Birth Of Modern Soul

[Ian Dewhirst]

Interesting debate this.

There's always been brand new releases played on the scene alongside the older records and this practise went all the way back to the Torch and probably even the Wheel. Here are a few examples:-

"My Man Is A Sweet Man" - Millie Jackson

"Keep On Keeping On" - N.F. Porter

"This Is The House Where Love Died" - First Choice

"Scub Board" - The Trammps

"Free For All" - Phillip Mitchell

"S.T.O.P" - The Lorelei

Etc, etc, etc. All of the above were brand new U.S. releases, were played at the key venues shortly after their release and all became huge records on the scene.

Many of us used to subscribe to Record Corners lists in the early 70's because they would often get new U.S. Northern releases which were otherwise unavailable and many of them would become huge records in their own right.

So arguably there's always been a place for contemporary new releases on the scene. It's been there since day one!

Ian D

Edited March 16, 2008 by Ian Dewhirst

[Mark R]

Ian.........though I'd be too young at the time.......all of this would seem completely logical to me............again, it's a case of the phrase "modern soul" meaning something completely different in the context of the Northern scene.

I've said it before, but I see the pigeon-holing as a sort of necessary evil...............it's kind of useful as a tool to describe tunes to people, but by it's very nature causes divisions and blatant disregard for anything not fitting in someones preferred pigeon hole!!

Hell, I'm guilty myself in print, for that very reason...........I'll use the term "real soul" to get a point across (describing the style of a tune as I think most will understand where I'm coming from), but what the hell is "real soul"???..............how condescending to everything else out there!!

Cheers,

Mark R

[Guest]

Don`t know wether this has been done before, was out last night and got into a discussion about this, it would be intresting to hear your views, although i suppose the birth of modern soul was at places like blackpool mecca,cleethorpes pier, wich dj`s do you consider to have started this movement, and wich records stand out to you as modern soul anthems. i`ll start you off with OTIS CLAY-THE ONLY WAY IS UP-ECHOE, not being a great fan of this genre of music, my knowledge is limited, but would be intresting to hear your views

How Modern do you want a record to be?. For example, I can remember cutting the rug at Torch in Stoke to Millie Jacksons - My man is a sweet man (released on Spring in USA and Mojo in the UK), I'm talking about a record that was high in the UK top 10 at the time, and IMHO is still a blinding track 35 years later

Northern, Modern, Funk, its all music and if you like it collect it, you'll regret itif you dont ....me I'm from Luton, we used to come up North every week, Cats, Torch, Mecca, Wheel, Casino occasionally, and we hated funk as done by James Brown.

I must be getting old as I REALLY regret not having more JB in my collection now....dont let your prejudices blind you to future classics..ie todays releases as that is what the scene is based on....all the sounds nobody purchased at the time of their release, OK, American indepedent labels and major US label non UK releases are the exception, BUT there must be loads of potential, dare I say it?, 'modern' bang up to the minute tracks out there.

NOTE : I no longer attend Northen, Modern, whatever, so am unable to advise on potential tracks

What is X - over soul...me, I was listening to Monkey Time, Amen, More love, She blew a good thing etc from 1966 onwards, (which

I believe now/or were getting some needle time?),prior to getting into what Dave Godin termed Northern Soul in a Blues and Soul article he wrote after a trip he made to the Twisted Wheel....is it REALLLLLLLLLY that long ago

My advice...if you like a tune, bugger what everyone else thinks, buy it, you can always open their ears later , and you're one step ahead, the scene thrives on the sounds nobody bothered with at the time of their release, or at least in my day it did.

With apologys to you Ian Dewhurst, had'nt seen you post M8, actually got copies of all the mentioned tracks, remember seeing Keep on keeping on listed in new USA releases in Blues and Soul, THEN got a copy in one of their Soul Packs, before it made it big

Edited March 21, 2008 by DanDare

[Mark R]

....dont let your prejudices blind you to future classics..ie todays releases as that is what the scene is based on....all the sounds nobody purchased at the time of their release, OK, American indepedent labels and major US label non UK releases are the exception, BUT there must be loads of potential, dare I say it?, 'modern' bang up to the minute tracks out there.

.......as you've only posted a couple of times, welcome to Soul Source.......

Cheers,

Mark R

[Sean Hampsey]

.......as you've only posted a couple of times, welcome to Soul Source.......

Cheers,

Mark R

Found a Kindred Spirit, Mark?

Agree.

Welcome DanDare!

Sean

[Ian Dewhirst]

Yep, welcome Dan Dare.

There's always a lively debate going on on here and I don't think the participents would have it any other way mate.

Weird talking about the birth of Modern Soul when a Northern Soul styled record is at No.1 in the national pop charts for the last 5 weeks and is the biggest selling record of the year though......

Theoretically, the Modern Soul re-birth should be just around the corner then....?

It's just semantics really IMO.

It's either good or not so good.

That's my criteria these days.

Ian D

[Jez Jones]

Interesting debate this.

There's always been brand new releases played on the scene alongside the older records and this practise went all the way back to the Torch and probably even the Wheel. Here are a few examples:-

"My Man Is A Sweet Man" - Millie Jackson

"Keep On Keeping On" - N.F. Porter

"This Is The House Where Love Died" - First Choice

"Scub Board" - The Trammps

"Free For All" - Phillip Mitchell

"S.T.O.P" - The Lorelei

Etc, etc, etc. All of the above were brand new U.S. releases, were played at the key venues shortly after their release and all became huge records on the scene.

Many of us used to subscribe to Record Corners lists in the early 70's because they would often get new U.S. Northern releases which were otherwise unavailable and many of them would become huge records in their own right.

So arguably there's always been a place for contemporary new releases on the scene. It's been there since day one!

Ian D

Yes you right again there mate. Just Like to throw in Archie Bell-- Here I go again also. Absolutely blew the roof of when that was first released on the scene circa 1972. When I reflect back in hindsight (great tool that is!!) it was a 'modern soul' record but fitted in seamlessly in a northern soul set back in the day but probably (and its just my opinion ) was one of the 'first' of the term 'overplayed classics. Its longevity on the scene back then seemed limited. Maybe 2/3months , but that could be because of the quality of the other stuff that was breaking at the time!

Taking this theme back a touch earlier Hot Wax released some stuff back in 69/70 that by definition was 'modern soul'

Flaming embers----westbound number 9

Honey cone--------While your out looking for sugar (want Ads also i think!)

100 proof aged in soul----somebody's been sleeping in my bed.

These weren't 'monster records' but I think they found popularity on a more regional basis. In fact the embers may have got a spin at the wheel (anyone confirm?)

IMHO these records 'suffered' and no doubt a fair few others because of the 'black hole' the period when the wheel shut and the torch (as a nighter venue) opened. So for a period the scene was pretty regionalised I think and records couldn't get the exposure of a major nighter venue.

Anyone got any examples of vinyl from that period that didn't get the major nighter plays ?

[Mark R]

Found a Kindred Spirit, Mark?

Agree.

Sean

Absolutely Sean..........it's all still out there mate, from Maurice's "It's Been Revealed" to Kimara Lovelace's "Merry Go Round", and long may it continue It's exciting, and every week I wanna know what's next!!

Cheers,

Mark R

[Bazm]

However,modern soul means different things to different people and having read the review of the modern room at Prestwich I fail to see how it has any relevance to a large part of the Northern/Rare scene. This is not to denigrate the music at all but to point out that there is no common ground at all other than being held in the same venue and that there are some who like soul from all eras but very few.

It may as well be Irish dancing in the other room as for it's influence or impact on either traditional Northern nights or more "upfront" or different venues say such as Burnley or Soulful Shack to name a couple.

ROD

Hi Rod Hope you are keeping well.......................

I dont normally get involved in the 'what's modern got to do with it' kinda threads cause it's all pretty much subjective (see Barry May's earlier more passionate posting) but I thought I would reply seeing as you've specifically mentioned the Prestwich review i'd posted.

The post was made more as an insight, to anyone who may be interested, into what kind of music is being played at Prestwich, hopefully to raise curiosity levels enough to tempt them to join us on the first Friday of the month to come and have a look-see and listen for themselves as to the superb new music around at the moment.

As far as the Modern Room at Prestwich being (or trying to be) anything to do with the Northern Scene it's quite simple; It's not! It is, as you say, a room that just happens to be at the same venue.

However, I'm not convinced that there is 'no common ground at all' other than that. In the first instance, there are more people than you seem to give credit to, who actually flit between the two rooms and enjoy both the Northern AND Modern (upfront) Soul being played at the venue. There have been quite a number of people from the Northern Room who over the years have become 'hooked' on the music played in the Modern Room at Prestwich and have become as dedicated to new music as they were to the old, (but interstingly not much the other way round). That aside, the main common ground to me is that the music being played is predominantly BLACK AMERICAN MUSIC more popularialy known as 'SOUL!'

If we are going to discuss Modern Soul and how it fits into Northern perhaps we should agree, that in the main it won't! The Northern Scene is strong enough and has been going long enough to be quite definined as a predominantly 60's based music scene and even within that broad base there are factions enough without trying to bring so called 'Modern Soul' into the mix.

In the main a record or track will only be labled a 'modern soul' record if, as it has been pointed out in this thread, it will 'fit in seamlessly in a Northern Soul set', Hey Presto! Michael Watford (seamless?) suddenly stops becomming a 'bang bang house record' and becomes 'Modern Soul'. To quite a few on here it was a Modern Soul record the day it was released. This, as far as i'm concerned, is the labeling template for any post 70's record adopted and played on the Northern Scene but interestingly (or not) these records will ALWAYS be labled 'Modern' and never be fully accpeted as 'Northern' even though they fulfill 99% of the criteria. This labeling process also preciptates the continued use of the word 'Modern' to describe anything that is played that isn't 60's which does piss me off and is potentially damaging cause some people still think it's Driza 'effin Bone!

So where is the main link between the so called 'Modern Scene' and the Northern Scene today? Well Rod as you point out, it isn't the Modern Room at Prestwich! IMHO the link comes from forward thinking dj's who will seek out and champion something different and venues like the Orwell, were a pretty broad spectrum of Soul Music can be played, from the latest independant CD releases to obscure 70's (Modern!) thru to brand new uptempo Soulful Dance Music, some of which, at some point in time, will have the potential to be adopted and have some influence on the Northern Scene (and in some cases already have)

All the Best

BazM

[Sean Hampsey]

Absolutely Sean..........it's all still out there mate, from Maurice's "It's Been Revealed" to Kimara Lovelace's "Merry Go Round", and long may it continue It's exciting, and every week I wanna know what's next!!

Cheers,

Mark R

Spot on Mark, it is all still out there... but Soul fans have to dig harder to find the quality of yesteryear. For me that might mean buying lots of new albums every month, doing the research, staying 'in touch' and informed, seeking out recommendations from those whose 'taste' you trust and basically just not accepting the weird notion that the artform is no longer in existence or that the artists, somehow, are no longer capable of producing the art!

The Maurice album is a real gem and "It's Been Revealed" and the like will certainly be getting a spin in my Essence set next month!

Sean

[Ian Dewhirst]

Yes you right again there mate. Just Like to throw in Archie Bell-- Here I go again also. Absolutely blew the roof of when that was first released on the scene circa 1972. When I reflect back in hindsight (great tool that is!!) it was a 'modern soul' record but fitted in seamlessly in a northern soul set back in the day but probably (and its just my opinion ) was one of the 'first' of the term 'overplayed classics. Its longevity on the scene back then seemed limited. Maybe 2/3months , but that could be because of the quality of the other stuff that was breaking at the time!

Taking this theme back a touch earlier Hot Wax released some stuff back in 69/70 that by definition was 'modern soul'

Flaming embers----westbound number 9

Honey cone--------While your out looking for sugar (want Ads also i think!)

100 proof aged in soul----somebody's been sleeping in my bed.

These weren't 'monster records' but I think they found popularity on a more regional basis. In fact the embers may have got a spin at the wheel (anyone confirm?)

IMHO these records 'suffered' and no doubt a fair few others because of the 'black hole' the period when the wheel shut and the torch (as a nighter venue) opened. So for a period the scene was pretty regionalised I think and records couldn't get the exposure of a major nighter venue.

Anyone got any examples of vinyl from that period that didn't get the major nighter plays ?

It might be pushing it to describe the Hot Wax gear as Modern though Jez. In many ways it was a continuation of the Motown sound which continued quite a while after Motown had started to switch their own sound to a more contemporary path. If you see what I mean.......

I have my own natural kick off point for the term 'Modern Soul' which I reckon must be post 1970 to distinguish the sound from the 60's style. Also I'd argue that for calling any Modern Soul after 1980, '80's Modern' as techniques were changing a lot in the early 80's.

And what about either The Politicians "Love Machine" or the Barrino Brothers "I Shall Not Be Moved" from the same Invictus/Hot Waz stable as examples of tracks which never crossed-over to the Northern scene at the time?

In fact, I'm playing "I Shall Not Be Moved" as I write this and it's almost inconceivable that it was never played on the scene, including by myself to my everlasting shame! What were we thinking........?

Ian D

03_I_Shall_Not_Be_Moved.mp3