Record Sales?

[Harry Crosby]

Was out last weekend & got talkig to a mate who`s been importing & selling for many years, he was telling me that record sales had slowed right down to the point that a few dealers in the usa and here had decided to call it a day, has anyone else experienced this? just wondered what your views were on this

[Pete S]

Was out last weekend & got talkig to a mate who`s been importing & selling for many years, he was telling me that record sales had slowed right down to the point that a few dealers in the usa and here had decided to call it a day, has anyone else experienced this? just wondered what your views were on this

Been like this for 2 years now mate...

[soulvillemartin]

Was out last weekend & got talkig to a mate who`s been importing & selling for many years, he was telling me that record sales had slowed right down to the point that a few dealers in the usa and here had decided to call it a day, has anyone else experienced this? just wondered what your views were on this

Would think that the internet and sites like Ebay has made it increasingly harder for sellers as there is less need for a "middleman".

[Benelew]

Was out last weekend & got talkig to a mate who`s been importing & selling for many years, he was telling me that record sales had slowed right down to the point that a few dealers in the usa and here had decided to call it a day, has anyone else experienced this? just wondered what your views were on this

Harry... how the hell are you? Yeah, good topic and probably due another airing. I'm sure you'll stimulate some interesting views on this one. Here's my take: I don't consider myself a dealer but I've been importing in bulk from a small number of US sources for a number of years (not just Soul - Doo Wop, Garage, Rockabilly etc) and doing the Ebay thing - you know, small time - as a hobby. Apart from the odd item, I don't really get any big value stuff any more and rely on selling volumes of small value. My experience tells me not to put much store in price guides but to emphasise the point, you only have to look at the number of so called £30-£50 Manship guide items going on Ebay for peanuts. 70s - you can't give it away! I recently listed a lot of four 60s (admittedly not well known) 45s all in EX condition that added up to about £180 in Manships. The winner got all four for £17.50! Although I expect the bigger "trophy" items to hold their price for some time yet, I'm bemused when I see the (high) prices some dealers are asking on set sale lists - they're having a laugh! - I know if I'm patient I'll get one of those off Ebay for two thirds that price within a short time. Any lowering of prices or slowing down in sales was always inevitable due to a number of factors: 1) The expansion of the rare soul collectors market to include more "casual" buyers would always contract eventually and will leave the hard core collectors all chasing the same few really rare records, 2) The market's flooded, certainly at the lower end, with more records than potential buyers - sure, me and lots like me and the Internet have contributed to that, 3) The economy is slowing down - less cash for luxuries, more caution. I'm sure there are a few more reasons.

As there are other calls on my hard-earned cash (Mortgage, Missus & Teenager) my hobby (collecting and selling) has to be self-supporting - I'll keep selling as long as I make enough money to pay for the stuff I put in my collection, but I'm not sure for how long that's gonna be.

Keep smiling!

Jorge

[Harry Crosby]

Harry... how the hell are you? Yeah, good topic and probably due another airing. I'm sure you'll stimulate some interesting views on this one. Here's my take: I don't consider myself a dealer but I've been importing in bulk from a small number of US sources for a number of years (not just Soul - Doo Wop, Garage, Rockabilly etc) and doing the Ebay thing - you know, small time - as a hobby. Apart from the odd item, I don't really get any big value stuff any more and rely on selling volumes of small value. My experience tells me not to put much store in price guides but to emphasise the point, you only have to look at the number of so called £30-£50 Manship guide items going on Ebay for peanuts. 70s - you can't give it away! I recently listed a lot of four 60s (admittedly not well known) 45s all in EX condition that added up to about £180 in Manships. The winner got all four for £17.50! Although I expect the bigger "trophy" items to hold their price for some time yet, I'm bemused when I see the (high) prices some dealers are asking on set sale lists - they're having a laugh! - I know if I'm patient I'll get one of those off Ebay for two thirds that price within a short time. Any lowering of prices or slowing down in sales was always inevitable due to a number of factors: 1) The expansion of the rare soul collectors market to include more "casual" buyers would always contract eventually and will leave the hard core collectors all chasing the same few really rare records, 2) The market's flooded, certainly at the lower end, with more records than potential buyers - sure, me and lots like me and the Internet have contributed to that, 3) The economy is slowing down - less cash for luxuries, more caution. I'm sure there are a few more reasons.

As there are other calls on my hard-earned cash (Mortgage, Missus & Teenager) my hobby (collecting and selling) has to be self-supporting - I'll keep selling as long as I make enough money to pay for the stuff I put in my collection, but I'm not sure for how long that's gonna be.

Keep smiling!

Jorge

Yes very intresting jorge, and of course i see your point, it just seems some auction sites seem to be realising very hefty prices still even on what most people would consider lower priced items, i suppose it has to come to an end what with the availability through technology and so on, just didn`t realise the market had slowed, maybe because i buy regularly still ive never noticed it myself

[Guest Matt Male]

In any other field this might seem like a buyer's market and buyers like me should be rubbing their hands at the new low prices. But as you say it doesn't equal good news for buyers like me who only use the internet and UK dealers and don't spend months in the US sourcing new stuff. I might be wrong (i often am) but there seems to be less decent stuff around now and rather than snapping up piles of stuff on the cheap we're still paying similar prices because of the loss of dealer competition. If you get what i mean. So not good news for buyers either.

Or maybe the loss of buyers has effected the dealers which in turn effects buyers. Kind of chicken and egg situation

[Prophonics 2029]

Was out last weekend & got talkig to a mate who`s been importing & selling for many years, he was telling me that record sales had slowed right down to the point that a few dealers in the usa and here had decided to call it a day, has anyone else experienced this? just wondered what your views were on this

Is this in response to soul sales or to general record sales, since downloads have become more of the norm even CD sales are down.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think you may be very wrong there Matt. I too only use internet/Ebay and the odd 45 from other dealers and you can pick up decent 45s for 10% of supposed guide value. For me there are so many 45s available cheap that I end up spending loads anyway. As Jorge said if Im having a bad day I might have to pay 75% of the guide value. And I am talking Ex to M condition too.

I am though just a Northern collector so if I like it I buy it. Im not chasing Wade Flemmons, Darrow Fletcher, Detroit Soul etc or established mega-rarities so there's not much competition.

ROD

[Garethx]

Unless you're after approximately three hundred over-exposed titles these are fantastic times to be a soul collector. The key to it all is to be adventurous. Little-known titles are out there for relative peanuts if you're prepared to take a chance. Yes, a lot will turn out to be mediocre at best, but the thrill of finding something good, unusual and under-exposed makes up for that. Ebay is a fantastic tool unless you happen to be after a few classic oldies or current 'hot-box' items.

[Guest Matt Male]

I told you i was wrong...

[Mark Bicknell]

Like Rod I tend to chase the little bit's and bob's rather than the big ticket items these day's, recently I've added some very tasty 45's to my DJ boxes including The Emotions - 'I'll Love You But I'll Leave You' on Twin Stacks, the hard to find Fabulous Apollos third record on Valtone (stunning 45) 'What's Good To You' Valtone 107 which I knew about but had never heard so I took a chance and a punt via Ebay and what a result, there are loads of quality records out there to be had at fair prices, been chasing an original of The Casanova Two - We Got To Keep On - Early Bird for some time with no success then like the 36A bus two turned up on Ebay at the same time, I got a beautiful condition stocker at what I thought was a fair price less than the book price so all in all very pleased, I'm having ton's of fun selling a few bit's buying a few on Ebay, the pound is really good against the dollar which helps and the vast amount of tunes on offer it's certainly a buyers market unless you have the big ticket name your price type records for sale...great fun, loving it right now.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Chris Anderton]

I have been dealing in records for almost 4 years now and looking back to my early records people often bought more than one record, sometimes 4 or 5 at a time. Now most buyers from my list only buy one record. I put this down mainly to the economic climate, rather than buy a few things they like people will buy one record they are really looking for.

There is not mush of a collectors scene for any kind of music left in the US, with the exception of the Beatles. Many a US dealer has told me that its only the search for Northern soul that keeps the record shows alive.

Personally, I sell more records now than ever before.

Chris

[paultp]

I haven't been collecting very long, probably less than 10 years now and my knowledge base is also only that old. Initially I bought off UK dealers, then looked on the internet ... WOW!

In the late nineties you could get records for next to nothing on the net and each week another couple of US shops would list their inventory causing a flurry of activity. Anyone remember Ted's record room?

I remember regularly buying lots of "10 Soul records" for 5 dollars off ebay, there was always one or two good ones in there.

By the early noughties my knowledge had grown a bit and I found I could buy stuff off US ebay and sell it either out at gigs or on UK ebay for up to twice the amount I'd bought it for, all proceeds funding my play box.

Over the last few years, both US record sellers and the UK buying market have become much more internet savvy with the result that US sellers research their records more and the initial prices are higher (at least $9.99 and usually $24.99) and they also know what top price records are worth. The UK buyers are buying from the US market directly so perceived UK prices are no longer relevant. Everyone now knows that records that were commonly 30-40 quid can be bought for 15 including postage on US ebay.

Over the last couple of years the preference for big ticket records to DJ with has meant fewer people buy cheap records in the UK, so big ticket items hold or increase their value whereas cheap records have got cheaper. The result is that there isn't a profit to be made on cheap records, also rare records by definition are hard to find and you compete with people willing to pay top price to buy them - so again little profit to be had.

The result of all this is that the market is constricting; casual buyers of cheap records are no longer buying, people like me who buy and sell to fund their collection are thus finding it more difficult so are not buying as much, dealers are competing directly with their market to purchase records so profits reduce.

Just like the banking credit crunch - the available supply of money to the market is reducing.

New money is needed from new markets, perhaps someone could introduce the Chinese to Northern Soul? Just don't tell them about the good stuff

Edit:

This illustrates my point:

https://cgi.ebay.com/Northern-Soul-THE-SUGA...1QQcmdZViewItem

I bought one of these last year and it took me 6 months to get my money back .... at 50 quid! (and mine was mint)

Edited February 20, 2008 by paultp

[Our Kid]

One point that hasn't been made here is the effect on sales due to DJ policy.

If the same old tunes keep getting played fewer will want to look for the gems lying out there.

Good ol' Dave Evison - regularly he would dust off a forgotten gem and stick with it 'til it got through to the crowd (sometimes too much!!).

So come on DJ's you've got your part to play - how did we get to hear all the tunes we know if they weren't spun out over the years for us.

Any scene thrives on refreshment - no new life = no one chasing that 'new' sound they've heard through the dealers.

Some of the greatest tunes weren't a quick fix on the dancefloor - so if people could do it then no reason why you can't show more perseverance and less ego now.

Paul

[Pete S]

John Manships price guide killed off a lot of dealers and part time sellers and still continues to do so. What a great idea, tell everyone in the States that their records are worth hundreds of dollars.

[Jordirip]

One point that hasn't been made here is the effect on sales due to DJ policy.

If the same old tunes keep getting played fewer will want to look for the gems lying out there.

Good ol' Dave Evison - regularly he would dust off a forgotten gem and stick with it 'til it got through to the crowd (sometimes too much!!).

So come on DJ's you've got your part to play - how did we get to hear all the tunes we know if they weren't spun out over the years for us.

Any scene thrives on refreshment - no new life = no one chasing that 'new' sound they've heard through the dealers.

Some of the greatest tunes weren't a quick fix on the dancefloor - so if people could do it then no reason why you can't show more perseverance and less ego now.

Paul

Good point, well made, and it links in with a lot of debates on here about what DJ's play and what audiences want. Thing is, I don't think too many punters actually buy records any more.

Jordi

Jordi

[Harry Crosby]

John Manships price guide killed off a lot of dealers and part time sellers and still continues to do so. What a great idea, tell everyone in the States that their records are worth hundreds of dollars.

This ones a classic pete, a lad i know decided to start buying n selling records so he went over a couple of times on his first trip he went into banana records [i think] in florida, the guy took all his details and told him if he left a wants list he`d look for his items n get back to him, so he promptly pulled out mr manships price guide n said any of those in there n left it with them needlesss to say he`s no longer in buisness

[boba]

I haven't been collecting very long, probably less than 10 years now and my knowledge base is also only that old. Initially I bought off UK dealers, then looked on the internet ... WOW!

In the late nineties you could get records for next to nothing on the net and each week another couple of US shops would list their inventory causing a flurry of activity. Anyone remember Ted's record room?

I remember regularly buying lots of "10 Soul records" for 5 dollars off ebay, there was always one or two good ones in there.

By the early noughties my knowledge had grown a bit and I found I could buy stuff off US ebay and sell it either out at gigs or on UK ebay for up to twice the amount I'd bought it for, all proceeds funding my play box.

Over the last few years, both US record sellers and the UK buying market have become much more internet savvy with the result that US sellers research their records more and the initial prices are higher (at least $9.99 and usually $24.99) and they also know what top price records are worth. The UK buyers are buying from the US market directly so perceived UK prices are no longer relevant. Everyone now knows that records that were commonly 30-40 quid can be bought for 15 including postage on US ebay.

Over the last couple of years the preference for big ticket records to DJ with has meant fewer people buy cheap records in the UK, so big ticket items hold or increase their value whereas cheap records have got cheaper. The result is that there isn't a profit to be made on cheap records, also rare records by definition are hard to find and you compete with people willing to pay top price to buy them - so again little profit to be had.

The result of all this is that the market is constricting; casual buyers of cheap records are no longer buying, people like me who buy and sell to fund their collection are thus finding it more difficult so are not buying as much, dealers are competing directly with their market to purchase records so profits reduce.

Just like the banking credit crunch - the available supply of money to the market is reducing.

New money is needed from new markets, perhaps someone could introduce the Chinese to Northern Soul? Just don't tell them about the good stuff

Edit:

This illustrates my point:

https://cgi.ebay.com/Northern-Soul-THE-SUGA...1QQcmdZViewItem

I bought one of these last year and it took me 6 months to get my money back .... at 50 quid! (and mine was mint)

The sugar lumps on uptown was always common and always went for like $10 on ebay. Then it appeared in a book and the rarest of the rare for expensive and all of a sudden that dictated a new price -- but it wasn't real. So that isn't the best example of what you are talking about I don't think. The group's other two records are even rare than that.

[paultp]

The sugar lumps on uptown was always common and always went for like $10 on ebay. Then it appeared in a book and the rarest of the rare for expensive and all of a sudden that dictated a new price -- but it wasn't real. So that isn't the best example of what you are talking about I don't think. The group's other two records are even rare than that.

It might not be the best but it illustrates the fact that US dealers ask top wack for a record because they now have some knowledge regarding what price records sell for in the UK.

Before this, as you say, the record would have listed for 10 dollars, I would have bid about $50-75 on the basis that I could have maybe sold it for at least 50 quid in the current climate. I might have got it, I might not. Unfortunately the start price is $225 or about 120 quid including postage so I'm not bidding at all cos unless I was really lucky I think it would take me years to sell it on.

It will be interesting to see if it sells cos to my mind this is the sort of record that is pretty unsaleable at the moment because it isn't 1) A northern classic 2) very expensive 3) Any good 4) In demand 5) On any name DJ play lists 6) Rare

This record has had about 2 surges in value over here in 30 years, during the most recent it listed for up to 150 quid. At the time I was pleased to get it for 50 but only got my money back on it in the end. Rarity doesn't matter to be honest, it is current availability that dictates the price of an in demand record (which this one isn't any more ). When it was in-demand it wasn't readily available over here.

It might be common in the states but it isn't/wasn't over here until more people started buying off the tinterweb.

If you have quantity at 10 dollars each I'll take them all.

[Benelew]

This ones a classic pete, a lad i know decided to start buying n selling records so he went over a couple of times on his first trip he went into banana records [i think] in florida, the guy took all his details and told him if he left a wants list he`d look for his items n get back to him, so he promptly pulled out mr manships price guide n said any of those in there n left it with them needlesss to say he`s no longer in buisness

Harry... we won't be seeing this lad on the The Apprentice then? Yeah lot's of Bananas' stories around. I had a day over there a few years's back while the missus went shopping elsewhere. Fortunately was before Manship's guides although the guy still had what was probably a US Goldmine guide. His daughter had just started cataloguing all his stuff which probably forms the basis of his internet site nowadays. Had most fun across the road in his "cheapies" warehouse but still managed to get a decent stash for about 250 bucks. Obviously Levine and Co had cleaned up there while I was still going to Sunday School. Needless to say my purchases were insignificant compared to what the missus spent in Florida Mall.

Jorge

[Soulof]

I have been dealing in records for almost 4 years now and looking back to my early records people often bought more than one record, sometimes 4 or 5 at a time. Now most buyers from my list only buy one record. I put this down mainly to the economic climate, rather than buy a few things they like people will buy one record they are really looking for.

There is not mush of a collectors scene for any kind of music left in the US, with the exception of the Beatles. Many a US dealer has told me that its only the search for Northern soul that keeps the record shows alive.

Personally, I sell more records now than ever before.

Chris

X Is it just me that feels that way ?? hasn´t buyers seems to got a bit fed up losing items or even look on ebay and started to buy more from record lists like yours Chris, or sellers on soul source and such ??

Edited February 21, 2008 by Soulof