The Begining Of The Rare Soul Scene

[Harry Crosby]

Whilst pm`ing one of the members on s/s yesterday, we touched on the subject of wich records started the rare soul scene as we know it today, would be intresting to hear your views on this, we came up with cecil washington & john & the wierdest?

[De-to]

the rare soul scene surely goes back a tad further than the tunes you mentioned i think it all started with the mod and proper early r&b scenes in the early/mid 60s then just evolved into "northern soul scene" as time went on.

[Guest topcatnumpty1]

Mr. Bang Bang Man,Baby Reconsider,Landslide,Beating Rythm,I,ll always love you etc. rare records at the time--hard to get hold of---unless you had the contacts(b4 these records were legally or illegally re-issued)and often cost more than a weeks wages---does this ring any bells.I would say the start of the Rare soul scene as we know it was about 1968/69----and i wish i,d been born 10 yrs. earlier!!!

Tony C.

the rare soul scene surely goes back a tad further than the tunes you mentioned i think it all started with the mod and proper early r&b scenes in the early/mid 60s then just evolved into "northern soul scene" as time went on.

[Chalky]

the rare soul scene surely goes back a tad further than the tunes you mentioned i think it all started with the mod and proper early r&b scenes in the early/mid 60s then just evolved into "northern soul scene" as time went on.

I think Harry means that the type of records mentioned were not your usual traditional northern soul that had preceded them and the tempo and pace was different and more akin to what was to come from Stafford an d beyond. I've always considered both to be scene changing records.

Edited December 29, 2007 by chalky

[Kevinkent]

Surely there was no "traditional Northern Soul" in the early days. It's all just evolution of the scene as it developed. Many of the big venues, and a lot of small local ones, were ground breaking in their own time.

At least, that's the way I remember it from the mid to late sixties onwards.

One thing that really p's me off is DJ's playing what they refer to as Youth Club tracks. Bollocks! When they were originally played they were the business and bloody hard to find. I can only presume that said DJ's were still in short trousers at the time.

Anyways, 2 that spring to mind for me are Michael - C.O.D.'s, and Hey Girl Don't Bother Me - Tams.

Never hear the Tams HGDBM now, but I remember paying a weeks wages for it and was proud to own 1 of only 3 copies that I knew of (in my little world). The other 2 were at the Cally in Dunstable, and The George, Wilby, Northants. Walking into The George with that playing and everyone clapping along was the nearest thing to heaven for me.

-Kev

Edited December 29, 2007 by KevinKent

[Chalky]

Surely there was no "traditional Northern Soul" in the early days. It's all just evolution of the scene as it developed. Many of the big venues, and a lot of small local ones, were ground breaking in their own time.

-Kev

Your probably right but many records are now described as you traditional northern soul sound but records like the two Harry mentioned seem to break the mould at the back end of the 70's early 80's, think thats what he's getting at, how the style changed from up tempo dancers in the main to more and more records in the vein of Cecil Washington and John and the Weirdest....thats how I see the question anyway!

[Guest topcatnumpty1]

Am i correct in thinking that--Hey girl don,t bother me---was re-released on Probe in 1971 ish--purely due to demand from the burgeoning(growing Rod!) soul scene and could be called the "first Northern Soul Record to get to Number 1 in the pop charts---maybe i,m wrong (again)

Tony C.

Surely there was no "traditional Northern Soul" in the early days. It's all just evolution of the scene as it developed. Many of the big venues, and a lot of small local ones, were ground breaking in their own time.

At least, that's the way I remember it from the mid to late sixties onwards.

One thing that really p's me off is DJ's playing what they refer to as Youth Club tracks. Bollocks! When they were originally played they were the business and bloody hard to find. I can only presume that said DJ's were still in short trousers at the time.

Anyways, 2 that spring to mind for me are Michael - C.O.D.'s, and Hey Girl Don't Bother Me - Tams.

Never hear the Tams HGDBM now, but I remember paying a weeks wages for it and was proud to own 1 of only 3 copies that I knew of (in my little world). The other 2 were at the Cally in Dunstable, and The George, Wilby, Northants. Walking into The George with that playing and everyone clapping along was the nearest thing to heaven for me.

-Kev

[Harry Crosby]

Your probably right but many records are now described as you traditional northern soul sound but records like the two Harry mentioned seem to break the mould at the back end of the 70's early 80's, think thats what he's getting at, how the style changed from up tempo dancers in the main to more and more records in the vein of Cecil Washington and John and the Weirdest....thats how I see the question anyway!

Thats correct chalky, of course i understand that northern soul was based on finding obscure tracks, the reason i posted this topic was i was looking at a richard searling playlist in an old northern noise, from 79/80 and although many of these records have either been re-issued, or booted, they have in no way diminished in price, as was the norm when this happened, so imho begining a whole new way of defining northern soul/ collecting, like chalky says rarity seemed to take over, from dance tempo records, There are some trully fantastic records that have either been overlooked or just underplayed,+many flip sides that are not played simply because they do not fit into todays rare soul scene, starting this topic certainly was not meant to offend anyone it was just open to discussion

[Bazza]

Thats correct chalky, of course i understand that northern soul was based on finding obscure tracks, the reason i posted this topic was i was looking at a richard searling playlist in an old northern noise, from 79/80 and although many of these records have either been re-issued, or booted, they have in no way diminished in price, as was the norm when this happened, so imho begining a whole new way of defining northern soul/ collecting, like chalky says rarity seemed to take over, from dance tempo records, There are some trully fantastic records that have either been overlooked or just underplayed,+many flip sides that are not played simply because they do not fit into todays rare soul scene, starting this topic certainly was not meant to offend anyone it was just open to discussion

Im not sure this right Harry,I think after the R&B 60s the scene in the early days was based around uptempo soul dance music , and the more obscure rare tunes just happened to suit the scene better, than poppy type soul that was being played main stream.....could be wrong tho'

Rare or not it did'nt matter..but it had to be a good usually uptempo dance tune

Bazza

[Guest]

Think I'm siding with you Bazza and I hope you enjoyed Boxing Day?

[Pete S]

although many of these records have either been re-issued, or booted, they have in no way diminished in price

No but they did do, for a long time, it was only late 80's prices started climbing high, in 87-88 therewere probably only 30 or so records worth £500 or more

[Bazza]

Think I'm siding with you Bazza and I hope you enjoyed Boxing Day?

Yep I did, i was dancing me socks off, nice to catch up with ya

Bazza

[Harry Crosby]

Im not sure this right Harry,I think after the R&B 60s the scene in the early days was based around uptempo soul dance music , and the more obscure rare tunes just happened to suit the scene better, than poppy type soul that was being played main stream.....could be wrong tho'

Rare or not it did'nt matter..but it had to be a good usually uptempo dance tune

Bazza

Of course your right there bazza, maybe ive worded the original post incorrectly,what i was getting at was all of a sudden instead of there maybe one out of a hundred played records being valued at £100 or more, at the time of the two records mentioned in my origonal post, it seemed more & more records were turning up with huge price tickets because of there rarity, and more and more people were willing to pay the price to own these records, hence a new kind of collecting was started, its very hard trying to find the right way of describing this, it just seemed that at one point there was a sudden influx of super rare discs being played over a short period of time, was it the people who were supplying the dj`s or the dj`s wanting there sets to stand alone above all others, maybe thats the case i don`t know, it just seems since that time a whole new way of record collecting began, and for some people the rarer the better

[Ady Croasdell]

I think that early 80s period was a time when the knowledge of collectors, DJs and dealers taught us what records were genuinely rare and the clever ones picked up tomorrows monsters relatively cheaply.

I am very sorry to say I was not one of that clever crowd.

Yes I think rarety at the start of the Northern Scene was secondary to how good the music was. Because it was all new, the quality of the record (for the tastes of the time) mattered above all. It still is to a large extent but rarety has come more into it on some parts of the scene.

I think the Tams HGDBM was first re-released because of the scene but picked up plays from non-scene DJ's quickly and crossed over to the great unwashed. It must have been N Soul's first big hit, and possibly its biggest

[good angel]

I think that early 80s period was a time when the knowledge of collectors, DJs and dealers taught us what records were genuinely rare and the clever ones picked up tomorrows monsters relatively cheaply.

I am very sorry to say I was not one of that clever crowd.

Yes Ady,

Did that 444 Label record,ever turn up again?

Happy New Year, Ady.

Kev

[Harry Crosby]

I think that early 80s period was a time when the knowledge of collectors, DJs and dealers taught us what records were genuinely rare and the clever ones picked up tomorrows monsters relatively cheaply.

I am very sorry to say I was not one of that clever crowd.

Yes I think rarety at the start of the Northern Scene was secondary to how good the music was. Because it was all new, the quality of the record (for the tastes of the time) mattered above all. It still is to a large extent but rarety has come more into it on some parts of the scene.

I think the Tams HGDBM was first re-released because of the scene but picked up plays from non-scene DJ's quickly and crossed over to the great unwashed. It must have been N Soul's first big hit, and possibly its biggest

Don`t think many of us were of that crowd adey, However for me as the casino told of its intention to close, the amount of records that came available through the record bar was unbelievable, it seemed if you had the money on you at one point, nothing was unavailable in there, don`t know wether people were of the opinion it was the end of northern soul, and time to sell up in a very short space of time i managed to get together i`d say 90% of richards now legendary 79/80 playlist most coming from that record bar. GREAT TIME FOR A YOUNG COLLECTOR

Edited December 29, 2007 by HARRY CROSBY

[Ady Croasdell]

Yes Ady,

Did that 444 Label record,ever turn up again?

Happy New Year, Ady.

Kev

No and I saw the lad I sold it to on the 22nd at the Harboro do. He'd have told me if he'd contacted the bloke he sold it to.

[Harry Crosby]

good topic this lads,brain food galore,probably reflects our scene so well,our open mindedness etc,just noticed that nobody mentioned that most of the case especially earlier on ,so ive been told was the quest for new tunes,,im lead to believe that natural four "thought you were mine" was a new release at the torch in stoke,5p etc so i assume at the time with the abundance of talent about ,specific taste ,shortage of media etc it would have been almost nigh impossible to keep tabs on everything,future monsters or not? anyone?

Being a young collector, if you were prepared to ask or sit and listen to more knowledgable people they were only too happy to pass on there knowledge, and your right in saying about the lack of media, you only learnt by either the above or trolling through thousands of records in boxes, nowadays its all there at the push of a button, luckily i was from york were there was a healthy record collecting scene, ie RON PEDLEY,CHRIS HOLMES, ALAN RHODES all who helped me on my way and of course mr tony coleby who was a great help in those days & still is today

Edited December 29, 2007 by HARRY CROSBY

[max millward]

turning into a very interesting topic!!!

casting my mind back to the late 60's

i think that quite a few people had realised

that some uk releases were hard to find!

even to the point that in some cases issues

were rarer than demo's.

with the advent of u/s/a imports arriving in mass

amounts, one could be forgiven for not thinking

anything could be that rare!! after all how big

was america! there must be 1000's of copies

of everything!!

how wrong we were proved to be!

little was known back in those early day's

about records being made in small quantities

and sold in a local area of a town or city,

what was not sold could have been stored

by a group member,song writer,producer,

or even the guy who paid for the pressing,

or even destroyed!

i for one know that if we had known the situation

and how few copies had ever been made most of

us would have never sold anything!

i can remember being offered £20-40 for a record

back in the very early 70's & refusing to sell anything

that was dancefloor friendly because i needed them

to keep punters happy, i did sell one or two that people

just would not take too,even after weeks of playing them

at least twice a night,giving the tune every chance to break

& go massive!!

one such record that just nobody would dance to at the time

which really killed me dead was the professionals on groove city

went on to become a monster some 5 years later!!

max

[Harry Crosby]

turning into a very interesting topic!!!

casting my mind back to the late 60's

i think that quite a few people had realised

that some uk releases were hard to find!

even to the point that in some cases issues

were rarer than demo's.

with the advent of u/s/a imports arriving in mass

amounts, one could be forgiven for not thinking

anything could be that rare!! after all how big

was america! there must be 1000's of copies

of everything!!

how wrong we were proved to be!

little was known back in those early day's

about records being made in small quantities

and sold in a local area of a town or city,

what was not sold could have been stored

by a group member,song writer,producer,

or even the guy who paid for the pressing,

or even destroyed!

i for one know that if we had known the situation

and how few copies had ever been made most of

us would have never sold anything!

i can remember being offered £20-40 for a record

back in the very early 70's & refusing to sell anything

that was dancefloor friendly because i needed them

to keep punters happy, i did sell one or two that people

just would not take too,even after weeks of playing them

at least twice a night,giving the tune every chance to break

& go massive!!

one such record that just nobody would dance to at the time

which really killed me dead was the professionals on groove city

went on to become a monster some 5 years later!!

max

Is it just me max or are you of the same opinion that whilst the value of american rarities have spiralled in price, the value of british records don`t seem to have been affected to the same extent, at one time the british record releases were the most desirable in my opinion

[max millward]

Is it just me max or are you of the same opinion that whilst the value of american rarities have spiralled in price, the value of british records don`t seem to have been affected to the same extent, at one time the british record releases were the most desirable in my opinion

hi harry

yes i think you are right!

most uk things seem to be available at quite reasonable prices

compared to the import rarity.

it is good to see that some original uk releases are fetching solid

prices, say 2 to 3 times the cost of the import equivelent.

max.

[Harry Crosby]

hi harry

yes i think you are right!

most uk things seem to be available at quite reasonable prices

compared to the import rarity.

it is good to see that some original uk releases are fetching solid

prices, say 2 to 3 times the cost of the import equivelent.

max.

And yet you would have thought, it would be the opposite especially in this day and age, after all comparing the size of america with the uk, and still we see week after week high value imports on numerous listings

[Guest Trevski]

Don`t think many of us were of that crowd adey, However for me as the casino told of its intention to close, the amount of records that came available through the record bar was unbelievable, it seemed if you had the money on you at one point, nothing was unavailable in there, don`t know wether people were of the opinion it was the end of northern soul, and time to sell up in a very short space of time i managed to get together i`d say 90% of richards now legendary 79/80 playlist most coming from that record bar. GREAT TIME FOR A YOUNG COLLECTOR

The thing I will never understand now was the "It's beeing booted next week" phenomena whereby, as soon as a rumour that something was being booted, everybody dumped the originals! Lost count of the times I heard "Don't buy that, it's being booted" Silly really, but back then, a record was 'dead in the water' as soon as it was booted and you couldn't shift it! I remember finding something in a box I wanted, then sending Ronnie to whisper to the guy it was being booted next week, after a couple more 'helpful comments' from my chums, I'd ask how much and the guy couldn't wait to get rid cheap!

Being a young collector, if you were prepared to ask or sit and listen to more knowledgable people they were only too happy to pass on there knowledge, and your right in saying about the lack of media, you only learnt by either the above or trolling through thousands of records in boxes, nowadays its all there at the push of a button, luckily i was from york were there was a healthy record collecting scene, ie RON PEDLEY,CHRIS HOLMES, ALAN RHODES all who helped me on my way and of course mr tony coleby who was a great help in those days & still is today

Talkin' of York, don't forget IAN O'HARA in that lot Harry, phenomenal knowledge! ( I was supposed to know a little too.. )

[max millward]

And yet you would have thought, it would be the opposite especially in this day and age, after all comparing the size of america with the uk, and still we see week after week high value imports on numerous listings

yes i must agree we do see them turning up on a regular basis

while it is more than likely the uk copies are the same old copies

that are changing hands and if things carry on as they are with

more & more imports being found the uk copies will become more

and more collectable.

of course there is that bone of contention that the uk release is

just a second issue!! the american the original issue!

the wonderful world of northern soul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

max

[Harry Crosby]

The thing I will never understand now was the "It's beeing booted next week" phenomena whereby, as soon as a rumour that something was being booted, everybody dumped the originals! Lost count of the times I heard "Don't buy that, it's being booted" Silly really, but back then, a record was 'dead in the water' as soon as it was booted and you couldn't shift it! I remember finding something in a box I wanted, then sending Ronnie to whisper to the guy it was being booted next week, after a couple more 'helpful comments' from my chums, I'd ask how much and the guy couldn't wait to get rid cheap!

Talkin' of York, don't forget IAN O'HARA in that lot Harry, phenomenal knowledge! ( I was supposed to know a little too.. )

Quite right too trev, ian was one of the few who never said HARRY YOU MUST BE MAD BUY OLDIES, THEY`LL ONLY GET BOOTED N GO DOWN IN PRICE! hmmmm nice to hear from ya trev, got me driving test soon so will be able to get around a bit more hoping to get to wilton more often this year whens it re-open?

[Guest Bogue]

do tastes change?do peoplechange?does the social situation reflect the musical taste? weve been about now 40 years and still keep keepin on,best scene in the universe,does opinion in one area of the country diffente from another?i remember goin the hundred club in early 90s and buying cliff nobles as he was considered a bit commercial ,for a very reasonable price it later become quite popular ,we have embraced so much change over the years i dont think you can just have 2 or 3 tunes from one certain era

Just been reading through the thread & was thinking exactly the same. The type of tunes Harry was talking about were around from day one, & then after often played as enders or the odd slow spot, not that there were many of those during in the 70's though

Rather than any certain tunes I think it was probably more of a mix of expanding age & waistlines & the drying up of the uptempo mid 60's dance driven sounds that had been popular leading up to the moment.

If anything i guess it was returning to it's roots as opposed to moving on, & also i would say it was the popular clubs at the time, Stafford & 100 club that had more influence than any particular tune, as has been pointed out.

One thing though, i'm sure as hell glad they did because there certainly was some superb stuff missed in the first sweep !!

[Ian Dewhirst]

Am i correct in thinking that--Hey girl don,t bother me---was re-released on Probe in 1971 ish--purely due to demand from the burgeoning(growing Rod!) soul scene and could be called the "first Northern Soul Record to get to Number 1 in the pop charts---maybe i,m wrong (again)

Tony C.

Nope, you're dead right Tony. "Hey Girl Don't Bother Me" was the first Northern Soul No.1. Funnily enough, more of a beat ballad than a million-mile an hour stormer and it probably would have fitted nicely into the 80's stuff IMHO.........

Ian D

[jocko]

Just been reading through the thread & was thinking exactly the same. The type of tunes Harry was talking about were around from day one, & then after often played as enders or the odd slow spot, not that there were many of those during in the 70's though :

What are you saying here, tunes like Cecil Washington and John and Wierdest were played as enders?? Have you ever heard Cecil Washington??

Rather than any certain tunes I think it was probably more of a mix of expanding age & waistlines & the drying up of the uptempo mid 60's dance driven sounds that had been popular leading up to the moment.

If anything i guess it was returning to it's roots as opposed to moving on, & also i would say it was the popular clubs at the time, Stafford & 100 club that had more influence than any particular tune, as has been pointed out.

I think you will find the people who carried it on at that point were still relatively young and hungry, and the 80's had as many uptempo tunes as any other era, yes mid tempo rose in popularity but its a complete myth that is constantly repeated that all nighters then were full of mid tempo tune. Did you actually either read Harry's comments, the Stafford journey started in the last couple of years of Wigan as Harry is pointing out, something I totally agree with. So how was that returning to its roots, did you actually go anywhere in the 80's

I am absolutley gobsmacked at peoples inaccuracies on here,

Yes I am grumpy and full of the cold but the above is just a great example of re-writing history, a favoured occupation on here sometimes.

[Guest Bogue]

What are you saying here, tunes like Cecil Washington and John and Wierdest were played as enders?? Have you ever heard Cecil Washington??

I think you will find the people who carried it on at that point were still relatively young and hungry, and the 80's had as many uptempo tunes as any other era, yes mid tempo rose in popularity but its a complete myth that is constantly repeated that all nighters then were full of mid tempo tune. Did you actually either read Harry's comments, the Stafford journey started in the last couple of years of Wigan as Harry is pointing out, something I totally agree with. So how was that returning to its roots, did you actually go anywhere in the 80's

I am absolutley gobsmacked at peoples inaccuracies on here,

Yes I am grumpy and full of the cold but the above is just a great example of re-writing history, a favoured occupation on here sometimes.

Yes & also fond of afters too arn't you ! Took your time though ! probably because i haven't been on here much of late.

Ok hands up, just looked at 'John & the Wierdest' quote & the other general posts & thought he was talking about the slowing down of the tunes as well as the rarity.

Something i am gobsmacked at ? Point scoring a**s*****s like you who seem to think every comment is a competition in one upmanship !

Here's your gold medal by the way

[jocko]

Yes & also fond of afters too arn't you ! Took your time though ! probably because i haven't been on here much of late.

Ok hands up, just looked at 'John & the Wierdest' quote & the other general posts & thought he was talking about the slowing down of the tunes as well as the rarity.

Something i am gobsmacked at ? Point scoring a**s*****s like you who seem to think every comment is a competition in one upmanship !

Here's your gold medal by the way

Look back on your posts and find out how many times you are corrected. I think you will see more than a few

I cant stand people re-writing history or just talking rubbish about times they dont know about, particularly when its a time that is already misunderstood and misquoted by millions of morons don't comment on what you dont know about as if you do, and I will never be near your posts

If I am wrong answer my question whether you were there?

Goodnight.

[Mike]

Yes & also fond of afters too arn't you ! Took your time though ! probably because i haven't been on here much of late.

Ok hands up, just looked at 'John & the Wierdest' quote & the other general posts & thought he was talking about the slowing down of the tunes as well as the rarity.

Something i am gobsmacked at ? Point scoring a**s*****s like you who seem to think every comment is a competition in one upmanship !

Here's your gold medal by the way

no need for this

take it to pms, email, car park

[Guest]

didnt "back up train" al greens wheel classic make no1???

Not a prayer - noone was that wise back then! The Action label album of the same name's worth a few bob though.

His 1st SERIOUS chart action was Tired Of Being Alone in 71 I reckon. God bless Willie Mitchell's influence

[Guest Bogue]

Look back on your posts and find out how many times you are corrected. I think you will see more than a few

I cant stand people re-writing history or just talking rubbish about times they dont know about, particularly when its a time that is already misunderstood and misquoted by millions of morons don't comment on what you dont know about as if you do, and I will never be near your posts

If I am wrong answer my question whether you were there?

Goodnight.

Wasn't going to bother answering, but just in case you are still prancing around with a smug look on your fizzogg. The first thing i ever said on here was that i regretably drifted away, with a good few others i might add, when the Casino closed, & have reiterated it on many occasions ! So don't think you are some clever PI !

That said, i have spoken with many friends who were around & also read most of the books that have been published over the recent years, & was merely expressing an opinion of what i thought the thread starter was getting at.

Just because you were not at a place dosen't mean that you are banned from expressing an opinion on a subject does it ??

If that is the case i guess all the Historians out there had better give up the day job ! It's not allowed ! cause' Jocko says so !!

Be honest Jocko, it wouldn't have mattered what i had wrote would it !

[Harry Crosby]

Whilst not wishing to be involved in any bad feelings, i think there is a point for both parties here, in recent years maybe the music has changed to incorporate our progressing years, also the time i was refering to would have been late 70`s early 80`s i was only 19/20 at that time, what i was trying to nail down wich records in your opinion changed the scene from the fast uptempo driving sound to the more mid tempo sound that began to shape the scene through the eighties at such places as stafford and so on, as i said earlier in this topic its a hard one to word correctly

[Guest Bogue]

Whilst not wishing to be involved in any bad feelings, i think there is a point for both parties here, in recent years maybe the music has changed to incorporate our progressing years, also the time i was refering to would have been late 70`s early 80`s i was only 19/20 at that time, what i was trying to nail down wich records in your opinion changed the scene from the fast uptempo driving sound to the more mid tempo sound that began to shape the scene through the eighties at such places as stafford and so on, as i said earlier in this topic its a hard one to word correctly

Thanks for that Harry So perhaps i'm not the dur dur thicko that professor ( oh god have i spelt that wrong) that Jocko & his interlektuel ( or is it intellectual) cronies would like to portray.

Only perhaps mind !!

Back to one of last nights put downs about not having heard 'Cecil Washington' , was actualy around when it was starting to get played & remember my thoughts at the time being "we must be getting close to the end of the barrell ! " Still not one of my favourites ! but not that bad !

Edited December 30, 2007 by Bogue

[jocko]

Wasn't going to bother answering, but just in case you are still prancing around with a smug look on your fizzogg. The first thing i ever said on here was that i regretably drifted away, with a good few others i might add, when the Casino closed, & have reiterated it on many occasions ! So don't think you are some clever PI !

That said, i have spoken with many friends who were around & also read most of the books that have been published over the recent years, & was merely expressing an opinion of what i thought the thread starter was getting at.

Just because you were not at a place dosen't mean that you are banned from expressing an opinion on a subject does it ??

If that is the case i guess all the Historians out there had better give up the day job ! It's not allowed ! cause' Jocko says so !!

Be honest Jocko, it wouldn't have mattered what i had wrote would it !

You have some misguided conception I am getting at you personally, I am getting at your misinformation, my thoughts on you personally have nothing to do with this, I repeat again I dislike intensely people completely changing and misquoting history, a common occurence on here.

Historians generally do good research and generally base it on facts, which books exactly did you read about this period, my understanding is there are none. If you look again at original point I asked you to clarify points.

I repeat look at the times you have corrected yourself on here, generally I pull any one up that I feel is completely getting that era wrong, its an era I care about, although as someone who was far more relevant to that era than I am once said to me when discussing it, let them pretend all they want on the internet, it doesn't change what we know, maybe I need to accept that. There is a huge difference between His Story and History to misquote someone much more clever than I .

As always you do not even consider your ignorance you just blast off personnally, I think people have had enough of us taking away from what was a very good question. If you want to say more follow Mikes suggestion.

[Ady Croasdell]

Just to clear up any 100 Club/Stafford misconceptions. The original 6TS nights were very much 60s Mod Soul nights as inspired by original mod Randy Cozens and some great London based soul DJs who knew their stuff. So we played mid-tempo, R&B, Latin influenced and cool mid tempo numbers out of choice, not because we had run out of stompers. They were evening nights with beer as opposed to nighters with gear and the mix was brilliant.

When we changed to nighters out of necessity, we reverted to a more Northern formula to match the new hours, after a few years the scene had stagnated somewhat and the newies of Stafford revitalised everything. Being more of a soul fan than a Northern fan, I personally took the beat ballad, Latin and R&B type records and added them to my play list. We kept the classic dance style records but personally i didn't go for the manic dancers like She's Fire that some of the Stafford crowd liked (I'd stopped taking doobs by then!). The master tape discoveries from Scepter Wand and RCA etc, meant we could play great new discoveries like Magic Touch, Torture, Ooh It Hurts Me in the classic uptempo style but could also spin What's With This Loneliness, Willie Kendrick's She'll Be Leaving You and The TKOs Make Up Your Mind.

So we went mid-tempo at times out of choice not necessity and still played brilliant new classic stompers. A case in point was me swapping Ernestine Eady with Butch for Cleveland Robinson Love Is A Trap. Bad economic sense but I don't regret it and played Cleveland much more than I would have Ernestine Eady because I love one and am indifferent to t'other.

[Kevinkent]

Whilst not wishing to be involved in any bad feelings, i think there is a point for both parties here, in recent years maybe the music has changed to incorporate our progressing years, also the time i was refering to would have been late 70`s early 80`s i was only 19/20 at that time, what i was trying to nail down wich records in your opinion changed the scene from the fast uptempo driving sound to the more mid tempo sound that began to shape the scene through the eighties at such places as stafford and so on, as i said earlier in this topic its a hard one to word correctly

Well it looks like Chalky read you correctly and I got it wrong as usual!

Thanks for starting off what has turned out to be a very nice little thread, and in the main a very friendly one too.

I'm still disgruntled about the Tams being reissued though , but it was a long time ago - a whole new generation has found the scene and I might self indulge and play it out. Hey, even I can dance to it!

-Kev.

[Guest Bogue]

You have some misguided conception I am getting at you personally, I am getting at your misinformation, my thoughts on you personally have nothing to do with this, I repeat again I dislike intensely people completely changing and misquoting history, a common occurence on here.

Historians generally do good research and generally base it on facts, which books exactly did you read about this period, my understanding is there are none. If you look again at original point I asked you to clarify points.

I repeat look at the times you have corrected yourself on here, generally I pull any one up that I feel is completely getting that era wrong, its an era I care about, although as someone who was far more relevant to that era than I am once said to me when discussing it, let them pretend all they want on the internet, it doesn't change what we know, maybe I need to accept that. There is a huge difference between His Story and History to misquote someone much more clever than I .

As always you do not even consider your ignorance you just blast off personnally, I think people have had enough of us taking away from what was a very good question. If you want to say more follow Mikes suggestion.

So why didn't you just answer the question in a general way as opposed to the put downs that you slung my way then Jocko ?

Sorry mate, this post just smacks of damage limitation to me ! But if you want to pm feel free.

Just to clear up any 100 Club/Stafford misconceptions. The original 6TS nights were very much 60s Mod Soul nights as inspired by original mod Randy Cozens and some great London based soul DJs who knew their stuff. So we played mid-tempo, R&B, Latin influenced and cool mid tempo numbers out of choice, not because we had run out of stompers. They were evening nights with beer as opposed to nighters with gear and the mix was brilliant.

When we changed to nighters out of necessity, we reverted to a more Northern formula to match the new hours, after a few years the scene had stagnated somewhat and the newies of Stafford revitalised everything. Being more of a soul fan than a Northern fan, I personally took the beat ballad, Latin and R&B type records and added them to my play list. We kept the classic dance style records but personally i didn't go for the manic dancers like She's Fire that some of the Stafford crowd liked (I'd stopped taking doobs by then!). The master tape discoveries from Scepter Wand and RCA etc, meant we could play great new discoveries like Magic Touch, Torture, Ooh It Hurts Me in the classic uptempo style but could also spin What's With This Loneliness, Willie Kendrick's She'll Be Leaving You and The TKOs Make Up Your Mind.

So we went mid-tempo at times out of choice not necessity and still played brilliant new classic stompers. A case in point was me swapping Ernestine Eady with Butch for Cleveland Robinson Love Is A Trap. Bad economic sense but I don't regret it and played Cleveland much more than I would have Ernestine Eady because I love one and am indifferent to t'other.

Not for one minute suggesting that the drying up of new tunes with the 'typical' Northern sound was the main factor & not for one minute questioning your choice, i for one am glad you did bring these type of tunes to the fore !

But would you agree that it did have some effect on the scene in general at the time ? & although the faster tunes you mention + others of similar ilk were found they were much harder to source than the mid temp & R&B sounds that had been so overlooked by the 'need for speed' era ? Which at first filled the gap for the people who craved new rareities above anything else & eventually changed their tastes almost completely ?

[Ady Croasdell]

Not for one minute suggesting that the drying up of new tunes with the 'typical' Northern sound was the main factor & not for one minute questioning your choice, i for one am glad you did bring these type of tunes to the fore !

But would you agree that it did have some effect on the scene in general at the time ? & although the faster tunes you mention + others of similar ilk were found they were much harder to source than the mid temp & R&B sounds that had been so overlooked by the 'need for speed' era ? Which at first filled the gap for the people who craved new rareities above anything else & eventually changed their tastes almost completely ?

If we'd been finding a constant stream of If That's What You Wanted, Key To My Happiness and Agent O O Soul we might not have gone so far down that road, but I think the scene needed a variation in black music styles about that time to make it interesting and vital, so with our roots I think we would have gone down that path anyway. Records like Johnny Maestro weren't that easy to find.

[jocko]

So why didn't you just answer the question in a general way as opposed to the put downs that you slung my way then Jocko ?

Sorry mate, this post just smacks of damage limitation to me ! But if you want to pm feel free.

I did answer the question, with one line, and trust me I am not on damage limitation, my personal views on you are much worse than I am expressing, I just don't do personal insults on here, don't see the need. For the last time they are not put downs, they are showing where you are spouting rubbish off as history, listen to Ady, he was there!

[Harry Crosby]

Just to clear up any 100 Club/Stafford misconceptions. The original 6TS nights were very much 60s Mod Soul nights as inspired by original mod Randy Cozens and some great London based soul DJs who knew their stuff. So we played mid-tempo, R&B, Latin influenced and cool mid tempo numbers out of choice, not because we had run out of stompers. They were evening nights with beer as opposed to nighters with gear and the mix was brilliant.

When we changed to nighters out of necessity, we reverted to a more Northern formula to match the new hours, after a few years the scene had stagnated somewhat and the newies of Stafford revitalised everything. Being more of a soul fan than a Northern fan, I personally took the beat ballad, Latin and R&B type records and added them to my play list. We kept the classic dance style records but personally i didn't go for the manic dancers like She's Fire that some of the Stafford crowd liked (I'd stopped taking doobs by then!). The master tape discoveries from Scepter Wand and RCA etc, meant we could play great new discoveries like Magic Touch, Torture, Ooh It Hurts Me in the classic uptempo style but could also spin What's With This Loneliness, Willie Kendrick's She'll Be Leaving You and The TKOs Make Up Your Mind.

So we went mid-tempo at times out of choice not necessity and still played brilliant new classic stompers. A case in point was me swapping Ernestine Eady with Butch for Cleveland Robinson Love Is A Trap. Bad economic sense but I don't regret it and played Cleveland much more than I would have Ernestine Eady because I love one and am indifferent to t'other.

Adey i take my hat off to you and other promoters who took the scene by the scruff of the neck when it really needed it, Can`t imagine the feelings when for the first time you heard some of those unreleased tracks, Its through the hard work of promtors with such aforsight that imho we have such a healthy scene today

[Kevinkent]

Yes I am grumpy and full of the cold but ...

For a cold, I recommend going to bed with a hot toddy.

It'll do you more good than being on here

-Kev.

[Guest Bogue]

I did answer the question, with one line, and trust me I am not on damage limitation, my personal views on you are much worse than I am expressing, I just don't do personal insults on here, don't see the need. For the last time they are not put downs, they are showing where you are spouting rubbish off as history, listen to Ady, he was there!

The feeling is mutual Jocko, rest assured

See you are at it again ! I mearly asked Ady a question & listened to his reply, whereas you are trying desperatly to put a different spin on it !!

Let me say again just so you get it, I'M GLAD THEY HAD THE FORSIGHT OR TASTE OR WHATEVER !!!!!! just intrigued as to whether certain factors influenced it. Which is what the thread starter was asking too !

Thats what a forum does Jocko, ask questions & offer opinions !

& dress it up however you like , your posts are directed at me & you really care nothing of the original question ! So how about giving it a rest eh ?

[Chalky]

Not for one minute suggesting that the drying up of new tunes with the 'typical' Northern sound was the main factor & not for one minute questioning your choice, i for one am glad you did bring these type of tunes to the fore !

But would you agree that it did have some effect on the scene in general at the time ? & although the faster tunes you mention + others of similar ilk were found they were much harder to source than the mid temp & R&B sounds that had been so overlooked by the 'need for speed' era ? Which at first filled the gap for the people who craved new rareities above anything else & eventually changed their tastes almost completely ?

But the tunes weren't drying! they were still being found in abundance throughout the 80s. Jock has already said that what you are getting at is a common and often misguided conception by those like you who weren't there so why persist along the lines that this wasn't the case? Yes beat ballads and mid tempo were given a platform they were previously denied and rightly so but the uptempo numbers outweighed the mid tempo and beat ballads.

Edited December 30, 2007 by chalky

[Mark Bicknell]

I started this soul journey back in 1976 and many people around my age 47 now started their involvement around that time with a few exceptions most of us have been around this scene for thirty plus years, for me 1976 - 1980/81 was a huge learning curve simply taking it all in, I wager when we all first started out we did'nt know a Detroit record from a Chicago one? were very much guided and influenced by the top DJ's of the day, as time passed my knowledge and desire to collect the records grew so from my own personal perspective the rare soul scene was born around 1980/81, the desire to chase records, to hear new records was paramount and something I've alway's thought the scene was about? Stafford was a huge influence to many people and certainly opened my ears to some wonderful records which have now become classics and certainly cemented the style and quality of records I collect and desire, Sam Fletcher, Sam Dees, Freddie Houston, Empires, Larry Davis etc. etc. the list is endless, progression of the scenes music is above all the single most important fundemental point of it all to me, thank the Lord Ady discovered all those wonderful masters, thank the Lord Keb, Guy, Pat, Dave did their thing at Stafford and Richard at Wigan before them, to Mr Levine and Mr Curtis and all the maverick DJ's and collectors who have all done their bit to further the enjoyment and entertainment for everyone connected to this scene of ours.

Without question the 80's was IMO the most influential decade musically on the scene, all styles and tempos were given the chance to shine and be enjoyed and collected oh and for what it's worth it matters very little to me what tempo a record is just as long as it's soulful, yes the scene is dance floor driven but that does not mean that we should dismiss a gut wrenching slab of down tempo emotion just because 'Sammy Stomper' don't like it or he simply does not get it?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Mark Bicknell

[Guest Bogue]

But the tunes weren't drying! they were still being found in abundance throughout the 80s. Jock has already said that what you are getting at is a common and often misguided conception by those like you who weren't there so why persist along the lines that this wasn't the case? Yes beat ballads and mid tempo were given a platform they were previously denied and rightly so but the uptempo numbers outweighed the mid tempo and beat ballads.

Maybe you are right Chalky, i don't know ? My take was that it gradualy turned the other way round & that the faster numbers were either fast gritty R&B type or 70's influenced as oposed to the sound that we had percieved to have been Northern in the 70's, & that's the opinion i suggested, just a personal opinion.

Though i would say that the compilations & writings that represent that era appear to back me up, though perhaps all those people weren't there either ?

Just for the record Chalky, i had a bit of a verbal spat with Jocko in freebasing over something , can't even remember what now ? & it was just an opertunity for him to have another dig, he had no need to reply in the manner he did so don't get thinking it was the subject matter that really furrowed his brow, as much as he would love you to believe it

[Bazza]

I started this soul journey back in 1976

Without question the 80's was IMO the most influential decade musically on the scene, all styles and tempos were given the chance to shine

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Well, im getting to be a bit of an old codger, I started my journey closer to 40 years ago, at the the kids Disco at Nottm palais, and they played every thing, Reggae Ska club soul R&B ..the lot, I had'nt a clue what any of it was, just new I loved it ,all of it ,suppose I was 13 or 14....even now I still love it all ,not just soul ,not just R&B...I am very open minded to it all ......apart from modern stuff ,what im getting at in the very early days of the scene every thing was played,I wish it was these days, perhaps it would not be getting as boring and old hat as it sometimes does

Bazza

[Guest Bogue]

I started this soul journey back in 1976 and many people around my age 47 now started their involvement around that time with a few exceptions most of us have been around this scene for thirty plus years, for me 1976 - 1980/81 was a huge learning curve simply taking it all in, I wager when we all first started out we did'nt know a Detroit record from a Chicago one? were very much guided and influenced by the top DJ's of the day, as time passed my knowledge and desire to collect the records grew so from my own personal perspective the rare soul scene was born around 1980/81, the desire to chase records, to hear new records was paramount and something I've alway's thought the scene was about? Stafford was a huge influence to many people and certainly opened my ears to some wonderful records which have now become classics and certainly cemented the style and quality of records I collect and desire, Sam Fletcher, Sam Dees, Freddie Houston, Empires, Larry Davis etc. etc. the list is endless, progression of the scenes music is above all the single most important fundemental point of it all to me, thank the Lord Ady discovered all those wonderful masters, thank the Lord Keb, Guy, Pat, Dave did their thing at Stafford and Richard at Wigan before them, to Mr Levine and Mr Curtis and all the maverick DJ's and collectors who have all done their bit to further the enjoyment and entertainment for everyone connected to this scene of ours.

Without question the 80's was IMO the most influential decade musically on the scene, all styles and tempos were given the chance to shine and be enjoyed and collected oh and for what it's worth it matters very little to me what tempo a record is just as long as it's soulful, yes the scene is dance floor driven but that does not mean that we should dismiss a gut wrenching slab of down tempo emotion just because 'Sammy Stomper' don't like it or he simply does not get it?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Amen to that one Mark

& i think what you say about the 80's being the most influential is very true

Apart from the early days it did for a time in the 70's become i guess a little too easy to churn out what the dance floor required as the pond was still large & full (tin hat on for the guys who did the finding )

Whereas in the 80's it became (well, i think, & imo again, before i am once more castigated) much harder to find those type of tunes that had previously pleased the dance floor, hence my earlier drying up reference. & so i think, took a lot more skill & courage from the DJ's & promotors

On coming back & finding that the slower & R&B tunes were now de-rigour was fantastic ! Could now talk about these type of records without getting funny looks

[Chalky]

Maybe you are right Chalky, i don't know ? My take was that it gradualy turned the other way round & that the faster numbers were either fast gritty R&B type or 70's influenced as oposed to the sound that we had percieved to have been Northern in the 70's, & that's the opinion i suggested, just a personal opinion.

Everything was given it's chance, to me how it should be, blinkers removed and if a record was good enough it got played if not it was discarded, often after just a few plays. But uptempo soul was played and found in abundance not just the grittier stuff either. It wasn't really until early mid 90's and the return of those who missed the 80's that everything went into reverse gear (IMHO).

Regardless of your disagreement with Jock and what was said between you, on this subject I happen to agree with what he says.

Edited December 30, 2007 by chalky