Us Soul - Is It Over?

[Dave Moore]

Here's an observation:

Amy Winehouse

Joss Stone

Duffy

Nicole Willis

Sven Zetterberg

All white or/and European/British singers enjoying lots of chart success. (Whether you like their efforts or not is immaterial). I think it's fair to say that their music is based on the traditional 60s soul 'sound', even if you do think it's a pastiche of classic soul.

Recent top similar acts in the US (the traditional place of soul music)?

Sharon Jones.

Have we got more discerning lugs or have the US music buying public finally been swamped by the plastic ghetto orientated gangsta rap gubbins?

[Guest malayka]

Recent top similar acts in the US (the traditional place of soul music)?

Sharon Jones.

....what's with Amp Fiddler? Or is he not considered to be "traditional"?

[Guest]

Have we got more discerning lugs or have the US music buying public finally been swamped by the plastic ghetto orientated gangsta rap gubbins?

I think you hit the nail on the head mate!

I would add that our ("OUR" being the U.K Northern Soul frat) 40 plus years experience with the music gives us a more discerning edge I feel....

.... and lets face it....this is OUR music.

But we can also apreciate good Soul from the likes of Duffy and Amy etc.

[Dave Moore]

Recent top similar acts in the US (the traditional place of soul music)?

Sharon Jones.

....what's with Amp Fiddler? Or is he not considered to be "traditional"?

Would hardly class Amp with the new generation of young soulsters to be honest. I'd also not regard him as a 'retro' soulster. He's been around for over 20 years and good as his music is I wouldn't say he's enjoyed the commercial success of the European's I listed. My post wasn't a critique of US music but rather just a general observation about the people who listen to music on both sides of the Atlantic more than anything.

[jocko]

Or maybe just Black American culture has moved on and they are making music more relevant to them now-adays, It may surprise you but the people making "our" music probably have never given a massive thought to making music to suit the dance floors of Northern England,and WTF should they.

The discerning ear is even more baffling, is this than the artists that made the music in the past or the ones who don't give a damn about it now as they are making modern soul music!! I would suggest it is only "our" music because it encompasses everything from C&W to R&R, oh and sometimes soul **

I agree with the leave 60's lovers to love 60's only, per President Pete, but in the same way why make ridiculous comparisons to contemporary artists.

Sorry Dave, you are a fine bloke but that is one of the daftest questions on here yet, go and find yourself some recent Southern soul (there is millions of crap) which is probably closer to what you would consider soul or even some contemporary soul (such as Amp Fiddler) before having such a narrow base of comparison.

** Yes I know that is sarcastic but to a general soul lover it sometimes seems on here, other than the media threads, the majority of people don't even like soul

*** Dave happy to do you some CD's but they won't sound like 60's as surely you will see when you think about it WTF should they, its 2007, America has changed a little since 1965!!

[boba]

Or maybe just Black American culture has moved on and they are making music more relevant to them now-adays, It may surprise you but the people making "our" music probably have never given a massive thought to making music to suit the dance floors of Northern England,and WTF should they.

I listen to urban radio now in the US. I never hear the artists that Dave listed (I'm more likely to hear those on a pop or adult station). I do hear artists that I feel are influenced by classic soul -- for example, John Legend -- but they are more influenced by truly "classic soul" artists such as stevie wonder and donnie hathaway, artists that appeal less to northern audiences.

[Dave Moore]

Or maybe just Black American culture has moved on and they are making music more relevant to them now-adays, It may surprise you but the people making "our" music probably have never given a massive thought to making music to suit the dance floors of Northern England,and WTF should they.

The discerning ear is even more baffling, is this than the artists that made the music in the past or the ones who don't give a damn about it now as they are making modern soul music!! I would suggest it is only "our" music because it encompasses everything from C&W to R&R, oh and sometimes soul **

I agree with the leave 60's lovers to love 60's only, per President Pete, but in the same way why make ridiculous comparisons to contemporary artists.

Sorry Dave, you are a fine bloke but that is one of the daftest questions on here yet, go and find yourself some recent Southern soul (there is millions of crap) which is probably closer to what you would consider soul or even some contemporary soul (such as Amp Fiddler) before having such a narrow base of comparison.

** Yes I know that is sarcastic but to a general soul lover it sometimes seems on here, other than the media threads, the majority of people don't even like soul

*** Dave happy to do you some CD's but they won't sound like 60's as surely you will see when you think about it WTF should they, its 2007, America has changed a little since 1965!!

I think you completely missed the point of my post Mate. As I stated, it wasn't a critique of the music being produced in the US. It was more a look at the music buying public and their differences on either side of the pond. I've not criticized anyone or anything. I've simply put forward an observation that UK/European music buyers seem to have a penchant for retro soul produced to sound like the classic period of the 60s. You'd think that with the success of Amy, Duffy, Joss etc that some enterprising producer/label would have spotted it and maybe tried to reproduce it is all.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that 'the people making "our" music probably have never given a massive thought to making music to suit the dance floors of Northern England'. I never stated that they did or should have. In fact I don't relate that part of your post to anything I wrote. I simply asked a question. I don't understand the 'rant'.

I've searched out Southern Soul with some sucess but thanks for the tip it's appreciated...

I think Amp Fiddler is the dogs nads. But that wasn't really the point I was attempting to make. I never made any comparisons with ANY artists. Did you actually read my post Jocko?

PS... Any CDs will be gratefully recieved. No 6Ts though...I have a houseful of that already. Cheers.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Dave Moore

[Dave Moore]

I listen to urban radio now in the US. I never hear the artists that Dave listed (I'm more likely to hear those on a pop or adult station). I do hear artists that I feel are influenced by classic soul -- for example, John Legend -- but they are more influenced by truly "classic soul" artists such as stevie wonder and donnie hathaway, artists that appeal less to northern audiences.

Hi Boba,

Yep, I'd agree with that. The influences on young black musicians/singers in the US is bound to be reflected by the commercially successful artists that came before them to a large degree. The same artists would have influenced the Amy's, Duffy's and Joss'. In an industry that is falling apart at the seams due to the result of the internet's influence I'd have thought some enterprising producer would have jumped all over the retro soul sound in the wake of Joss and Amy's success. In my opinion the Duffy success is a result of Amy's success in the commercial pop market. Ain't no big thing....just an observation.

[TheHoneyDripper]

Here's an observation:

Amy Winehouse

Joss Stone

Duffy

Nicole Willis

Sven Zetterberg

All white or/and European/British singers enjoying lots of chart success.

Nicole Willis is American (from NYC).

[Dave Moore]

Nicole Willis is American (from NYC).

Then I stand corrected. Many thanks. She recorded here though (Europe) right? Her success is based here? I know they've tried to penetrate the US market but I never heard anything by them on any radio station there. Shame...they deserve success there. Hopefully the US market will embrace them eventually.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Hi Dave

I think there is a soul renaissance going on here and there. There are some who find this trendy and positive. Duffy was on a UK programme the other week and the group had drums, guitars, bass congas and keyboards in her backing group. All very traditional and sounded good.

[ZapatootheTiger]

Liked Joss Stone's first album...can't stand Amy Wineyarse, her behaviour or her painful voice...love Nicole Willis's songs...quite like Sharon Jones' stuff...never heard of Duffy till an hour ago (via a youtube link posted in another music forum), but just ordered her upcoming CD.

I rarely listen to music on the radio...

Do I win £5?

Edited February 19, 2008 by ZapatootheTiger

[Guest]

I guess one thing that comes across with the likes of Duffy & Amy Winehouse is that they are bringing the sound of 60's soul music to the masses.

[ZapatootheTiger]

Well Amy can jolly well take it away again...

[Guest Paul]

Interesting point, Dave.

There's always something good out there - such as Eli Reed, Sharon Jones etc - but the vast majority of American acts are sub standard, contrived or cliched.

Meanwhile, British acts such as Adele, Duffy and Amy Winehouse have captured a raw feel which is sadly lacking in American music.

Not soul music, perhaps, but the spirit is there.

Best regards,

Paul

[Guest mel brat]

I guess one thing that comes across with the likes of Duffy & Amy Winehouse is that they are bringing the sound of 60's soul music to the masses.

But how come these "masses" never seem to accept Soul music on it's own terms? Why does it always have to be filtered through some trendy white young thing, who can (and often does) drop the music like a hot potato when it suits their career to do so?

[TheHoneyDripper]

Then I stand corrected. Many thanks. She recorded here though (Europe) right? Her success is based here?

Dave - she lives in Finland and records for a Helsinki label, Timmion Records although I believe that her last LP has been recently licensed to US and UK labels. That ought to increase her profile a lot.

[Guest Goldwax]

Check out Ryan Shaw (I think a couple of his tunes were uploaded to Refosoul recently)

[Guest]

But how come these "masses" never seem to accept Soul music on it's own terms? Why does it always have to be filtered through some trendy white young thing, who can (and often does) drop the music like a hot potato when it suits their career to do so?

Probably because the masses don't listen to soul radio shows and have no idea that great soul music exists other than what they hear on Radio 1 & 2 or local stations.

[Dave Thorley]

Would hardly class Amp with the new generation of young soulsters to be honest. I'd also not regard him as a 'retro' soulster. He's been around for over 20 years and good as his music is I wouldn't say he's enjoyed the commercial success of the European's I listed. My post wasn't a critique of US music but rather just a general observation about the people who listen to music on both sides of the Atlantic more than anything.

I understand your comments. But my experience while traveling round the US is that yes a fair bit of 'traditional' soul is still being made. Not in the same volume as before, as just with here the youth of america have moved on. Many small labels are still producing great music, Coastal Records in Atlanta, Ecko in Memphis, R.A.W-Birmingham, Wilbe-Atlanta, Senator Jones Organisation, Malaco, Holland Brothers the list goes on and on.

The problem is more that we don't get to hear as much as we did as they have dropped outside the major distribution channels. Most are run by old timers who didn't keep pace with the changes in distribution and promotion, so much of their out put is now only locally heard. Over the last few years they have found it harder and harder to get their stuff distributed or even get air play. The politics surrounding US radio play has made it a closed shop to many of them, dominated by the majors.

Early this year we started a side of our business called Plug & Play to help independants get their stuff out to DJ's and columnists over here. Over the last few years many people I know have asked if we can help with contacts in europe. The first thing we helped with was the 12" from Ebony Evans, through Coastal Records. They were very pleased with the feed back they got from our mail out. Now we can't do much to dent the wall of indiffrence in the U.S. or here, but we thought we would try.

Lastly if you regularly go on sites like EMS Forum, or sales sites like CDBaby or Soul Tracks you will be amazed how much is really out there. But you won't find it in your local HMV.

Soul Music in the U.S. is alive, but a bit of a sickly child that needs our help.

Dave

Edited February 20, 2008 by Dave Thorley

[Guest posstot]

Or maybe just Black American culture has moved on and they are making music more relevant to them now-adays, It may surprise you but the people making "our" music probably have never given a massive thought to making music to suit the dance floors of Northern England,and WTF should they.

The discerning ear is even more baffling, is this than the artists that made the music in the past or the ones who don't give a damn about it now as they are making modern soul music!! I would suggest it is only "our" music because it encompasses everything from C&W to R&R, oh and sometimes soul **

I agree with the leave 60's lovers to love 60's only, per President Pete, but in the same way why make ridiculous comparisons to contemporary artists.

Sorry Dave, you are a fine bloke but that is one of the daftest questions on here yet, go and find yourself some recent Southern soul (there is millions of crap) which is probably closer to what you would consider soul or even some contemporary soul (such as Amp Fiddler) before having such a narrow base of comparison.

** Yes I know that is sarcastic but to a general soul lover it sometimes seems on here, other than the media threads, the majority of people don't even like soul

*** Dave happy to do you some CD's but they won't sound like 60's as surely you will see when you think about it WTF should they, its 2007, America has changed a little since 1965!!

bloodyhell, he was only making conversation.....WTF....... .

You don't share your taste with the sixties boys and girls then....Are you more of a disco lover ?

regards Mike..60's Dinosaur...Soul music lover!!

[Cheapsiderecords]

See if you can find Jully Black's version of Etta's Seven Day Fool, I nearly spilt me Special K when the video came on local cable news channel. She is a young lass from Toronto.

I was dispatched by the wife to buy the CD but - Oh Dear!!!

[stomper45]

Here's an observation:

Amy Winehouse

Joss Stone

Duffy

Nicole Willis

Sven Zetterberg

All white or/and European/British singers enjoying lots of chart success. (Whether you like their efforts or not is immaterial). I think it's fair to say that their music is based on the traditional 60s soul 'sound', even if you do think it's a pastiche of classic soul.

Recent top similar acts in the US (the traditional place of soul music)?

Sharon Jones.

Have we....

add

Outcast

Knarls Barclay

Dave's post sums it up

[Dave Moore]

I understand your comments. But my experience while traveling round the US is that yes a fair bit of 'traditional' soul is still being made. Not in the same volume as before, as just with here the youth of america have moved on. Many small labels are still producing great music, Coastal Records in Atlanta, Ecko in Memphis, R.A.W-Birmingham, Wilbe-Atlanta, Senator Jones Organisation, Malaco, Holland Brothers the list goes on and on.

The problem is more that we don't get to hear as much as we did as they have dropped outside the major distribution channels. Most are run by old timers who didn't keep pace with the changes in distribution and promotion, so much of their out put is now only locally heard. Over the last few years they have found it harder and harder to get their stuff distributed or even get air play. The politics surrounding US radio play has made it a closed shop to many of them, dominated by the majors.

Early this year we started a side of our business called Plug & Play to help independants get their stuff out to DJ's and columnists over here. Over the last few years many people I know have asked if we can help with contacts in europe. The first thing we helped with was the 12" from Ebony Evans, through Coastal Records. They were very pleased with the feed back they got from our mail out. Now we can't do much to dent the wall of indiffrence in the U.S. or here, but we thought we would try.

Lastly if you regularly go on sites like EMS Forum, or sales sites like CDBaby or Soul Tracks you will be amazed how much is really out there. But you won't find it in your local HMV.

Soul Music in the U.S. is alive, but a bit of a sickly child that needs our help.

Dave

Yep I'd also agree with most of that too Dave. I know the music is being produced, (albeit in much less quantity than in the past). I also find it strange that the likes of Henry Stone can't seem to dent the RnB/Pop charts, even with his experience. The Three Tenors and The Philly/Detroit projects haven't shown on any chart in the US to my knowledge either. My original question was more to do with the US soul buying public rather than the actual music's production. It's a small introspective world is the soul scene, we tend to elevate our importance as paying fans, if only soul fans bought soul music it would never show on ANY chart. To chart it needs the 'regular' music buying public to respond to it. With the likes of Amy W, Joss S and Duffy the great British public did that and hence their success on your shores. That success is now being exported to the US. Strange eh? That the UK is now exporting 'soul' to the US and the US music buying public are lapping it up. Until Clear Channel in the US open up their playlist management or someone decides to take them on, then I fear that the days of specialized fm radio in the US are numbered. Thank God for the internet. Like I say...just an observation.

[Guest nusha]

I know its not fahionable on here to dig current urban music but i will take Ne yo/ Ommarion /Mary J /Rahsan Patterson/ Mario/Eric Benet / Jagged Edge /Bobby Valentino/ Keyshia Cole /Chingy /Kelly Roland,over any of these euro conceived blue eyed wonders any day.Their image is clever but the music is all a trick.Current R&B for me.

[45cellar]

Yep I'd also agree with most of that too Dave. I know the music is being produced, (albeit in much less quantity than in the past). I also find it strange that the likes of Henry Stone can't seem to dent the RnB/Pop charts, even with his experience. The Three Tenors and The Philly/Detroit projects haven't shown on any chart in the US to my knowledge either. My original question was more to do with the US soul buying public rather than the actual music's production. It's a small introspective world is the soul scene, we tend to elevate our importance as paying fans, if only soul fans bought soul music it would never show on ANY chart. To chart it needs the 'regular' music buying public to respond to it. With the likes of Amy W, Joss S and Duffy the great British public did that and hence their success on your shores. That success is now being exported to the US. Strange eh? That the UK is now exporting 'soul' to the US and the US music buying public are lapping it up. Until Clear Channel in the US open up their playlist management or someone decides to take them on, then I fear that the days of specialized fm radio in the US are numbered. Thank God for the internet. Like I say...just an observation.

I would love to see more Artists record in the 60's / 70's Style of Soul Music.

Following the success of Motown, Stax, and all of those lovely 60's / 70's Labels,

It is Amazing that it's taken Amy Winehouse & Co to try to re-create that wonderful style & sound we love to hear.

Suprised that more American Artists are not following a Similar path.

All the Artists on Standing In The Shadows of Motown did a fine job Vocally.

The Funk Brothers, perfection as Always & Surely the best Inspiration there is.

Anything happening regarding this project. >>> LINK <<<

Edited February 20, 2008 by 45cellar

[boba]

I know its not fahionable on here to dig current urban music but i will take Ne yo/ Ommarion /Mary J /Rahsan Patterson/ Mario/Eric Benet / Jagged Edge /Bobby Valentino/ Keyshia Cole /Chingy /Kelly Roland,over any of these euro conceived blue eyed wonders any day.Their image is clever but the music is all a trick.Current R&B for me.

how did Chingy end up on that list?

[Dave Thorley]

I would love to see more Artists record in the 60's / 70's Style of Soul Music.

Following the success of Motown, Stax, and all of those lovely 60's / 70's Labels,

It is Amazing that it's taken Amy Winehouse & Co to try to re-create that wonderful style & sound we love to hear.

Suprised that more American Artists are not following a Similar path.

All the Artists on Standing In The Shadows of Motown did a fine job Vocally.

The Funk Brothers, perfection as Always & Surely the best Inspiration there is.

Anything happening regarding this project. >>> LINK <<<

Even more bizaar when you it was Little Beaver and Betty Wright that help produce and play on the Joss Stone LP.

[Dave Thorley]

I know its not fahionable on here to dig current urban music but i will take Ne yo/ Ommarion /Mary J /Rahsan Patterson/ Mario/Eric Benet / Jagged Edge /Bobby Valentino/ Keyshia Cole /Chingy /Kelly Roland,over any of these euro conceived blue eyed wonders any day.Their image is clever but the music is all a trick.Current R&B for me.

I agree urban is where US black music is now in the US and it does sell well. Over the last few years there have been lots of great stuff coming out, both old school and new. Those that say there isn't just aren't hearing it or looking hard enough.

Ebony Evans, Angie Stone, Wilson Meadows, JXL, Chicago Steppers Collective, Carla Cook, Butch Williams, Zell, Jeff Hendrick, Groove Monster, L Young, C-Smooth, James Ray, D.L. Wilson, Angela Johnson the list is endless

Just check out this site

https://www.soultracks.com/

Edited February 20, 2008 by Dave Thorley

[Guest Paul]

I understand your comments. But my experience while traveling round the US is that yes a fair bit of 'traditional' soul is still being made. Not in the same volume as before, as just with here the youth of america have moved on. Many small labels are still producing great music, Coastal Records in Atlanta, Ecko in Memphis, R.A.W-Birmingham, Wilbe-Atlanta, Senator Jones Organisation, Malaco, Holland Brothers the list goes on and on.

The problem is more that we don't get to hear as much as we did as they have dropped outside the major distribution channels. Most are run by old timers who didn't keep pace with the changes in distribution and promotion, so much of their out put is now only locally heard. Over the last few years they have found it harder and harder to get their stuff distributed or even get air play. The politics surrounding US radio play has made it a closed shop to many of them, dominated by the majors.

Early this year we started a side of our business called Plug & Play to help independants get their stuff out to DJ's and columnists over here. Over the last few years many people I know have asked if we can help with contacts in europe. The first thing we helped with was the 12" from Ebony Evans, through Coastal Records. They were very pleased with the feed back they got from our mail out. Now we can't do much to dent the wall of indiffrence in the U.S. or here, but we thought we would try.

Lastly if you regularly go on sites like EMS Forum, or sales sites like CDBaby or Soul Tracks you will be amazed how much is really out there. But you won't find it in your local HMV.

Soul Music in the U.S. is alive, but a bit of a sickly child that needs our help.

Dave

Hello Dave,

I admire your faith but I think we have to admit, sadly, that good tracks are heavily outnumbered by second-rate tracks these days.

No matter how many DJs or columnists you can reach, physical sales remain very low - even for Ecko and Malaco etc. And the figures are getting lower every year.

Another problem is that downloads aren't yet generating enough income to compensate for the loss of physical sales. And too many people are getting illegal downloads - and in most cases I suspect they only get them because they are free.

Ironically, sales of back-catalogue product are either static or increasing for most indie labels. That suggests there is far more interest in "classic soul" than contemporary soul - not just in the UK but also in Europe, the USA and Japan.

These are hard facts, not opinions.

Today's music business is difficult in general for most people but it is particularly difficult for contemporary soul music. There has to be a reason for that and I think we all know the answer.

Best regards,

Paul

www.millbrand.com

[Dave Thorley]

Hello Dave,

I admire your faith but I think we have to admit, sadly, that good tracks are heavily outnumbered by second-rate tracks these days.

No matter how many DJs or columnists you can reach, physical sales remain very low - even for Ecko and Malaco etc. And the figures are getting lower every year.

Another problem is that downloads aren't yet generating enough income to compensate for the loss of physical sales. And too many people are getting illegal downloads - and in most cases I suspect they only get them because they are free.

Ironically, sales of back-catalogue product are either static or increasing for most indie labels. That suggests there is far more interest in "classic soul" than contemporary soul - not just in the UK but also in Europe, the USA and Japan.

These are hard facts, not opinions.

Today's music business is difficult in general for most people but it is particularly difficult for contemporary soul music. There has to be a reason for that and I think we all know the answer.

Best regards,

Paul

www.millbrand.com

I don't have rose tinted glasses and I know it's hard for these guys. But I do speak to Larry at Ecko and Manny at Coastal on a regular basis and they do see a future. But it has taken a time for them to get connected to new sales/distribution channels and this includes the use of download, internet sites etc. But the things you outline are not unique to Soul Music it is a general problem for the entire music industry.

As for quality, there have always been good and bad, there was lots of siht made back then as well. But some in the UK view things from a norrow view and want everything to sound like yesterday, it never will.

Even if recordings are made with full instrumentation, real time recording sessions etc etc. Studio equipment is different, studios are built differently, so the sound can never be the same.

But lets all be very British about this 'It's over, the end is nie, it will never be the same again'

Back in the late 70's early 80's people on this scene used to say the same thing, funny thing is the records they used to sight as examples of the change are the very records now filling the floors at many venues. We may not have wax records or tunes that sound like 1968 in the future, but I'm sure we will still have good vocal black music, that makes us get up on the floor.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Dave Thorley

[Guest Paul]

I don't have rose tinted glasses and I know it's hard for these guys. But I do speak to Larry at Ecko and Manny at Coastal on a regular basis and they do see a future. But it has taken a time for them to get connected to new sales/distribution channels and this includes the use of download, internet sites etc. But the things you outline are not unique to Soul Music it is a general problem for the entire music industry.

As for quality, there have always been good and bad, there was lots of siht made back then as well. But some in the UK view things from a norrow view and want everything to sound like yesterday, it never will.

Even if recordings are made with full instrumentation, real time recording sessions etc etc. Studio equipment is different, studios are built differently, so the sound can never be the same.

But lets all be very British about this 'It's over, the end is nie, it will never be the same again'

Back in the late 70's early 80's people on this scene used to say the same thing, funny thing is the records they used to sight as examples of the change are the very records now filling the floors at many venues. We may not have wax records or tunes that sound like 1968 in the future, but I'm sure we will still have good vocal black music, that makes us get up on the floor.

Hello again Dave,

I'm well aware that many problems are general but contemporary soul music has additional problems - some of which are due to the standard of music.

I say this as someone who has always supported and promoted contemporary music. I still buy hundreds of new albums every year and my company still invests in contemporary soul music (our clients include Ecko South, Bettye LaVette, Simone De) but I believe 90% of the music just isn't good enough. And one or two good tracks don't make an album.

The only people who really impress me at the moment are Sharon Jones and Eli Reed, both of whom happen to record with real bands on analogue equipment, as does Bettye LaVette who is more successful today than ever before. They also have strong material. I believe "the song is everything" (that's why I'm a music publisher) and good songs are in short supply.

Things won't get better until we admit that something's wrong.

Best regards,

Paul

Edited February 20, 2008 by Paul

[Dave Thorley]

Hello again Dave,

I'm well aware that many problems are general but contemporary soul music has additional problems - some of which are due to the standard of music.

I say this as someone who has always supported and promoted contemporary music. I still buy hundreds of new albums every year and my company still invests in contemporary soul music (our clients include Ecko South, Bettye LaVette, Simone De) but I believe 90% of the music just isn't good enough. And one or two good tracks don't make an album.

The only people who really impress me at the moment are Sharon Jones and Eli Reed, both of whom happen to record with real bands on analogue equipment, as does Bettye LaVette who is more successful today than ever before. They also have strong material. I believe "the song is everything" (that's why I'm a music publisher) and good songs are in short supply.

Things won't get better until we admit that something's wrong.

Best regards,

Paul

On this one point we do agree, quality song writing is a failing art. Great dance track but 'You can do it if you put your back into it' sums up the poor state of song writing. This is one area where Hip Hop and modern R&B is to blame. People falling over themselves to applaude poor song writing skills. So new writers and artists don't try cuz the bench mark is so low.

[Neiljon31]

Has it got soul ?

Is it soul?

Two different questions,

an awful lot of US output might not be what perhaps most people on here will call 'soul' and without wishing to open a further 'house music' debate much of the US House I hear HAS GOT SOUL, more so than a lot of the acts that might be classed as Soul !

Jocko is correct (except is 2008 Jock) times move on and why would a teenager living in New Jersey not want to make contemporary sounds ?

cheers

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Well, I am trying to do my bit, and it is not simple. I write songs that will never see the light of day unless I do it myself...and I am hopefully next month in Detroit. My songs may be crap, but I am sure they are better than some of the stuff I hear these days!

[Dave Moore]

Has it got soul ?

Is it soul?

Two different questions,

an awful lot of US output might not be what perhaps most people on here will call 'soul' and without wishing to open a further 'house music' debate much of the US House I hear HAS GOT SOUL, more so than a lot of the acts that might be classed as Soul !

Jocko is correct (except is 2008 Jock) times move on and why would a teenager living in New Jersey not want to make contemporary sounds ?

cheers

Then why can't they sell it? That's really the crux of my initial post. It simply doesn't sell/chart and that's what my question was based upon. No-one has said that there's no soul left in US Black music. I don't know how people can interpret what's been discussed here as having anything to do with whether House music is soul or not. Bugger off and start your own thread. My observation was geared on the fact that the current US music buying fan seem to prefer the pastiche of the European's style as opposed to creating their own. Unusual in an industry that relishes copying the lastest fad as quickly as possible for a fast $$.

.

[Dave Moore]

Well, I am trying to do my bit, and it is not simple. I write songs that will never see the light of day unless I do it myself...and I am hopefully next month in Detroit. My songs may be crap, but I am sure they are better than some of the stuff I hear these days!

Carl,

Your songs are not crap.

Keep at it my friend. If it was easy......everyone would be doin' it. Good luck in DTown and ENJOY the process Mate. Looking forward to hearing it all.

[Guest gordon russell]

A lot of the american chart type r&b/soul that we hear ....is what I call diet soul.Don't need to hear stuff that we hear in this country at nighters ect........but most of what I see,the artists all look like x-factor manufactured crap. Must be some wicked soul singers,singing some great stuff,just ain't seen it yet......the yanks seem to have a differant take on it anyway,look at all the sixties and seventies stuff they just dismissed.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Thanks Dave. That's appreciated. By the way, I was on the Hammersmith and City tube line last Friday reading your last 'There's that beat' and I could see eyes trying to work out what I was reading! It was quite funny...you never see soul magazines on the London underground!

Talking of which...are there any music legal people on soul-source or recommendations? I may need some help! And...if anybody has any ideas how to exploit the tracks when complete, feel free to let me know. The plan is to do this all above board and pay residuals to the co producer, musicians and singers...just like it should. So any sales I may get, will be ultimately get revenue back into the business Stateside.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Paul Mooney - Your comments appreciated as always.

[Neiljon31]

Then why can't they sell it? That's really the crux of my initial post. It simply doesn't sell/chart and that's what my question was based upon. No-one has said that there's no soul left in US Black music. I don't know how people can interpret what's been discussed here as having anything to do with whether House music is soul or not. Bugger off and start your own thread. My observation was geared on the fact that the current US music buying fan seem to prefer the pastiche of the European's style as opposed to creating their own. Unusual in an industry that relishes copying the lastest fad as quickly as possible for a fast $$.

.

Just before I bugger off ...I'm not sure why it doesnt sell, its criminal really.. be it house, funk, roots, soul, infact anything that has balls and did not need Simon Cowell to rubber stamp it.

I can get into grumpy cynical sod mode and blame it an homogenised world that is slowly eroding away and semblance of original, creative spirit that we ever had and turning young people into nothing more than little machines designed to lap up what the corporations feed/sell them. Then bemoan the fact there are no young youth cults anymore and 'they' all look alike and where have all the punks gone where are the rude boys where are the mods who are the soul boys. BUT I hate doing that so I force myself to be positive and go search out the good stuff and speak to my nephew who is 23 (or so) and he hates all the corporate crap too and so do lots of younger people and that pleases me...

but back to the point..I was not interpreting the original post as 'has house music got soul' debate but as Jocko said it is contemporary US music we are talking about, and maybe predominantly Black US music . I think Barry recently started a thread on it.

As for why its not selling, I don't know (except for my rant). Its a real shame as Dancetracks and Vinylmania, two good independent black music suppliers/stores record stores in NY, have both recently closed down and that really really saddens me.

Not having a go by mentioning the H word, just thought it slightly relevant sorry if off key

Cheers

[Eddie Hubbard]

Hello Dave , Lee Fields is a label mate of Sharon Jones at Dap tone , still turning out great traditional Soul in the Deep Soul / gritty style .Other superb artists to my ears are Ann Nesby , Jaheim , and Angie Stone , maybe not recorded in the old style , but really Soulful to my ears .Try listening to Mick O' Donnell's " Soul Discovery " show on 209radio in Cambridge every fortnight on a sunday 12 pm - 3pm or go to the archive and pick it up anytime , for more examples of great Soul music coming out of USA .I've got to say I think we're going through a golden period for great new independant Soul music on CD , and of course labels like Paul Mooney's Soulscape records are doing the business as well with some fine archive releases .Best Wishes ,Eddie

[Guest andyrattigan]

Joss Stone is atrocious, I find her voice and singing style quite contrived and she butchered the backing track from "Am I the same girl."

There mightn't be any 6ts style american soul being produced but there are some great Modern Soul artists out there in the US. Ledisi and Rahsann Patterson spring to mind. Some Soulful House is quite good as well particularly MAW and some cuts from Kerri Chandler, Dennis Ferrer and the label Large.

[Guest Paul]

Hello Andy,

I must admit I also think Joss Stone sounds a bit contrived in comparison to Sharon Jones, Eli Reed, Duffy, Amy, Adele and others who have a more natural (or convincing) feel - regardless of the type of music you might classify them as. To me the feel or "spirit" is just as important as the material. If it sounds contrived I don't usually like it, no matter how talented they are.

I've been into house / garage since the beginning and I do think it has reached a peak as far as innovation goes. And it's interesting to note that dance music isn't selling so well these days; many labels and stores are having problems.

As for soul music, there is always something special out there (and Eddie gave some good examples) but I really think most of the good stuff is lost in a sea of mediocrity. And that's exactly what started to happen with dance music.

I've no doubt some of the good stuff which is in danger of being lost will be "discovered" one day but that won't help artists / writers / musicians / record companies / publishers who need to recoup on costs today so they can make another album tomorrow. I think it will be too late.

The only way we can really help is to brave and honest enough to tell artists when their material is weak or when their sound / style is too cliched or sub standard. Of course that's not an easy thing to do but pretending otherwise is not really helping anyone.

Some indie labels should focus on trying to make one really good album rather than ten bad albums.

Best regards,

Paul

[Souljazera]

....what's with Amp Fiddler? Or is he not considered to be "traditional"?

done some great soul stuff but he may have too much drum production for this forum malayka....the kick drum is a dirty word in 60;s circles !!! personally i love some of his stuff...good live too we had him play at electric chair quite a few times..

[Souljazera]

the problem with free downloads is a very serious one given that most young 14-21 year olds dont pay for music and are used to a culture of swap/share for free...we old moaners actually pay for stuff..dont we???

maybe the mass acceptance of white artists may cause other listeners to search out other black music related sounds..the way forward seems to be with adverts that certainly what dance music did...reaches a mass audience and quickly...

[Guest nusha]

how did Chingy end up on that list?

Because Hes solid,Dead Good and talented.Hes the embodiment of southern swamp blues and Funk.Right Thur and dem Jeans are black music classics.His music is quirky.Better than the humourless Amy Whiner and phony Stone.

[Guest nusha]

Interesting point, Dave.

There's always something good out there - such as Eli Reed, Sharon Jones etc - but the vast majority of American acts are sub standard, contrived or cliched.

Meanwhile, British acts such as Adele, Duffy and Amy Winehouse have captured a raw feel which is sadly lacking in American music.

Not soul music, perhaps, but the spirit is there.

Best regards,

Paul

A Lot Of People thought THE TEMPTATIONS and THE FOUR TOPS were formulaic and of a production line.Hence sub standard.Time proved them to be wrong.

[Guest Paul]

A Lot Of People thought THE TEMPTATIONS and THE FOUR TOPS were formulaic and of a production line.Hence sub standard.Time proved them to be wrong.

Hello,

I don't think being formularized makes something sub-standard. Much of the output of the Four Tops and the Temptations was very formularized but it was of a high standard and I never got tired of it.

The same applies to most Motown, Stax, Hi, Fame, Goldwax, Philadelphia International, etc. They had formulas but it was usually high standard - both artistically and technically.

More importantly, their material was usually very good - excellent by today's standards - and that's what is sorely missed today.

Is there anyone out there today who can really compare with writers such as Holland/Dozier/Holland, Hayes/Porter, Penn/Oldham, Banks/Hampton, Gamble/Huff etc?

I don't think so.

Paul

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hello,

I don't think being formularized makes something sub-standard. Much of the output of the Four Tops and the Temptations was very formularized but it was of a high standard and I never got tired of it.

The same applies to most Motown, Stax, Hi, Fame, Goldwax, Philadelphia International, etc. They had formulas but it was usually high standard - both artistically and technically.

More importantly, their material was usually very good - excellent by today's standards - and that's what is sorely missed today.

Is there anyone out there today who can really compare with writers such as Holland/Dozier/Holland, Hayes/Porter, Penn/Oldham, Banks/Hampton, Gamble/Huff etc?

I don't think so.

Paul

Just caught this thread and couldn't agree more! The standard of songwriting and production just ain't wot it used to be.

It comes to something when the best recorded song I heard last year was Amy's "Tears Dry On Their Own" (co-incidentally an Ashford/Simpson co-write LOL) rather than the plethora of new releases I get every week!

I'm currently compiling a large amount of albums covering the 60's-80's and the embarassment of riches is truly unbelievable. We never had it so good and we should be thankful it happened in our lifetime.

Best,

Ian D