Bbc North West News Tonigh

[BlueWail]

We had a 50/50 split at Soul Revolution on Friday, which is normal for us. Maybe 40/60. We normally get a few teenagers along, last year there was a 17 year old who asked if it was ok if he could get in See the gallery at www.soulrevolution.co.uk . It's just plain wrong what you're saying, man. There was a party of 12 girls along celebrating a 25th I believe on Friday, they had smiles on their faces all night checking out the dancers, then after a few beers tried their feet on the floor themselves. They stayed right till the end, told me how much they enjoyed it and didn't understand why there were not more nights like it in London, said that they had never been to a northern soul night before and didn't realise they went on in London at all and were excited to hear about the 100 Club, which they had never heard of and gave me their details and asked for me to let them know about what was going on in the future. This is not unusual. Sorry Darren, it's plain wrong what you are saying as this would not be happenning without the support of scene veterans showcasing the etiquette, the friendliness, the passion and the dancing to these folk. Age is irrelevent, it's about how you handle yourself. Cool fackers are cool fackers whether they are 20 or 60 years old. Keb's done more for pushing this music to a new audience than anyone else, and he's had at least 3 50th birthday's in the past 3 years.

What is true is that younger folk are not going to go to the crappy venues in the middle of nowhere with crappy promotions and crappy records played on crappy sound systems populated by a crowd of people looking to relive memories, why would they want to?

Mepaul50 said, "if you start changing things its not the same f.. scene then is it ? whats got to change ?? northern soul music is exactly what it is ` if you got to change the music it aint northern soul any more is it ??? ? and if the kids dont like it` then there aint much you can say or do you ether like it or you dont ,"

I'm really not sure this is the case at all. From what I understand, but I'm not a student of northern soul history because it's irrelevent to me, 'northern soul' has always been changing and evolving. That's what's given it it's longevity, surely? And if things need to change musically, as they are now because the crowds are changing, and yes they are in London, then the good DJs will realise this and use the chance to push new and exciting sounds, 'funky' sounds (not disco jazz funk that I believe a lot of northern soulies think of as funk, but propa late 60s funk and underground disco like Elipsis) seem to be the way to go around London at the moment. It's going to happen as newer, more open minded, funky young crowds start turning up at the good venues that are attractive to them. This doesn't mean classic sounds are ignored, in fact they are vital, but they need to be used along side other exciting tunes which replace the irrelevent sounds that are only any use at events that are promoted for folk who want to remember the past, revival nights. So again, no, way wrong in my opinion Mepaul50. Of course, the oldies brigade will be up in arms, and a lot of the newies brigade will ignore certain amazing banging oldies because they are too far up their own arse to rock the dance. But the venues that will be attrative to the newer faces, will be the ones with DJs who are looking to progress while at the same time working the dance floor, looking to keep things exciting, and who want to play the tunes on good sound systems, in cool venues, well promoted.

Fryer's Soul Spectrum in Scotland tonight. Try telling that lot up there there are not enough young people to make this thing work

Time changes things. It just does. Nothing stays the same for ever, not even northern soul.

Im not knocking young people joining the scene(i think its a good thing)

But

Not enough young people are going to get into northern to keep it going in the future

[Guest]

Im not knocking young people joining the scene(i think its a good thing)

But

Not enough young people are going to get into northern to keep it going in the future

Rubbish!!how do you know?,should have died yonks ago but!!

[BlueWail]

a few reasons it hasnt died out yet

the folk who have never left the scene

the influx after the mod revival in late seventies

the scooter boy influx in the eighties

the returnies who re found northern soul after the nappy changing"going down the local disco"fondue party years

can you really see a big influx of young people wanting to take over a music scene that is fourty old?

[Guest aaaaa]

b------s duffy is to northern soul what cyril smith was to hand gliding and as for banging out clubs in london with teenagers its full of people with no where to go when the pub shuts and proves nothing at all

[binsy]

Yeah the clip on here is the lunchtime edition clip that they showed. Its totally different to the tea time version and not as good. We were happy with what they did really. Its all good publicity and hopefully we'll get a few more in next month.

good luck to you lads

[Guest big A]

Amen

What a battle ground this is,

Northern is now and was back in the 70,s a label.

Do a survey ask twenty people individually at a "do" to name there top three tunes you will end up with forty or more tracks, let the music evolve to the next generation it will (trust me). As for dressing up who gives a flying f k some of the kids from Manchester/Stoke make us old gits look like tramps.

Our scene (which not of us can claim to own) will go on in one form or another long after I & many others have joined the music mastero's in the sky.

Keep the faith

The Big A

[Briles]

We did experierence the huge increase in youth at Warwick on Friday. We put on a Scooterist DJ as a one off experiment, who played Right Track, Landslide, I'm On My Way, Night Owl, Frankie Valli and finished off with Duffy which I bought for him on vinyl specially for him. Chris packed the floor with this set, but plenty of our Soulies were cringing a bit.

As the night got more bold, we got requests for the kinks - derr sorry, ok then Diana Ross - Jimmy Mack etc. We had a couple of these between us and played. em in the last hour. The floor was rammed. Put a Northern on and the floor went slightly quieter. Not easy as a DJ who knows the records he wants to play .

We had best part of 180 peeps in the building, a mix of Mods, Youth, Scooterist and Soulies of old. We had a couple for bunches of women in the 30's and 40's who had a great time but hardly knew a song. They danced and let their hair down with the rest. Now I've been pulling my hair out (wot bit got left) as to how to accomodate this factor. The music was affected, particularly the last 2 DJ's getting bombarded with requests for the snake, and ska, etc.

Not sure if they'll come back, but will be welcomed by all at Warwick, decided it's best to see how things develop as we are a relatively new club and doing well with numbers at the mo All the young uns behaved impeccably, and generally fitted right in.

Best

Dave

[Guest]

a few reasons it hasnt died out yet

the folk who have never left the scene

the influx after the mod revival in late seventies

the scooter boy influx in the eighties

the returnies who re found northern soul after the nappy changing"going down the local disco"fondue party years

can you really see a big influx of young people wanting to take over a music scene that is fourty old?

When all the above have had enough or are dead............young-uns be back in droves.might not be in our lifetime tho`.

[Pat Bleasdale]

good luck to you lads

YES. I AGREE. GOOD LUCK TO YOU. HOPE TO MAKE IT THERE SOON.

PAT.

[Guest James Trouble]

b------s duffy is to northern soul what cyril smith was to hand gliding and as for banging out clubs in london with teenagers its full of people with no where to go when the pub shuts and proves nothing at all

What a load of nonsense so many people on this forum are starting to talk. Really. London is chock full of great clubs, really exciting places to be, and folk still choose to go to Madame Jo Jo's, 100 Club, Soul Revolution etc because they are cool clubs playing exciting music. What these clubs in London playing 'northern' for want of a better word, and the new faces that attend are dancing and enjoying the music for the sake of it being good music in a good club proves is that there is a hell of a lot of life left in this thing if it is presented in the right way! And it's not just London, there are many clubs all over the country doing it, and as for Europe!!! And it's not just northern, it's RnB as well, Mik's Pow Wow in Sheffield, Juke Box Jam in London, Lost And Found with Keb and Andy, things are quit possibly as healthy as they have ever been. It's all good, and having things like Duffy in the charts is no bad thing, whether you like it or not, and proves the influence this music is having on popular club culture is having a very direct effect on the music in the charts.

I little bird has told me about a rumour that Sharon Jones has been signed by a big, no huge label. Fantastic news if it's true.

A bunch of 40 and 50 year olds jigging away only to records they remember being played when they were teenagers 30 years ago and sitting down like they are playing musical chairs when a tune comes on they don't know proves nothing and is good for nothing, other than the obvious.

Media interest, and chart success can only be a good thing IMO, and folk should stop being so precious about it, chill out and enjoy what's on offer....

Edited March 24, 2008 by James Trouble

[Pat Bleasdale]

What a load of nonsense so many people on this forum are starting to talk. Really. London is chock full of great clubs, really exciting places to be, and folk still choose to go to Madame Jo Jo's, 100 Club, Soul Revolution etc because they are cool clubs playing exciting music. What these clubs in London playing 'northern' for want of a better word, and the new faces that attend are dancing and enjoying the music for the sake of it being good music in a good club proves is that there is a hell of a lot of life left in this thing if it is presented in the right way! And it's not just London, there are many clubs all over the country doing it, and as for Europe!!! And it's not just northern, it's RnB as well, Mik's Pow Wow in Sheffield, Juke Box Jam in London, Lost And Found with Keb and Andy, things are quit possibly as healthy as they have ever been. It's all good, and having things like Duffy in the charts is no bad thing, whether you like it or not, and proves the influence this music is having on popular club culture is having a very direct effect on the music in the charts.

I little bird has told me about a rumour that Sharon Jones has been signed by a big, no huge label. Fantastic news if it's true.

A bunch of 40 and 50 year olds jigging away only to records they remember being played when they were teenagers 30 years ago and sitting down like they are playing musical chairs when a tune comes on they don't know proves nothing and is good for nothing, other than the obvious.

Media interest, and chart success can only be a good thing IMO, and folk should stop being so precious about it, chill out and enjoy what's on offer....

WENT TO SHEFFIELD LAST AUGUST BANK HOLIDAY TO THE ALLDAYER THERE. THE POW WOW WERE UPSTAIRS...THE MUSIC WAS JUST FANTASTIC THAT THEY PLAYED. LOVED ALL THE YOUNG MODS THERE.

HOPE THERE IS ANOTHER THIS YEAR.

[Realpeoplesmusic]

WENT TO SHEFFIELD LAST AUGUST BANK HOLIDAY TO THE ALLDAYER THERE. THE POW WOW WERE UPSTAIRS...THE MUSIC WAS JUST FANTASTIC THAT THEY PLAYED. LOVED ALL THE YOUNG MODS THERE.

HOPE THERE IS ANOTHER THIS YEAR.

Sorry for hijacking the thread

THE POW WOW CLUB ALLNIGHTER

SATURDAY APRIL 19th 2008

10pm til 5.00 am

THE COOLEST RHYTHM & BLUES, HIP SOUL & REAL 60s MOD SOUNDS

PENELOPES, 53-55 ARUNDAL GATE, SHEFFIELD S1 6PN

(entrance next to the Odeon cinema, opposite the Crucible theatre)

with DJs: MACE, GRAHAM WRIGHT, CALLUM, GAV ARNO & MIK PARRY

Edited March 24, 2008 by callum_64

[Paul Shirley]

people keep going on about how the scene keeps going and how its evolved ??? and how its constently changing er? i dont think so , the only thing that has changed is the music is now more divers and thats briliant and also the fact that there is more clubs around than ever before when will people stop making out that there is loads and loads of younger people keeping it going nice thought but far from the truth most of the people are stil 40 to 65 yes there are some new people around with little or no influence at all , the big change in music is the fact we now have more r&b and more diferent sorts of modern accepted or played at northern soul venues i am a big fan of this like so many others are i like what they are doing in the dda room at lowton especialy' i like what there playing at burnley as well, but that dont mean i dont like the old classics. you dont have to like or dislike one or the other what am trying to say is this scene is still mainly made up of the same people as its always been but it gets me down when people presume that we are all stuck in the past and that the people who are bringing the changes are younger , i sopose in my other posting i went ott' but what i was geting at was for me personly the term northern soul scene is or was very diferent from some peoples ideas. it started of as underground and strictly not comercial, people have tried to keep it that way for the last 30 40 years somthing most of us are proud of , i think it would be nice to keep the tradition and values thats what was the n soul scene , cd's dancing lesons and tv publicity was not in fact it is the complete oposit` so for me if all that changes its not the northern soul scene any more and starts to atract the dick heads and it wont be special any more some people are allready making it in to a joke as for the mods and scooter boys if yer know this scene they have allways been part of it from 1960's to the present day no change ther then

Edited March 25, 2008 by mepaul50

[Paul Shirley]

What a load of nonsense so many people on this forum are starting to talk. Really. London is chock full of great clubs, really exciting places to be, and folk still choose to go to Madame Jo Jo's, 100 Club, Soul Revolution etc because they are cool clubs playing exciting music. What these clubs in London playing 'northern' for want of a better word, and the new faces that attend are dancing and enjoying the music for the sake of it being good music in a good club proves is that there is a hell of a lot of life left in this thing if it is presented in the right way! And it's not just London, there are many clubs all over the country doing it, and as for Europe!!! And it's not just northern, it's RnB as well, Mik's Pow Wow in Sheffield, Juke Box Jam in London, Lost And Found with Keb and Andy, things are quit possibly as healthy as they have ever been. It's all good, and having things like Duffy in the charts is no bad thing, whether you like it or not, and proves the influence this music is having on popular club culture is having a very direct effect on the music in the charts.

I little bird has told me about a rumour that Sharon Jones has been signed by a big, no huge label. Fantastic news if it's true.

A bunch of 40 and 50 year olds jigging away only to records they remember being played when they were teenagers 30 years ago and sitting down like they are playing musical chairs when a tune comes on they don't know proves nothing and is good for nothing, other than the obvious.

Media interest, and chart success can only be a good thing IMO, and folk should stop being so precious about it, chill out and enjoy what's on offer....

i hapen to be one of the 40 to 50 year olds mate and i take a real offence wit this shi,, you have come out with in fact its all i ever hear from the few younger people who have just apeard on this scene the clubs you have mentiond i have visited and indeed enjoyed the night i agree with some of what you say but i find this image you discribe is not true any more we have loads of clubs playing loads of diferent stuff i dont jig about to tunes i heard 30 years ago my ears are open to loads of exiting stuff i go to lowtons dda room i also go to burnley these clubs along with many others are all playing exiting and diferent tunes i think you will find that nearly all of the people that atend are my age and dance all night to anything and everything weather they know it or not' to me these clubs and the scene is as exiting as it was 32 years ago but the old values and tradition regarding commercialism is what made northern soul very special and you have been involved how long?? what am trying to tel you is that we went through all this lets be populer stage in the late 70s tv top of the pops, we became a laughing stock the butt of many many jokes, you go on to say "northern soul for want of a beter word ?? exactly my point soon as you start to mention chart music and so on you lost all rispect and it aint northern soul scene any more and when it becomes so pouler every tom dick and harry start to fill your club it will become like any other night club disco full of piss heads so yeah its an extreme view but so is yours ,and i think you will find dave godin gave the name northern because at the time it was only played up here and it stayed that way for years and years the way your talking mate you would think its the other way round Edited March 25, 2008 by mepaul50

[Modernsoulsucks]

Just a couple of points.

If we learn anything from the past then I'd say it will be the hardcore attendees and collectors who will keep the thing going as is evident from the 80's/90's experience. We've had influxes due to Media attention before in the 70's and it didn't last although that's not to say that some who are attracted by the music won't stay around. This duff phenomena I would suggest is more to do with kids wanting to identify with top selling album and single. Time will tell.

Im also wondering which records are now irrelevant and who decides. If it's Black American danceable tracks then Im hard pressed to think of those that should now be confined to the dustbin of history. I would have thought it was more to do with the context in which you hear them.

Finally it has been said that perhaps Northern clubs are off-putting for a lot of younger people but the reverse is also true. I wouldn't really want to go and be surrounded by teenagers who you just know had come out and left their dirty clothes all over the bedroom floor. It would just spoil it for me!!!

ROD

Edited March 25, 2008 by modernsoulsucks

[Little-stevie]

HUNDREDS of soul events every month around the Uk and Europe.. There is so much choice for all that i don't see whats the point going on about certain places... Its quite easy for me, if i like a place and the music then i tell friends too and will return there, if i don't then i will find another event...

Just like the 80s and 90s we shall see new people come onto the scene, many will stay and some will drift away,its always been the same.. I promote the upstairs room at Soul Revolution.. we have a nice mix of people with younger and older soul crowd plus the influx of a few others, i find it quite easy as i greet most folk and chat to them, we aint had any problems apart from New Years eve with a few pretty drunk, i got them out straight away..

Any night that gets a good few non scene punters will always have problems for some, if you don't like that then there are plenty of other places to go... I have quite a few non- scene friends who come to my night in London, they all have a nice time and know what the score is, i do also like to go to some rare soul events and talk in the dark corners with the chin strokers and children of the night... I like to travel around the country and Europe to different events and a good mix of folk,some like to stay local every week with a safe crowd that they know, whats the problem, plenty choice for all...

Just do what you wanna do and do it now.. Long time dead

Edited March 25, 2008 by little-stevie

[Jules]

Seems to me there are a lot of selfish folk that think they own the music.

If you work for an employer, you don't own the business!

If you buy a television, you don't own the company.

If you listen to soul music?

The music policy on the soul scene is totally different from when I first got into it (24 years ago)but for god sake, this is boring hearing how, why's and where northern soul can be applied.

Northern soul is a past fad and when mentioned nowadays it brings back memories of the commercial scene, that's fine cos thats where it started for me, and without listening to it in the first instance, I probably wouldn't have found other tunes that I took the time to hunt down.

It may get to the stage nowadays when it is thrust down our throats, but come on, can anybody really have the power to change it?

Every week we get a British release/re-issue of a top tune from ex Wigan DJ's and their ilk, how disappointing to hunt for that elusive tune for years, just for it to be released, sometimes in better quality, to Joe Public at a cheaper price. Then, and I know a few, young DJ's buy these legitimate releases and find they get mocked because they bought and wanted to play out something they liked and soul police say no!

Yes, granted the tunes that we like, mean a lot to us in many ways. They are still not our tunes, they are there for everyone to enjoy and share. If I want to listen to rare, I go to the places that play it and that satisfies my learning curb. In between times, the rest of the population can enjoy many a good night at commercial do's and make their choice from there, it IS their choice!!!!

If somebody is daft enough to part with money and think they can buy the feeling of emotion on the dancefloor, then let them, it IS their choice.

I will bet there was a buzz of excitement in the 70's from a lot people when Chuck Wood hit the charts, and I would bet that a small minority of soul police back then had something to say about it. If someone had thought about dance classes then, it would have happened. Nothing is sacred!

There is too much bullsh#t about a northern soul scene that doesn't really exist any more, it is just quality music that exists now that has with-held the passing of time. Too many genres, too much nonsense, too many martyrs and too much narrow-mindedness.

Whatever happened to letting folk enjoy themselves in whatever they do, instead they get burned at the stake before the firing pistol is loaded!

Lighten up, Francis

H

just an obsevation mate but perhaps it would be their DECISION to turn up at a northern do rather than a choice, there is a v big difference

[Wrongcrowd]

Every week we get a British release/re-issue of a top tune from ex Wigan DJ's and their ilk, how disappointing to hunt for that elusive tune for years, just for it to be released, sometimes in better quality, to Joe Public at a cheaper price. Then, and I know a few, young DJ's buy these legitimate releases and find they get mocked because they bought and wanted to play out something they liked and soul police say no!

I've seen this type of comment far too many times, it's just another slight of the bedrock of standards that most of us hold.

Playing original release vinyl is one of the standards that is woven into the fabric of our scene, and one that makes our scene so special. Whilst there will always be those looking to make a fast buck by cashing in on someone elses hard work in finding and breaking "new" tunes, not to metion ripping off the artists for royalty entitlements through bootleg CD and vinyl, it should never be condoned through playlist use.

For me the standard of original only vinyl playlists is sacrosanct, and should not be trivilialised by mention of "soul police" in reference to so-called DJs who play boots, pressings and re-issues.

It's not ok to play re-issues, it's not what this rare soul scene is about, and never will be in my book.

If that makes me one of the "soul police" then fine with me.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Wrongcrowd

[Pat Bleasdale]

Sorry for hijacking the thread

THE POW WOW CLUB ALLNIGHTER

SATURDAY APRIL 19th 2008

10pm til 5.00 am

THE COOLEST RHYTHM & BLUES, HIP SOUL & REAL 60s MOD SOUNDS

PENELOPES, 53-55 ARUNDAL GATE, SHEFFIELD S1 6PN

(entrance next to the Odeon cinema, opposite the Crucible theatre)

with DJs: MACE, GRAHAM WRIGHT, CALLUM, GAV ARNO & MIK PARRY

ONCE AGAIN SORRY FOR THE HIGHJACK.

THANKS FOR THE INFO. PAT

[Guest James Trouble]

I've seen this type of comment far too many times, it's just another slight of the bedrock of standards that most of us hold.

Playing original release vinyl is one of the standards that is woven into the fabric of our scene, and one that makes our scene so special. Whilst there will always be those looking to make a fast buck by cashing in on someone elses hard work in finding and breaking "new" tunes, not to metion ripping off the artists for royalty entitlements through bootleg CD and vinyl, it should never be condoned through playlist use.

For me the standard of original only vinyl playlists is sacrosanct, and should not be trivilialised by mention of "soul police" in reference to so-called DJs who play boots, pressings and re-issues.

It's not ok to play re-issues, it's not what this rare soul scene is about, and never will be in my book.

If that makes me one of the "soul police" then fine with me.

Totally with you there. Take that away and the whole thing crumbles away...

However, there is a great case for their use by 'student' DJs at small mid week events in town centers or clubs that attract none soulie type people, these can act as portals into the rare soul scene propa...

And also Keb makes a pretty good case for their use, he plays more exciting sets than 99% of DJs on the rare/northern scene and he plays mostly off boots, carvers and reissues. But it's exciting what he plays, and the kids love it and will get into it because of it.

[Little-stevie]

I've seen this type of comment far too many times, it's just another slight of the bedrock of standards that most of us hold.

Playing original release vinyl is one of the standards that is woven into the fabric of our scene, and one that makes our scene so special. Whilst there will always be those looking to make a fast buck by cashing in on someone elses hard work in finding and breaking "new" tunes, not to metion ripping off the artists for royalty entitlements through bootleg CD and vinyl, it should never be condoned through playlist use.

For me the standard of original only vinyl playlists is sacrosanct, and should not be trivilialised by mention of "soul police" in reference to so-called DJs who play boots, pressings and re-issues.

It's not ok to play re-issues, it's not what this rare soul scene is about, and never will be in my book.

If that makes me one of the "soul police" then fine with me.

I don't think there is much of a problem with regards to playing boots or original records.... Most people know what places play boots/cds and who stick to the real deal and original vinyl..

Maybe we could have a different section in events for the not so real deal events

[Guest James Trouble]

i hapen to be one of the 40 to 50 year olds mate and i take a real offence wit this shi,, you have come out with in fact its all i ever hear from the few younger people who have just apeard on this scene the clubs you have mentiond i have visited and indeed enjoyed the night i agree with some of what you say but i find this image you discribe is not true any more we have loads of clubs playing loads of diferent stuff i dont jig about to tunes i heard 30 years ago my ears are open to loads of exiting stuff i go to lowtons dda room i also go to burnley these clubs along with many others are all playing exiting and diferent tunes i think you will find that nearly all of the people that atend are my age and dance all night to anything and everything weather they know it or not' to me these clubs and the scene is as exiting as it was 32 years ago but the old values and tradition regarding commercialism is what made northern soul very special and you have been involved how long?? what am trying to tel you is that we went through all this lets be populer stage in the late 70s tv top of the pops, we became a laughing stock the butt of many many jokes, you go on to say "northern soul for want of a beter word ?? exactly my point soon as you start to mention chart music and so on you lost all rispect and it aint northern soul scene any more and when it becomes so pouler every tom dick and harry start to fill your club it will become like any other night club disco full of piss heads so yeah its an extreme view but so is yours ,and i think you will find dave godin gave the name northern because at the time it was only played up here and it stayed that way for years and years the way your talking mate you would think its the other way round

But you shouldn't take offence, surely? You said we have a bunch of kids turning up only because they have nowhere else to go.That's plainly not right for you to say that. And you are obviously, so you say, not one of those people who play musical chairs when they hear tunes they don't know. So how can you take offence? And as you point out there are some top clubs all over the country, and I refer you to my previous comments about the irrelevance of age, it's a swerve ball to focus on it like some are saying that younger people won't want to hang out in clubs with older people. If you're a 'cool' character, it doesn't matter how old you are. And if it's a cool club it doesn't matter how old the people are who are in it.

You said "you go on to say "northern soul for want of a beter word ?? exactly my point soon as you start to mention chart music and so on you lost all rispect and it aint northern soul scene any more ", how exactly do I lose respect for that? As you say next sentence.... "dave godin gave the name northern because at the time it was only played up here ", which is why I said "for want of a better word". However, as I would refer you to my first post, about how 'time changes things', the music evolves, it has to as the crowds change. If it gets stuck in the past, always bringing back the memories, then it'll die because it becomes irrelevant to all but the musical chair brigade. And how does saying that this Duffy thing is only a good thing if it gets more people into the clubs bad? No one is saying that Duffy is northern soul, or it should be played at soul clubs. But to get all precious about it, I really can't see the point.

It's the same for anything in life, if you spend your days remembering how great life used to be, you're going to be pretty miserable, I think. Longing for things to be how they used to be is a sure fire way for turning into a miserable old grump.

And I'm not quite sure how relevant it is, but you asked how long I've been 'into it'. About 11 years DJing, promoting, collecting and dancing to rare soul, but how's that relevant to anything? I refer you to my first post and many posts I've made on this forum over the years about age, and how it's not relevant? If it does have some importance, then how about this: I am memeber number 663 on here, and was a member in June 03 and have made well over 2000 postings, you are member number 9320 and joined late last year and have not even posted 50 times, so useing your logic means you should agree with everything I say as you are a noob and should bow down to my superior experience and forum miles I've put in. I dunno, you forum noobs, always think you know more than us old forum veterans! (That's a bit of ironic humour BTW)

Edited March 25, 2008 by James Trouble

[Guest]

But you shouldn't take offence, surely? You said we have a bunch of kids turning up only because they have nowhere else to go.That's plainly not right for you to say that. And you are obviously, so you say, not one of those people who play musical chairs when they hear tunes they don't know. So how can you take offence? And as you point out there are some top clubs all over the country, and I refer you to my previous comments about the irrelevance of age, it's a swerve ball to focus on it like some are saying that younger people won't want to hang out in clubs with older people. If you're a 'cool' character, it doesn't matter how old you are. And if it's a cool club it doesn't matter how old the people are who are in it.

You said "you go on to say "northern soul for want of a beter word ?? exactly my point soon as you start to mention chart music and so on you lost all rispect and it aint northern soul scene any more ", how exactly do I lose respect for that? As you say next sentence.... "dave godin gave the name northern because at the time it was only played up here ", which is why I said "for want of a better word". However, as I would refer you to my first post, about how 'time changes things', the music evolves, it has to as the crowds change. If it gets stuck in the past, always bringing back the memories, then it'll die because it becomes irrelevant to all but the musical chair brigade. And how does saying that this Duffy thing is only a good thing if it gets more people into the clubs bad? No one is saying that Duffy is northern soul, or it should be played at soul clubs. But to get all precious about it, I really can't see the point.

It's the same for anything in life, if you spend your days remembering how great life used to be, you're going to be pretty miserable, I think. Longing for things to be how they used to be is a sure fire way for turning into a miserable old grump.

And I'm not quite sure how relevant it is, but you asked how long I've been 'into it'. About 11 years DJing, promoting, collecting and dancing to rare soul, but how's that relevant to anything? I refer you to my first post and many posts I've made on this forum over the years about age, and how it's not relevant? If it does have some importance, then how about this: I am memeber number 663 on here, and was a member in June 03 and have made well over 2000 postings, you are member number 9320 and joined late last year and have not even posted 50 times, so useing your logic means you should agree with everything I say as you are a noob and should bow down to my superior experience and forum miles I've put in. I dunno, you forum noobs, always think you know more than us old forum veterans!

Amen to that !!!

If there's one thing I know for sure, it's that I'm a noob and I know nothing...

[Reg]

To be fair I have read this thread with interest and I think the arguments are pretty pointless. We all have our idea of what the soul scene is for us and what kind of events we're comfortable at. Some of us are happy to go anywhere that's got a bar, others feel uncomfortable with people not like them or listening to one or two records an hour that they don't like. I haven't been to Soul Revolution but I can guess the average age is on the lower side when compared to Lifeline but I can't imagine the music's better is it? People obviously stay away from certain events out of a choice other than musical preference.

Liam and the two Paul's night (to get back on topic) isn't strictly a Northern Soul night by any stretch of the imagination so it's unlikely (Duffy at no 1 or not) that many people will cross over from that to the larger scene nor will it attract many chin strokers from dark corners (to quote Mr Cato).

Anyway I prefer the Estelle record

[Paul Shirley]

But you shouldn't take offence, surely? You said we have a bunch of kids turning up only because they have nowhere else to go.That's plainly not right for you to say that. And you are obviously, so you say, not one of those people who play musical chairs when they hear tunes they don't know. So how can you take offence? And as you point out there are some top clubs all over the country, and I refer you to my previous comments about the irrelevance of age, it's a swerve ball to focus on it like some are saying that younger people won't want to hang out in clubs with older people. If you're a 'cool' character, it doesn't matter how old you are. And if it's a cool club it doesn't matter how old the people are who are in it.

You said "you go on to say "northern soul for want of a beter word ?? exactly my point soon as you start to mention chart music and so on you lost all rispect and it aint northern soul scene any more ", how exactly do I lose respect for that? As you say next sentence.... "dave godin gave the name northern because at the time it was only played up here ", which is why I said "for want of a better word". However, as I would refer you to my first post, about how 'time changes things', the music evolves, it has to as the crowds change. If it gets stuck in the past, always bringing back the memories, then it'll die because it becomes irrelevant to all but the musical chair brigade. And how does saying that this Duffy thing is only a good thing if it gets more people into the clubs bad? No one is saying that Duffy is northern soul, or it should be played at soul clubs. But to get all precious about it, I really can't see the point.

It's the same for anything in life, if you spend your days remembering how great life used to be, you're going to be pretty miserable, I think. Longing for things to be how they used to be is a sure fire way for turning into a miserable old grump.

And I'm not quite sure how relevant it is, but you asked how long I've been 'into it'. About 11 years DJing, promoting, collecting and dancing to rare soul, but how's that relevant to anything? I refer you to my first post and many posts I've made on this forum over the years about age, and how it's not relevant? If it does have some importance, then how about this: I am memeber number 663 on here, and was a member in June 03 and have made well over 2000 postings, you are member number 9320 and joined late last year and have not even posted 50 times, so useing your logic means you should agree with everything I say as you are a noob and should bow down to my superior experience and forum miles I've put in. I dunno, you forum noobs, always think you know more than us old forum veterans! (That's a bit of ironic humour BTW)

i think if go take another look at who wrote what` you will see it wasant me who mentiond any thing to do with kids turning up and so on , there you go again if we spend our life rimembering shitt !!! cant you get it in to your head i like many other's am not stuck in the mud i find your coment insulting to say the least dont you feckin realise that this image you have only aplies to so many because again for your benefit because most of us are over 40 dosent mean we all fit in with your image that you describe ? you presume far to much mate , well member 663 it may come as a shock to you mate but until now i simply dident have the time to go posting this that but now things have changed and i now have the time , you make a hell of a lot of presumptions mate , stop trying to make out every bodys old farts apart from you!!! this scene was around a long long time before you turned up diference is this. i stil have the enthusiasm and excitement now as i did 34 years ago i stil make it my buisines to go to clubs that are more adventurous i stil dance to tunes i never heard before i also do my best to find out what the tunes are and buy them and play them !!!! will you stil be around and stil travelling to the cutting edge venues ??? when your 51 like i do or will you be making the same stupid presumptiums bin there dun it and worn the hat mate and am still doing it` so because you buy a few records spin a few tunes runn a venue dont get to carried away mate dont tarr every body with the same brush !!!!! Edited March 25, 2008 by mepaul50

[Paul Shirley]

I've seen this type of comment far too many times, it's just another slight of the bedrock of standards that most of us hold.

Playing original release vinyl is one of the standards that is woven into the fabric of our scene, and one that makes our scene so special. Whilst there will always be those looking to make a fast buck by cashing in on someone elses hard work in finding and breaking "new" tunes, not to metion ripping off the artists for royalty entitlements through bootleg CD and vinyl, it should never be condoned through playlist use.

For me the standard of original only vinyl playlists is sacrosanct, and should not be trivilialised by mention of "soul police" in reference to so-called DJs who play boots, pressings and re-issues.

It's not ok to play re-issues, it's not what this rare soul scene is about, and never will be in my book.

If that makes me one of the "soul police" then fine with me.

nice one couldent agree more !!

[Guest James Trouble]

i think if go take another look at who wrote what` you will see it wasant me who mentiond any thing to do with kids turning up and so on , there you go again if we spend our life rimembering shitt !!! cant you get it in to your head i like many other's am not stuck in the mud i find your coment insulting to say the least dont you feckin realise that this image you have only aplies to so many because again for your benefit because most of us are over 40 dosent mean we all fit in with your image that you describe ? you prisume far to mutch mate , well member 663 it may come as a shock to you mate but until now i simply dident have the time to go posting this that but now things have changed and i now have the time , you make a hell of a lot of presumptions mate , stop trying to make out every bodys old farts apart from you!!! this scene was around a long long time before you turned up diference is this. i stil have the enthusiasm and excitement now as i did 34 years ago i stil make it my buisines to go to clubs that are more adventurous i stil dance to tunes i never heard before i also do my best to find out what the tunes are and buy them and play them !!!! will you stil be around and stil travelling to the cutting edge venues ??? when your 51 like i do or will you be making the same stupid presumptiums bin there dun it and worn the hat mate and am still doing it` so because you buy a few records spin a few tunes runn a venue dont get to carried away mate dont tarr every body with the same brush !!!!!

No, you're right, it was "Upsetter" who made the comment about kids only gong out to clubs because there's nothing better to do.

You still don't seem to understand what I've written though, or maybe you've not read it properly. C'est la vie. It is quite plain to see that I have several times said age is irrelevant and I thought by pointing out in brackets that the last paragraph was ironic humour, you would understand it was ironic humour. Oh well, it's Tuesday innit, there's always the Tuesday blues on this forum...

Keep on keeping on, wigan forever, and all that...

Edited March 25, 2008 by James Trouble

[Paul Shirley]

No, you're right, it was "Upsetter" who made the comment about kids only gong out to clubs because there's nothing better to do.

You still don't seem to understand what I've written though, or maybe you've not read it properly. C'est la vie. It is quite plain to see that I have several times said age is irrelevant and I thought by pointing out in brackets that the last paragraph was ironic humour, you would understand it was ironic humour. Oh well, it's Tuesday innit, there's always the Tuesday blues on this forum...

Keep on keeping on, wigan forever, and all that...

no mate i never ever purchased a cd and wigan was and is in the past but then again some of us have a past , i lived and worked in london 20 years ago and had freinds over in southend essex at the time all i got out of them was what the f,,,ks that shi.. your playing on your casset ?its northern soul mate you wouldent understand was allways my reply , you know that will be around the time you was lisning to er? salt n pepa &soul to soul or may be pond life oh i mean park life !!!! so it was ironic humour dont you mean moronic humour

Edited March 25, 2008 by mepaul50

[Paul Shirley]

HUNDREDS of soul events every month around the Uk and Europe.. There is so much choice for all that i don't see whats the point going on about certain places... Its quite easy for me, if i like a place and the music then i tell friends too and will return there, if i don't then i will find another event...

Just like the 80s and 90s we shall see new people come onto the scene, many will stay and some will drift away,its always been the same.. I promote the upstairs room at Soul Revolution.. we have a nice mix of people with younger and older soul crowd plus the influx of a few others, i find it quite easy as i greet most folk and chat to them, we aint had any problems apart from New Years eve with a few pretty drunk, i got them out straight away..

Any night that gets a good few non scene punters will always have problems for some, if you don't like that then there are plenty of other places to go... I have quite a few non- scene friends who come to my night in London, they all have a nice time and know what the score is, i do also like to go to some rare soul events and talk in the dark corners with the chin strokers and children of the night... I like to travel around the country and Europe to different events and a good mix of folk,some like to stay local every week with a safe crowd that they know, whats the problem, plenty choice for all...

Just do what you wanna do and do it now.. Long time dead

i couldent agree more very well done !!!!

[Guest James Trouble]

no mate i never ever purchased a cd and wigan was and is in the past but then again some of us have a past , i lived and worked in london 20 years ago and had freinds over in southend essex at the time all i got out of them was what the f,,,ks that shi.. your playing on your casset ?its northern soul mate you wouldent understand was allways my reply , you know that will be around the time you was lisning to er? salt n pepa &soul to soul or may be pond life oh i mean park life !!!! so it was ironic humour dont you mean moronic humour

Sorry Paul, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I'm not sure you do either...

Probably best to chat about it in person, maybe see you at the next Burnley...

[Paul Shirley]

Congaratulations, you've just managed to prove my point and infact you put it in better words than I ever could.

Where did I say anything about changing the scene? or changing the music? I think you've completely missed the point of my post!

If people turn up once they are experimenting with something new, if they turn up again it is because they liked the experience, I doubt very much they would be turning up with a box of hard house to try and get the early spot on the deks!

If someone new can turn up to night and express themselves to the music they have just discoverd, with moves they learned / develped the previous week in their local village hall, is that such a problem for you?

So you see N.Soul as an exclusive club for 40 - 65 year olds do you? Utter rubbish. What next ...all-nighters hosted by Saga Holidays?

As someone on here has already said, it shouldn't matter what your background or age is, if you are into the music and love soul,

then they should be welcome.

I don't know anything about turning up in fancy dress, I guess if you turn up looking like a prat then you probably are one, just as if you talk like a prat then you probably are one.

Tony P

"Correct me if I am wrong, but

You cannot learn to love the music, it either grabs you by the nuts and don't let go, or it doesn't."

...I agree with you but who said otherwise?

This negativity is all very, very disappointing !

i think if you take a look at what i wrote its very diferent to your interpretation ? did i say i see the northern soul scene as an exclusive club for 40 -65 year olds ? listen prick if you dont like what i wrote try and come back with somthing that is relevent to what i actually wrote and not your twisted interpretation also who mentiond peoples backgrounds or age ? stick to fact not presumption , also its like comunicating with harry f,,in potter with all the stupid cartoon faces have you progressd out of short pants yet!!!! very disappointing potter !

[Paul Shirley]

Sorry Paul, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I'm not sure you do either...

Probably best to chat about it in person, maybe see you at the next Burnley...

ok mate no problem if i think some body is having a go i tend to jump in with both feet i got the impresion you was trying to be smart' and i aint had much sleep over the wknd may be your right' yes indeed it would be good to chat in person am going this friday lol may be i am turning in to one of them grumpy old men you was talking about lol if yer going let me know regards paul

[Guest James Trouble]

ok mate no problem if i think some body is having a go i tend to jump in with both feet i got the impresion you was trying to be smart' and i aint had much sleep over the wknd may be your right' yes indeed it would be good to chat in person am going this friday lol may be i am turning in to one of them grumpy old men you was talking about lol if yer going let me know regards paul

There's a fair chance I'll be there + I'll PM you if I am, I'll 100% be at the Metros on Saturday though if you're going there...

Edited March 26, 2008 by James Trouble

[Guest]

i think if you take a look at what i wrote its very diferent to your interpretation ? did i say i see the northern soul scene as an exclusive club for 40 -65 year olds ? listen prick if you dont like what i wrote try and come back with somthing that is relevent to what i actually wrote and not your twisted interpretation also who mentiond peoples backgrounds or age ? stick to fact not presumption , also its like comunicating with harry f,,in potter with all the stupid cartoon faces have you progressd out of short pants yet!!!! very disappointing potter !

Who`s a p**** not nice is it!!

[Ezzie Brown]

MY BOY WANTS TO DO HISTORY AT MANC MET NET YEAR< GONNA LOOK ROUND IN APRIL>>>>>>>>>>> I WILL BE DOIN IT INSTEAD>>> STAY COOL LADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BrianB]

i think if you take a look at what i wrote its very diferent to your interpretation ? did i say i see the northern soul scene as an exclusive club for 40 -65 year olds ? listen prick if you dont like what i wrote try and come back with somthing that is relevent to what i actually wrote and not your twisted interpretation also who mentiond peoples backgrounds or age ? stick to fact not presumption , also its like comunicating with harry f,,in potter with all the stupid cartoon faces have you progressd out of short pants yet!!!! very disappointing potter !

Are you being serious, or is this a big wind up?

Have you ever heard of etiquette?

[Paul Shirley]

Are you being serious, or is this a big wind up?

Have you ever heard of etiquette?

dose he play for croatia ??

[Paul Shirley]

Who`s a p**** not nice is it!!

who yours or mine or his ?

Edited March 27, 2008 by mepaul50

[BrianB]

dose he play for croatia ??

Are you from there?

[Guest]

who yours or mine or his ?

Funny ah ah!!

[Guest]

i think if you take a look at what i wrote its very diferent to your interpretation ? did i say i see the northern soul scene as an exclusive club for 40 -65 year olds ? listen prick if you dont like what i wrote try and come back with somthing that is relevent to what i actually wrote and not your twisted interpretation also who mentiond peoples backgrounds or age ? stick to fact not presumption , also its like comunicating with harry f,,in potter with all the stupid cartoon faces have you progressd out of short pants yet!!!! very disappointing potter !

Well it seem we have mis-interpreted each other then. It does happen. Hopefully we can move on now, this is apparantly a very emotive subject for many.

How did you know my name is Rick P. ...I take it that was a spelling mistake? ....here's another stupid cartoon face for good measure !

[Paul Shirley]

Well it seem we have mis-interpreted each other then. It does happen. Hopefully we can move on now, this is apparantly a very emotive subject for many.

How did you know my name is Rick P. ...I take it that was a spelling mistake? ....here's another stupid cartoon face for good measure !

ok .lol very good re spelling ,i admit to start calling people names is a bit low and not my style the last thing i wanted to do was to offend people but i felt driven to it' lol. i see you have taken it in your stride and seen it for what it was just a bit of banter that says a lot about a person in my book . i sopose i felt i was being tarred with the cloth cap back in the day when i went te' casino image brush, aniway must go as i got to see to yon racing pigions and boil some water for a bath before i go down yon pitt

Edited March 27, 2008 by mepaul50

[Paul Shirley]

Are you from there?

no but am beginig to feel as though i am

[BrianB]

The video plot thickens.

I'm sure Liam will fill us in, but a team of NS dancers, including Liam and Paul W, and others, are dancing with Duffy in Paris for her concert there next weekend.

Hope they can video it?

Brian B

[Paul Shirley]

i agree with that brian the lads very good ' i mentiond on here just after the blackpool dancing comp or farce for want of a beter word that he was the real winer at blackpool apart from liam it was a joke some woman standing on her hands kicking her legs all over the place and so on' and the young lad that was the winer what a joke' he was ,

[Guest]

Wouldn't knock anyone getting into our scene, but on the coat tails of Duffy "Northern Soul dancing lessons" are being offered at the sort of places that previously did line dancing. This is taking the piss and degrading a cool scene and your local soul do will have a load of twats doing the hokey cokey on the floor with no intresst in the scene I dispair.

Ha ha ha, funniest thing I've ever heard... How on earth can you take "Northern Soul Dance Lessons" without having a love of the music???

When I 1st started going to dos I had no idea what I was doing so I lost myself in the music, watched other people to get the general jist and just did my own thing with a few stolen moves thrown in for good measure. Hubby has done exactly the same thing too now that i've converted him to Northern Soul... watched other people, taken the music into his heart and done his own thing regardless of whatever anyone else thinks.

I never did like the hokey cokey, all that rushing in and crushing thing... Eeeeew NO THANK YOU!!!

[Guest]

Yes, granted the tunes that we like, mean a lot to us in many ways. They are still not our tunes, they are there for everyone to enjoy and share. If I want to listen to rare, I go to the places that play it and that satisfies my learning curb. In between times, the rest of the population can enjoy many a good night at commercial do's and make their choice from there, it IS their choice!!!!

If somebody is daft enough to part with money and think they can buy the feeling of emotion on the dancefloor, then let them, it IS their choice.

I will bet there was a buzz of excitement in the 70's from a lot people when Chuck Wood hit the charts, and I would bet that a small minority of soul police back then had something to say about it. If someone had thought about dance classes then, it would have happened. Nothing is sacred!

There is too much bullsh#t about a northern soul scene that doesn't really exist any more, it is just quality music that exists now that has with-held the passing of time. Too many genres, too much nonsense, too many martyrs and too much narrow-mindedness.

Whatever happened to letting folk enjoy themselves in whatever they do, instead they get burned at the stake before the firing pistol is loaded!

Right on.

That's what I wanted to say but I'm can sometimes be a Rick.P and so it just didn't come out that way.

I'm going to declare it now, I'm not a northern soulie!!! There, I said it.

I was never a mod, I never owned a scooter, I never went to Wigan or Stafford for that matter. ...I'm early 30's for heavens sake.

I'm just a bloke who loves music with heart and a sense of purpose. It just so happens that Soul music fits that bill; it aslo happens that I get a lot of enjoyment and emotion from many of the tunes that the Northern Scene enjoyed and does to this day. Some of it is utter guff, but then much of it is aboslutely awsome!!!! (It's only my opinion).

For me defining northern soul is impossible, the variety of sounds you get at an allnighter for example, its can't all be northern, ergo, northern soul is about a scene and a lifestyle choice, it's as much about a sense of identity and community as anything else.

This site is a great place to learn from people who really know their stuff and if possible, I can contribute something of value in return.

Apologies if I have offended anyone but I feel there's a lot of unnecessary hard headedness and protectiveness about the 'scene', don't get me wrong I respect it, I do.

I sincerely hope that more people come to appreciate the music and that they respect the people that have kept it alive and kicking. That's you guys by the way. I also hope that thay will be warmly received if they come in ernest.

Howeve, never having been part of it from the beginning, there sometimes seems a lot of hostility or disrespect towards folk who were not part of it from the off.

The best feeling I ever get it to play something I love to someone who's new to that style or artist and watch it blow thier mind!

Turn em on and turn em loose!

(I think I may have gone to far here... duck and cover!)

[Ady Croasdell]

That link doesn't work for me, anyone got another one?

[kimbo]

Ha ha ha, funniest thing I've ever heard... How on earth can you take "Northern Soul Dance Lessons" without having a love of the music???

When I 1st started going to dos I had no idea what I was doing so I lost myself in the music, watched other people to get the general jist and just did my own thing with a few stolen moves thrown in for good measure. Hubby has done exactly the same thing too now that i've converted him to Northern Soul... watched other people, taken the music into his heart and done his own thing regardless of whatever anyone else thinks.

I never did like the hokey cokey, all that rushing in and crushing thing... Eeeeew NO THANK YOU!!!

Hi, well its happening in Northants. How do I know the bloody managing directors wife at the place I work has started going to them. ... before that she went line dancing. The local soulnites are gonna have cloned dancers, depending on what the teacher(who's not a soulie just a dance teacher) tells them is northern soul dancing, as cant see the blue rinse brigade dancing like those in the duffy video. Its is funny though, I am now taking Line dancing so my boss doesn't find out what I've been getting up to for the past 35 years... best kimbo.

[Guest andyrattigan]

HUNDREDS of soul events every month around the Uk and Europe.. There is so much choice for all that i don't see whats the point going on about certain places... Its quite easy for me, if i like a place and the music then i tell friends too and will return there, if i don't then i will find another event...

Just like the 80s and 90s we shall see new people come onto the scene, many will stay and some will drift away,its always been the same.. I promote the upstairs room at Soul Revolution.. we have a nice mix of people with younger and older soul crowd plus the influx of a few others, i find it quite easy as i greet most folk and chat to them, we aint had any problems apart from New Years eve with a few pretty drunk, i got them out straight away..

Any night that gets a good few non scene punters will always have problems for some, if you don't like that then there are plenty of other places to go... I have quite a few non- scene friends who come to my night in London, they all have a nice time and know what the score is, i do also like to go to some rare soul events and talk in the dark corners with the chin strokers and children of the night... I like to travel around the country and Europe to different events and a good mix of folk,some like to stay local every week with a safe crowd that they know, whats the problem, plenty choice for all...

Just do what you wanna do and do it now.. Long time dead

I agree with all of the above.

I'm all for younger blood getting into the scene and I like to see new faces out and about.

What's this about dance classes? That's very contrived and artificial. Dont agree with that at all and like Kenny said. What is Northern Soul dancing? Individuals have different styles.

However, I am big on people respecting the etiquette of the Northern Scene and cant abide piss-takers or people dancing with a drink in their hands on the floor. I have a few mates curious about the Northern scene who I brought to events in Dublin but they always respected the etiquette and never took the piss.

I have mixed feelings on the Duffy phenomenon. Ive only heard Mercy and its ok but not a patch on the original Soul out there in my opinion. If it gets a few people genuinely into rare soul then thats good. The scene needs young blood and Ive been to a few nigthers down the 100 club during the last year with genuine young soulies who really added to the atmosphere. However, I dread that it might lead to people who just get into the latest fad heading to allnighters and acting the bollox for a month or two and pissing genuine punters off.

Im a tad cynical about too much media exposure though. I like the subterranean nature of the scene. Like I said Im all in to people getting into it but only if they respect the scene. People have put a lot of time, effort, love and money into following this great scene of ours. Try growing up in the west of Ireland and being into Northern Soul.

Anyway I reckon a few folk will get into the scene proper on the back of Duffy, Winehouse etc (a good thing) and a few piss takers will be around for a while and then it will just go back to those who genuinely love Soul attending events buying records etc.

Anyway we all need to lighten up a little. Mountains out of molehills springs to mind. In a year the latest wave of media attention will have disappeared and it will be the same old farts like myself and a few welcome genuine new faces on the scene.