Ste Henderson Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 Anybody any info on this re-issue or boot? its very pale green label with darker green lettering, also 68269H1/A stamped not scratched in the run out Thanks in advance Steve
Souljazera Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) cheeky number..... sells well too...a 10.00 boot for anything up to 80.00 apparently Edited February 19, 2008 by souljazera
SteveM Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 cheeky number..... sells well too...a 10.00 boot for anything up to 80.00 apparently Shouldn't that be gold with black lettering ? Is the scan iffy ?
Ste Henderson Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 Shouldn't that be gold with black lettering ? Is the scan iffy ? Manships boot guide says it has been reissued in the 70s buff/gold label with black lettering I didnt know it had been booted? perhaps JM could clear this one up as this is not listed in any of his guides? and if it is a bootleg why should it have a stamped matrix number? also the colouring from the scan is exact.
Hitsville Chalky Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 Manships boot guide says it has been reissued in the 70s buff/gold label with black lettering I didnt know it had been booted? perhaps JM could clear this one up as this is not listed in any of his guides? and if it is a bootleg why should it have a stamped matrix number? also the colouring from the scan is exact. Been told the gold one is a legit issue and not a boot !
Ste Henderson Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 Whats on the flip? M. The flip is " With A Lonely Heart" also stamped 68269H2/A Steve
SteveM Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 Been told the gold one is a legit issue and not a boot ! It is. I think the scan is of that one, but just looks greeny. Is that your scan Steve or one of a website ?
Ste Henderson Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 It is. I think the scan is of that one, but just looks greeny. Is that your scan Steve or one of a website ? Its my scan and very accurate light geen label/ dark green lettering. Also scan of the matrix number
Hitsville Chalky Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 It is. I think the scan is of that one, but just looks greeny. Is that your scan Steve or one of a website ? I think the label scan showing above is the new Boot that's been going around for the past few months which are on Ebay all the time. From Johns site - " Second press from many years ago, the first press is BIG $$$. This release is now becoming difficult to find. Check the soundbite: where could you buy such a great tune remembering the flip side is rated by many as EVEN BETTER! A dbl sider tough to equal. " So is the gold one a Boot or Legit Issue ?
Sebastian Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) Anybody any info on this re-issue or boot? The label looks exactly like the one on the "gold label with dark brown/black lettering" (but much paler!) which was pressed from the same stampers as the original 60s release, hence having superb sound quality and often being refered to as a legit 2nd issue. It might very well BE legit, but it's still a second issue and should be of marginal interest to anyone who collects first issue 45s in my opinion. The pale green one might be a bootleg made from the "gold label" reissue? Here's the gold label reissue, it would really surprise me if it is from the 70s: Edited February 19, 2008 by Sebastian
SteveM Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 I think the label scan showing above is the new Boot that's been going around for the past few months which are on Ebay all the time. From Johns site - " Second press from many years ago, the first press is BIG $$$. This release is now becoming difficult to find. Check the soundbite: where could you buy such a great tune remembering the flip side is rated by many as EVEN BETTER! A dbl sider tough to equal. " So is the gold one a Boot or Legit Issue ? Gold one is a legit (re )issue. Didn't realise it had been come out on a green label. How long ago was that ?
Soul-slider Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 I think the label scan showing above is the new Boot that's been going around for the past few months which are on Ebay all the time. From Johns site - " Second press from many years ago, the first press is BIG $$$. This release is now becoming difficult to find. Check the soundbite: where could you buy such a great tune remembering the flip side is rated by many as EVEN BETTER! A dbl sider tough to equal. " So is the gold one a Boot or Legit Issue ? The Gold label, black lettering second issue from the 70's is a quality 45. The one in the scan is indeed the NEWER boot-leg green lettering. Basically it's a boot of a re-issue!!
pikeys dog Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 I.M.O. It's a boot thats been pressed in the UK... note the raised vinyl around the edge of the label.... usually ridged (anti slip) on UK copies but some Jay Boy issues are the same. Machine Etched matrix number (rather than stamped) - Just like the Jay Boy issues and very early boots of the 70s...
Dave Thorley Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 The label looks exactly like the one on the "gold label with dark brown/black lettering" (but much paler!) which was pressed from the same stampers as the original 60s release, hence having superb sound quality and often being refered to as a legit 2nd issue. It might very well BE legit, but it's still a second issue and should be of marginal interest to anyone who collects first issue 45s in my opinion. The pale green one might be a bootleg made from the "gold label" reissue? Here's the gold label reissue, it would really surprise me if it is from the 70s: The Gold one was a legal re-issue by the guys in the group in agreement with Popcorn Wylie, from which they got the proceeds. This recent one is a bootleg and the guys in the group are getting nothing from it's issue.
Guest Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) Hitsville Chalky said: Been told the gold one is a legit issue and not a boot ! The Gold one is called a re-issue but was only issued for demand on the Northern Soul scene. It is not a proper USA issue, for the USA record buying public. I don't think specialist records re-made legally only for the Northern Soul scene, count as proper USA issues, so they are not re-issues, just remakes. The gold copies are sold as some kind of semi-original by dealers. They charge a lot more for it than normal boots/re-issues, which I have always thought was a Rip-Off! Edited February 23, 2016 by Guest
Guest Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 The Gold one is called a re-issue but was only issued for demand on the Northern Soul scene, How do you know that? The re-issue was mid / late 70s according to C Morer - When was this tune broken on the Scene? Just a question ?
Guest Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 How do you know that? The re-issue was mid / late 70s according to C Morer - When was this tune broken on the Scene? Just a question ? I bought the Green label original for £5 in 1980. I never saw the Gold label copies till the 90's when it was a Monster!
Guest Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) I bought the Green label original for £5 in 1980. I never saw the Gold label copies till the 90's when it was a Monster! Yeah, that's when I became aware of it. When it was released on the "Essential Detroit LP" about 92 it was already MASSIVE! But Craig Moerer states a mid 70s (78) release of the gold label (from the original plates) which would suggest that the 2nd issue had little or nothing to do with the "Soul Scene" ???? Also, I personally do not think that this 70s second legit release of the 45 has had any negitive impact on the value of the first 60s release. In fact It seems that it has had the opposite effect. Proppelled into "Northern Soul" folklore by these very threads! .......... "the new bootleg of the second issue" (would you believe that)......................just added more strangeness to the Legend ! Edited February 19, 2008 by mossy
Dave Thorley Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 This was a Re-issue and was sold in the US. The record had been indemand with US soul harmony collectors long before it was indemand over here. Many of the 60's/70's Doo Wop collectors over there started collecting soul harmony records as a natural progression. Guys like Jeff Beckman had major collection with many of the rarest northern tunes in, way back then and many the UK still hadn't discovered. It always amazes me that people over here think we discovered everything first. Although they have a completely different scene over there, there have been many major collectors of rare soul in the states as long as there have been here. Infact many UK dealers as early as the 70's knew these guys and would visit them to find new tunes.
boba Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 This was a Re-issue and was sold in the US. The record had been indemand with US soul harmony collectors long before it was indemand over here. Many of the 60's/70's Doo Wop collectors over there started collecting soul harmony records as a natural progression. Guys like Jeff Beckman had major collection with many of the rarest northern tunes in, way back then and many the UK still hadn't discovered. It always amazes me that people over here think we discovered everything first. Although they have a completely different scene over there, there have been many major collectors of rare soul in the states as long as there have been here. Infact many UK dealers as early as the 70's knew these guys and would visit them to find new tunes. I was looking in someone's kreiter guide (I think that's what it was, it was a doowop price guide) and both this and the other four voices are both priced at $100. Now if I could just find a doowop collector with both the record and that guide.
Dave Thorley Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 I was looking in someone's kreiter guide (I think that's what it was, it was a doowop price guide) and both this and the other four voices are both priced at $100. Now if I could just find a doowop collector with both the record and that guide. Sadly they all seem to know what it's worth over here I first meet Jeff Beckman back in the early 80's and when I went to see him he reeled off just about every major dealer and collector in the UK. Many had beat a path to his door before me. But some years later he did sell me the first copy of Bad Weather Inc, to come over here. When it took off over here we went round about four collectors in New York and got a copy from each. Most of them had had it from almost a new release.
Guest Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 (edited) Correct me if i am wrong but it seems............ These two are the legit 1 and 2 releases. They share the same Identical press/stamp (nashville mains) and they are both made of vinyl - the only difference in between the two is the label! RIGHT! There were the ONLY 2 proper releases of this 45 by THE FOUR VOICES! The 2nd release had nothing to do with the northern soul scene ! The 3rd release (The bootleg) is everything you dont want to be part of ! Long live the 4 voices Edited February 20, 2008 by mossy
Guest Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 I was looking in someone's kreiter guide (I think that's what it was, it was a doowop price guide) and both this and the other four voices are both priced at $100. Now if I could just find a doowop collector with both the record and that guide. but that is what they will be worth soon
Ian Dewhirst Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 This was a Re-issue and was sold in the US. The record had been indemand with US soul harmony collectors long before it was indemand over here. Many of the 60's/70's Doo Wop collectors over there started collecting soul harmony records as a natural progression. Guys like Jeff Beckman had major collection with many of the rarest northern tunes in, way back then and many the UK still hadn't discovered. It always amazes me that people over here think we discovered everything first. Although they have a completely different scene over there, there have been many major collectors of rare soul in the states as long as there have been here. Infact many UK dealers as early as the 70's knew these guys and would visit them to find new tunes. I bumped into quite a few U.S. collectors in '76 who started with Doo-Wop and evolved into Group Harmony's and then Soul as a natural progression. I've long forgotten the names (other than the Val Shively) but there was one guy who lived in Long Beach called Darryl who had an amazing collection with records in there I've never seen since. Shame the bugger wouldn't let anything go LOL..... Ian D
Sean Hampsey Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 It always amazes me that people over here think we discovered everything first. Yeh, real wierd one that Dave. Like the guys who made the stuff said as they were leaving the studio... "It's a rap guys, good vocals Steve, ...hey, nice sax Mike... ...all we need now is some UK hotshot guy to discover the record in 20 odd years and we'll be made! Go stick em in the basement till they're ready for us!"
Guest Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 I bumped into quite a few U.S. collectors in '76 who started with Doo-Wop and evolved into Group Harmony's and then Soul as a natural progression. I've long forgotten the names (other than the Val Shively) but there was one guy who lived in Long Beach called Darryl who had an amazing collection with records in there I've never seen since. Shame the bugger wouldn't let anything go LOL..... Ian D Has Val still got his shop?
Sebastian Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) But Craig Moerer states a mid 70s (78) release of the gold label I doubt that. I would like to see another 45 from 1978 which has got that kind of computerized type-setting on the label, a beveled edge and transparent vinyl (when held in front of bright lighting). It looks MUCH more like the Glenda McLeod second issue on HGEI (from 1984/1985 or so). Unless I see 100% proof I will consider the gold label issue to be an 80s or 90s pressing. In any case it's a second issue. If legally done (which it obviously is) or not makes no difference, it's still not the original release. Edited February 20, 2008 by Sebastian
Tfk Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 Has Val still got his shop? Yes Val still has his shop,was with him in November last year,he still has plenty of great records in,there was a guy in the shop at the same time offering him his collection of records for sale,so it is always worth a visit when in Philadelphia,loads of 45s-picked up loads of goodies for myself,make sure you have arranged a visit before hand before heading up there " he is a very busy guy".... ktf-tfk
Prophonics 2029 Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) I remeber it being played in 79. In the 80ts it was still covered up as Luther Ingram and I thought the Nashville pressing plant closed down in the 70ts. Edited February 20, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
Sebastian Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 I remeber it being played in 79. In the 80ts it was still covered up as Luther Ingram and I thought the Nashville pressing plant closed down in the 70ts. As far as I know the gold label reissue was pressed from the same stampers, but not necessarily at the same pressing plant.
Dave Pinch Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 hi all sebastian, stardom,& prophonics i think are all correct on this matter. i ve had the four voices for years and always saw the odd green original . suddenly in 1997, bearing in mind that the green one was £400 by this time is when the gold ones popped up. they were all over the place and they were £150 and i`d never seen one b4. i think that when they were made although they are from the original plates complete with nashville stamp. but its on 90s plastic with computer type font.. the green typeface one must be brand new as ive not seen one yet dave
boba Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 hi all sebastian, stardom,& prophonics i think are all correct on this matter. i ve had the four voices for years and always saw the odd green original . suddenly in 1997, bearing in mind that the green one was £400 by this time is when the gold ones popped up. they were all over the place and they were £150 and i`d never seen one b4. i think that when they were made although they are from the original plates complete with nashville stamp. but its on 90s plastic with computer type font.. the green typeface one must be brand new as ive not seen one yet dave I always heard that Giattino did the gold issue, so i also assume not in the 70s. He at least had a lot of them. I also don't think it was for the doowop market just because the doowop book wouldn't value both records at the same price if one was so much more in demand it was repressed.
Sebastian Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 Dave Pinch and Boba, I completely agree with you.
Dave Thorley Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 Dave Pinch and Boba, I completely agree with you. Good. I'll see the lead singer in a few weeks I'll ask him the story.
Sebastian Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 I'll see the lead singer in a few weeks I'll ask him the story. Superb! Will be nice to know the definitive answer to this one.
Guest Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 Good. I'll see the lead singer in a few weeks I'll ask him the story. Have to agree with Dave Pinch, Boba, Sebastian on this. Never saw the gold copies till the 90's. From my experience of talking to the artists who sang the records they probably know the least of anyone, most of them can only remember the hits! That's not a criticism, they are artists/singers not fanatical collectors like me/us! Hope I'm wrong!
Dave Thorley Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 Have to agree with Dave Pinch, Boba, Sebastian on this. Never saw the gold copies till the 90's. From my experience of talking to the artists who sang the records they probably know the least of anyone, most of them can only remember the hits! That's not a criticism, they are artists/singers not fanatical collectors like me/us! Hope I'm wrong! But they had some involvement with the re-issue on this occassion
Prophonics 2029 Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) I have to agree with Dave, Pinch, Boba, Stardom and Sebastian this all sounds very exciting but is it possible that the record was cut from the same stampers as the original, am sure that the old green thing is a flat type disc so the new reissue are more record shaped and taper at the edge with no run in groove (well not enough to put the needle on the record and get back to your arm chair without missing half the record) unless someone has done a comparison and it is the same stamp. Edited February 20, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
boba Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 I have to agree with Dave, Pinch, Boba, Stardom and Sebastian this all sounds very exciting but is it possible that the record was cut from the same stampers as the original, am sure that the old green thing is a flat type disc so the new reissue are more record shaped and taper at the edge with no run in groove (well not enough to put the needle on the record and get back to your arm chair without missing half the record) unless someone has done a comparison and it is the same stamp. I personally don't know if it is the same stampers, as I don't have an original copy to tell. However, I think the actual vinyl can be shaped differently because it has a different composition (e.g. 80s vinyl having the wider 80s-ish edge) even if the same stampers were used. A good way to tell is to check if the runout markings are identical.
solidhit Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 I always heard that Giattino did the gold issue, so i also assume not in the 70s. He at least had a lot of them. I also don't think it was for the doowop market just because the doowop book wouldn't value both records at the same price if one was so much more in demand it was repressed. I first saw Giattino selling the gold copies when ebay was already well under way in the late 90s. The first ones I saw (and I actually bought one for $5.) was in the early to mid 90s from a guy name George Greco when he was still here in NJ. I really doubt that he would have bought them from Giattino and then re-sold them for $5 each. At the same time, Greco had original copies of things on Chex and Volume out of Detroit, so I suspect that the original label owner pressed them up because people like George Greco asked for them (it was on my wants list which I gave him in the late 80s). I suspect that Giattino either bought them from Greco or from the original label owner.
Prophonics 2029 Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 (edited) I just checked out that matrix on the FV light green, I have seen a boot on Golden Eye with the same type number as this??. Edited February 21, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
Guest Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) I personally don't know if it is the same stampers, as I don't have an original copy to tell. However, I think the actual vinyl can be shaped differently because it has a different composition (e.g. 80s vinyl having the wider 80s-ish edge) even if the same stampers were used. A good way to tell is to check if the runout markings are identical. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the stampers press molten vinyl beads together to form the record? So if the original stampers are used, then you get exactley the same shape of label area, run in/out space and any other matrix / writing or marks ! The only difference would be in the / density / quality of the vinyl used ...... wouldn't it ? Why would the record look any different if it is pressed from the original stampers - weather it is pressed in the 60s 70s 80s 0r 90s ???? And if you check out another "Nashville Mains" 45, say Emmanuel Laskey on Thelma, you will see exactly the same bevelled shape on the label area !!!! The thing I would find intresting to know is when was this second issue pressed ! Like I mentioned Craig Moerer reckons it was done in the 70s, As for computerised graphix? Check out any pop single from the 70s - Most have better type setting than the Four Voices 45 ! Check this video out "> Edited February 22, 2008 by mossy
Guest Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) In any case it's a second issue. If legally done (which it obviously is) or not makes no difference, it's still not the original release. Edited February 22, 2008 by mossy
Quinvy Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 I see he's got another copy up on ebay........
Prophonics 2029 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the stampers press molten vinyl beads together to form the record? You are not wrong its pellets and its a gentle squeezing process, stampers come together pellets are heated and pumped in then it splits apart, trimmed up and labelled. So it should be an idetical twin to the original so if they used say the master tapes then that's a different thing all together. I have a Freddie Williams on Hollywood and its as flat as a pancake no dip after the runin but the matrix stamp looks the same. Funny cause it says 95 on the disc. Edited February 22, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
Guest Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 (edited) Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the stampers press molten vinyl beads together to form the record? You are not wrong it pellets and its a gentle squeezing process, stampers come together pellets are hearted and pumped init the splits an is trimmed and labelled. So it should be an idetical twin to the original so if they used say the master tapes then that's a different thing all together. Cool Ive posted the video up on an earlier post, showing the stampers doing their job! Anorack Heaven ps. are you on about the matrix stamp on the boot or the second issue, Its the second issue that has the nashville mains stamp not the boot ! Edited February 22, 2008 by mossy
Prophonics 2029 Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Err both really, the New Boot has the same type numbers as the Golden Eye Boot and The Nashville is the same type of stamp as my Freddie William's hope that is clear.
boba Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 You are not wrong it pellets and its a gentle squeezing process, stampers come together pellets are hearted and pumped init the splits an is trimmed and labelled. So it should be an idetical twin to the original so if they used say the master tapes then that's a different thing all together. I wasn't suggesting the grooves were different, I was suggesting that the outer edge and thickness and feel of the vinyl might be different.
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