British Collecting

[Harry Crosby]

As a lad back in the seveties when i first started on the long road of record collecting, i used to love to see boxes of british stuff, lovely sight sets of stateside demo`s, would like to start a thread on the history of this side of collecting, never had many british things myself, at one time it was the way to collect, and british releases were far more desirable than the american side of things, the few questions i`d like to ask are-Are british records apart from the ones wrote and released only over here considered re-issues, Are labels like GRAPEVINE, DESTINY, INFERNO, considered as british collectables,-wich are the holy grail of BRITISH COLLECTING we all know the american counterparts but would lik to know what these records are, Is the british collecting scene still as healthy today as it was if not more,-As in the states do we feel there is still more british records to be found and would that music fit into todays mainly american music scene, just thought this might be an intresting thread CHEERS HARRY

[Harry Crosby]

Think i may have posted this in the wrong section, can it be moved to ALL ABOUT SOUL please

[Harry Crosby]

Shall i get me coat then?

[ChrisOD1964]

Shall i get me coat then?

[funkyfeet]

I collect as many of the UK releases as I can, no snob value from me. Lots of the UK releases are ten times rarer than the US copy, examples Frankie & The Classicals, Darrow Fletcher, just a couple of examples. The sound quality is better due to better quality vinyl then US, plus no horrible styrene either. Plus if you can't own a US original what's wrong with owning a UK one.

Mark @ Funkyfeet

[Chris L]

I collect as many of the UK releases as I can, no snob value from me. Lots of the UK releases are ten times rarer than the US copy, examples Frankie & The Classicals, Darrow Fletcher, just a couple of examples. The sound quality is better due to better quality vinyl then US, plus no horrible styrene either. Plus if you can't own a US original what's wrong with owning a UK one.

Mark @ Funkyfeet

Too true, I own 2 copies of Johnny Williams - Little misunderdstanding on Bashie, the Contempo

release if far better quality, much nicer to listen to, little chinstroking cred though

Chris L

[Harry Crosby]

Too true, I own 2 copies of Johnny Williams - Little misunderdstanding on Bashie, the Contempo

release if far better quality, much nicer to listen to, little chinstroking cred though

Chris L

yeh understand that my mate has a copy of frankie & johnny on decca and the sound seems to be a lot louder than the hickory release, lovely looking record too

[Liamgp]

I found it quite odd when I started collecting soul in earnest in the mid 80s that a lot of dealers at non-soul record fairs seemed to value the UK releases lower then their american counterparts. Guess they thought the US records had more rarity or were more in demand. Who knows? Net result was that I ended up with all sorts of stuff at excellent prices. One heavy metal type-bloke sold me the Marvelletes - I'll Keep Holding On On, Brenda Holloway - When I'm Gone, Jackie Edwards - I Feel So Bad, Solomon Burke - Everybody Needs Somebody Atlantic demo and a red/white demo of The Impressions - Woman's Got Soul for £20! Talk about being gobsmacked... Used to find a lot of Sue stuff at the local charity shops then too. Mostly fairly worn out but such a pretty label to look at going round and round...

[Ezzie Brown]

just sold last few months EVIL ONE SAPFIRRES ON HMV AND LOU JOHNSON UNSATISFIED>>>>IWAS SAD TO SEE THEM GO.........AND THE BUYERS SNAPPED THEM UP.............LOTS OF PEOPLE STILL WANT UK RELEASES...........they always make you take an interest when u come across them in the middle of bag of us sales, and the interest in uk stuff on the mod and beat /phyche and reggae scene is till very strong. as far as i can see via records on e bay. ezzie

[Harry Crosby]

I found it quite odd when I started collecting soul in earnest in the mid 80s that a lot of dealers at non-soul record fairs seemed to value the UK releases lower then their american counterparts. Guess they thought the US records had more rarity or were more in demand. Who knows? Net result was that I ended up with all sorts of stuff at excellent prices. One heavy metal type-bloke sold me the Marvelletes - I'll Keep Holding On On, Brenda Holloway - When I'm Gone, Jackie Edwards - I Feel So Bad, Solomon Burke - Everybody Needs Somebody Atlantic demo and a red/white demo of The Impressions - Woman's Got Soul for £20! Talk about being gobsmacked... Used to find a lot of Sue stuff at the local charity shops then too. Mostly fairly worn out but such a pretty label to look at going round and round...

Had a few finds myself nothing serious though and as you say its finding the condition, that was allways the key factor with the british buyers as i suppose it is with both british & american now especially on the big price records, just at one time in the record bars you could allways hear the question coming over your shoulder as you were looking "GOT ANY BRITISH MATE" just wondered if the collecting scene for BRITISH RELEASES was still the same or has it dropped because of the obvious time scale of the scene now and limited amounts of british records

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Not all 1960s UK pressed soul 45s are worth collecting. Most 'red' Atlantics sound absolutely horrible when compared to their US equivalents on Atco, Stax, Jotis etc (and, of course, Atlantic itself). They were all dubbed from disc and the mastering engineer would often let the needle get too hot, thereby causing the tracks to distort (Dee Dee Sharp's wonderful "My Best Friend's Man" being a classic case of something that, on UK Atlantic, is distorted to the point of unlistenability). Not a criticism that could ever be levelled at a Black Atlantic, which (I think) were all manufactured from tape sources.

Everything on Action was dubbed from disc, and not always from the best condition discs either. Al Green(e)'s "Don't Hurt Me No More" actually has built in 'cue burn' at the start, and Della Humphrey's "Don't Make The Good Girls Go Bad" has acquired some sort of high pitched squeak throughout that the Arctic pressing mercifully lacks. A fair few of the Action 45s are mastered off centre, too, and then pressed off centre to make the 'wowing' even more noticeable.

But even though there are some UK labels where I'd always take the US copy in preference, I'd mostly rather have it 'On British' whenever the option presents itself.

[Pete S]

just sold last few months EVIL ONE SAPFIRRES ON HMV AND LOU JOHNSON UNSATISFIED>>>>IWAS SAD TO SEE THEM GO.........AND THE BUYERS SNAPPED THEM UP.............LOTS OF PEOPLE STILL WANT UK RELEASES...........they always make you take an interest when u come across them in the middle of bag of us sales, and the interest in uk stuff on the mod and beat /phyche and reggae scene is till very strong. as far as i can see via records on e bay. ezzie

Did you get what you were asking for Lou Johnson because I nearly fainted when I saw your price, I struggled to get 70 quid for mine end of last year and ended up taking £60 for it, in lovely nick too. £75 is top whack price on an issue of that, surely.

[Ezzie Brown]

Not all 1960s UK pressed soul 45s are worth collecting. Most 'red' Atlantics sound absolutely horrible when compared to their US equivalents on Atco, Stax, Jotis etc (and, of course, Atlantic itself). They were all dubbed from disc and the mastering engineer would often let the needle get too hot, thereby causing the tracks to distort (Dee Dee Sharp's wonderful "My Best Friend's Man" being a classic case of something that, on UK Atlantic, is distorted to the point of unlistenability). Not a criticism that could ever be levelled at a Black Atlantic, which (I think) were all manufactured from tape sources.

Everything on Action was dubbed from disc, and not always from the best condition discs either. Al Green(e)'s "Don't Hurt Me No More" actually has built in 'cue burn' at the start, and Della Humphrey's "Don't Make The Good Girls Go Bad" has acquired some sort of high pitched squeak throughout that the Arctic pressing mercifully lacks. A fair few of the Action 45s are mastered off centre, too, and then pressed off centre to make the 'wowing' even more noticeable.

But even though there are some UK labels where I'd always take the US copy in preference, I'd mostly rather have it 'On British' whenever the option presents itself.

TONY IF U HAVE WRITEN A BOOK ABOUT MUSIC RECORDINGetc, TELL ME HOW TO GET IT>>IF U HAVENT YOU ARE A MINE OF INFORMATION!!! ezzie

[Nickinstoke]

When I started collecting, imports were very few and far between, and the UK release was the accepted norm. US releases that hadn't been released in the UK were highly desirable ("Call on me", "Out on the floor", "6x6") but imports of records that had a UK release were generaly regarded as inferior in some way. Of course we had no idea then just how much great music had failed to get released over here, and while I still prefer the UK release in one exists, I wouldn't be daft enough to collect only British. However, I think a lot of older collectors favour British over US for these reasons.

I'm amazed at some of the stuff that got put out on British almost in secret - I was listening to Morris Vaughan on Fontana yesterday and wondered why they'd bother putting out something that had no chance of selling, then not bothered to tell anyone about it. There must be loads of examples. I bet Mr Rounce knows some stories about these no-hope British releases.

Nick

[Liamgp]

Not all 1960s UK pressed soul 45s are worth collecting. Most 'red' Atlantics sound absolutely horrible when compared to their US equivalents on Atco, Stax, Jotis etc (and, of course, Atlantic itself). They were all dubbed from disc and the mastering engineer would often let the needle get too hot, thereby causing the tracks to distort (Dee Dee Sharp's wonderful "My Best Friend's Man" being a classic case of something that, on UK Atlantic, is distorted to the point of unlistenability). Not a criticism that could ever be levelled at a Black Atlantic, which (I think) were all manufactured from tape sources.

Everything on Action was dubbed from disc, and not always from the best condition discs either. Al Green(e)'s "Don't Hurt Me No More" actually has built in 'cue burn' at the start, and Della Humphrey's "Don't Make The Good Girls Go Bad" has acquired some sort of high pitched squeak throughout that the Arctic pressing mercifully lacks. A fair few of the Action 45s are mastered off centre, too, and then pressed off centre to make the 'wowing' even more noticeable.

But even though there are some UK labels where I'd always take the US copy in preference, I'd mostly rather have it 'On British' whenever the option presents itself.

Too right. Remember getting a copy of 'Sock it to 'em JB' on red Atlantic which both sounded abysmal AND wowed about the deck like a hula-hoop champion after eight pints. Unlistenable. It ended up as a flowerpot for my mum!

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

When I started collecting, imports were very few and far between, and the UK release was the accepted norm. US releases that hadn't been released in the UK were highly desirable ("Call on me", "Out on the floor", "6x6") but imports of records that had a UK release were generaly regarded as inferior in some way. Of course we had no idea then just how much great music had failed to get released over here, and while I still prefer the UK release in one exists, I wouldn't be daft enough to collect only British. However, I think a lot of older collectors favour British over US for these reasons.

I'm amazed at some of the stuff that got put out on British almost in secret - I was listening to Morris Vaughan on Fontana yesterday and wondered why they'd bother putting out something that had no chance of selling, then not bothered to tell anyone about it. There must be loads of examples. I bet Mr Rounce knows some stories about these no-hope British releases.

Nick

One of my favourite 'no hopers' is Joe Odom's southern soul gem "It's In Your Power" which came out here on Capitol in 1969 (it was on 1-2-3 in the USA). I can remember that the forthcoming release information came through in excatly the same envelope, from EMI, as a notification that it was among a bunch of records that were due to be deleted three weeks later!

Makes you wonder why they bothered - although I think it's a classic, so I'm glad they did!

[Harry Crosby]

One of my favourite 'no hopers' is Joe Odom's southern soul gem "It's In Your Power" which came out here on Capitol in 1969 (it was on 1-2-3 in the USA). I can remember that the forthcoming release information came through in excatly the same envelope, from EMI, as a notification that it was among a bunch of records that were due to be deleted three weeks later!

Makes you wonder why they bothered - although I think it's a classic, so I'm glad they did!

So what would you call the HOLLY GRAIL of british collectable northern/soul music?

[Pete S]

So what would you call the HOLLY GRAIL of british collectable northern/soul music?

I don't think there are any really. When I was collecting British - and I was fanatical - I had everything I wanted except one (the last record mentioned here). If you've got the money you can get any UK record except for maybe something that really is known by only a handful of copies (e.g. ben E King - Can't Break The News - Atlantic demo). The first really rare one I turned up was the stock copy of Dennis D'Ell, and for a time it was only the second ever, but I've got one sitting in a box here right now and three or four have gone via ebay. Darrell Banks on London is no rarer than a Benny Spellman or a Lou Johnson London demo. I personally think the rarest UK Northern 45 is the Billy Harner instrumental on Kama Sutra.

[Nickinstoke]

So what would you call the HOLLY GRAIL of british collectable northern/soul music?

I'm not sure if there's a single Holy Grail. Timi Yuro is probably the highest price Northern item right now, but some of the early Motowns (Mike & the Modifiers, Valadiers) probably fetch even more, and are rare as hen's teeth

[Harry Crosby]

I'm not sure if there's a single Holy Grail. Timi Yuro is probably the highest price Northern item right now, but some of the early Motowns (Mike & the Modifiers, Valadiers) probably fetch even more, and are rare as hen's teeth

don`t know about now but i allways rememer my mate selling up because he couldn`t get a RUFUS LUMLY-STATESIDE DEMO many years ago, thik that was the one

[Guest Roddy]

there is a guy in carlilse i think his name is George has an awesome Brittish collection I dont know if he is a member on here but if you want info Harry he would be well worth contacting.

[De-to]

tony middleton,to the ends of the earth on uk polydor-bm56704,demo was/is lots of £££££ years ago not sure what its worth now,

[Baz Atkinson]

I am more interested in british stuff as I get older and perhaps a bit wiser lol.I am definetly not up on sixties releases but i have picked up alot of nice seventies stuff recently and not been dissapointed at all!Alot of seventies disco releases have immensly soulful flip sides ,one for example is joe tex bump no more ,[flip is superb],the george mc rae releses on jay boy sport some great flips,and a s for jay boy itself well quality all the way!RCA stuff and SALSOUL,ACTION dominate alot of my thinking as does seventies Atlantic stuff,to me I regret only getting into this kind of stuff 2-3 years ago,I think I have missed out big style!

BAZ A

[De-to]

tony middleton,to the ends of the earth on uk polydor-bm56704,demo was/is lots of £££££ years ago not sure what its worth now,

the issue was also expensive years ago,

[Harry Crosby]

there is a guy in carlilse i think his name is George has an awesome Brittish collection I dont know if he is a member on here but if you want info Harry he would be well worth contacting.

Cheers roddy, my old matey CHRIS HOLMES from york has a fantastic british collection, just fascinating to hear other peoples views on the british collecting side of things. thanks again roddy

[ChrisOD1964]

the issue was also expensive years ago,

this might answer you`r question

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php...p;x=30&y=10

chris

Edited April 14, 2008 by ChrisOD1964

[Dave Moore]

I don't think there are any really. When I was collecting British - and I was fanatical - I had everything I wanted except one (the last record mentioned here). If you've got the money you can get any UK record except for maybe something that really is known by only a handful of copies (e.g. ben E King - Can't Break The News - Atlantic demo). The first really rare one I turned up was the stock copy of Dennis D'Ell, and for a time it was only the second ever, but I've got one sitting in a box here right now and three or four have gone via ebay. Darrell Banks on London is no rarer than a Benny Spellman or a Lou Johnson London demo. I personally think the rarest UK Northern 45 is the Billy Harner instrumental on Kama Sutra.

Had most UK things over the years. I'd agree with Pete - Billy Harner - Probably the toughest in my experience although the MGM Demo of Roy Hamilton proved elusive for a lo...o...o...n...g time too. Also Dave Fergie reckons a mint copy of Little Hank is also up there.

[De-to]

I'm not sure if there's a single Holy Grail. Timi Yuro is probably the highest price Northern item right now, but some of the early Motowns (Mike & the Modifiers, Valadiers) probably fetch even more, and are rare as hen's teeth

i agree nick,mike+mods-oriole,1775.valadiers,oriole,1809.eddie holland,oriole1808

all big money for these uk issues even more on demos!!!,

[Pete S]

i agree nick,mike+mods-oriole,1775.valadiers,oriole,1809.eddie holland,oriole1808

all big money for these uk issues even more on demos!!!,

Big money but rarely sell for book prices - I remember listing The Valdiers and The Modifiers and neither making the £400 reserve. (That was a weird find - friend bought a 50 box of records off a bloke in Bridgnorth - every single was on the Oriole label!)

[Pete S]

tony middleton,to the ends of the earth on uk polydor-bm56704,demo was/is lots of £££££ years ago not sure what its worth now,

In 2001 someone I knew bought this at a boot sale for 50p, the demo I mean, the terrible thing is, I'd been at the same boot sale and not looked at the records that this particular seller had, because she was an old lady of about 75 and I thought they'd be the usual Ken Dodd and Val Doonicans, why she had TM in there, goodness knows. So he sold it to me the same day for £200 and I sold it to Mick Smith for £300 the day after! Nowadays - I'd say £300 issue £400 demo

[Harry Crosby]

Big money but rarely sell for book prices - I remember listing The Valdiers and The Modifiers and neither making the £400 reserve. (That was a weird find - friend bought a 50 box of records off a bloke in Bridgnorth - every single was on the Oriole label!)

Intresting stuff pete, do you think the british northern soul market is still as popular as it was as ive said at one time it was very much so just never seem to see boxes of british stuff anymore in record bars, as you touched on earlier with lou johnson i myself struggled to get £50 for one only a year ago, where as you`d have thought the prices would have increased because of the limited market

[De-to]

Big money but rarely sell for book prices - I remember listing The Valdiers and The Modifiers and neither making the £400 reserve. (That was a weird find - friend bought a 50 box of records off a bloke in Bridgnorth - every single was on the Oriole label!)

pete,dont think theres much else on uk oriole,the donays,oriole-1770 not sure what its worth these days but there is quite a lot of cr*p on the oriole label not ever seen a listing though,

[De-to]

pete,dont think theres much else on uk oriole,the donays,oriole-1770 not sure what its worth these days but there is quite a lot of cr*p on the oriole label not ever seen a listing though,

nice bit of info on this woolys history website,embassy/oriole records set up some nice old pics here,

https://museum.woolworths.co.uk/1950s-embassyrecords.htm

[Pete S]

pete,dont think theres much else on uk oriole,the donays,oriole-1770 not sure what its worth these days but there is quite a lot of cr*p on the oriole label not ever seen a listing though,

I don't think there's much to be honest, there's the Susan Singer record (which I had on a lovely South African label with tri centre, again, boot sale job), like you say, The Donays (Yvonne Vernee on vocals?), I don't think there's much in the way of rare beat either as they folded in late 64 or thereabouts.

[Pete S]

pete,dont think theres much else on uk oriole,the donays,oriole-1770 not sure what its worth these days but there is quite a lot of cr*p on the oriole label not ever seen a listing though,

Just thought of another one on Oriole, Jackie Trent doing a version of The One Who Really Loves You, it's actually pretty good and very scarce. There's also a rare Joe Meek thing on the label, The Dowlands?

[Nickinstoke]

Just thought of another one on Oriole, Jackie Trent doing a version of The One Who Really Loves You, it's actually pretty good and very scarce. There's also a rare Joe Meek thing on the label, The Dowlands?

There's Bertha Tillman "Oh my angel/Lovin' time" on Oriole 1746 - a great early soul ballad with an R&B dancer on the flip, must be pretty scarce (anyone ever seen an issue or is it demo-only?). And don't forget the mighty Hugo Montenegro doing "Sherry", even got booted on OOTP.

Nick

[De-to]

heres bertha tillman 45,loving time,on youtube,think it came out in the usa on the same label as the donays,brent records

[De-to]

another motown 45 that i think is still big bucks is,jamie,eddie holland,uk fontana-h387

[Steve G]

What about a demo of Huey Smith & Clowns, think that's pretty rare. Got it from Mick Smith a while back.

[Wilxy]

Good thread Harry,as a collector since the mid seventies,my weakness has always been "pigeon holeing", (not a perversion before "I set hares running" I must add), and have been through various collecting habits whilst unfortunately for varying financial reasons not maintaining a particular trait ! Uk 45's in particular in my Yate days were my "forte" and I remember fondly the Welsh record shops I plundered especially in the valley towns,with great aplomb . I remember one of my best finds however was over the border in Gloucester, when I decimated the entire JayBoy/ President portfolio in one hit,by pure chance,and from a purely collecting perspective was well chuffed, however nowadays I must say that my weakness is US biased with particular favour being all things Detroit Michigan, however I do love those UK demos....whatever colour the "A" may be...wilxy

[De-to]

There's Bertha Tillman "Oh my angel/Lovin' time" on Oriole 1746 - a great early soul ballad with an R&B dancer on the flip, must be pretty scarce (anyone ever seen an issue or is it demo-only?). And don't forget the mighty Hugo Montenegro doing "Sherry", even got booted on OOTP.

Nick

heres oh my angel,bertha tillman,soundclip,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SrA28LgTNA

[Ernie Andrews]

So what would you call the HOLLY GRAIL of british collectable northern/soul music?

For me its got to be Helena ferguson - My terms on London

When I was young I used to collect the Compass label and the Uk issues and this was regarded as one of the rarest with London saying only 67 copies were sold and very few demos were sent out!

[Ian Dewhirst]

I know it's a 70's item, but I've always thought that Larry Saunders "On The Real Side" on a red London promo is difficult......

Ian D

[Ady Potts]

Here's a strange one. Nella Dodds - come see about me - Pye test press.

The stamped matrix is 1-45-1281A-1T, the normal demo ends with 1S. The drum intro on the test press is very loud compared to the normal one, plus the whole song is louder as well.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Larry Saunders London Promo - much rarer then people think......

R.B. Greaves "Let's Try It Again" UK Pye Acetate - never released

R.B. Greaves Orchestra "Your Place Or Mine" - never released

Ian D

[Wiganer1]

Larry Saunders London Promo - much rarer then people think......

R.B. Greaves "Let's Try It Again" UK Pye Acetate - never released

R.B. Greaves Orchestra "Your Place Or Mine" - never released

Ian D

==========

hi ian

rb greaves came out on UK TC records...old wigan/mecca spin i believe.

.

ill dig it out for you...

Edited April 14, 2008 by wiganer1

[Ian Dewhirst]

==========

hi ian

rb greaves came out on UK TC records...old wigan/mecca spin

ill dig it out for you...

What???!!!??

Are you sure? You mean 20th Century don'tcha?

If it did I've never ever seen one! US for sure, but never on UK to my knowledge. I'm intrigued now........

Ian D

[AlanB]

Over the last year I've noted a big jump in what UK Motown TMG 500 and low 600 numbers have been going for on eBay. Crazy prices in many cases IMO. Must be more people chasing them for some reason!

Alan

[Wiganer1]

What???!!!??

Are you sure? You mean 20th Century don'tcha?

If it did I've never ever seen one! US for sure, but never on UK to my knowledge. I'm intrigued now........

Ian D

==

yes ian...ill check and put up a scan..ure probably right

. could have swore its in my uk box..

[Ian Dewhirst]

==

yes ian...ill check and put up a scan..ure probably right

. could have swore its in my uk box..

Phew. What're you trying to do here? Give me a heart attack or something LOL....

Import US 45 only I think......

Ian D