Bluegrass/old time music existed before hillbilly, and it too was lumped in with C & W for a while, but it now fits with the genre that's called 'Americana' - let's not get started on THAT one!

Jimmie Rodgers was such a unique artist when he came along that it's really not fair to call him 'Country' or 'Western' (although his influence on both genres is abundant). He also cut some heavyweight blues, and lots of out and out pop songs with corny orchestral accompaniments. I would just call Jimmie an icon of popular music and leave it at that!

Jesse Fuller is someone that I would say comes from a similar tradition - along the way he dabbled in a bit of everything, and can't really be tied in easily to any genre...

Sadly, the majority of today's best selling 'country' acts barely deserve to be called that, growing up - as most of them did - under the influence of turgid 1970s American rock acts, rather than listening to Lefty Frizzell, Ernest Tubb or Hank Williams Sr. I often tell people that mainstream country music has now turned into the music that I originally got into country music to avoid, and that's about right, so it is...

...but I've said too much already! Except to say that the first artist to ever appear on the legendary Country Music radio show the "Grand Ole Opry" was a black harmonica player called DeFord Bailey...

TONY

[Ernie Andrews]

...Country - yes. Western - no....

Western - Yes they can if they appear in Blazing Saddles

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Western - Yes they can if they appear in Blazing Saddles

...Except that Cleavon Little only actually sang Cole Porter's "I Get A Kick Out Of You" which is about as far away from western music as "Do I Love You (Indeed I Do)" is!

[Guest mel brat]

Something of a cliche now, but "It's What's In The Grooves That Counts" is still the simplest and best slogan I can think of to diffuse this age old argument!

As for the discussion re. the late Dave Godin, it WAS in fact John Abbey who often claimed to be a C&W fan. I never heard Dave mention C&W, other than in the context of Esther Phillips', Joe Tex recordings etc.

Dave incidently, though he always championed the original recordings of artists subsequently "covered" by pop/rock acts (Bessie Banks v the Moody Blues for example), abhorred the advent of the MoBo awards, regarding them as narrow and even racist of definition.

[Dave]

...Except that Cleavon Little ... bla bla bla

Edited May 14, 2008 by Dave

[Guest]

Long ago dropped the idea that a song can only be sung with 'soul' by artistes who are not of a white persuasion.

Handles Messiah, The Marriage of Figaro, Carmen....

although opera this music still makes the hair on my neck stand up, just the same as if I'm listening to, for example

Nolan Chance - Just like the weather/Denise LaSalle - A Love reputation, Artistics - This Heart of mine, or even Jos Stone.

AND I also listen to Hendrix,The Doors, Jefferson Airplane (Grace Slick...what a voice!!!!)

Music is music, and although Soul is my first love over the years I've broadend my earholes.....black soul music most deffo is not the only music out there that stirs the soul!!!!!!!!

As an aftrethought theres also also blue beat and reggae Oh Carolina/Guns of Navarone/Confucious....Toots and the Maytalls - Pressure drop, Symarip - Skinhead moon stomp, Etheopians - Train to skaville

ALL the above have pride of place in my collection...dont be deaf....open your ears...trying to quantify soul as only being able to be performed by racial stereo types is a very blinkered outlook, my ETERNAL regret is not having collected James Brown years ago when Northern fans thought Funk was Junk...with hindsight its not.

NOW this SHOULD get a few responses , probably that I'm talking Nutrabaits Biollix...any fishermen out there

[Guest]

Can anyone actually say they are not touched by any other form of music?

I see some posts on here, as regards white people singing for example, that if turned the other way round would read as something else.

Save me the obvious, 'of course we are' posts - I don't see those posts when certain views as regards 'what is soul' are brought up on here.

I think I'm asking the impossible of people on here - which is to open up, in full view of their peers.

It's a big old quilt 'music', made up from a patchwork of many styles, colours and passion.

Does 'Soul Music' have to be put forward as a form of expression by its devotees as a form of music only able to be delivered by black vocalists?

Answer ya fckn phone.. ffs

[Barry]

Answer ya fckn phone.. ffs

A Oop Pat!!

Sorry mate, phone has gone tits up, SIM in different phone, never know who's phoning me.

Love you, miss you.

Baz & Gill