John Manship Auction

[Steve G]

Can someone advise what prices did the following three settle for?

Paul Thompson

Bobby Kline

AL WIlliams

Three great records, I'd be interested to know what these made

Thanks....Steve

[Guest alison]

Can someone advise what prices did the following three settle for?

Paul Thompson

Bobby Kline

AL WIlliams

Three great records, I'd be interested to know what these made

Thanks....Steve

link

Al Williams was just under 2.5K when I checked in the dying seconds, BK was in the mid 900's, again wasn't final price, I got distracted

[Guest Jamie]

Al Williams was just under 2.5K when I checked in the dying seconds, BK was in the mid 900's, again wasn't final price, I got distracted 

link

What's the ratio on Manship I wonder? 1:3, 1:4?

That's probable/realistic current value against final sale price.

Yeah I know it's only worth what someone is willing to pay, but is it the only outlet for rare vinyl?

[Simon T]

Tolbert £2514

Al Williams £2466

Paul Thompson £713

Bobby Kline £901

Candy & Kisses UK £102

Barbara Mills £ £257

Glady Knight UK £ 208

Edwin Starr £208

[Steve G]

Tolbert £2514

Al Williams £2466

Paul Thompson £713

Bobby Kline £901

Candy & Kisses UK £102

Barbara Mills £ £257

Glady Knight UK £ 208

Edwin Starr £208

link

#

Thanks Hippo old man.

[Ady Potts]

Never thought i would see the day when a 'Queen of fools' would make more than a 'you're my mellow'. What is going on?

[Simon T]

Never thought i would see the day when a 'Queen of fools' would make more than a 'you're my mellow'. What is going on?

link

The run is probably bigger; it seems it's not what's in the grooves that count these days!

[Steve G]

The run is probably bigger; it seems it's not what's in the grooves that count these days!

link

I'd need convincing that it's ever been "what's in the grooves that count" as far as some people are concerned.

[Guest]

I'd need convincing that it's ever been "what's in the grooves that count" as far as some people are concerned. 

link

I agree, what is actually in the grooves is often not the most important factor to a lot of people it seems.

[Guest]

Can someone advise what prices did the following three settle for?

Paul Thompson

Bobby Kline

AL WIlliams

Three great records, I'd be interested to know what these made

Thanks....Steve

link

I still really like Al Williams even if it is totally played out. I consider the other two pretty good I guess, but at the same time I think these two are VERY overrated musically and needless to say very overpriced since none of them seem to be that rare.

[Guest]

I reckon these people who are buying at the top prices are in for a real shock in later years if the Rock'n'Roll collecting scene is anything to go by.

I predict in the next 10-15 years the market will be flooded by big collections and the market will once again be a buyers market. More copies of big tunes than customers willing to buy.

Do you agree?

Derek

[Guest]

I reckon these people who are buying at the top prices are in for a real shock in later years if the Rock'n'Roll collecting scene is anything to go by.

  I predict in the next 10-15 years the market will be flooded by big collections and the market will once again be a buyers market. More copies of  big tunes than customers willing to buy.

  Do you agree?

  Derek

link

This will definitely happen sooner or later, what else could happen? The vast majority of buyers and collectors are in the UK, and when they get older many will sell, nothing strange really. It can't last forever, nothing does.

[Mark Bicknell]

Totally right Blackwhite/Derek, many of us have been saying this for years and the day will come when we can all source the records we want at a reasonable realistic price, meantine we all have to chip away at it and collect within our means and not all get sucked into the big ticket game.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Steve G]

Totally right Blackwhite/Derek, many of us have been saying this for years and the day will come when we can all source the records we want at a reasonable realistic price, meantine we all have to chip away at it and collect within our means and not all get sucked into the big ticket game.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

link

I agree, especially when some of the big Johnnies "cash in" their pensions, and empty their record boxes (to a degree that may be happening already!).

Ironically I think certain "big ticket" items will hold their price - certainly for much longer - I am talking Lester Tipton / Al Williams / Billy Woods etc. because these are proven "desirables" and have more pedigree in "collector circles" (both sides of the Atlantic). And additionally to an extent these are "trophy" records in some people's minds (though they won't admit that!).

So whilst there remains a degree of "scoffing" at the high prices such articles are attracting at auction, it may well be that these are the better "investments", for those that look at records in such a light.

I think the mid price £100-£500 northern oldie is where we'll see the first area of "decline" in interest, and indeed I have read elsewhere some of the "pundits" at Prestatyn recently eluded to experiencing some "difficulty" in shifting such items.

[Guest]

I agree, especially when some of the big Johnnies "cash in" their pensions, and empty their record boxes (to a degree that may be happening already!).

Ironically I think certain "big ticket" items will hold their price - certainly for much longer - I am talking Lester Tipton / Al Williams / Billy Woods etc. because these are proven "desirables" and have more pedigree in "collector circles" (both sides of the Atlantic). And additionally to an extent these are "trophy" records in some people's minds (though they won't admit that!).

So whilst there remains a degree of "scoffing" at the high prices such articles are attracting at auction, it may well be that these are the better "investments", for those that look at records in such a light.

I think the mid price £100-£500 northern oldie is where we'll see the first area of "decline" in interest, and indeed I have read elsewhere some of the "pundits" at Prestatyn recently eluded to experiencing some "difficulty" in shifting such items.

link

I agree the genuinly rare items should hold their price but the artificially expensive (due to demand not rarity) items like ACE SPECTRUM , PIONEERS, BILL BUSH etc etc will collapse in price.

Derek

[Steve G]

I agree the genuinly rare items should hold their price but the artificially expensive (due to demand not rarity) items like  ACE SPECTRUM ,  PIONEERS, BILL BUSH  etc etc will collapse in price.

  Derek

link

Completely agree, I hadn't even considered those items, nor things like the Futures etc....all of which are distorted price wise as you say...

[Guest Jamie]

I agree the genuinly rare items should hold their price but the artificially expensive (due to demand not rarity) items like  ACE SPECTRUM ,  PIONEERS, BILL BUSH  etc etc will collapse in price.

  Derek

link

I might not know a right lot, but Pioneers?

UK demo only on Mercury and a few on Ice

Not saying it's the rarest item in the world, but rarer than Ace Spectrum easily, though not sure about Bill Bush.

You could have picked hundreds of records before Pioneers????

Jamie

Edited March 24, 2005 by Jamie

[Chalky]

I agree, especially when some of the big Johnnies "cash in" their pensions, and empty their record boxes (to a degree that may be happening already!).

Ironically I think certain "big ticket" items will hold their price - certainly for much longer - I am talking Lester Tipton / Al Williams / Billy Woods etc. because these are proven "desirables" and have more pedigree in "collector circles" (both sides of the Atlantic). And additionally to an extent these are "trophy" records in some people's minds (though they won't admit that!).

So whilst there remains a degree of "scoffing" at the high prices such articles are attracting at auction, it may well be that these are the better "investments", for those that look at records in such a light.

I think the mid price £100-£500 northern oldie is where we'll see the first area of "decline" in interest, and indeed I have read elsewhere some of the "pundits" at Prestatyn recently eluded to experiencing some "difficulty" in shifting such items.

link

But who are the big ticket items like Lester Tipton, Al Williams etc gonna be of interest to in 10 to 15 years time. The scene is slowly dying with not enough youngsters coming onto the scene to sustain it for a couple of decades IMO.

You only have to look round venues to see the average age, doesn't bode well for the future IMO. Same with the record bars, not many youngsters in them and one day all these 40 plus collectors, many older will all sell without (IMO) a market to sell too.

Of course I hope I'm completely wrong

Edited March 24, 2005 by chalky

[Guest Netspeaky]

But who are the big ticket items like Lester Tipton, Al Williams etc gonna be of interest to in 10 to 15 years time.  The scene is slowly dying with not enough youngsters coming onto the scene to sustain it for a couple of decades IMO. 

You only have to look round venues to see the average age, doesn't bode well for the future IMO.  Same with the record bars, not many youngsters in them and one day all these 40 plus collectors, many older will all sell without (IMO) a market to sell too.

Of course I hope I'm completely wrong 

link

Just a thought, consider that Northern Soul has always been driven by rarity, the day may past went even none-soul collectors move into the market place. I dare say there are already collectors out there who span numerous types of music collecting rare pieces. Remember the 45 is a piece of art and look what some pictures make at auction many years after the were originally created. Thare may be even another type of collector out there who may not like or even be interested in the history of the record other than it one of only 3 known copies. You can just imagine them showing their trophies to rich firends at some upper class dinner party. It's a game of chance, which many got wrong in the 80's.

[Mark Bicknell]

Should it not be driven by the music ?....lol funny old game, scary ain't it but fantastic fun. If non soul scene people get there hands on the authentic rare big ticket items for an investment thing then god help us all.

Regards - Mark Bicknell

[Steve G]

Should it not be driven by the music ?....lol funny old game, scary ain't it but fantastic fun. If non soul scene people get there hands on the authentic rare big ticket items for an investment thing then god help us all.

Regards - Mark Bicknell

link

Mark, I suspect this phenomenon has already started with some of the "Trophy" records. Without wishing to sound "Regionalist" I do not think that all of our friends in the USA who are buying these things are neccesarily into the music as far as I can make out. I exclude from that a number who obviously are....but I sense a number are purely "speculating" on an investment, and probably do the same with "rare" music of other genres.

It will be interesting though, and a number of very good points have been made on this thread already.

Frankly if I am 75 and my records are not worth much by then, what do I care, I can't take them with me, and will have had a lifetime's enjoyment out of them, and that's what really counts at the end of the day.

[Guest]

I might not know a right lot, but Pioneers?

UK demo only on Mercury and a few on Ice 

Not saying it's the rarest item in the world, but rarer than Ace Spectrum easily, though not sure about Bill Bush.

You could have picked hundreds of records before Pioneers????

Jamie

link

The Pioneers was issued on Uk Mercury i picked one up for a mate who wanted it. The guy in the shop said he'd sold 4 or 5 other copies in the previous few weeks all issues. It ain't rare it's around just the reggae crowd didn't rate it at the time.

Derek

[Guest]

Mark, I suspect this phenomenon has already started with some of the "Trophy" records. Without wishing to sound "Regionalist" I do not think that all of our friends in the USA who are buying these things are neccesarily into the music as far as I can make out. I exclude from that a number who obviously are....but I sense a number are purely  "speculating" on an investment, and probably do the same with "rare" music of other genres.

It will be interesting though, and a number of very good points have been made on this thread already.

Frankly if I am 75 and my records are not worth much by then, what do I care, I can't take them with me, and will have had a lifetime's enjoyment out of them, and that's what really counts at the end of the day.

link

The investment buyers are out there i was approached by a mate who is a Beatles dealer who had made a lot of money sourcing rare items for a couple of city types. They were looking to move into rare soul. An offer was made to me for my motown stuff ( a bloody good one at that!), but i declined to sell to them as they were probably tories

Derek

[Guest Jamie]

The Pioneers was issued on Uk Mercury i picked one up for a mate who wanted it.  The guy in the shop said he'd sold 4 or 5 other copies in the previous few weeks all issues. It  ain't rare it's around just the reggae crowd didn't rate it at the time.

Derek

link

Thanks for that bit of info Derek. I take it that was back in '77.

I wonder how many of those survived until today? Like you said, I couldn't see the Reggae crowd taking to it either, certainly not like most of the other Pioneers stuff.

Although my mate Rich has another 'soulful' Mercury Demo by them from about the same time which is half decent. Did they put out a 'soulful' album maybe? or were they just 'one-offs' so to speak??

Jamie

(Still can't put it in the Ace Spectrum bracket )

[Steve G]

Thanks for that bit of info Derek. I take it that was back in '77.

I wonder how many of those survived until today? Like you said, I couldn't see the Reggae crowd taking to it either, certainly not like most of the other Pioneers stuff.

Although my mate Rich has another 'soulful' Mercury Demo by them from about the same time which is half decent. Did they put out a 'soulful' album maybe? or were they just 'one-offs' so to speak??

Jamie

(Still can't put it in the Ace Spectrum bracket  )

link

They were quite popular at the time as a group, and had a quite sizeable "club hit" in contemporary soul clubs with things like "Broken man"....This one wasn't so popular, as it came later when tastes were changing, and presumably due to the totally "naff" lyrics.

I still maintain they are singing about something other than their "best mate", despite veherement "protestations" to the contrary from trusted friends such as Soul Sam and Nige Mayfield.

[Steve G]

The investment buyers are out there i was approached by a mate who is a Beatles dealer who had made a lot of money sourcing rare items for a couple of city types. They were looking to move into rare soul. An offer was made to me for my motown stuff ( a bloody good one at that!), but i declined to sell to them as they were probably tories 

  Derek

link

Interesting, and this confirms my suspecions; it shouldn't be forgotten however that there are of course a few "City types" out there who do actually collect soul music for what it is, rather than the "investment".

Not sure how they "vote" though - does anybody still bother with this quaint practice of "voting"?

Moving on....I am surprised that rare soul hasn't featured more on all of these "Lifestyle TV channels" with the likes of "Boot Fair trampledown", "David Dickinson" and the like telling us to look in "Granny's attic" for her old records - I am sure it will come when they get bored with Pottery and cheap art

[Guest Baz]

or when you retire you can pass them on to me so in 20 years time i can play them to a crowd of about ten people???

[Steve G]

or when you retire you can pass them on to me  so in 20 years time i can play them to a crowd of about ten people???

link

I actually think the "club" side will "peter out" ahead of the "collecting" side, aside from occasional weekender / convention type "do's".

[Guest Soultown andy]

There is a new version of aniques road show due to hit tv screens.Looking at 50 60 70s collectables,includeing VINYL.Lets see what there experts dig up.Kev Murphy had a rare record collector offer him 8 grand for his larry clinton issue,so it would seem there are more than us soulies in the frame now.

[Guest Baz]

There is a new version of aniques road show due to hit tv screens.Looking at 50 60 70s collectables,includeing VINYL.Lets see what there experts dig up.Kev Murphy had a rare record collector offer him 8 grand for his larry clinton issue,so it would seem there are more than us soulies in the frame now.

link

there must be a law set up to stop these kind of people getting there hands on this vinyl it will sit there doing nothing where as a true soul music fan would cherish and love whielst in his/her possesion if all the rarer iteams were to go to these people how would we get to hear them ??????

[Guest Baz]

There is a new version of aniques road show due to hit tv screens.Looking at 50 60 70s collectables,includeing VINYL.Lets see what there experts dig up.Kev Murphy had a rare record collector offer him 8 grand for his larry clinton issue,so it would seem there are more than us soulies in the frame now.

link

or could this be a reason why some records make silly money on ovenchips 'outsiders' bidding silly money because no one has met a 'soulie' yet to admit to paying them prices umm the plot thickens

[Steve G]

Kev Murphy had a rare record collector offer him 8 grand for his larry clinton issue,

link

OK, so it's confirmed then, we are not alone as we suspected; I expect to see some "Financial Futures" trading on the value of people's collections at this rate....

The new programme should be interesting if nothing else (and not just for the records), and I agree that we don't want our records "languishing" in picture frames in non soul collector circles; it does make for interesting times though.

I still think it's only the "Trophy" records that'll hold (or even increase) in value, and the rest will in time vanish into the "ether" value wise.

[Guest Baz]

i just hope that when the big ticket items are sold on they can be pased on in the soul circles and not to any average joe with 8 grand to offer after all retriving these items back could prove very tricky they could be sat up in lofts ect and i will never get a look in

[Sunnysoul]

Hey everyone !

There's loads of twenty and thirty something collectors outside the UK all around the world !!!

What does that say about the future ?

[Guest]

Hey everyone !

There's loads of twenty and thirty something collectors outside the UK all around the world !!!

What does that say about the future ?

link

There are other collectors in the world, like you say, but not enough to sustain the values when the UK scene goes down. The vast majority are in the UK, and I don't see how old soul could really become much more popular around the world, it would be great if it did, but I just don't think it will ever happen.

[Sweeney]

An interesting thread.

On one hand I'm slightly amused at the high prices that items sell for on Manship's auctions, but if I was using Manship to sell a big ticket item I'd be delighted to get the sort of prices you see realised, but that's market forces for you I suppose.

I personally believe that people on the Northern scene are only too happy to pay ridiculous prices for records - it's not the "average joe" responsible for the elevation of relatively easy records like Brown Sugar, Ace Spectrum, The Futures etc. it's people on the scene. "Outsiders" don't need to hype up record prices.

There's a real kudos attached to the "rare" record. People think it's big or clever to pay big money for 45s on the Northern Soul scene. People love to go and hear DJs with expensive records. Most of those DJs for one reason or another can afford to pay thousands for records, very few people are actually innovating, searching for, and/or popularising records, (Butch comes to mind as one of those people). This fact - allied with the advancing average age and burgeoning virtual scene are going to be eventually responsible for the death of the scene.

How many of the people coming into the scene in their twenties or so can afford to compete in financial terms when anything decent costs an arm and a leg? How many of the so-called super-rarities would even be played if they were a tenner? few, probably, but people kid themselves that they're worth the money, a sort of vinyl emperor's new clothes, if you like.

Do the esteemed members of this forum remember the "scandal" of the Four Vandals? How many "Superstar DJs" were happy to pay big money to own this "amazing rarity"? How many punters convinced themselves that they remembered it from The Mecca? How many cloth-eared fools couldn't tell it was a poorly executed fake? I laughed like a drain when I first saw a label scan - it was so obviously not a real record. Laughed even harder when I heard the record folk were creaming themselves over - let's not forget it used to fill dancefloors!

As for a "Law" to stop non-soul people spending ridiculous money on records - please! get a grip! If people want to spend hundreds or even thousands on average records I paid a couple of quid for, I - and I guess most people on this board would only be too delighted to sell.

An example - one of my own personal holy grails was a copy of Billy Hambric - This is My Prayer on Fury. A deep soul masterpiece. My brother bought one many moons ago, and I've been after it since. Many years of searching didn't manage to bring one out of the woodwork. Didn't see one until last week, when I bought it for the princely sum of a tenner.

I've seen more copies of the Del-Larks, Tolbert, Utopias (THIS is played as a Northern record for christ sakes!) for sale than that record. Go figure.

Let's concentrate on quality rather than rarity, people.

[Guest]

This has been the finest thread on Soul Source in ages, so many great points about the price of records and the future of collecting. Fascinated that "Non- Soul" types are looking at rare soul vinyl as a commodity, even though I loathe the suggestion, I'm afraid that the practice may be more common place than "I" originally thought. As for selling my own collection when I am old and wizened, Jesus, not a cats in hells chance. I'd rather get buried with the "fiendish hounds" than let someone with "Coin" get them the easy way. Good God I've scrimped and been brought to my knees chasing these wretched objects for a quarter of a century, and that's just me, I know many, many others with far more formidable collections and would like to believe they feel the same as me. Totally agree though that in the future when "Meltdown" approaches that I for one may be able to land a few "Holy Grails", and I could care less if the "Scene" is dead and buried, always been happy to listen at home alone..................

[Guest ShaneH]

looks like Brett has found the 'font' link.

Shane

[pikeys dog]

I have just sent Mr Manship a few items to auction, as I believe I'll get the best price for them that way.....

Had them in my sales box at Prestatyn without so much as a sniff, so anything they make will be just fine by me.

WOOF!

[Chalky]

Many records are indemand on other scenes for the flip's, in-demand deep, funk and doo-wop etc can often be found on the other side

[Guest ShaneH]

Many records are indemand on other scenes for the flip's, in-demand deep, funk and doo-wop etc can often be found on the other side 

link

there are also the label collectors where many styles are covered.

[Marc Forrest]

An interesting thread.

I've seen more copies of the Del-Larks, Tolbert, Utopias (THIS is played as a Northern record for christ sakes!)  for sale than that record. Go figure.

link

One reason for that could well be that many dealers wouldn`t care to list some un- or semiknown 10 to 20 UKP records as they assume there is no demand for them. There is a vast number of tunes that you indeed very rarely see up for sale anywhere. When they have become "envogue" you then suddenly seem to find them anywhere. Recent example springs to mind in the shape of Chyvonne Scott on Alto...I was after that for years, found one, played it out, years went by and the record has somehow become "indemand", sells now for 100 UKP and you can get it nearly everywhere.

Marc

[Guest]

looks like Brett has found the 'font' link.

Shane

link

your collar bone is mine tomorrow......

[Guest ShaneH]

your collar bone is mine tomorrow......

link

i will be ready for you. your crazy fonts dont frighten me!

Shane

[Steve G]

An interesting thread.

Do the esteemed members of this forum remember the "scandal" of the Four Vandals? How many "Superstar DJs" were happy to pay big money to own this "amazing rarity"? How many punters convinced themselves that they remembered it from The Mecca? How many cloth-eared fools couldn't tell it was a poorly executed fake? I laughed like a drain when I first saw a label scan - it was so obviously not a real record. Laughed even harder when I heard the record folk were creaming themselves over - let's not forget it used to fill dancefloors!

Let's concentrate on quality rather than rarity, people.

link

I think you've touched on another factor that hasn't helped the serious "vinyl head" in recent years, and may be a factor leading to fewer people wanting to part with their hard earned for "unknowns" - the proliferation of expensive "dodgy" 45's. Johnny Watson, 7 Wonders of the World, Vandals, Jeannie & Valaquons, David Rhodes, and a few records I've seen on E-bay recently that have enough gloss on the vinyl for the average male to safely use as a substiture for a shaving mirror without fear of "bladeslip".

I remember one collector showing me one of the aforementioned, which he'd just "shelled out" a relatively serious wedge for, and looking totally deflated when being told it wasn't "real". I think he pretty much gave up the ghost after that.