Cunnie Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Seems that every time I look through a sales box recently I see a copy of ZZ & Co for about £200 & every time I ask about it the seller say's it came directly from the label owner. Pretty sure that they're are 2 different presses of this as well as can remember some pretty heated debate on here a couple of years ago that even included the label owner himself. Boots? Originals? 2nd presses? Anybody shed any light on the topic? Can also remember an old mate having a green copy with silver writing on Columbus years ago. Never seen or heard of another green un. Anybody help?
Chalky Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 there are two presses. Off top of me head is it the matrix in run out, one longer than t'other?
vaultofsouler Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 (edited) there are two presses. Off top of me head is it the matrix in run out, one longer than t'other? Trying to remember back Chalky but I think your not far off.... bit of an additon to info on the "boot".... When I say "boot" I mean I haven't heard owt "concrete" otherwise to suggest "legal" in any way.... Sold mine on quite a few years ago so can't have a look at the matrix.... Edited January 11, 2008 by vaultofsouler
Cunnie Posted January 11, 2008 Author Posted January 11, 2008 Trying to remember back Chalky but I think your not far off.... bit of an additon to info on the "boot".... When I say "boot" I mean I haven't heard owt "concrete" otherwise to suggest "legal" in any way.... Sold mine on quite a few years ago so can't have a look at the matrix.... Just been on popsike looking under ZZ & Co & ZZ & Company as well & it don't help much Mark. Seems old Zee Zee had e'm in his garage, loft, attic, kitchen, swimming pool etc. Not only that but when it's played on this side o't pond shouldn't we call it Zed Zed & Co rather than Zee Zee
vaultofsouler Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 Just been on popsike looking under ZZ & Co & ZZ & Company as well & it don't help much Mark. Seems old Zee Zee had e'm in his garage, loft, attic, kitchen, swimming pool etc. ]Not only that but when it's played on this side o't pond shouldn't we call it Zed Zed & Co rather than Zee Zee [/color} Depends on the length of growth on us chins at the time or how far shut us eyes were... .... Wasn't actually aware that "sum" came from the "label owner" as you say.... or that wouldn't be that old chestnut of "vynilcarvers" with a "photostat" stuck on would it .... Reminds me of that "lil old peddler" chap on evil bay ....
bri pinch Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 ACTUALLY A VERY RARE ORIGINAL. 99% OF THE COPIES THAT ARE TURNING UP OF LATE ARE THE EARLY 80T'S RE PRESS. BOUGHT MINE YEARS AGO OFF JM, LATE 80T'S HE TOLD ME THAT AT THE TIME HE HAD A FEW ORIGINALS ABOUT TEN YEARS PREVIOUSLY AND ONLY TWO OR THREE HAD EVER COME BACK TO HIM. BRI PINCH.
TOAD Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 this has been on here recently(im new) yeah something about the matrix as i had one at the time turns out to be a boot? wont tell you who i got it off
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 11, 2008 Posted January 11, 2008 I think its MRP/FR-JB-51679-GRFTG E in a C and BLR on the other side.
Shaun W Posted January 12, 2008 Posted January 12, 2008 Z.Z. and Company - Gettin Ready - Columbus Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL deadwax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2 . COUNTERFEIT Lightly scratched matrix FRJB - 51679 - A . then half a turn TLP. Surely the original with strong sound quality is the only 45 worth owning. Lifted from a previous JM SS posting
Sean Hampsey Posted January 12, 2008 Posted January 12, 2008 Let's not forget the LP version too (Bound Sound)! Played it out a few times over the years to good effect. Sean
Guest Gavin Page Posted January 12, 2008 Posted January 12, 2008 Let's not forget the LP version too (Bound Sound)! Played it out a few times over the years to good effect. Sean I want that ALBUM !!!!!!!
Guest Posted January 12, 2008 Posted January 12, 2008 I want that ALBUM !!!!!!! I think a few people are after it Gav, your gonna hate this but i sold a copy to that nice Mr Goucher at essence a few years ago now for £20 i think,and before you ask i haven't got another one apart from the one in my collection which ain't going nowhere. Andy Mann
Steve Plumb Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 Z.Z. and Company - Gettin Ready - Columbus Authentic Original! Quick check in case you own the inferior sound quality counterfeit. THE ORIGINAL deadwax has a deeply scratched matrix reading MRP/FR-JB - 51679 -"GRFTG" - Re2 . COUNTERFEIT Lightly scratched matrix FRJB - 51679 - A . then half a turn TLP. Surely the original with strong sound quality is the only 45 worth owning. Lifted from a previous JM SS posting This is correct I have one of each at Plumb Towers as we speak! JM has confirmed it too! The copies that turned up recently (think they were actually originals) came from Clarkey who rang Jesse Butler (lead singer of Z Z & Co) asking about his in-demand LP (the one talked about above), only to be told he had none BUT he had a box of 'that 45 you Brits used to buy' back in the 80's!!!!!!!!!!! Ian knocked them out at yarmouth last year for a ton each if memory serves? Hope this helps? Cheers Steve
Sebastian Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 How about turning the relevant information in this thread into an entry in the "Sharp End Of Vinyl" sub-forum? Has anyone got scans/photos of the different matrix markings?
Mick Holdsworth Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 This is correct I have one of each at Plumb Towers as we speak! JM has confirmed it too! The copies that turned up recently (think they were actually originals) came from Clarkey who rang Jesse Butler (lead singer of Z Z & Co) asking about his in-demand LP (the one talked about above), only to be told he had none BUT he had a box of 'that 45 you Brits used to buy' back in the 80's!!!!!!!!!!! Ian knocked them out at yarmouth last year for a ton each if memory serves? Hope this helps? Cheers Steve Hello I recently bought one of these "Zee Zee's Attic Finds" from Ian Clarke - £100 - on looking at the matrix, it is the second set of markings as described above ... Lightly scratched matrix FRJB - 51679 - A . then half a turn TLP. So if that marking is a counterfeit, does that mean that Jesse Butler did them, making them Legal ??? I'm confused. Cheers Mick https://northern-soul-records.com https://motownsound.co.uk
Dave Pinch Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 no more legal or original than gold of my life IMVHO dave
paup-ine Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 How about turning the relevant information in this thread into an entry in the "Sharp End Of Vinyl" sub-forum? Has anyone got scans/photos of the different matrix markings? Dont know if this will come out.
Guest Gavin Page Posted January 14, 2008 Posted January 14, 2008 I think a few people are after it Gav, your gonna hate this but i sold a copy to that nice Mr Goucher at essence a few years ago now for £20 i think,and before you ask i haven't got another one apart from the one in my collection which ain't going nowhere. Andy Mann
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 This is correct I have one of each at Plumb Towers as we speak! JM has confirmed it too! The copies that turned up recently (think they were actually originals) came from Clarkey who rang Jesse Butler (lead singer of Z Z & Co) asking about his in-demand LP (the one talked about above), only to be told he had none BUT he had a box of 'that 45 you Brits used to buy' back in the 80's!!!!!!!!!!! Ian knocked them out at yarmouth last year for a ton each if memory serves? Hope this helps? Cheers Steve mine came from clarkey but looking at the run out and from the info on here its not an original ???? and i asked him to confirm that it was on original B4 i sent the cheque .... will have to ask for a refund ! cheers david
Guest Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 So if that marking is a counterfeit, does that mean that Jesse Butler did them, making them Legal ??? I'm confused. Cheers Mick
Cunnie Posted January 18, 2008 Author Posted January 18, 2008 Thanks for all the info so far following my original post. Been extremely helpful especially the album info but there's not been any comment about the green Columbus copy yet. Anybody?
Ady Potts Posted January 18, 2008 Posted January 18, 2008 (edited) Hello Cunnie, The deadwax info on the original is : MRP/FR--JB-51679-GRFTG then a 25mm gap, then a letter B encased by a letter C. Under the label there is a slightly raised 4mm wide ridge that passes through the large middle sail on the ship logo. Hope this helps pottsy ps can anyone help with any info on the reissue of the VISE 45 on Chocolate Mama Records. Been told they don't have the address round the bottom of the label. Would be interested to know the markings in the deadwax. Edited January 18, 2008 by pottsy
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 GRFTGD. Suppose that the best way is to play them back to back and see if one stands out as poor quality unless they are from the same plates but missing the extra letters.
45cellar Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 How about turning the relevant information in this thread into an entry in the "Sharp End Of Vinyl" sub-forum? Has anyone got scans/photos of the different matrix markings? Hoping to achieve this, However, my Mod permissions only in "Sharp End Of Vinyl" Be good to archive this thread. I'm on to it.
Sean Hampsey Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Can also remember an old mate having a green copy with silver writing on Columbus years ago. Never seen that Martin... Are you sure it wasn't the dodgy lights in the KGB? Who had it BTW? (I want one)
Cunnie Posted January 19, 2008 Author Posted January 19, 2008 Never seen that Martin... Are you sure it wasn't the dodgy lights in the KGB? Who had it BTW? (I want one) 100% sure it wasn't the lights Sean. Have even played the green copy myself but it was in the early 80s. Have pm'd you some more info on it.
Ady Potts Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Forgot to say, the deadwax info of the flip on mine is : MRP/FR--JB-51679-BLR then a 15mm gap, then a letter B encased by a letter C.
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 Spoke to Ian Clarke last night and he sent this email and i said i would post it for him...... both yellows are original but they were pressed in different pressing plants , as many US 45's are ...... hi johns book is wrong..sorry these copies came direct from jesse butlers attic in upper new york..they were made years ago and he knows as they are his 45s..i spoke to john m only last week on another matter ..and put him right on the mistake....infact according to jesse the deep numbered ones are the latter press..bar a month or so ..both were done by jesse himself.. hope that solves the question best ian
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Oh dear, Dose this mean that many people have sold copies that they thought were boots for cheap. Edited January 19, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
Cunnie Posted January 19, 2008 Author Posted January 19, 2008 Oh dear, Dose this mean that many people have sold copies that they thought were boots for cheap. Look at it from the other side though. The people who were buying what they thought were 2nd issues have got bargains. Only problem is that the folks who bought what they thought were originals have ended up with the 2nd press. Who's right then, Manship or Clarkie???
bri pinch Posted January 19, 2008 Posted January 19, 2008 HE MUST HAVE USED DIFFERENT MASTER PLATES THEN COZ THE TWO PRESSINGS DONT EVEN LOOK REMOTELY SIMILAR, ALSO THE SOUND QUALITY ON THE NOW 2ND PRESSING IS BETTER AND IT,S ALSO RARER. BRI PINCH.
Dave Pinch Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 if you see both the two presses together its so so obvious which is real and which is not. the other presses that came from jesse butler maybe wernt made at the time. "getdown" was issued in 1979. In 1981 richard searling played it on hallam then stated he had no idea who ZZ was. he thought it was possibly ZZ hill so it looks to me that jesse hadnt been found at that point. i reckon he had them repressed up when they found him. all i remember seeing is the ones with the longer matrix and better sound quality ( i bought one myself). its only been in recent years that ive seen these other copies and now every one i know has one of em dave
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) I have played the record out 2 or 3 times now and re the sound issue I have not had to adjust the mixer volume up from the last record I played on that deck ???? I double checked with Ian B4 I sent my money and talked to Max Rees about it, he informed me that teddyalbert was Ian and that he has no history of any scams with bootlegs or re presses and knows and buys from many of the artists and producers of the records and not just from dealers in the US ...... with that reputation and that reference from a man I trust 100% I sent the money ......... after my phone chat with Ian on Friday night , I have no worries about the ZZ&CO 45 I have..... and if anyone is unsure then pick up the phone to Ian and put your mind at rest .... negative comments may come from people that have the other issue as they would have paid 2 or 3 time the price , but as that is a harder to find issue it will hold its price Edited January 20, 2008 by CAMBRIDGE SOUL
Dave Pinch Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 i dont doubt clarky`s integrity at all anymore than say manship, pat brady or tim brown. and if he did get them from zz himself thats fair enough. they might be "real" just not "original" if you know what i mean. i dont think its quite an elijah cole scenario with zz but u know what time does to the memory. reference the sound quality, the longer matrix is louder but the shorter matrix aint exactly lp fidelity. dave
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 . they might be "real" just not "original" if you know what i mean.. dave no not sure i do know what you mean ????? ...... the info i have is that they are originals and the one's that have been called boots could have been the 1st of the press !
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) It puts a question mark on the quality of the first press if this is the case and maybe they were withdraw due to this lack in volume. I have put a sound clip up of the long matrix but it's is in Mono from Refosoul so no direct comparison as yet. It all sounds a bit The Pages to me. I have played the record out 2 or 3 times now and re the sound issue I have not had to adjust the mixer volume up from the last record I played on that deck ???? Unless you can compare both copies back to back this makes no sense every record has a different volume especially 70ts stereo they seem to be half the volume of a good mono 60ts record Edited January 20, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 It puts a question mark on the quality of the first press if this is the case and maybe they were withdraw due to this lack in volume. I have put a sound clip up of the long matrix but it's is in Mono from Refosoul so no direct comparison as yet. It all sounds a bit The Pages to me. The Pages ? the pages boot was a boot and the original was the original ... that one's simple compared to this !!!! ..... i see no reason not to take Ian at his word all the best David
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 20, 2008 Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) Original or not ?? The Pages boot is going for good money like the Tie John & The Weirdest. Oddly enough I tried to borrow one of the short issue matrix on Saturday but the guy said he thought it was a boot and sent it back. Edited January 20, 2008 by Prophonics 2029
pikeys dog Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 I very nearly bought one of these recently 'found' issues... but smelt a bit fishy so ended up giving it the heave-ho... I counted quite a few through eBay and on sales lists, so was £100 too much for a record that had dubiously (or otherwise) turned up in quantity.
Dave Pinch Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 also why if the shorter matrix was withdrawn is there stacks of them and the longer matrix still a very rare item. when i compared both copies together my gut reaction was that the shorter matrix was a boot. they just look or even feel shabbier than the long matrix IMVHO dave
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) also why if the shorter matrix was withdrawn is there stacks of them and the longer matrix still a very rare item. when i compared both copies together my gut reaction was that the shorter matrix was a boot. they just look or even feel shabbier than the long matrix IMVHO dave no one said the shorter matrix copy was withdraw ????? i have had both copies in my hands this week and apart from the matrix number you could not tell them apart ???? as for stacks of them i think Ian Said the box had about 50 in.......not stacks...... these threads can make things sound awful ! so now the short matrix looks shabby ... feels low quality .... the sound quality is that bad it's off the scale .... when in fact without looking at the matrix you can not tell them apart ! all the best David Edited January 21, 2008 by CAMBRIDGE SOUL
Pete S Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 And you people part with good money for this? You must be f*cking mad.
Peter99 Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 no one said the shorter matrix copy was withdraw ????? i have had both copies in my hands this week and apart from the matrix number you could not tell them apart ???? as for stacks of them i think Ian Said the box had about 50 in.......not stacks...... these threads can make things sound awful ! so now the short matrix looks shabby ... feels low quality .... the sound quality is that bad it's off the scale .... when in fact without looking at the matrix you can not tell them apart ! all the best Davidpo Hey Dave Interested in what you have to say mate - but them big letters fook my brain up!
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 And you people part with good money for this? You must be f*cking mad. good job we do .... if we were all snobs you'd never sell grapvine on your website .. nice site by the way lots of info ... nice one
Pete S Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Hey Dave Interested in what you have to say mate - but them big letters fook my brain up! Me too, already asked if theres any way to turn html off and just have plain text
CAMBRIDGE SOUL Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Hey Dave Interested in what you have to say mate - but them big letters fook my brain up! it's doing the same to mine having to think and type at the same time !
Steve G Posted January 21, 2008 Posted January 21, 2008 Quite feasible some more were pressed up in 81 by Jesse. We were in contact with him, so why wouldn't he if he'd sold out?
Dave Pinch Posted January 22, 2008 Posted January 22, 2008 a good point stevie. bearing in mind the release was only 18 m0nths old when first spun and a little later they discovered jesse. when he discovered it was being played in the uk he had more copies pressed up. the only difference on the label is the extra _ on the matrix but the vynil not only with the much longer matrix looks totally different to me with much darker grooves and considerably shorter run out groove dave
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