Counterfiet 45s

[cloth ears]

talking with dave rimmer last night i mentioned this thought that ive had for a while now , so lets see what you think!!!!

If the counterfieters can copy top of the range items like rolex watches and louis vutton hand bags almost to the point that even they have trouble telling them apart, what about records?

we all know pressings and look a likes dont cost very much at all to produce say 50p each for this excercise .

so if you offered them $1000. each for 10 copies of the parliaments on cabell as long as they were indistinguishable from the original how would we know? someone must be at it, the amount of money to be made tells you that.

ponder that!!!!!

[Jumpinjoan]

Jeez... been saying this for bloody ages!

[Ernie Andrews]

talking with dave rimmer last night i mentioned this thought that ive had for a while now , so lets see what you think!!!!

If the counterfieters can copy top of the range items like rolex watches and louis vutton hand bags almost to the point that even they have trouble telling them apart, what about records?

we all know pressings and look a likes dont cost very much at all to produce say 50p each for this excercise .

so if you offered them $1000. each for 10 copies of the parliaments on cabell as long as they were indistinguishable from the original how would we know? someone must be at it, the amount of money to be made tells you that.

ponder that!!!!!

Ive been saying this for years - With the technology available you can copy anything including Matrix stamps.

the tool required to do this cost no more than £20-£30 from a tool maker who makes chasing stamps.

The really good example of the technooly at work here is the Frederick Hymes III - These were pressed up exactly like the original by the label owner but reputable dealers here in the Uk have been passing them off as originals when they knew they were not . I got it from the horses mouth who told me what I have just quoted and then he told me in his US accent to "WIse UP" this is business!

[Harry Crosby]

I started a thread about this a couple of months ago as i`d been involved in quite a few conversations on this subject, the outcome to that thread was, different inks used in the sixties that are no longer available, types of plastics used, and different papers used for labels, ive been under the impression this is happening for a while now, if some of the finest art from the 16th, 17th century can be forged and fool the experts, why not records? we live in the age of super technology, and i suppose as long as the market isn`t flooded all at once, it could be a very lucrative buisness, with the price of some of the records today

[Steve G]

Ive been saying this for years - With the technology available you can copy anything including Matrix stamps.

the tool required to do this cost no more than £20-£30 from a tool maker who makes chasing stamps.

The really good example of the technooly at work here is the Frederick Hymes III - These were pressed up exactly like the original by the label owner but reputable dealers here in the Uk have been passing them off as originals when they knew they were not . I got it from the horses mouth who told me what I have just quoted and then he told me in his US accent to "WIse UP" this is business!

But we've (me and others) been banging on about those Frederick Hymes being "2nd issues" for years - a shame a few more people don't listen to what they're told Steve

[Winsford Soul]

talking with dave rimmer last night i mentioned this thought that ive had for a while now , so lets see what you think!!!!

If the counterfieters can copy top of the range items like rolex watches and louis vutton hand bags almost to the point that even they have trouble telling them apart, what about records?

we all know pressings and look a likes dont cost very much at all to produce say 50p each for this excercise .

so if you offered them $1000. each for 10 copies of the parliaments on cabell as long as they were indistinguishable from the original how would we know? someone must be at it, the amount of money to be made tells you that.

ponder that!!!!!

Dave. A few years back at Sheridans a Jimmy Mack, My world is on fire turned up in mint condition. A record i,ve been after for ever and i aint never seen a mint one. Anyway the guy wanted £450 which was tempting until about 1hour later another guy walked in with another mint one. They had to be counterfiet. So like a good little person i said no thanks.Thats the only example i,ve come across.

Steve

[Ernie Andrews]

But we've (me and others) been banging on about those Frederick Hymes being "2nd issues" for years - a shame a few more people don't listen to what they're told Steve

So Why do reputable dealers still sell them as originals and how can John Manship drop his price from £1000 in his 2001/2002 guide to £200 when hardly any originals have turned up

Would someone please explain that!

[Jumpinjoan]

Hold on tight people... its going to get mighty bumpy

[Harry Crosby]

I was told some ten years ago that the states were dry! look at the amount of big ticket records that are turning up on sales list auctions on a disturbingly regular basis

[Steve G]

So Why do reputable dealers still sell them as originals

they might not know the difference not all dealers are knowledgable despite the aurra some of them give off - but if you believe that is happening tell us who? Presumably someone with a Las Vegas connection?

Edited April 13, 2008 by Steve G

[Ernie Andrews]

they might not know the difference not all dealers are knowledgable despite the aurra some of them give off - but if you believe that is happening tell us who? Presumably someone with a Las Vegas connection?

Dont want to get myself in bother here as the person said UK dealers.

The question I want answering is by John Manship himself is "How can he drop the value of the the FHIII record from £1000 to £200 in 2 price guides when hardly any originals have turned up. If your reading this John could you please explain it for us- many thanks in anticipation

Edited April 13, 2008 by Ernie Andrews

[pikeys dog]

If the counterfieters can copy top of the range items like rolex watches and louis vutton hand bags almost to the point that even they have trouble telling them apart, what about records?

Do they not expect to sell hundreds if not thousands of these knock offs?

Economies of scale... hardly seems worth producing ten copies of a 45, when the real money is in bent DVDs, Assault rifles, Cocaine and the smuggling of child prostitutes?

[Modernsoulsucks]

Dave. A few years back at Sheridans a Jimmy Mack, My world is on fire turned up in mint condition. A record i,ve been after for ever and i aint never seen a mint one. Anyway the guy wanted £450 which was tempting until about 1hour later another guy walked in with another mint one. They had to be counterfiet. So like a good little person i said no thanks.Thats the only example i,ve come across.

Steve

With all due respect this is tosh. Mine's Mint and Im sure there's a couple more round here within 10 minutes walk, albeit maybe not Mint.

Unless you are certain those at Sheridan's were boots I think it's highly likely that 2 can turn up on the same night. Some of these rare 45s are not that rare. It's just the demand and number of people who collect so that most disappear into collections.

ROD

[Ernie Andrews]

Do they not expect to sell hundreds if not thousands of these knock offs?

Economies of scale... hardly seems worth producing ten copies of a 45, when the real money is in bent DVDs, Assault rifles, Cocaine and the smuggling of child prostitutes?

Yes Woof - They do want to sell hundreds at a couple every month or so and if you start at £500 and reduce over the period you can make quite a bit of dosh especially if you set up a few names on ebay and punt out tunes under different IDs

Remember in the old days you had to press a couple of hundred otherwise the plant wasnt interested - Now you can do 5 copies for $2 each because technology is so cheap to produce the goods!

Edited April 13, 2008 by Ernie Andrews

[boba]

Yes Woof - They do want to sell hundreds at a couple every month or so and if you start at £500 and reduce over the period you can make quite a bit of dosh especially if you set up a few names on ebay and punt out tunes under different IDs

Remember in the old days you had to press a couple of hundred otherwise the plant wasnt interested - Now you can do 5 copies for $2 each because technology is so cheap to produce the goods!

Can you clarify exactly what you are talking about? Technology is getting better all the time, but not RECORD PRESSING TECHNOLOGY, which is nearly dead. Who can press 5 copies for $2 each? If anything, it's harder to get a record pressed now, not easier.

[Steve G]

Yes Woof - They do want to sell hundreds at a couple every month or so and if you start at £500 and reduce over the period you can make quite a bit of dosh especially if you set up a few names on ebay and punt out tunes under different IDs

Remember in the old days you had to press a couple of hundred otherwise the plant wasnt interested - Now you can do 5 copies for $2 each because technology is so cheap to produce the goods!

So what records do you think this has happened to?

We know the Fred Hymes III has a second press and it's different from the original. You can still find minty stuff - like the guy that found all those 4 Tracks on Maningo (the so called "25 or so" ). The internet has opened it all up a bit and some of the old record guys are dying. I still reckon I can tell a new press from a legit 60s / 70s release, even if it's had talc put on it, and been rubbed on the carpet to make it look old.

[Ernie Andrews]

Can you clarify exactly what you are talking about? Technology is getting better all the time, but not RECORD PRESSING TECHNOLOGY, which is nearly dead. Who can press 5 copies for $2 each? If anything, it's harder to get a record pressed now, not easier.

When I met Peter Brown in new York 3 years ago I asked about pressing records and said dont you have to have minumum number? He said no he goes in weekly to get a track pressed up - maybe 5 or 10 or 50 copies and they cost $2.00 each to make and he was selling them to local New York shops for $4- I know I was there when he was in the shop selling them. So although I personally havnt been in to get some pressed - I dont Disbelive a close associate of Patrick Adams when he tells me how he makes his living these days.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Ernie Andrews

[Guest covmart]

I was told some ten years ago that the states were dry! look at the amount of big ticket records that are turning up on sales list auctions on a disturbingly regular basis

Harry,

I'm not questioning your statement at all but would like to offer up some different perspective for why rareties ar showing up on a more regular basis. You see it in in all collectible fields - prices rise and the rare stuff comes out of the woodworks. People want to cash in. With the ever increasing amount of information at hand, like this site, price guides, etc. people are more aware of what they have and what its worth. Most of us USA folks have little knowledge and no participation in the scene, so have no local knowledge of values. Heck, when I moved to the States 27 years ago with all my records I knew what they were worth and that was maybe a couple of quid each, if that. While I don't have and haven't found any 'big ticket' things, I'm a lot more aware of values than I ever was.

Like I said, in all collectible fields, when prices rise the rare stuff come out. Also true is that when prices rise, the rare stuff also gets counterfeited, so I don't doubt for a minute that the scumbags are at work.

[Ian Dewhirst]

When I met Peter Brown in new York 3 years ago I asked about pressing records and said dont you have to have minumum number? He said no he goes in weekly to get a track pressed up - maybe 5 or 10 or 50 copies and they cost $2.00 each to make and he was selling them to local New York shops for $4- I know I was there when he was in the shop selling them. So although I personally havnt been in to get some pressed - I dont Disbelive a close associate of Patrick Adams when he tells me how he makes his living these days.

True. Peter's the king at bootlegging his own records LOL

Last time I was over in the U.S. I was staggered at the amount of P&P 12" rarities which were turning up sealed and virtually indistinguishable from the originals. Until I found out it was Peter that was wholesaling 'em, generally in person and to order.

I know all this too well since my partner at the time and I bought the rights to the P&P catalogue from Peter, only to find out that he'd sold the catalogue to Unidisc some 10 years earlier!

Also, there's just too many weird boots emerging, mainly from the U.S. - the New Yorkers 12" is another one which was turning up at all the usual shops, identical to the original and priced at anywhere from $50-$200. Some supposedly reputable sellers who were trying to sell them as originals too!

Also, another thing I noticed was some real oddball 7" 45's that, to me, were obviously brand new but still being sold behind the counter as bona-fides.

Also what about all these recent boots of quite a few major label rarities - the Amnesia connection or something? Anyone got any of the titles.....?

Ian D

[Cunnie]

Royal Esquires springs to mind.

Was only a couple of copies for years & then all of a sudden everybody's got a minter.

[Ian Dewhirst]

With all due respect this is tosh. Mine's Mint and Im sure there's a couple more round here within 10 minutes walk, albeit maybe not Mint.

Unless you are certain those at Sheridan's were boots I think it's highly likely that 2 can turn up on the same night. Some of these rare 45s are not that rare. It's just the demand and number of people who collect so that most disappear into collections.

ROD

I disagree Rod.

As long as I've known, the Jimmy Mack's been an incredibly difficult record to find. To have 2 mint copies turn up @ Sheridans doesn't make sense. Unless someone can tell me different, or a load turned up, I'd be very dubious about the odds of several of 'em turning up on the same night....

Presumably it's still massively difficult?

Ian D

[Dave Thorley]

True. Peter's the king at bootlegging his own records LOL

Last time I was over in the U.S. I was staggered at the amount of P&P 12" rarities which were turning up sealed and virtually indistinguishable from the originals. Until I found out it was Peter that was wholesaling 'em, generally in person and to order.

I know all this too well since my partner at the time and I bought the rights to the P&P catalogue from Peter, only to find out that he'd sold the catalogue to Unidisc some 10 years earlier!

Also, there's just too many weird boots emerging, mainly from the U.S. - the New Yorkers 12" is another one which was turning up at all the usual shops, identical to the original and priced at anywhere from $50-$200. Some supposedly reputable sellers who were trying to sell them as originals too!

Also, another thing I noticed was some real oddball 7" 45's that, to me, were obviously brand new but still being sold behind the counter as bona-fides.

Also what about all these recent boots of quite a few major label rarities - the Amnesia connection or something? Anyone got any of the titles.....?

Ian D

The other stuff that is getting done in boat loads are all those rare 80's boogie lp's, even on major labels and many of them hard but not impossible to spot from the originals.

[Prophonics 2029]

I have a chemical that changes the colour of old vinyl but not new plastic, only a few shades from black to a lighter black.

The Royal Esquires has anybody ever tried to track the matrixes down from the originals

Mised 1335A HSI 6900/-A 11

Edited April 13, 2008 by Prophonics 2029

[Ian Dewhirst]

I have a chemical that changes the colour of old vinyl but not new plastic, only a few shades from black to a lighter black.

Will you give me ze formula for za secret chemical........?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

The other stuff that is getting done in boat loads are all those rare 80's boogie lp's, even on major labels and many of them hard but not impossible to spot from the originals.

Yeah, you're not wrong there Dave! Some of 'em are so obscure I questioned why anyone would want to boot 'em until I saw 'em everywhere from Baltimore to Buffalo LOL.....

Ian D

[Dave Thorley]

Yeah, you're not wrong there Dave! Some of 'em are so obscure I questioned why anyone would want to boot 'em until I saw 'em everywhere from Baltimore to Buffalo LOL.....

Ian D

Also many of the collectors shops in main land europe are stuffed full of them at the moment, along with all the P&P 12". I believe alot of the LP's are coming out of Scorpio, N.J.

Someone told me they now have their own pressing equipment

Edited April 13, 2008 by Dave Thorley

[Prophonics 2029]

There are a lot of rare records out the there and the ones that are being counterfeited are funny ones when there are rarer records that people could make more money from around?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Also many of the collectors shops in main land europe are stuffed full of them at the moment, along with all the P&P 12". I believe alot of the LP's are coming out of Scorpio, N.J.

Someone told me they now have their own pressing equipment

It wouldn't surprise me. I was there about 15 months back and one of the guys there (I think he's called Ray) actually collects Northern. They've been at it for years I think........

Incidentally, yet another place where there are simply too many records! Mountains of the stuff, although mostly 12" and Albums plus they make you give the records to 'em to value AFTER you've spent 3 days pulling everything out!!

Ian D

[Modernsoulsucks]

Well I disagree with you,Ian. Yes Jimmy Mack is and was hard to find but it musta been turning up since mid 70's. Probably quite a few now so 2 in one night is no big deal. I've been to plenty of places where there were more "rare" 45s than I could afford and plenty of duplicates.

As for Scorpio I got in there back in 89 when raregroove/2-step thing was big. I got hundreds and hundreds of original soul albums at $2-3. Long before the re-press days. I wasn't the only one either and by the time I'd stopped going there wasn't much left in the way of 70's albums.

ROD

[Ian Dewhirst]

Well I disagree with you,Ian. Yes Jimmy Mack is and was hard to find but it musta been turning up since mid 70's. Probably quite a few now so 2 in one night is no big deal. I've been to plenty of places where there were more "rare" 45s than I could afford and plenty of duplicates.

As for Scorpio I got in there back in 89 when raregroove/2-step thing was big. I got hundreds and hundreds of original soul albums at $2-3. Long before the re-press days. I wasn't the only one either and by the time I'd stopped going there wasn't much left in the way of 70's albums.

ROD

Haha LOL. I've just realised who modernsoulsucks is now. How are ya Rod?

I'll take yer word on the Jimmy Mack then I guess. Difficult to understand how a record which was almost impossible to find in the 70's should be relatively common these days. Out of curiosity what does it go for these days? Coupla hundred? I'm almost tempted to zip down to Ravensthorpe and snag one myself whilst they're out there LOL......

Ian D

Ian D

[Sebastian]

As long as I've known, the Jimmy Mack's been an incredibly difficult record to find. To have 2 mint copies turn up @ Sheridans doesn't make sense. Unless someone can tell me different, or a load turned up, I'd be very dubious about the odds of several of 'em turning up on the same night....

Presumably it's still massively difficult?

Ian D

It's still expensive but not especially difficult to find. A quick look at Popsike shows 5 copies sold on eBay during the past year or so and 3 of them were described as being high grade copies. Those 5 are certainly not the only copies that were sold on eBay (or elsewhere) during that year. I think it's safe to assume that at least one copy every two months is turning up these days.

Some recent prices:

2007-10-30 - $761 - VG

2007-10-14 - $1591 - M-

2007-09-12 - $610 - VG (no clicks, no noise, plays great)

2007-08-15 - £610 - (Manship auction)

2007-03-01 - $676 - VG+

2006-09-17 - $860 - M-

Edited April 14, 2008 by Sebastian

[Guest Leigh J]

With the technology available you can copy anything including Matrix stamps.

the tool required to do this cost no more than £20-£30 from a tool maker who makes chasing stamps.

I didnt know that

But aint things more likely to turn up in numbers ?, except the 'rarer' stuff that sits in collections for years until for some reason the owner needs to sell, its not out of the question that two records turn up on the same night , If something dodgy is going on wouldnt it have been more likely that theyd have been at different venues ?

A lot of stuff that UK dealers turn up is sold before its listed due to wants lists .

[Steve G]

For about the 50th time:

The Royal Esquires turned up because someone found the label owner who had all the copies in his garage. It has not been bootleged. The owner has subsequently died.

Things like that happen in this biz, people find records.

Having said all that, I understand it can be done, but I am still waiting to hear of an example where people think this has happened?

[Guest gordon russell]

I disagree Rod.

As long as I've known, the Jimmy Mack's been an incredibly difficult record to find. To have 2 mint copies turn up @ Sheridans doesn't make sense. Unless someone can tell me different, or a load turned up, I'd be very dubious about the odds of several of 'em turning up on the same night....

Presumably it's still massively difficult?

Ian D

whilst jimmy mack is reasonably rare,it's not up there with the super rare things..bought one in the 80's off,of CLIFF STEELE who had a pile of them.John Anderson used to find them everytime he went to the states.THIS IS NOT A PARTICULARLY RARE record....Conclusion quite poss a couple could turn up now and them

[Ezzie Brown]

you can buy record cutting machines to use at home for around £8500 retail in uk ,as people in the disco world eg pete french will know, so it gotta be fairly simple to fool those desparate to find their holy grail record. temperarily anyway.its no different than stealing records, you are profiting by default, it may be worse as most record thefts are spur of the moment, not planned. i aint no angel but when you cant trust people on the scene it spoils your nites out if your llookin to see if cerain scallies are turnin folk over.....but they aint goin away are they ...................ezzie

[Ian Dewhirst]

It's still expensive but not especially difficult to find. A quick look at Popsike shows 5 copies sold on eBay during the past year or so and 3 of them were described as being high grade copies. Those 5 are certainly not the only copies that were sold on eBay (or elsewhere) during that year. I think it's safe to assume that at least one copy every two months is turning up these days.

Some recent prices:

2007-10-30 - $761 - VG

2007-10-14 - $1591 - M-

2007-09-12 - $610 - VG (no clicks, no noise, plays great)

2007-08-15 - £610 - (Manship auction)

2007-03-01 - $676 - VG+

2006-09-17 - $860 - M-

Wow. I stand corrected Gentlemen. Obviously a lot more around then I ever realised!

All of which has made me wonder if multiples of any other ultra-raries have turned up since back in the day. Any Inspirations, Twans, Don Varners or Robbie Lawsons turned up in more quantity for instance?

Actually in my astonishment at the two Jimmy Macks in one night in Ravensthorpe turning up, I remembered a guy called Jim who WAS 10 minutes away (in Mirfield) who had an amazing collection of rare originals in '76. Myself and others sold him our rare originals for years when they got bootlegged and he'd built up a very tasty collection, but he dropped off the scene for some reason. I always wondered whether he's still around and whether they're still in his loft........?

Ian D

[Harry Crosby]

Wow. I stand corrected Gentlemen. Obviously a lot more around then I ever realised!

All of which has made me wonder if multiples of any other ultra-raries have turned up since back in the day. Any Inspirations, Twans, Don Varners or Robbie Lawsons turned up in more quantity for instance?

Actually in my astonishment at the two Jimmy Macks in one night in Ravensthorpe turning up, I remembered a guy called Jim who WAS 10 minutes away (in Mirfield) who had an amazing collection of rare originals in '76. Myself and others sold him our rare originals for years when they got bootlegged and he'd built up a very tasty collection, but he dropped off the scene for some reason. I always wondered whether he's still around and whether they're still in his loft........?

Ian D

Don`t know about the other two ian but ive certainly seen four copies of the twans on lists alone over the past couple of years

[Julianb]

Well I disagree with you,Ian. Yes Jimmy Mack is and was hard to find but it musta been turning up since mid 70's. Probably quite a few now so 2 in one night is no big deal. I've been to plenty of places where there were more "rare" 45s than I could afford and plenty of duplicates.

As for Scorpio I got in there back in 89 when raregroove/2-step thing was big. I got hundreds and hundreds of original soul albums at $2-3. Long before the re-press days. I wasn't the only one either and by the time I'd stopped going there wasn't much left in the way of 70's albums.

ROD

So. am I now to assume that my mint copy is a bootleg

Julian

[Ian Dewhirst]

So. am I now to assume that my mint copy is a bootleg

Julian

Well you are 10 minutes from Ravensthorpe aren'tcha Julian?

Actually was this ever booted on the original label?

Ian D

[Dean]

talking with dave rimmer last night i mentioned this thought that ive had for a while now , so lets see what you think!!!!

If the counterfieters can copy top of the range items like rolex watches and louis vutton hand bags almost to the point that even they have trouble telling them apart, what about records?

we all know pressings and look a likes dont cost very much at all to produce say 50p each for this excercise .

so if you offered them $1000. each for 10 copies of the parliaments on cabell as long as they were indistinguishable from the original how would we know? someone must be at it, the amount of money to be made tells you that.

ponder that!!!!!

Just going right back to start of this thread to make an observation that someone may well shoot down in flames . . . . . . . . But, we (should I say I) don't tend to see UK rarity bootlegs. Is it that most are insufficiently rare (!!?? can feel the collectors steaming now), harder to boot, more focussed legal protection? Could the future for collectors be more in Uk rarity market. I suppose there's no stopping the criminal abuse of rarity and price. I still think the odd thing about our 'scene' is the destruction by those who claim to be part of it by producing fakes for the hungry market.

Think I'll just keep buying cheap records! Dean

[Ian Dewhirst]

Just going right back to start of this thread to make an observation that someone may well shoot down in flames . . . . . . . . But, we (should I say I) don't tend to see UK rarity bootlegs. Is it that most are insufficiently rare (!!?? can feel the collectors steaming now), harder to boot, more focussed legal protection? Could the future for collectors be more in Uk rarity market. I suppose there's no stopping the criminal abuse of rarity and price. I still think the odd thing about our 'scene' is the destruction by those who claim to be part of it by producing fakes for the hungry market.

Think I'll just keep buying cheap records! Dean

I think it'd be twice as hard to boot UK rarities. There were both less promos and issues made for the UK than the US in most cases and I think it would be easier to check the actual pressings as the rarities would only usually come from a single UK pressing plant in those days, rather then several different plants like in the US.

Also, can you imagine the suspicion if a few copies of Alexander Patton or Darrell Banks demos turned up on the same night? Whereas with the US gear, anything is potentially possible.

Ian D

[Julianb]

Well you are 10 minutes from Ravensthorpe aren'tcha Julian?

Actually was this ever booted on the original label?

Ian D

Hi Ian

been over t'border since '78 in rainswept Manchester

[Dean]

I think it'd be twice as hard to boot UK rarities. There were both less promos and issues made for the UK than the US in most cases and I think it would be easier to check the actual pressings as the rarities would only usually come from a single UK pressing plant in those days, rather then several different plants like in the US.

Also, can you imagine the suspicion if a few copies of Alexander Patton or Darrell Banks demos turned up on the same night? Whereas with the US gear, anything is potentially possible.

Ian D

Good points. Also the size of the states which contributes to different pressing plants would make it more believable for sudden finds of hidden records. I'm sure the states is fairly dried out by now compared to 1970s but the size of the place lends itself to believing in still hidden backwaters. I think it's fair to assume that all there is of Alexander Patton etc are out there, if not all then the very very few odd hidden ones, but not a box of 50!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Ian

been over t'border since '78 in rainswept Manchester

Oh God, that means you and Brian '45' Phillips are both in the same neck of the woods! Thank god I'm not collecting so much these days LOL.......

Ian D

[Guest CliftonHall1]

Wow. I stand corrected Gentlemen. Obviously a lot more around then I ever realised!

All of which has made me wonder if multiples of any other ultra-raries have turned up since back in the day. Any Inspirations, Twans, Don Varners or Robbie Lawsons turned up in more quantity for instance?

Actually in my astonishment at the two Jimmy Macks in one night in Ravensthorpe turning up, I remembered a guy called Jim who WAS 10 minutes away (in Mirfield) who had an amazing collection of rare originals in '76. Myself and others sold him our rare originals for years when they got bootlegged and he'd built up a very tasty collection, but he dropped off the scene for some reason. I always wondered whether he's still around and whether they're still in his loft........?

Ian D

re Jimmy Mack,

ask Joey Wellez promotion guy at Palmer how many were sent out to Radio Stations, DJs, Record reviewers and the push and plug guys.

Reckons 1500 of the 2000 pressed by Archer and mailed by the outsourced promotion company.

This record was made with the intent of success but bombed under volume release of British records and apathy Why a few bobbing about now?

Answer has got to be TECHNOLOGY.

Back in 1975 the only way to contact a contact was by either airmail or expensive phonecall.

And that was ONE contact and longwinded.

Now with technology and networking you can rake over 100's people efficiently and quickly.

Also all those Push & Plug guys are now say in their late 60's and 70's now and passing away.

That means all their garages that have a 90% full count box of this or that was lobbed in the corner are now coming to the fore and sale.

Think of it like Edwardian furniture. 20 years ago lots available as people of that time passed on, now jack.

Likewise watch out for some finds emerging. The time is right.

[Julianb]

Oh God, that means you and Brian '45' Phillips are both in the same neck of the woods! Thank god I'm not collecting so much these days LOL.......

Ian D

I see Mr Phillips out and about occassionally ( usually when we are both under the influence of drink!) so generally a load of old b------s is spoken when we meet.

Julian

[Mark Bicknell]

Just going right back to start of this thread to make an observation that someone may well shoot down in flames . . . . . . . . But, we (should I say I) don't tend to see UK rarity bootlegs. Is it that most are insufficiently rare (!!?? can feel the collectors steaming now), harder to boot, more focussed legal protection? Could the future for collectors be more in Uk rarity market. I suppose there's no stopping the criminal abuse of rarity and price. I still think the odd thing about our 'scene' is the destruction by those who claim to be part of it by producing fakes for the hungry market.

Think I'll just keep buying cheap records! Dean

With you on that Dean all the way, there is so many good quality cheaper records out there for us to source, discover and enjoy, go against the flow I say....lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Ian Dewhirst]

re Jimmy Mack,

ask Joey Wellez promotion guy at Palmer how many were sent out to Radio Stations, DJs, Record reviewers and the push and plug guys.

Reckons 1500 of the 2000 pressed by Archer and mailed by the outsourced promotion company.

This record was made with the intent of success but bombed under volume release of British records and apathy Why a few bobbing about now?

Answer has got to be TECHNOLOGY.

Back in 1975 the only way to contact a contact was by either airmail or expensive phonecall.

And that was ONE contact and longwinded.

Now with technology and networking you can rake over 100's people efficiently and quickly.

Also all those Push & Plug guys are now say in their late 60's and 70's now and passing away.

That means all their garages that have a 90% full count box of this or that was lobbed in the corner are now coming to the fore and sale.

Think of it like Edwardian furniture. 20 years ago lots available as people of that time passed on, now jack.

Likewise watch out for some finds emerging. The time is right.

Mmmm. Food for thought there Alan. Lemme get on a plane and start visiting those Music Bizzy retirement type complexes in Santa Anna and California!

Ian D

[Prophonics 2029]

The way records are made from the master to the stamper it would be easy to make a new stamper from a record and then press copies up, there is a copper plating process where they can and have copied the Wimbledon trophy plate.

[Wrongcrowd]

With all due respect this is tosh. Mine's Mint and Im sure there's a couple more round here within 10 minutes walk, albeit maybe not Mint.

Unless you are certain those at Sheridan's were boots I think it's highly likely that 2 can turn up on the same night. Some of these rare 45s are not that rare. It's just the demand and number of people who collect so that most disappear into collections.

ROD

Absolutely agree with that Rod, I found 20 stone mint copies about 15 years back, and I'm sure they're all still close to mint neatly filed away in collections, as mine is.