Over Priced Records

[Dave Moore]

hi dave -

though i agree that this is more or less the case, you also have to wonder:

who else is going to have the records to play?

the collectors right? the phenom of a "soul dj for the sake of djing" doesnt really exist here does it? and because the "scene," if you will, is so young in this country, i doubt that anyone who is simply a "dj that plays soul music" is going to spend the money on a really rare record that no one at his local hipster club is going to know ... he could play a set of smokey robinson and likely get a better response.

people go to rare soul nights in this country to hear "rare soul." they go there to hear something that they dont know, and the amount of people turning up at these events all over the US is on a steady upswing. not everyone who appreciates hearing/learning/dancing to rare soul is going to begin collecting records. in any genre of music, collectors are a very specialized beast, and it the idea of digging through boxes of dusty records in some creepy dude's barn in the middle of idaho doesnt really appeal to everyone ... doesnt mean they dont enjoy the music.

also, i think that you will find that more and more US soul enthusiasts are starting to travel. driving from chicago to ann arbor to detroit myself the week of july 4th with about 5 people from here in seattle. should be a hoot.

Hi Kev,

Yep, I agree with all you say. The big difference is that in Europe many collectors don't collect to DJ but still collect rare records. That type of collector, (in the main) is in short supply in the US. The travellers in the US are usually travelling to DJ at gigs whereas the majority of Europeans travel but don't DJ. It's a subtle but distinct difference in the 'scenes' in my experience. For instance: are you DJing at Ann Arbor?

In UK there is a LARGE scene of collectors who have no real interest in DJing. But they are at gigs all over the country (and Europe). Hopefully as the US scene develops people will spread their wings and support each other's gigs by simply turning up, but that's way in the future I'd wager. The other main difference is that in the US many 'soul clubs' adopt a musical policy that will attract a broader musical fan. IE. 60s music that doesn't fall into the category of what would be traditionally regarded as 'soul', in order to get a larger crowd at their gigs. Nothing worse than flying 1000 miles, at considerable cost to find yourself sat on yer ass for half the night whilst the "Soul DJ" plays Brian Poole and The Tremeloes etc to his '60s stylee' audience.

The US 'scene' is developing differently to the way the UK scene did (as you'd expect), it will be interesting to see if people stay the course as they get a little older. Good luck on the trip. Good Hunting!

[pow wow mik]

I'd be wary of putting too much faith in younger generations to sustain the value of old soul records. There were a lot of young people buying records in the Acid Jazz era, nearly all of which are worth less now. and as the older generation 'retire' or sell up, a massive flood of even the rarer records could hit the market.

Like Roddy said, I never look at them as an investment. I get pleasure out of them now and make the most out of playing them, listening to them, dancing to them and socialising while doing all those. I look at them as other people do skiing, nice cars or holidays (all of which i happily do without) and pay money for them to enhance my life now, not in 30 years time.

I've paid over the odds many times in order to get a wanted record quick, usually in order to get it played out at a a do quicker. if someone's benefited from that need, then good luck to them. I dont care, I dont see why others would.

Enjoy it while it's here and f*** the future.

Edited April 24, 2008 by mik parry

[Mark W]

Interesting to see the different opinions on the way record collecting, and hence prices, will go in the future and the effect of the scene being international.

Looking at the UK scene, I think the current collectors will never be replaced by new blood in anything like the numbers needed to sustain the prices in 15-20 years from now.

Firstly I think the scene holds very little attraction to your average 18-25 year old so we are starting with numbers from a tiny pool of potential collectors. Take from that pool the number who fancy laying out 4-6 weeks wages on a record and the number shrinks again. Combine this with the fact very few of that age group have any spare cash and we are at a standstill, none of them could afford to.

What do the papers say? Your average first time house buyer is now 30. When I bought most of my rarer records, from age 20 to about 28, I was out from under my folks feet, time served tradesman hammering in the overtime to feed my vinyl cravings. The flat I was in had a mortgage for 2 years wages, that same flat today would need a mortgage for 4 years tradesman's wages. And what significant other factor in all of this has rocketed in price outwith inflation since then??? The cash just ain't there anymore for the younger collector.

At the other end of the scale there is bound to be belt tightening as older collectors start to retire, again the cash just won't be available as it was when they were working.

I couldn't comment on the scenes in mainland Europe, but would make the observation that at the time I was travelling to Mexborough and Blackburn niters on a Saturday in a car with 3 or 4 mates, there were 2 coaches leaving a nearby pub where other mates of mine were among those travelling 2-3 hours accross Scotland to go to a House club. From what I was told at the time, very few collected House records then and they cost peanuts compared to Northern. Do busy clubs equate to a healthy/wealthy record collecting scene?

I don't think there will be a crash but agree with the often repeated speculation that prices will slow significantly as more "rare" records flood the market as the older owners cash in or those who have inherrited them do. The records which I think will tumble are those along the lines of Jimmy Mack, Paris, Cecil Washington, etc which are in lots of collections but don't come up for sale all that often.

Look what happens now when an auctioned record makes a good price, a few come out of the woodwork in hope of matching that price and very often don't get anywhere near. Example; Last year JM sells Mel Williams Burn Baby Burn for about £1800,the next week one goes on Ebay for about £850.If that can happen with a rare record like that, we can see the potential for price drops if less rare records were being offered on a regular basis.

The comment earlier in the thread about the money being gone when spent on records was spot on, the record is bought and staying in the box, the cash is long gone.

Like many others, I hope there is a price drop so I can mop up my wants list, but I think there is still a long wait ahead.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Prophonics 2029]

I really don't think the scene has changed in 30 years a, weeks wages is X now as it was then and if the record costs X then that's what you are prepared to pay. If the kitchen's too hot.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Just got to say that records in this scene are vastly overpriced 90% of the time but as long as people pay those prices then it will stay that way. I've paid over the top prices loads of times so Im just as guilty as everyone else but if no one paid up records would return to a more realistic level then maybe a younger generation would take notice and get into it? Look at the charts it's peppered with 60's influenced music and it's selling big time so there is a market out there that likes the sound but whilst tunes are selling for thousands of pounds you won't get the younger crowd checking it out as they want it now not when they can afford it. CD's won't do it because there arn't enough outlets to penetrate the wider market and the exclusivity (SNOB?) factor is off putting to a younger audiance. The only way the scene can continue is to make the music more inclusive and to get rid of the elitest attitude which puts a lot of ordinary people off. Make it sexy and accesable not insular and elitest and sell lots of CD's comps or MP3's in HMV & Virgin. & Stop buying £20 records for £200!

I think Nik Mak makes some good points here.

Attitudes are changing, especially amongst under 30's, which is perfectly natural and has been happening for 100's of years. Things progress - look at the Internet for instance, without which none of this would be possible.

In a way, you have to embrace change and use it, rather than stagnating and withering with out-dated technology. The rare records are better in the hands of private collectors who will cherish them appropriately and hopefully preserve them for posterity for that eventual museum of the 8th wonder of the world - Northern Soul.

But SPREAD the music with the new technology and attract younger generations, rather then scaring them off with £500 Major Lance originals I say!

I think we should embrace the new ways of getting the music out there or risk the chance of an increasingly receding audience disappearing up it's own blind alley.

I LIKE watching kids getting off on great Northern. It gives me a buzz just watching their reactions. And they don't really give a shit HOW they hear it as long as they hear it!

Also it's nice educating people. I spent 2 hours doing just that yesterday to a U.S. film crew who were fascinated with Northern Soul!

All good. Great thread this.........

Ian D

[Keithw]

think the price of records has changed and with different styles of "Northern" prices change as well

couldnt give any R&B stuff away a good few years ago,now people are looking to buy that gritty dancer

that maybe slightly underplayed

the x-over scene just goes from strenth to strenth,people used to laugh and say,"You dont want to

be buying that modern stuff it will never be worth anything"

year right,we all know different

some records are overpriced,but when loads of people are after say "Tamala Lewis" your not

gonna get one for less than top money

also a thing to bear in mind is,honest dealers have to pay tax,insurance,etc on top of the price

they pay for the disc,and the bigger dealers (Not me Im nowhere near that) VAT

so i record that sells for 100-00 say h b barnum--hurts too much to cry

needs to cost the dealer about 50-00 to make enough to re-invest/pay tax/phone/wages/adverts

would you sell h b barnum for 50-00 ??????

[Pete S]

think the price of records has changed and with different styles of "Northern" prices change as well

couldnt give any R&B stuff away a good few years ago,now people are looking to buy that gritty dancer

that maybe slightly underplayed

the x-over scene just goes from strenth to strenth,people used to laugh and say,"You dont want to

be buying that modern stuff it will never be worth anything"

year right,we all know different

some records are overpriced,but when loads of people are after say "Tamala Lewis" your not

gonna get one for less than top money

also a thing to bear in mind is,honest dealers have to pay tax,insurance,etc on top of the price

they pay for the disc,and the bigger dealers (Not me Im nowhere near that) VAT

so i record that sells for 100-00 say h b barnum--hurts too much to cry

needs to cost the dealer about 50-00 to make enough to re-invest/pay tax/phone/wages/adverts

would you sell h b barnum for 50-00 ??????

I'd sell it for 70 and do!

Just want to point out that a lot of people are very disolusioned with ebay lately and less are using it to sell stuff, including myself. Thats probably why it doesn't look as bouyant as it did 3 or 4 years ago.

[pogo paul]

I'd sell it for 70 and do!

Just want to point out that a lot of people are very disolusioned with ebay lately and less are using it to sell stuff, including myself. Thats probably why it doesn't look as bouyant as it did 3 or 4 years ago.

My answer to the original question is Yes, i can't believe some of the dealers prices???

Probably explains when you go on their sites they still have the same records for sale a year later!

Those with auctions,beggar believe Who is paying these prices(city high flyers?/or

people on the Rich-list??? Many of the top dealers have been sitting on these records for years and bought them at a minimal rate ,some of the records i bought in a SOUL-BOWL pack(100 singles for £30)10 years ago, now sell for £100 each.

The beauty of ebay is finding a bargain that slips through un-noticed,dealers don't like it

because of the charging

These people paying thousands for the rarer discs,are not seriously buying to bury with

them? they are investing,looking for a return later on.Totally agree with many of the

opinions stated

[Mark Bicknell]

I'd sell it for 70 and do!

Just want to point out that a lot of people are very disolusioned with ebay lately and less are using it to sell stuff, including myself. Thats probably why it doesn't look as bouyant as it did 3 or 4 years ago.

Certainly right about Ebay Pete it beggers belief sometimes, I have been playing it a lot recently and it works for me as I tend to sell the shall we say lesser rare stuff, bit's and bob's out of my collection sitting in boxes which basically funds new purchases, the way I treat it is this, pull records from said boxes, check in the price guides for an idea of the value ask around for opinion, work out if I can remember how much I paid for the record in the first place maybe split the difference on the guide price and give it a go if it sells brilliant if not reduce it and try again and so it goes, some records sell other's don't.

We all know the not so rare originals that constantly show up on Ebay, Majestics, Sam Fletcher, Jack Montgomery etc. etc. the market is flooded with certain titles infact with Ebay, the established dealers and even here on Soul Source there is a constant flow of records on offer almost like a mountain of records growing all the time many of which struggle to sell for the asking price and in time the prices drop we all know that, the big titles seem to sell themselves when they come up for sale but even these seem to go sometimes for less than the book price or what some people think they are worth, I'm having a ball on Ebay and on here simply using all avenues to swap, sell, buy, trade, sure you can pick up a few quid along the way which helps to pay the bills and to fund other records, I guess as it's been said before a record is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, the market at the moment seems to be a buyers one rather than that of the seller as this can be confirmed by many if not all who sell records, how many times when you list something at 'set sale' do you get a lesser offer, we all do it and all try to get the best deal we can, Ebay is pretty good in terms of picking up the odd little gem that slips through the net and also to pick stuff up to sell on as I do from time to time, double your investment kind of deal on cheaper end records which again all goes in the pot to use for other record purchases.

I'm pretty sure the current climate is a struggle for some full time dealers but perhaps not too bad for the part timers and people who dabble as part of their own personal collecting habbit and addication to vinyl which many of us fall into, buy to sell, sell to buy which works for me.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Certainly right about Ebay Pete it beggers belief sometimes, I have been playing it a lot recently and it works for me as I tend to sell the shall we say lesser rare stuff, bit's and bob's out of my collection sitting in boxes which basically funds new purchases, the way I treat it is this, pull records from said boxes, check in the price guides for an idea of the value ask around for opinion, work out if I can remember how much I paid for the record in the first place maybe split the difference on the guide price and give it a go if it sells brilliant if not reduce it and try again and so it goes, some records sell other's don't.

We all know the not so rare originals that constantly show up on Ebay, Majestics, Sam Fletcher, Jack Montgomery etc. etc. the market is flooded with certain titles infact with Ebay, the established dealers and even here on Soul Source there is a constant flow of records on offer almost like a mountain of records growing all the time many of which struggle to sell for the asking price and in time the prices drop we all know that, the big titles seem to sell themselves when they come up for sale but even these seem to go sometimes for less than the book price or what some people think they are worth, I'm having a ball on Ebay and on here simply using all avenues to swap, sell, buy, trade, sure you can pick up a few quid along the way which helps to pay the bills and to fund other records, I guess as it's been said before a record is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, the market at the moment seems to be a buyers one rather than that of the seller as this can be confirmed by many if not all who sell records, how many times when you list something at 'set sale' do you get a lesser offer, we all do it and all try to get the best deal we can, Ebay is pretty good in terms of picking up the odd little gem that slips through the net and also to pick stuff up to sell on as I do from time to time, double your investment kind of deal on cheaper end records which again all goes in the pot to use for other record purchases.

I'm pretty sure the current climate is a struggle for some full time dealers but perhaps not too bad for the part timers and people who dabble as part of their own personal collecting habbit and addication to vinyl which many of us fall into, buy to sell, sell to buy which works for me.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Talking of which, did you ever get that Casonova 2 yet? I'm just about to load one ont' bay....

Ian D

[tim smithers]

Another thing i forgot to mention in the words below book price, do they meen below the 29 pounds for mr Manships price GUIDE ?

[Mark Bicknell]

Talking of which, did you ever get that Casonova 2 yet? I'm just about to load one ont' bay....

Ian D

Yes Ian I did, got a mint Issue off Ebay USA, thanks anyway, very decent of you to ask.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest Nik Mak]

Another thing i forgot to mention in the words below book price, do they meen below the 29 pounds for mr Manships price GUIDE ?

You just brought up something that I find confusing. I've been away from the scene for a while but I came back to it because a mate asked me to dig out my old tunes and spin at his gig (Joenna/Railway station). Because I had a great time playing again I thought I'd pick up a few trax that I've wanted for years but never had the money to buy them! So I hit the internet and had a cruise to see what was out there. I really couldn't beleive it records that back in the day cost a few quid are now going for bucket loads of cash but once you buy these 'Rare' tunes you try and sell them for what you paid off of a dealer and you get laughed at! It seems to me that one dealer is governing the whole market because practically every advert states 'below book price' and from what I can see there is only one book! Some of the tunes that these dealers sell just arn't that rare take The Epitome of Sound on Sandbag every dj I know and his wife has that tune but it 'Books' at @ £200 no way is that correct. I've got a Spyder Turner MGM Demo and I've only seen a handfull of them over the years but it 'Books' at £100 that just doesn't make sense? Then there are those tunes that are reaching thousands of pounds and when you listen to them they are Do Wop rock n roll tunes? Plus the myth behind the demo to issue debate. Most records back in the sixties came out as demos first these were sent out to all the record stations and the press then they were given out to the DJ's (Not many of those back then). Issues were put out for general release but if it didn't sell they were recalled/not distributed and trashed to make other records. So I reckon nine times out of ten an issue is going to be much much rarer than a demo because demos could be pressed up in their hundreds(500 to 1000) where as an issue could be down to just a few hundred if it didn't sell less than that if it didn't get out of the state it came from! The only time this changes is if the tune had some sort of minor (or major) success then record shops would order up front on the buzz and get left with boxes of tunes if it didn't go nationaly. That's where a demo does become a rare item and should out bid an issue. ut how mant real hard core Northern tunes we're that successful back then?

[Guest andyrattigan]

I tend not to spend over £100 for a 45 as I just cant afford it.

One of the things I've noticed is that a lot of the £30-100 records as priced by the bigger dealers can often be picked up from an average allnighter punter/collector for a fraction of the price.

I've picked up quite a few records in this price range at between 30-60% of the prices asked and set by bigger dealers.

[paultp]

I'd sell it for 70 and do!

Just want to point out that a lot of people are very disolusioned with ebay lately and less are using it to sell stuff, including myself. Thats probably why it doesn't look as bouyant as it did 3 or 4 years ago.

Very true, I wouldn't auction a really good record on eBay these days cos it just costs too much, it's a good place to get rid of smaller stuff though providing you are happy with selling at the price that you started the listing at (i.e. low).

No way would I sell stuff on eBay for 99p though, after listing fees, selling fees and then paypal fees you will be lucky to end up with 50p

The US sellers (and many others) have now upped their start prices to ensure that they don't sell 30-50 quid records for 5 dollars and to cover higher eBay fees.

It is actually turning into what any regular auction house is, somewhere to get a bargain possibly and somewhere to get a quick sale at any price. Good stuff will find it's true price but the seller will pay a hefty fee for having stuff sold in this way.

Cheers

Paul

[Ernie Andrews]

I just made an arse of myself in the sales section by querying the price of a record I thought was £20

The seller is selling for 3x that- I wanted to know how the price had shifted so much in the space of months.

I got interesting reactions but it begs the question is any record worth any price and do guides actually have any relevance given the above.

Could we not have a section called price and list a record with 4 price options eg: 10-30 30-75 over 100 & over 300 or similar prices based on known recent sales. Then get everyone or whoever does to vote on it therefore creating a poll! This is what they do on Rivals.net which is about football

It would also give an indication of peoples views on the value of a particular record. We could then query why has a record gone up so much in price or down so much (Validation)

Am I just off my head or does anyone think this could be trialled for a couple of months to see how it goes?