Credit Crunch/record Crunch When Will It End

[Guest moggy]

Now this post is not meant to scaremonger in anyway

But I am hoping for some honest opinions on where collectors see the collecting side of the scene going, lets be real, its never going to last forever, we have some young folk attending and maybe a younger generation abroad appreciating this scene called Northern but is it enough to sustain a healthy record buying market

Top tunes will for now ! have buyers wiling to shell out a couple of grand etc, but what happens when we have a generation of collectors who say to themselves thats it now

time to cash in, only to find theres not enough people out there willing to pay the prices they were prepared to pay, if we are honest with each other, there must be a number out there who look upon there collections as there pension, there nest egg, not all, but some, but as a starter how do you see the scene in say 15 years, I personaly will be over 60 and a I know a lot of my friends will be in that era and age group, will we see a record crunch where lots of the £100 + tunes around today fail to fetch 30% of there prices as the market is flooded with collections and people trying to cash in, I think its been apparant over the last couple of years some collectors have already taken advantage of todays prices

Speaking to a couple of my very old collecting mates, we disscussed this very subject over the weekend, we mentioned how a great number of the doo-wop & rock & roll collecting fraternity had sold up many years ago for this very reason, just not enough younger collectors coming through

I may add I unfortunatley will not be in such a position as a divorce some years back put paid to any dreams I had of a nest egg, although through my records I was able to start my life back on the property ladder

Its just something I ask myself

& wonder how others see it I know it wont realy bother some folk but other may be very reliant on there investments, just thought it made a good topic for discussion

[Bazza]

I think many collectors are scared to death of this question Moggy

Bazza

adding to this ,if i was a collector and considered my collection my Nest-egg,i would be getting rid of my big money tunes yesterday

Edited January 15, 2008 by bazza

[Guest moggy]

I think many collectors are scared to death of this question Moggy

Bazza

Could be why your the only one who has posted back then Bazz

[Jimmy A]

ive sold a shed load over the last 5 years,still buy but not as much and dont shell big money as much as i use to,the fact being alot of these records arent that rare really.Will be interesting to see who starts selling up first out of the big collectors/dealers.maybe they wont and they will take the records to the grave

[Jimmy A]

I think many collectors are scared to death of this question Moggy

Bazza

adding to this ,if i was a collector and considered my collection my Nest-egg,i would be getting rid of my big money tunes yesterday

not so much a nest egg bazza,i just got bored with hearing them out on the scene and they just sat at home collecting dust,so i got the cash back on them.Made a decent profit on some but also lost as well.With the lack of people coming onto the scene they wont be woth a in years to come

[Guest moggy]

ive sold a shed load over the last 5 years,still buy but not as much and dont shell big money as much as i use to,the fact being alot of these records arent that rare really.Will be interesting to see who starts selling up first out of the big collectors/dealers.maybe they wont and they will take the records to the grave

This is a good point

Imagine if everyone who owned a copy of the O"Jays I"ll Never forget You ,or a Steinways (well theres loads to choose really) said fook it, Im selling my copy, there would be 1000s of em I think

[Jimmy A]

This is a good point

Imagine if everyone who owned a copy of the O"Jays I"ll Never forget You ,or a Steinways (well theres loads to choose really) said fook it, Im selling my copy, there would be 1000s of em I think

dead right,this is just two of 1000s that you see week in week out for sale,as i said i still buy but very careful now.I sold my ojays a few weeks ago,nearly had to give it away

[Little-stevie]

Time to sell is coming up very very soon or maybe they have missed the boat..??? watching with interest...

I am looking forward to some nice bargains coming up soon..plus we now have a lot of soul nights that aint afraid to play cheapies and that means that many folk can get to dj without having the so called big tunes..

Lets see if a big dealer will drop a line or two on here...We know its a game of poker for a lot of them who is sweating now...

This topic been done a few times but nice all the same....I know big dealers who offer only 20% of the value for a collection,is that a fair price???? never done any buying or selling in bulk myself...

[Jimmy A]

Time to sell is coming up very very soon or maybe they have missed the boat..??? watching with interest...

I am looking forward to some nice bargains coming up soon..plus we now have a lot of soul nights that aint afraid to play cheapies and that means that many folk can get to dj without having the so called big tunes..

Lets see if a big dealer will drop a line or two on here...We know its a game of poker for a lot of them who is sweating now...

This topic been done a few times but nice all the same....I know big dealers who offer only 20% of the value for a collection,is that a fair price???? never done any buying or selling in bulk myself...

ive delt with rob smith on and off for 20 odd years,he used to take anything off your hands,now even he is very very picky about what he buys.its all about a quick turn around for him now

[Dave Moore]

I agree, the end is almost in sight for record collectors. You're all on the precipice of a financial disaster. Get out NOW while you still can. Next month your 'investment' may be worth zip, zilch, zero and a whole load of other 'z' words. So...as a personal favour to Soul-Sourcers I am prepared to take them off your hands. Get in touch before the crash comes at info@theresthatbeat.com and we'll even come and pick them up from you. Can't say fairer than that eh? W/Demos preferred but will accept stock issues at a push.

Most long term collectors would in fact welcome a crash as it would mean we can fill those gaps a little quicker if our $$ went a little further. Record price CRASH! Bring it on I say!

Edited January 15, 2008 by Dave Moore

[Pete S]

I know big dealers who offer only 20% of the value for a collection,is that a fair price???? never done any buying or selling in bulk myself...

Thats a disgraceful offer...most offer 50%

[Guest moggy]

Time to sell is coming up very very soon or maybe they have missed the boat..??? watching with interest...

I am looking forward to some nice bargains coming up soon..plus we now have a lot of soul nights that aint afraid to play cheapies and that means that many folk can get to dj without having the so called big tunes..

Lets see if a big dealer will drop a line or two on here...We know its a game of poker for a lot of them who is sweating now...

This topic been done a few times but nice all the same....I know big dealers who offer only 20% of the value for a collection,is that a fair price???? never done any buying or selling in bulk myself...

Can only imagine someone who has not been around for a while accepting 20% for there collection

Because thats a sh**e price

Got to admit when I sold mine to a very very well known dealer around 8 years ago maybe longer

He did have the grace to pay me around 80% of there value, telling me he had taken into consideration the years it had taken me to assemble

I did ask him what his intentions were after the purchase was complete

"Put em under me bed and sit on em for a few years" Clever Lad, make that 20% at todays prices I got for em

[Funky Si]

If anyone seriously collects soul 45s as an investment/nest egg/pension, then they need their head examining. It's a hobby, and an expensive one, serviced by a few people who make a living from buying & selling. If everyone starts selling to "cash-in", then it will be bargain basement time IMHO.

[Guest moggy]

If anyone seriously collects soul 45s as an investment/nest egg/pension, then they need their head examining. It's a hobby, and an expensive one, serviced by a few people who make a living from buying & selling. If everyone starts selling to "cash-in", then it will be bargain basement time IMHO.

Si

I think you would be most suprised at the amount of people who see it as a hobby & investment

[Little-stevie]

Can only imagine someone who has not been around for a while accepting 20% for there collection

Because thats a sh**e price

Got to admit when I sold mine to a very very well known dealer around 8 years ago maybe longer

He did have the grace to pay me around 80% of there value, telling me he had taken into consideration the years it had taken me to assemble

I did ask him what his intentions were after the purchase was complete

"Put em under me bed and sit on em for a few years" Clever Lad, make that 20% at todays prices I got for em

I know of folk who only got that Moggy..If they had not needed the cash then i am sure they could have held out for more but thats the game..This dealer knows you need the cash badly and hey presto,he gets them for a steal..

[Pete Eccles]

If collecting is treated as a hobby (as it should be) and not an investment, then there should be no worries,

Would a golfer or an angler expect his money back for his expensive equipment if he packed it in? Or does a football fan expect a return on his season ticket when the seasons finished? I think not,

The way i look at it if i pay say £100 for a record its because at that time i have £100 to spend and thats what i want to spend it on, if when ive had my £100 worth of 'fun' out of it anything i get for it moving it on could be classed as profit,

Stops me worrying anyway

[oldsteve woomble]

A good topic and worthy of serious consideration. I always said I would never, ever, ever, ever. EVER, sell my best tunes. But then again.............

For example, my Hamilton Movement is my favourite tune in my collection. (Not debating the merits of the record itself or whether it's overplayed...... whatever!). Ok, not the 'biggest' of money tunes and maybe I get to play it out a few times here and there at the odd do. Could maybe still get over a grand for it, and maybe in ten years time it will be worth a tenth of that cos there'll be no-one around wanting to buy it!!

But do I get a grand's 'financial' worth of enjoyment with it sitting in a record box?? Maybe not.

And am I a mug for having tunes similar tunes lying around, effectively depreciating while I could be cashing in and responsibly putting the loot elsewhere for it to appreciate?? Probably.............

Hmmm.........thinking period..................

No, bollocks to it. I ain't selling owt I love!!! Call me immature, call me irresponsible, call me tomorrow, call me (your anything man). They're my old, best friends. And old, best friends are forever.

Edited January 15, 2008 by steve woomble

[Funky Si]

Si

I think you would be most suprised at the amount of people who see it as a hobby & investment

Well they ought to ask a financial adviser whether they think it's a sensible investment and be prepared for the worst then! People who bought 45s in the 60s/70s/80s did so because they were collecting as a hobby surely? The fact that their collections are now worth (on paper) perhaps 10-20 times what they originally cost provides a potential windfall (so long as everyone doesn't try to sell at the same time). This does not suddenly turn them into wise investments.

[Bazza]

when you stand back and look at how much the scene has changed over the last 3 years or so,I would be scared to death, if I considerd my collection to be worth 50 - 100 grand,another couple of years .....I dont know, thing is a lot of the faces are just not there anymore, loads of handbaggers but the people you used to see on a regular basis where are they ?

Bazza

[Guest moggy]

Well they ought to ask a financial adviser whether they think it's a sensible investment and be prepared for the worst then! People who bought 45s in the 60s/70s/80s did so because they were collecting as a hobby surely? The fact that their collections are now worth (on paper) perhaps 10-20 times what they originally cost provides a potential windfall (so long as everyone doesn't try to sell at the same time). This does not suddenly turn them into wise investments.

Si

Your point regarding folk who bought there choons early doors is a good one, whatever happens they would not lose

But todays collectors maybe have to look at it a little differently, for instance take any record in the £100 value, where we know if all of a sudden collectors started off loading it in bulk because as stated previous there not that rare, this in turn makes the price drop, in which case I would assume, this would have to make someone think seriously about spending that amount and is it a wise investment

Only my opinion

[KevH]

moggy,don't ask that question.Can't contemplate the answer.

A very good friend of mine years back said,when he stood with his record box outside a venue a bunch of young fellas came by and laughed.

Just like he would have done if confronted by a Teddy Boy outside a hop.

Everything comes to an end,its just that maybe we wouldn't know what to do without it,cos when the bubble bursts it aint coming back.

Meanwhile enjoy every nite/niter and every purchase/sale.

[Steve L]

moggy,don't ask that question.Can't contemplate the answer.

A very good friend of mine years back said,when he stood with his record box outside a venue a bunch of young fellas came by and laughed.

Just like he would have done if confronted by a Teddy Boy outside a hop.

Everything comes to an end,its just that maybe we wouldn't know what to do without it,cos when the bubble bursts it aint coming back.

Meanwhile enjoy every nite/niter and every purchase/sale.

That Tymes of yours wont be worth shit in 6 months mate

[Funky Si]

Si

Your point regarding folk who bought there choons early doors is a good one, whatever happens they would not lose

But todays collectors maybe have to look at it a little differently, for instance take any record in the £100 value, where we know if all of a sudden collectors started off loading it in bulk because as stated previous there not that rare, this in turn makes the price drop, in which case I would assume, this would have to make someone think seriously about spending that amount and is it a wise investment

Only my opinion

I agree Moggy. I say, don't spend £100 on a record if you can't afford to spend £100 & are prepared never to see that money again. Steve Woomble's point about Hamilton Movement assumes his £1000 tune might be "only" worth £100 in a few year's time. I say it might be worth pennies or nothing if there's no collectors left. Music's not like bricks & mortar or gold - there is no intrinsic value in a lump of vinyl (well, until someone finds a way of converting it back to oil that is ...). The only value is in the perceived rarity of a record and the desire of collectors to own it - that's just the whim of a few fanatics really ...

[KevH]

That Tymes of yours wont be worth shit in 6 months mate

YOU MEAN THAT NEVER PLAYED COPY? M+?.

I'm trying to be serious here Steve.

[Guest moggy]

moggy,don't ask that question.Can't contemplate the answer.

A very good friend of mine years back said,when he stood with his record box outside a venue a bunch of young fellas came by and laughed.

Just like he would have done if confronted by a Teddy Boy outside a hop.

Everything comes to an end,its just that maybe we wouldn't know what to do without it,cos when the bubble bursts it aint coming back.

Meanwhile enjoy every nite/niter and every purchase/sale.

Kev I know your right

Its like lots of things we dont want to face cos were getting on a bit (ish)

But I just fancied some old gits type of discussion and maybe stir up some emotions

Im off now for a mid-life crisis

[Bazza]

You know ,when you sat in your comfy chair with you pipe an slippers,on your pension,you may think to youself " if I had the good sense to off load that lot a few years earlier" I could be sat sat round a pool in Barbados.....and the wife after putting up with me buying for years, could have had that new ( what ever)

just a thought

Bazza

[Guest moggy]

You know ,when you sat in your comfy chair with you pipe an slippers,on your pension,you may think to youself " if I had the good sense to off load that lot a few years earlier" I could be sat sat round a pool in Barbados.....and the wife after putting up with me buying for years, could have had that new ( what ever)

just a thought

Bazza

Bazz

Are you referring to the kids

[KevH]

You know ,

when you sat in your comfy chair with you pipe an slippers,

on your pension,you may think to youself " if I had the good sense to off load that lot a few years earlier" I could be sat sat round a pool in Barbados.....and the wife after putting up with me buying for years, could have had that new ( what ever)

just a thought

Bazza

groundhog day Bazza?

[Funky Si]

You know ,when you sat in your comfy chair with you pipe an slippers,on your pension,you may think to youself " if I had the good sense to off load that lot a few years earlier" I could be sat sat round a pool in Barbados.....and the wife after putting up with me buying for years, could have had that new ( what ever)

just a thought

Bazza

To quote Sir Henry at Rawlinson End "If I had all the money I'd spent on drink .... I'd spend it on drink"

You can't really put a value on the enjoyment that this wonderful music provides and has provided, but if you want to cash in on the boom in record prices, you would be best off doing it sooner rather than later - or that's what I reckon anyway. Me? Well I spend my spare money on records and I'll leave them to my kids - if they want to sell them, good luck to them, but I buy them to keep not to get rid of.

[Guest moggy]

Bazza does anyone smoke a pipe these days come to think of it

Must all be in Barbados by a pool

[macca]

I'd buy the house in Barbados (or Cuba after Fidel) & then start collecting again. I mean, who cares?

It's not something that you can rid yourself of, like a heavy cold. One thing's for sure, there ain't no cure!!

M

[Guest moggy]

To quote Sir Henry at Rawlinson End "If I had all the money I'd spent on drink .... I'd spend it on drink"

Quality

[KevH]

Bazza does anyone smoke a pipe these days come to think of it

think he means one with water in the bottom that you share with friends,,,,,apparently.

Must all be in Barbados by a pool

[Bazza]

groundhog day Bazza?

, you know me too well Kev

Bazza

[Guest moggy]

I sort of knew this would start to descend into chaos with insults abound but as much as I love em lads

Can we please get back to the thread

[KevH]

I sort of knew this would start to descend into chaos with insults abound but as much as I love em lads

Can we please get back to the thread

sorry ,can't help it.....i've got PSND syndrome.(Post Soul Night Disgrace).

[Guest moggy]

sorry ,can't help it.....i've got PSND syndrome.(Post Soul Night Disgrace).

Thats it Im selling up

Wheres me Conway Twitty LPS

[oldsteve woomble]

I agree Moggy. I say, don't spend £100 on a record if you can't afford to spend £100 & are prepared never to see that money again. Steve Woomble's point about Hamilton Movement assumes his £1000 tune might be "only" worth £100 in a few year's time. I say it might be worth pennies or nothing if there's no collectors left. Music's not like bricks & mortar or gold - there is no intrinsic value in a lump of vinyl (well, until someone finds a way of converting it back to oil that is ...). The only value is in the perceived rarity of a record and the desire of collectors to own it - that's just the whim of a few fanatics really ...

Agree totally Si. No way would i spend further big 'cash' on records now. Got to be trades all the way with the odd bit of 'little' money maybe if I see something i really fancy in a sales box at a venue.

Spending big money on records or crippling the credit card? Forget it. For me - It's All Over, It's All Over...............

Decent trades anyone? That's where the 'chase' is for me now....

Steve

[Guest taffy]

The biggest problem that everyone's overlooking is who's going to buy the big collections when/if they come up for sale.In my locality alone there are 5 or 6 collections worth in excess of 100 grand,who's got the money to take that kind of risk in a few years time especially when a few major league dealers are preparing for their retirement shortly.I think the bigger the collection the bigger the problem.

[Funky Si]

The biggest problem that everyone's overlooking is who's going to buy the big collections when/if they come up for sale.In my locality alone there are 5 or 6 collections worth in excess of 100 grand,who's got the money to take that kind of risk in a few years time especially when a few major league dealers are preparing for their retirement shortly.I think the bigger the collection the bigger the problem.

So there aren't actually all those collections "worth in excess of 100 grand" - its just that if you add up the book values of the records, the number you get is at least six digits long. The values could never be realised, so its pointless thinking of them in that way. Just look at the sales section on here every day and see what actually sells, or watch all those records not selling on eBay or Gemm or anywhere else. Value and asking price are two completely different things.

Look at the actual size of the rare soul market (total money is spent a year on rare soul 45s - my guess is £15m a year tops worldwide - £30k a week) compared to the supposed collective values of all the records we all own (my guess - £500m based on 10,000 collections with an average value of £5k). That's why it doesn't make sense as an investment.

Bloody good hobby though!

[Little-stevie]

Agree totally Si. No way would i spend further big 'cash' on records now. Got to be trades all the way with the odd bit of 'little' money maybe if I see something i really fancy in a sales box at a venue.

Spending big money on records or crippling the credit card? Forget it. For me - It's All Over, It's All Over...............

Decent trades anyone? That's where the 'chase' is for me now....

Steve

yes indeed..Its seems that quite a few big records have been picked up with trades of late..Trades is the way forward but thats no good for a person wanting to sell up for there nest egg..

[Pete S]

Bazza does anyone smoke a pipe these days come to think of it

Does anyone remember a bloke who used to always stand at the back of the main room at Wigan, just in front of the doors but back from the dancefloor, dressed completely differently to everyone else and obviously older, but most memorable feature was that he always used to be smoking a pipe! I didn't imagine this, someone else must have seen him as he was there a lot.

[Mark Bicknell]

The biggest problem that everyone's overlooking is who's going to buy the big collections when/if they come up for sale.In my locality alone there are 5 or 6 collections worth in excess of 100 grand,who's got the money to take that kind of risk in a few years time especially when a few major league dealers are preparing for their retirement shortly.I think the bigger the collection the bigger the problem.

Very good point Taffy also I've said it on here before there is already a 'Record Mountain' out there from the major dealers in the UK, not forgetting America and the rest of the world, you only have to study Ebay to see the vast amount of records on offer many of which we thought were hard to find and rare but there not, then you have all the established collectors and DJ's to consider which adds up to a huge amount of records.

I tend to buy, sell, swap, trade these days like many of us do but when I look at the two main 100 count DJ boxes I tend to take to gigs well it's scary if I was to actually sit down and work out the book prices Jacqui would have a new house, car etc.records are never an investment are they until you come to sell them....lol all I can say is if there is a crash in prices and values looming I'm glad I don't really through that much cash into it anymore but can still drop a couple of hundred quid here and there a month on stuff, face it guys and girls we are addict's and in this for the duration...lol Sam Williams will still sound brilliant to me be it at £800.00 or £8.00 no less soulful and no less a record whatever the price.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Edited January 15, 2008 by Mark Bicknell

[pikeys dog]

Does anyone remember a bloke who used to always stand at the back of the main room at Wigan, just in front of the doors but back from the dancefloor, dressed completely differently to everyone else and obviously older, but most memorable feature was that he always used to be smoking a pipe! I didn't imagine this, someone else must have seen him as he was there a lot.

could be Merv

[Guest taffy]

So there aren't actually all those collections "worth in excess of 100 grand" - its just that if you add up the book values of the records, the number you get is at least six digits long. The values could never be realised, so its pointless thinking of them in that way. Just look at the sales section on here every day and see what actually sells, or watch all those records not selling on eBay or Gemm or anywhere else. Value and asking price are two completely different things.

Look at the actual size of the rare soul market (total money is spent a year on rare soul 45s - my guess is £15m a year tops worldwide - £30k a week) compared to the supposed collective values of all the records we all own (my guess - £500m based on 10,000 collections with an average value of £5k). That's why it doesn't make sense as an investment.

Bloody good hobby though!

Totally agree with you si but i'm sure anyone selling up is going to price their records up and come to a figure what they think they are worth and then try and get a good percentage of that worth.My point is how many dealers have that sort of money to spend on these collections and how long would it take if they opted to sell them themselves on the likes of e-bay.A collection of 5- 10 thousand records would take years to shift.There are a lot of collections with this quantity around also quality not just quantity.Just glad i've not bought mine as an investment.

[Guest taffy]

Very good point Taffy also I've said it on here before there is already a 'Record Mountain' out there from the major dealers in the UK, not forgetting America and the rest of the world, you only have to study Ebay to see the vast amount of records on offer many of which we thought were hard to find and rare but there not, then you have all the established collectors and DJ's to consider which adds up to a huge amount of records.

I tend to buy, sell, swap, trade these days like many of us do but when I look at the two main 100 count DJ boxes I tend to take to gigs well it's scary if I was to actually sit down and work out the book prices Jacqui would have a new house, car etc.records are never an investment are they until you come to sell them....lol all I can say is if there is a crash in prices and values looming I'm glad I don't really through that much cash into it anymore but can still drop a couple of hundred quid here and there a month on stuff, face it guys and girls we are addict's and in this for the duration...lol Sam Williams will still sound brilliant to me be it at £800.00 or £8.00 no less soulful and no less a record whatever the price.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

exactly mark and those of us who've been around since the year dot know there a lot of copies of certain big ticket items sitting in collections with people that have stopped collecting or are armchair collectors.and i sold my hairline cracked sam williams 8 years ago for a fiver and thought it was a result.oh how times have changed in such a short time.

[Guest]

Thats a disgraceful offer...most offer 50%

Bull!!

[Bazza]

Does anyone remember a bloke who used to always stand at the back of the main room at Wigan, just in front of the doors but back from the dancefloor, dressed completely differently to everyone else and obviously older, but most memorable feature was that he always used to be smoking a pipe! I didn't imagine this, someone else must have seen him as he was there a lot.

Did he usually have a tuxedo type Jacket on,if its the same fella he was a dustman in nottm,got the shock of his life when he saw me once when he was emtying the bins,think he liked to make out he was a bit more than a dustman

Bazza

Edited January 15, 2008 by bazza

[Mark Bicknell]

exactly mark and those of us who've been around since the year dot know there a lot of copies of certain big ticket items sitting in collections with people that have stopped collecting or are armchair collectors.and i sold my hairline cracked sam williams 8 years ago for a fiver and thought it was a result.oh how times have changed in such a short time.

A case of Sam 'Slipping through your finger's' there then Taffy....lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

No end in sight here thanks,Russians,Euopeans East and West,Australia,India will be on board soon,Americans etc, it only just startin`if ya ax me......R&R as been done to death,and Doo Wap is crappolla!!.