Rotations is This Correct

[Robbk]

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

1958 

 

Yes, that's the Inspirations record I said I bought in 1958.  Maybe Jamie-Guyden Records re-issued it on Guyden in 1962 or 1963.  But, I also have a couple New Jersey or Philadelphia small indie labels with cuts by The Inspirations from the early '60s, plus one on a tiny New York label.  I always thought they were the same Philly group or Philadelphia suburbs of South NJ.  I'm not with my 45s now so can't check.  Anyway, that doesn't preclude some members of The Inspirations starting up a new group called The Rotations.  I just mentioned that I had never seen or heard evidence of that.  There are big holes in my knowledge of US East Coast Soul productions.  I never talked with any East Coast production people, artists, musicians or even big-time East Coast Soul  & R&B record collectors like I did with Chicago and Detroit and L.A. people.

I always thought The Rotations who recorded for some Cleveland labels Cleveland (Law-Ton, etc. ) were the same group from New Jersey that recorded for Frantic, and New York's Mala.  As Cleveland didn't have  as large a recording industry as Philadelphia and New York, and credits and labels showed they also recorded in Philadelphia (Law-Ton and Frantic) I assumed they were the same group.  

Bill Justis and Miles Grayson certainly were West Coasters.  I wonder if The Mala group really was a West Coast group containing some of The Attractions' members?  I never really paid much attention to The Rotations as I never cared that much about any of their recordings.  But IF they were a west coast group that signed to New York's Amy-Mala-Bell Records, why wouldn't some of their people know about the Philadelphia/Cleveland group and suggest re-naming the group?  It seems to me the Cleveland labels are the newest.  And, I'm guessing Mala is right before Frantic.  But I don't remember.  Can someone here tell me the chronological releases of the Rotations' groups' records?

 

Edited April 20 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

13 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Yes, that's the Inspirations record I said I bought in 1958... Anyway, that doesn't preclude some members of The Inspirations starting up a new group called The Rotations.  I just mentioned that I had never seen or heard evidence of that...

I always thought The Rotations who recorded for some Cleveland labels Cleveland (Law-Ton, etc. ) were the same group from New Jersey. that recoded for New York's Mala.  As Cleveland didn't have  as large a recording industry as Philadelphia and New York, and credits and labels showed they also recorded in Philadelphia (Law-Ton and Frantic) I assumed they were the same group.  

As far as I can recall, I never had a reason to think they might have been the same group or group connected to L.A.'s Attractions.  

Ineed. 

The Mala Rotations by ear for the 'trying to make you my own' side is clearly a L.A. product.

It's 'A' side 'misty roses' on the other hand is far too weird to sound like anything so specific.

If both sides are related at all even. Could be a 'split' 45 covered with some fantasy credits...

Leaving only the composer's and arranger's credits for lead with a Bill Justis production badge.

By ear the Law-Ton / De Brossard is altogether unmistakably another group than the Frantic's.

And although our ears are not hearing the same things they will be fooling until proven wrong.

While at it what's your take on my theory of the Vows 'buttered popcorn' being the Contours ?

[Robbk]

51 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Ineed. 

The Mala Rotations by ear for the 'trying to make you my own' side is clearly a L.A. product.

It's 'A' side 'misty roses' on the other hand is far too weird to sound like anything so specific.

If both sides are related at all even. Could be a 'split' 45 covered with some fantasy credits...

Leaving only the composer's and arranger's credits for lead with a Bill Justis production badge.

By ear the Law-Ton / De Brossard is altogether unmistakably another group than the Frantic's.

And although our ears are not hearing the same things they will be fooling until proven wrong.

While at it what's your take on my theory of the Vows 'buttered popcorn' being the Contours ?

I don't think our ears are hearing different things.  I never cared much about The Rotations' songs.  I never even recorded one of them.  I bought a few at 5 or 10 ¢, and never played them again.  I bought one Rotations on Law-Ton because I got it for almost nothing.  I don't have any others of their '70s records.  So, I never compared them to the Frantic record and Mala songs.  I have few '70s records, and recorded less.  I don't like many songs from The '70s (the few I like are mostly Motown from 1970-early '72, with an older sound).  So, I never played Rotations' songs from different labels back-to-back comparing them.  I just always assumed that they were all the same East Coast group.  My buying and collecting records was already taking too much time away from my personal life and other pursuits.  I couldn't get anywhere as deep into finding out about non-Detroit and Chicago record labels, or I would have had to try to create a career in researching Soul music (which I clearly didn't want to do - or I'd have tried it).  I lost quite a bit of money owning a record company as it was, and didn't get much satisfaction from it because nobody wanted to make or buy the old-fashioned music I liked; and I found out that I couldn't write music, and also wasn't willing to put in the practise time to learn to play the piano or guitar well enough to write better.

Anyway, there are Anoraks on this website that know a lot more about the late '60s and '70s East Coast Soul music, and looking up information online and websites and other sources online, and have a lot more friends into NS to ask, who can answer this question better.  I use mainly just my own collection, plus a few websites I know, plus some old paper discographies I put together over the years.

I DID find the later Jamie-Guyden Inspirations' release.  It was Jamie 1212 (rather than Guyden).  It has, I think, a re-recording or alternate take of "Dry Your Eyes".  I think it's an updated version with Strings added, if I recall.  And that's why I bought it.  I think "Goodbye" on the flip is a more modern '60s recording.  

Edited April 20 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

I don't think our ears are hearing different things.  I never cared much about The Rotations' songs.  I never even recorded one of them.  I bought a few at 5 or 10 ¢, and never played them again.  I bought one Rotations on Law-Ton because I got it for almost nothing.  I don't have any others of their '70s records.  So, I never compared them to the Frantic record and Mala songs.  I have few '70s records, and recorded less.  I don't like many songs from The '70s (the few I like are mostly Motown from 1970-early '72, with an older sound).  So, I never played Rotations' songs from different labels back-to-back comparing them.  I just always assumed that they were all the same East Coast group.  My buying and collecting records was already taking too much time away from my personal life and other pursuits.  I couldn't get anywhere as deep into finding out about non-Detroit and Chicago record labels, or I would have had to try to create a career in researching Soul music (which I clearly didn't want to do - or I'd have tried it).  I lost quite a bit of money owning a record company as it was, and didn't get much satisfaction from it because nobody wanted to make or buy the old-fashioned music I liked; and I found out that I couldn't write music, and also wasn't willing to put in the practise time to learn to play the piano or guitar well enough to write better.

Anyway, there are Anoraks on this website that know a lot more about the late '60s and '70s East Coast Soul music, and looking up information online and websites and other sources online, and have a lot more friends into NS to ask, who can answer this question better.  I use mainly just my own collection, plus a few websites I know, plus some old paper discographies I put together over the years.

I DID find the later Jamie-Guyden Inspirations' release.  It was Jamie 1212 (rather than Guyden).  It has, I think, a re-recording or alternate take of "Dry Your Eyes".  I think it's an updated version with Strings added, if I recall.  And that's why I bought it.  I think "Goodbye" on the flip is a more modern '60s recording.  

Sorry if ever but I meant 'OUR' ears in the generic sense and not yours and mines in particular or in this instance. But yes, OK.

[George G]

23 hours ago, Chalky said:

I don’t hear any of the Chestnut brothers in either Mala side.  Neither sound like Morris that is for sure and i don’t hear the vows lead in there either. 

Doesn’t give us any group member names tho’

Two members of the Cleveland group were killed on Jan 7 1970, Joseph Moore and Thomas Perkins 'the same day their record ('I Can't Find Her' on DeBrossard) arrived in local stores', according to the newspaper story. The group had 4-5 members and were together from 1969-72 or so. I have more info but not handy at the moment. The killed members were replaced. Here's a pic of the original group.

Edited April 20 by George G

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Ineed. 

The Mala Rotations by ear for the 'trying to make you my own' side is clearly a L.A. product.

It's 'A' side 'misty roses' on the other hand is far too weird to sound like anything so specific.

If both sides are related at all even. Could be a 'split' 45 covered with some fantasy credits...

Leaving only the composer's and arranger's credits for lead with a Bill Justis production badge.

By ear the Law-Ton / De Brossard is altogether unmistakably another group than the Frantic's.

And although our ears are not hearing the same things they will be fooling until proven wrong.

While at it what's your take on my theory of the Vows 'buttered popcorn' being the Contours ?

I’d agree the Mala release is West Coast but still doesn’t sound like Morris Chestnut to my ears.  The lead does sound familiar though. 

[Tlscapital]

21 hours ago, Graham Anthony said:

The Rotations "trying to make you my Own" sounds like Morris Chestnut to me. I thought his cousin Ralph Chestnut was a bass singer as on The Cheerios "Ding dong honeymoon" and that Morris was a tenor. Different group names and recordings were rife at the time with producers using old tracks and issuing them with new names, so not much of a leap to put out an Attractions disc with a different name on the same group of labels. Producers often put out tracks without the artist(s) knowledge so Morris Chestnut may not have known about The Rotations disc.

Singers "natural" classification in tone between bass, baritone or alto is that. But it does not mean evidently that one such 'classified' singer can't sing otherwise in another tone. Even less in the lower or higher tone around their 'natural' set tone.

On that Cheerios 'ding dong honeymoon' example we can clearly hear the limit in every sense of Ralph's singing ability to switch from low bass tones to a higher singing bass tone that seems to be his "natural" tone. I'd say he's more of a high bass singer.

So if that example shows what Ralph's singing surely the Rotations 'trying to make you my own' is not Ralph indeed. As the lead here is a natural high toned baritone with tight phrasing showing he's at his natural singing here. And really nothing like Morris for me.

Such tight and dry phrasing especially is nothing reminiscent of Morris Chestnut singing. Unless Morris wanted to 'impersonate' another singing "character" and prove like some others did his versatility ability in singing if he could... Yet somehow I doubt that from Morris.

The quest for this Rotations lead singer keeps on. Likely putting at rest the Attractions Chestnut Connection with this Rotations Mala single. That I first spontaneously went for. The 'who's who' behind that most improbable double sider of one and a same group remains to be disclosed.

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 18/04/2024 at 10:23, Chalky said:

Discogs has the Rotations on Mala and Frantic being the same act and from New Jersey.  I'm not so sure that the Mala group are or were the Attractions who were West Coast?

Mala group from Discogs: Albert DeMagnes, Leona Harden, Arlene Dixon, & Miriam Carter were the Rotations from New Jersey, USA.

Attractions: Morris Chestnut, (David or Robert) Jones (once of the Soundmasters), Bledsoe & Smith.

Anyone confirm the line ups or add etc

Found this article and it mentions in the 3rd column the Frantic line up mentioned previously (note the typo of D-9) 

[The Yank]

Just a minor correction. The Inspirations 45 on Jamie came out in 1956 not 1958. Here's a review from the November 24, 1956 issue of Cashbox- 

 

[Alan T]

The Chicago Rotations could be this group with a changed name ?

 

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The Ohio Rotations did the backing on this record

Joe Fisher - Last Letter Of Love - Hyperbolic Records

[Robbk]

I have The Deboniers' record.  I'd really like to hear that Candy (Candace) Love record's cuts.  I loved her singing and songwriting on Ric Williams labels.

[The Yank]

Here you go Robb -

 

 

[Tlscapital]

8 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Mine are in lock up at minute but will try and find it when I call there. 
 

Discogs has Kitty as an alias for Edith brown who recorded on 4 Brothers but that is wrong if the comments on 45cat are anything to go by.  
 

maybe the kitty talk should be a separate topic?

I realized that. Will ask the moderator to split it into a new thread.

[Source Team]

23 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

I realized that. Will ask the moderator to split it into a new thread.

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/449577-sam-and-kitty-who-was-kitty/

 

[Robbk]

On 21/04/2024 at 15:20, The Yank said:

Here you go Robb -

 

 

Thanks Yank.  That Funky Jazz version of Rodgers & Hammerstein's "My Favorite Things" is great!  I think I saw this at United Record Distributors when it was out, but didn't think it would be any good.  The flip  has terrible acoustics and overall sound quality.  Very unprofessional.  I assume that Orr Records was co-owned by Richard Orr and Tel-Fi (James Porter).  They released a weird mix of music styles, raucus Southern Soul, Chicago-style Soul, Blues, and Jazz. 

Sherman Nesbery wrote The Deboniers' song for Richard Pegue's Nicolet Music.  Micheal Nesbery, who went to my high school, I believe was his cousin.  Sherman was a songwriter who wrote for several small indie Chicago labels related to Renee and other Leo Austell and Bob Lee-related labels.  Later, he became one of DJ Richard Pegue's stable of songwriters for his Penny and Nickel Records.  He was also a singer, both in groups and as a solo act.  He recorded for a couple labels (including Toi) as a solo act as Verbel Domino, and with a stage last name starting with "N" (but I can't remember it).  And I can't remember the Southside groups he was in other than The Mod Swingers, (Little Sherman and The Mod Swingers) ("The Price of Love" on James Porter's (Tel-Fi owner's) Sagport Records).  Do you remember him, and his other stage name, or any of the earlier Southside groups that he was a member?  Sherman also wrote "We Don't Have To Be Over 21" for The Jackson Five.

[Robbk]

On 19/04/2024 at 19:39, Tlscapital said:

Ineed. 

The Mala Rotations by ear for the 'trying to make you my own' side is clearly a L.A. product.

It's 'A' side 'misty roses' on the other hand is far too weird to sound like anything so specific.

If both sides are related at all even. Could be a 'split' 45 covered with some fantasy credits...

Leaving only the composer's and arranger's credits for lead with a Bill Justis production badge.

By ear the Law-Ton / De Brossard is altogether unmistakably another group than the Frantic's.

And although our ears are not hearing the same things they will be fooling until proven wrong.

While at it what's your take on my theory of the Vows 'buttered popcorn' being the Contours ?

I forgot to comment on your theory of the Vows' "Buttered Popcorn" being the Contours.  I listened to their version several times.  The lead singer sounds suspiciously like Billy Gordon's gravelly-style voice (e.g. the voice he used on most of his mid to fast tempo cuts (basically ALL but his couple of ballads like "That Day When She Needed Me", when he used his smooth, probably normal voice).  Not only that, but I don't hear any of The Vows recognisable voices, and the group, as a whole, sounds very, very much like the 1961 Contours.  Furthermore, the sound of the instrumentation, acoustics, and recording all sound like an early '60s ('61 fits best) recording, rather than a 1965 recording.  I wouldn't be shocked to find out that this was a previously unissued, vaulted, Contours' 1961 cut, like so many of their others that were left in the can, which only were finally released on digital files.  Motown wasn't ever going to put any marketing push on ANY L.A. Motown artist, except Brenda Holloway at that time.  That release was probably just a favour to Hal Davis and Marc Gordon, to keep them happy.  So, it didn't matter what was on the flip.  Your theory could well be spot on.  I wouldn't bet a bunch of money on it either way.  But, I certainly can't say it has no teeth.

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

I forgot to comment on your theory of the Vows' "Buttered Popcorn" being the Contours.  I listened to their version several times.  The lead singer sounds suspiciously like Billy Gordon's gravelly-style voice (e.g. the voice he used on most of his mid to fast tempo cuts (basically ALL but his couple of ballads like "That Day When She Needed Me", when he used his smooth, probably normal voice).  Not only that, but I don't hear any of The Vows recognisable voices, and the group, as a whole, sounds very, very much like the 1961 Contours.  Furthermore, the sound of the instrumentation, acoustics, and recording all sound like an early '60s ('61 fits best) recording, rather than a 1965 recording.  I wouldn't be shocked to find out that this was a previously unissued, vaulted, Contours' 1961 cut, like so many of their others that were left in the can, which only were finally released on digital files.  Motown wasn't ever going to put any marketing push on ANY L.A. Motown artist, except Brenda Holloway at that time.  That release was probably just a favour to Hal Davis and Marc Gordon, to keep them happy.  So, it didn't matter what was on the flip.  Your theory could well be spot on.  I wouldn't bet a bunch of money on it either way.  But, I certainly can't say it has no teeth.

Exactly. The odd factor of the single sided white promo label (ARP pressing only) also tends to indicates further more that his VIP release was never  considered a "proper" commercial contender if ever anyway.

[The Yank]

10 hours ago, Robbk said:

 

Sherman Nesbery wrote The Deboniers' song for Richard Pegue's Nicolet Music.  Micheal Nesbery, who went to my high school, I believe was his cousin.  Sherman was a songwriter who wrote for several small indie Chicago labels related to Renee and other Leo Austell and Bob Lee-related labels.  Later, he became one of DJ Richard Pegue's stable of songwriters for his Penny and Nickel Records.  He was also a singer, both in groups and as a solo act.  He recorded for a couple labels (including Toi) as a solo act as Verbel Domino, and with a stage last name starting with "N" (but I can't remember it).  And I can't remember the Southside groups he was in other than The Mod Swingers, (Little Sherman and The Mod Swingers) ("The Price of Love" on James Porter's (Tel-Fi owner's) Sagport Records).  Do you remember him, and his other stage name, or any of the earlier Southside groups that he was a member?  Sherman also wrote "We Don't Have To Be Over 21" for The Jackson Five.

      I don't know of any other groups Sherman was in or is his stage name. He is said to be the younger brother of Robert Nesberry of the Orchids (Parrot).

      Here's another song he wrote- 

 

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, The Yank said:

      I don't know of any other groups Sherman was in or is his stage name. He is said to be the younger brother of Robert Nesberry of the Orchids (Parrot).

      Here's another song he wrote- 

 

Yes, Robert Nesberry of The Orchids.  The Orchids were one of my favourite early '50s groups.  What a beautiful voice their lead singer, Gilbert Warren, had!  I forgot about him.

That's about the 10th different way of spelling Nesbery I've seen (Nessbery, Nesberry, Nesbary, Nessbarry, Nasbery.  What's with people and that name?  I have many more songs written by Sherman, sung by Chicago artists.  I wonder why he didn't start his own publishing company?

[Tlscapital]

Two in One ; the Rotations 'trying to make you my own' rather singular singing stil resonates in my head as to what other tune it reminds me off... To link it to a specific singer if ever... Suddenly Charles Lamont and the Extremes 'I Got to Keep Movin'' on Challenge came up as contender worth checking...

If ever it could be a comparative contender. And well... Digging further into it on another 'recent' theory raised on 45cat.com about Charles Lamont being in the most dis-believable way IMHO one and the same as Johnny Olenn & the Extremes on Dee Gee and Entree.. it begged for further exploration.

Especially as Johnny Olenn is a well known Rock'n'Roll figure, His version of 'keep on movin'' is nothing like the Charles Lamont one although the same song but most of all the singing is not at all the same and Johnny Olenn's singing never a match. Plus he is not black nor impressing to sing like one !

So I questioned the OP theory directly on 45cat.com proposing that them both Johnny and Charles were one and the same singer. Even if both Johnny and Charles singles were backed by the Extremes which was an old formation of Charles Ingersoll and Bobby sanders from their school days.

FWIW the Johnny Olenn's cut was registered under the 'Symbol' Buck ram copyright company in November 1964 but without real trace of release or radio 'air play' charts to attest of it's date of release while the Charles Lamont is 4 Star Sales Co. & Lenoir one by March 1965 has it's Monarch matrix Δ 56753 !

Charles Ingersoll the composer (being the link) in my guess could be Charles Lamont (alias) real name. So Charles Ingersoll could have proposed this composition of his first to Buck Ram proprietor of Dee Gee and Entree records who then got Johnny Olenn & the Expressions to sing it and released first if ever.

Thereafter Charles Ingersoll could have cut another deal with old friend Bobby Sanders to sing and release it on Challenge backed with another of his composition 'Doin Mickey's  jerk'. Introducing Charles Ingersoll to Bobby Sanders future projects on his Soultown stable and the later Canterbury & Minit ventures.

There and then Charles Ingersoll would soon become a one time member of the Younghearts and so also maybe of the L.A. Tempos for example. And if that is him (maybe only once again) he could then be the one singing on their side 'Sad Sad Memories' released on Soultown or Canterbury... thoughts anyone ?

Edited April 26 by Tlscapital