Four Tracks...i Got One Of The 100? Off M Spivens

[Ernie Andrews]

Ill say this again just too upset eveyone-

Without provenance you dont know how many copies their are out there of any record.

The technology today can reproduce records almost perfectly and where they dont they make up interesting stories like this was pressed up in Hawaii or east coast or West coast - Take your pick!

If one more copy comes from this guy how do wereally know he has found another or just had one pressed up and stressed. The Antique dealers have been doing it for years so why not with records?

[Chalky]

Ill say this again just too upset eveyone-

Without provenance you dont know how many copies their are out there of any record.

The technology today can reproduce records almost perfectly and where they dont they make up interesting stories like this was pressed up in Hawaii or east coast or West coast - Take your pick!

If one more copy comes from this guy how do wereally know he has found another or just had one pressed up and stressed. The Antique dealers have been doing it for years so why not with records?

I don't think anyone believes the guy, he said before none left or last one.

If you have been around records for years you have a rough idea how many in circulation of most titles but agreed you never know when more will turn up, Four Tracks a good example. Wasn't too long ago it was a genuine rarity and came up for sale very rarely and when it did it was for 4 figures. Now it should be 50 quid, I can't believe they are still bidding so much for it

[Ernie Andrews]

But thats my point Chalky - Hes watched how many around - got some pressed up and dripped them out!

at $1-2 to get pressed up its easy

[Guest]

Now this may be a daft question but, Mandingo Productions, Four Tracks.

Well where are the other two tracks?

One release, two tracks, are the other two tracks 'in the can' / unreleased??? Get my drift?

Anyone know the full story behind Mandingo, I know there are suggestions that link it to Golden World, but where are the other two intended tracks????

Probably picked the name because of The Four Tops.

I read many years ago that The Four Tracks record was recorded in the same studio that the Correctone label used.

[Sebastian]

got some pressed up and dripped them out!

at $1-2 to get pressed up its easy

Do you seriously believe that it's possible today to make a perfect replica of a 40+ year old 45? There are so many things to "get right" that you're bound to mess up somewhere along the line. Even if you've got the old master plates you will not be able to pull it off, because something in the label printing or the consistence of the vinyl is bound to give it away as a repro.

[boba]

Do you seriously believe that it's possible today to make a perfect replica of a 40+ year old 45? There are so many things to "get right" that you're bound to mess up somewhere along the line. Even if you've got the old master plates you will not be able to pull it off, because something in the label printing or the consistence of the vinyl is bound to give it away as a repro.

It's probably harder now than it was 25 years ago, it's not like we've made new advances in vinyl technology

[George G]

Probably picked the name because of The Four Tops.

I read many years ago that The Four Tracks record was recorded in the same studio that the Correctone label used.

The address on the label is a few doors down from the Clarks/Glass City (Romona Collins, Casuals, Jimmy Holloway) record store/studio. It wasn't recorded there though.

I bought one of the copies of this for about the price the last bunch sold for. Mine is 100% original pressed at Archer in Detroit....1968, maybe 1969.

- George

Edited December 14, 2010 by George G

[Chalky]

Do you seriously believe that it's possible today to make a perfect replica of a 40+ year old 45? There are so many things to "get right" that you're bound to mess up somewhere along the line. Even if you've got the old master plates you will not be able to pull it off, because something in the label printing or the consistence of the vinyl is bound to give it away as a repro.

I doubt some of the products used in the 60's are available these days. Many inks etc used back then would now be banned or the some of the products used to make it.

[Ernie Andrews]

Yes I do think people can be conned by represses - AS I have just said Antique dealers have been doing it for years - So what is stopping anyone doing records.

You pick a record you get it pressed with good looking labels - scratched in matrix - Different grades of plastic were used for vinyl in the 70s so you state this was pressed in some plant in the middle of where-ever etc You even stick them in a box in a really damp area for a few weeks so some of the paper covers stick to the labels  etc etc etc and hey presto.

For those of you in the know about COAs even they are now subject to questions of Authenticity- I should know having earlier this year sold over a hundred Rare collectible Pop records with signatures on them.It wasnt the autographs that were in question it was the authenticity of the COA

Some Coa,s  have been reproduced in the last 5 -10 years where even the paper/Watermarks /seals and signatories have been reproduced to confound original people who did the COas in the 70s and 80s so I cannot accept that you cant replicate some records to the point of making a fake look real and pass it off as such if you really want to. Anything can be done if you want to deceive!

[Sebastian]

Yes I do think people can be conned by represses

Ofcourse some people can and are conned by re-presses, but people who know how to check these things does not get conned.

You pick a record you get it pressed with good looking labels - scratched in matrix - Different grades of plastic were used for vinyl in the 70s so you state this was pressed in some plant in the middle of where-ever etc You even stick them in a box in a really damp area for a few weeks so some of the paper covers stick to the labels etc etc etc and hey presto.

You will not be fooling anyone. Especially not if you're trying to counterfeit an existing release. I mean, just such a thing as the volume of the sound on the disc. How are you going to get the volume at the exact same dB as the original? With the exact same wave form? That is nigh on impossible. And I'd be surprised if there is even ONE pressing plant that will be willing to forge ARCHER / NASHVILLE MATRIX / GlobeNASHVILLE etc. stamps and put into the deadwax.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Sebastian

[Ernie Andrews]

Notice Sebastien I said scratched in matrix but even fine tools can be made - (Stamps)

Pressing plants in the Us are not like they used to be - When I met Peter Brown in New York 5 years ago he enlightened me as to how records are pressed today and that is why I can say It can be done. So If PB of PAP or P&P records of the 70s says it can be done it can IMO!

I suppose I should win Millions of pounds then I dont have to work and make it my mission to prove you wrong! Oh maybe someone has done it already!

P.S. Look at your statement - "do not get conned easily" - but they do otherwise you would say they dont get conned full stop!

You also state "Fooling a lot of people" - That suggests some have or will and at $1000 a time you dont have to fool too many as you can get the records pressed up in batches of 5 or 10 or how ever many you need to!

Edited December 14, 2010 by Ernie Andrews

[Chalky]

Notice Sebastien I said scratched in matrix but even fine tools can be made - (Stamps)

Pressing plants in the Us are not like they used to be - When I met Peter Brown in New York 5 years ago he enlightened me as to how records are pressed today and that is why I can say It can be done. So If PB of PAP or P&P records of the 70s says it can be done it can IMO!

I suppose I should win Millions of pounds then I dont have to work and make it my mission to prove you wrong! Oh maybe someone has done it already!

P.S. Look at your statement - "do not get conned easily" - but they do otherwise you would say they dont get conned full stop!

You also state "Fooling a lot of people" - That suggests some have or will and at $1000 a time you dont have to fool too many as you can get the records pressed up in batches of 5 or 10 or how ever many you need to!

I doubt very much you can replicate like for like a 60's disc today, the vinyl today is different as is the inks and no doubt the paper. Granted you can make a damn good counterfeit but you won't fool everyone and certainly not the top dealers/collectors, it wouldn't take long for suspicion to be aroused.

[Sebastian]

P.S. Look at your statement - "do not get conned easily" - but they do otherwise you would say they dont get conned full stop!

You also state "Fooling a lot of people" - That suggests some have or will and at $1000 a time you dont have to fool too many as you can get the records pressed up in batches of 5 or 10 or how ever many you need to!

My bad, I have gone back and edited my posting so that it reflects my true opinion.

Let's just agree to disagree.

[boba]

Notice Sebastien I said scratched in matrix but even fine tools can be made - (Stamps)

Pressing plants in the Us are not like they used to be - When I met Peter Brown in New York 5 years ago he enlightened me as to how records are pressed today and that is why I can say It can be done. So If PB of PAP or P&P records of the 70s says it can be done it can IMO!

I suppose I should win Millions of pounds then I dont have to work and make it my mission to prove you wrong! Oh maybe someone has done it already!

P.S. Look at your statement - "do not get conned easily" - but they do otherwise you would say they dont get conned full stop!

You also state "Fooling a lot of people" - That suggests some have or will and at $1000 a time you dont have to fool too many as you can get the records pressed up in batches of 5 or 10 or how ever many you need to!

you keep changing the scenario. first you are talking about the four tracks being counterfeited. Then you say it must be a record that doesn't have a deadwax stamp. The four tracks has a deadwax stamp so it's not that. Then you say it will be a different kind of vinyl and look than existing copies, but you will use the excuse that it came from some other pressing plant (even though people do have good knowledge about the different plants). Are you saying that a newly discovered pressing run of an expensive record that is somehow different than all existing presses won't be suspicious as long as the seller makes up an excuse?

[Ernie Andrews]

Boba - Its just a range of stories that can be used to fool anyone- Are you telling me you never made a mistake with the authenticity of a record. I was brought with records from about 3 years old coming from a music family and working for a record company Djing collecting, making demo tapes etc etc and yet even I have been fooled in the past even in the Last 10 years.
But yes even stamps can be made to punch burn indent into the matrix - Theres companies in the US who actually advertise to do special one offs. ( Chasing tools)
Maybe some will make mistakes when they do attempt counterfitting but the more practice they get the better they get at it. and given access to technology now in my view its easier because of the greater variations. They can attepmt on less numbers now than they could in the 70s as you had to purchase a set number of blanks or presses of the record. so just buying 2 or 5 or ten they will not be financially disadvantaged with each attempt until they get it right.
Unless you have absolute provenance you can never say never - Thats my opinion
Ask some famous antique dealers if they have ever been fooled and 99% of them will say yes. and even recently.
I think the problem with me saying this is like asking the question " Is their a God" Nobody can disprove it or the other side of the coin - nobody can prove it untill they see with their own eyes!

Edited December 15, 2010 by Ernie Andrews

[Mrtag]

Well Whats The Verdict Real Or Not??

[boba]

Boba - Its just a range of stories that can be used to fool anyone- Are you telling me you never made a mistake with the authenticity of a record. I was brought with records from about 3 years old coming from a music family and working for a record company Djing collecting, making demo tapes etc etc and yet even I have been fooled in the past even in the Last 10 years.
But yes even stamps can be made to punch burn indent into the matrix - Theres companies in the US who actually advertise to do special one offs. ( Chasing tools)
Maybe some will make mistakes when they do attempt counterfitting but the more practice they get the better they get at it. and given access to technology now in my view its easier because of the greater variations. They can attepmt on less numbers now than they could in the 70s as you had to purchase a set number of blanks or presses of the record. so just buying 2 or 5 or ten they will not be financially disadvantaged with each attempt until they get it right.
Unless you have absolute provenance you can never say never - Thats my opinion
Ask some famous antique dealers if they have ever been fooled and 99% of them will say yes. and even recently.
I think the problem with me saying this is like asking the question " Is their a God" Nobody can disprove it or the other side of the coin - nobody can prove it untill they see with their own eyes!

I have been ripped off with boots actually, from buying from overseas sellers before having a bootleg guide. Whether someone can rip me off versus getting over the entire record collecting community on a $$$$ record is a different matter though. Look at what recently happened with the robbie lawson counterfeit. People here are so suspicious that they say real records (such as the archer stamped four tracks) are fake.

[NEV]

Ill say this again just too upset eveyone-

Without provenance you dont know how many copies their are out there of any record.

The technology today can reproduce records almost perfectly and where they dont they make up interesting stories like this was pressed up in Hawaii or east coast or West coast - Take your pick!

If one more copy comes from this guy how do wereally know he has found another or just had one pressed up and stressed. The Antique dealers have been doing it for years so why not with records?

Steve ..you really should seek help with your paranoia .....i used to suffer terribly but im ok now

P.s i it just me, but everytime i walk past a picture of the MONA LISA ,i think someone is watching me through her eyes ???

[Chalky]

Boba - Its just a range of stories that can be used to fool anyone- Are you telling me you never made a mistake with the authenticity of a record. I was brought with records from about 3 years old coming from a music family and working for a record company Djing collecting, making demo tapes etc etc and yet even I have been fooled in the past even in the Last 10 years.
But yes even stamps can be made to punch burn indent into the matrix - Theres companies in the US who actually advertise to do special one offs. ( Chasing tools)
Maybe some will make mistakes when they do attempt counterfitting but the more practice they get the better they get at it. and given access to technology now in my view its easier because of the greater variations. They can attepmt on less numbers now than they could in the 70s as you had to purchase a set number of blanks or presses of the record. so just buying 2 or 5 or ten they will not be financially disadvantaged with each attempt until they get it right.
Unless you have absolute provenance you can never say never - Thats my opinion
Ask some famous antique dealers if they have ever been fooled and 99% of them will say yes. and even recently.
I think the problem with me saying this is like asking the question " Is their a God" Nobody can disprove it or the other side of the coin - nobody can prove it untill they see with their own eyes!

I can't think of a fake/counterfeit whatever you want to call it that hasn't been sussed pretty quickly. The reason people get fooled is probably because they haven't seen the disc in the flesh and the green eyed monster taking over with the collector having to get hold of the apparent bargain. Technology would probably be the bootleggers downfall.

And do you really think that we would be fooled by a rare disc suddenly turning up in quantity with a different matrix from a totally different pressing plant?

I can't see how you can compare antiques with vinyl/styrene.

Anyway we digress.

[Guest]

The only "good" boots/counterfeits seem to be older ones. I have yet to see any halfway decent looking vinyl from recent times.Funnily enough, you'd think the font would be the easist part. Yet there's always something that gives it away.

As said earlier, you always know when something is not quite right. Sometimes, you just don't want to believe it!

[Ernie Andrews]

I may be totally wrong with this but I heard the Funk market is rife with Bootlegs.

Nev Its not paranoia ! Cos I dont care as Im never gonna buy another record for collecting. However Chalky & Boa are right when saying The whole record fraternity wouldnt be fooled or they would suss it pretty quick - Yes the Anoraks would but others may be driven on by the Euphoria of having ! therefore I said it only needs a few to buy for it to make enough money  to be very viable for the bootlegger! 10 copies at $1000 a time is enough. They dont tend to turn up all at once they are dripped for obvious reasons both financially and to decieve the theory of rarity.

I know this might not happen but what if someone came on here and said categorically that he witnessed FRederick HYmes or The Royal Esquires  being pressed up 10 years ago knowing the damage cannot be reversed.

I wonder if the reaction would be "OH SHit"

If it did I think the rare soul collecting scene would have a deep recession! This is the reason for the bootlegger to keep Stum!

[Guest]

.

.

OK........ by the feel of them

these are not boots

this is someone who had found hundreds of originals

and he is trying to make the most of his find, but had the benefit of expert scene advise IMO.

And knew how to bleed them out !

loads of dealers have copies

and have had for ages !

Its a 100 pound 45 IMO

He found a lot - not a small hand full

but I hope I wrong for all the lads that have spent 400 - 500 on the 45

and as far as the paranoid bootlegging and copying of antiques thing goes.

the whole point in collecting originals is because you know they are original.

I have just spent 200 on a Jamaican studio one 45 that I personally have no doubt is original.

is all about research.

and if your research is shit then you have only your self to blame !

If yo get stung ........at this point your interest in your chosen subject should evolve !

Ask mark bicknell what he thinks of the scans of m spivens four tracks on e bay ?

mark had a copy in the 80s before all this shit !

ive not heard any one suspecting spivens producing a bootleg disc ?

Edited December 18, 2010 by mossy

[Tony Smith]

What is the current going rate?

[Sebastian]

What is the current going rate?

The latest 6 copies sold just the other day for $438-$540. So roughly £300-£350.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Sebastian

[Sutty]

Remember the David Rhodes fiasco played out so publicly a few years back, where it was claimed it was an o.g. 70s press (when it was a 70s recording on a recent press). The b-side gave that one away, it had a 90s sounding drum machine on it, and the labels were in a modern computerized typeface if I remember lol, so it's not always about the vinyl

cheers Sutty

[Chalky]

The latest 6 copies sold just the other day for $438-$540. So roughly £300-£350.

There's one born every minute, well 6 in this case. 6 copies listed at once and they still spend over £300 on 'em, daft. Would they spend that sort of money on Danny Moore? No so why so much on this record?

[Phil Shields]

Never really liked it but I hope those that have spent £300+ on it recently are pleased with their purchase.

I reckon its worth £100 tops now for what its worth be interested to see if he has found multiples of anything else.

Theres a few I'd be happy to pay £300 for

[Guest]

There's one born every minute, well 6 in this case. 6 copies listed at once and they still spend over £300 on 'em, daft. Would they spend that sort of money on Danny Moore? No so why so much on this record?

Time will tell!

If it is the last 6 copies, once the dust has settled they will go up in price!

Danny Moore should go for more, but most people who want one have got it.

I remember when there where lots of Vince Apollos on Pentagon, but they are going back up in price these days.