Amy Winehouse - Live

[Tomangoes]

Just watching Channel T4, with Amy Winehouse (recorded live concert).

I dont know what to make of this as every other record is almost playable at an all nighter. Shut your eyes and you think you are listening to a great jazz influenced soulstress.

Theres got to be somebody in the background who is feeding her THE NORTHERN SOUL INFLUENCE.

Anybody agree or know more???

Ed

[Maria O]

Theres got to be somebody in the background who is feeding her THE NORTHERN SOUL INFLUENCE.

I'm not a fan, but my man is - and he had her cd on in his car this week. Just about every song had me saying "I'm surprised Motown hasn't sued them".

I have a dreadful habit of hearing another record in the song that's playing and one in particular had the background of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", plus a few Supreme numbers were obvious background bits on others. I was amazed they had got away with it.

Not sure about the "Northern Soul" tag though - I'm more confused than ever on what that means

but agree about closing your eyes to watch the poor dear

m

[Sean Hampsey]

Just watching Channel T4, with Amy Winehouse (recorded live concert).

I dont know what to make of this as every other record is almost playable at an all nighter. Shut your eyes and you think you are listening to a great jazz influenced soulstress.

Theres got to be somebody in the background who is feeding her THE NORTHERN SOUL INFLUENCE.

Anybody agree or know more???

Ed

Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings.

https://www.myspace.com/sharonjonesandthedapkings

[pikeys dog]

Just switched on and was presented with the most out of tune caterwauling...

[Zed1]

Just watching Channel T4, with Amy Winehouse (recorded live concert).

I dont know what to make of this as every other record is almost playable at an all nighter. Shut your eyes and you think you are listening to a great jazz influenced soulstress.

Theres got to be somebody in the background who is feeding her THE NORTHERN SOUL INFLUENCE.

Anybody agree or know more???

Ed

Well I would agree anyway...

Change the lyric's a little and add a few crackles and hisses and 'Rehab' or 'Valerie' for Eg would have been a monster at any of the Big 70's venue's..

Recall the first time I heard her and for the first few lines thought it was Etta James......... fantastic voice, IMHO of course..

Edited December 27, 2007 by Teapot

[Tomangoes]

Thanks Teapot

It is about opinion, and the point I was making was more about the type of sound Ami 'often' makes, not always, but often.

For example I am sure if Ami reworked sounds like 7 day fool, It would be interesting, but the point was who is feeding her the stuff she has already done, because a whole bunch of it sounds Northern influenced, Cat Whaling or not. (Sorry IMO, to be PC).

Ed

Edited December 27, 2007 by tomangoes

[Sean Hampsey]

the point was who is feeding her the stuff she has already done, because a whole bunch of it sounds Northern influenced

Ed

Ms Winehouse is (by her own admission) heavily influenced by Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings.

Sharon Jones Band (The Dap-Kings) backed her on her US tour - the 12 coast-to-coast US shows that helped propel the Winehouse album into the US Top 10 in its first week.

Think Soul Sourcers should seriously check out the 'source of the soul' on

https://www.myspace.com/sharonjonesandthedapkings

Sean

[Cunnie]

Totally with you r/e Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings Sean

Can't beleive a UK promoter ain't had the balls to get them booked at one of the major soul events over here while they're still in their prime.

Just take an unbiased listen to Tell Me & Keep On Looking off the current 100 Days album on the link below.

Wouldn't sound out of place alongside some of the big hitting nighter stuff that gets played.

https://www.amazon.com/Days-Nights-Sharon-J...s/dp/B000UO75AY

As for Whinehouse (spelling intended) give me Joss Stone any day of the week & keep an eye on the 2007 thread in Media to hear why.

Edited December 28, 2007 by CUNNIE

[Sebastian]

I have a dreadful habit of hearing another record in the song that's playing and one in particular had the background of "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". I was amazed they had got away with it.

Ashord/Simpson/Winehouse are credited as writers for the "Tears Dry On Their Own" track, the one which sounds a whole lot like "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". So no fishy business going on.

Edited December 27, 2007 by Sebastian

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ms Winehouse is (by her own admission) heavily influenced by Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings.

Sharon Jones Band (The Dap-Kings) backed her on her US tour - the 12 coast-to-coast US shows that helped propel the Winehouse album into the US Top 10 in its first week.

Think Soul Sourcers should seriously check out the 'source of the soul' on

https://www.myspace.com/sharonjonesandthedapkings

Sean

Mark Ronson, her producer, I believe is the one who specifically sought out the Dap-Kings to play on her album.

He's very well-versed in 60's Soul and Motown and had a tremendous musical education via his parents who were artists themselves.

For my money, one of the best all-round albums I've heard in years. "Tears Dry On Their Own" is my favourite track of the year by a long margin in any catergory. One of the greatest songs I've ever heard actually - if Aretha ever covers it, I'll die a happy man.........

Ian D

[Guest Juddy]

Mark Ronson, her producer, I believe is the one who specifically sought out the Dap-Kings to play on her album.

He's very well-versed in 60's Soul and Motown and had a tremendous musical education via his parents who were artists themselves.

For my money, one of the best all-round albums I've heard in years. "Tears Dry On Their Own" is my favourite track of the year by a long margin in any catergory. One of the greatest songs I've ever heard actually - if Aretha ever covers it, I'll die a happy man.........

Ian D

Agreed on the Mark Ronson tip. He's one of those producers who knows what he's able to do, and knows when to call in the big guns, like Sugarman and the Dap-King posse.

I've played "Valerie" out - it's unreleased in the states (as far as I know??) - with great response. Although nobody thinks it's a 1966 recording, like Sharon Jones' "Genuine," which people still think is a 1969 recording despite me playing it around town for several YEARS now...

SJ & Dap-Kings might be outta reach of a northern even now that they've gone huge - they're drawing 500+ in the States these days as a headliner; more at festivals. My band opened for 'em in Pittsburgh in front of a whopping 45 folks... our timing never was right...

juddy

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ashord/Simpson/Winehouse are credited as writers for the "Tears Dry On Their Own" track, the one which sounds a whole lot like "Ain't No Mountain High Enough". So no fishy business going on.

The chord changes sound more like a slowed-down version of "Love You Baby" - Eddie Parker to these ears! Also coincidentaly written by another Ashford - Jack in this case!

Ian D

[Guest geordiebri]

ain't no mountain in rehab?

">

[Sean Hampsey]

Totally with you r/e Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings Sean

Can't beleive a UK promoter ain't had the balls to get them booked at one of the major soul events over here while they're still in their prime.

Don't be silly Martin,

Need to wait another 20 years for the artist to be near Bankrupt and almost lose their voices before that happens.

Can't believe the column inches on this forum during the past 12 months Re: Winehouse... with hardly a murmer on real deal Soul artists, doing superb things right now! (Sharon Jones, Donnie Ray, Ryan Shaw, Charlie Jones, Floyd Taylor etc.).

Just plain weird!

Will be worth logging on in 2020 to see these artists getting 'discovered'.

[Sunnysoul]

Don't be silly Martin,

Need to wait another 20 years for the artist to be near Bankrupt and almost lose their voices before that happens.

Can't believe the column inches on this forum during the past 12 months Re: Winehouse... with hardly a murmer on real deal Soul artists, doing superb things right now! (Sharon Jones, Donnie Ray, Ryan Shaw, Charlie Jones, Floyd Taylor etc.).

Just plain weird!

Will be worth logging on in 2020 to see these artists getting 'discovered'.

Well done Sean for bringing some sanity to the discussion.

I really like what Amy Winehouse does, but what people need to realise is that it's not soul music. She is a very good commercial pop artiste in the same fashion as Kylie Minogue or Madonna. But to mention her in the same breath as Etta James

As Sean says, there are others artists who are the real deal who deserve far more attention on these pages !

You want real Soul music? Check out that Sam Dees clip on the other thread !

[Guest Dante]

Well done Sean for bringing some sanity to the discussion.

I really like what Amy Winehouse does, but what people need to realise is that it's not soul music. She is a very good commercial pop artiste in the same fashion as Kylie Minogue or Madonna. But to mention her in the same breath as Etta James

As Sean says, there are others artists who are the real deal who deserve far more attention on these pages !

You want real Soul music? Check out that Sam Dees clip on the other thread !

I'm so very sorry. I haven't been enlightened so, can you tell me what is soul and what isn't?

Why Sam Dees is soul and Amy Winehouse isn't? Because one is more black, or because it seems he's suffering more while he's singing, or because he lived in the 60s?????

I'm not defending anyone, or saying there aren't other soul artists deserving recognition at least on the forum. I just need to be taught a little, as I'm a begginer in the mysterious world of soul music...

Cheers from Mexico.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I'm so very sorry. I haven't been enlightened so, can you tell me what is soul and what isn't?

Why Sam Dees is soul and Amy Winehouse isn't? Because one is more black, or because it seems he's suffering more while he's singing, or because he lived in the 60s?????

I'm not defending anyone, or saying there aren't other soul artists deserving recognition at least on the forum. I just need to be taught a little, as I'm a begginer in the mysterious world of soul music...

Cheers from Mexico.

The reason that she is not a soul artiste, is because neither she nor her music has any soul - simple as that. Colour doesn't (and never has) come into it. I do hate it when people raise the 'Is it becuse I'm white?" argument, it's so unnecessary....

[Guest Dante]

The reason that she is not a soul artiste, is because neither she nor her music has any soul - simple as that. Colour doesn't (and never has) come into it. I do hate it when people raise the 'Is it becuse I'm white?" argument, it's so unnecessary....

I know it's not about the color, but your explaination is exactly the thing I don't understand. Saying a record has or hasn't soul is the more subjective thing in history. So if we stick to your definition of soul music I really don't think anyone can say "people should understand that is not soul music". Maybe for someone, country & western is the most soulful music ever

Edited December 28, 2007 by Dante

[Sunnysoul]

The reason that she is not a soul artiste, is because neither she nor her music has any soul - simple as that. Colour doesn't (and never has) come into it. I do hate it when people raise the 'Is it becuse I'm white?" argument, it's so unnecessary....

Thanks Tone, you saved me some extra work on the keys !

As I said before, what Amy does is really nice, I genuinely like her music, the only thing is, it's just not soul music ! Amy is no more "soul" than Paul Weller or Paul Young or Jo Boxers or the Untouchables ! In other words, Amy is pop music pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less. But Sharon Jones is soul, not necessarily because of the colour of her skin, but because Sharon has "paid her dues" , she has actually lived soul music and soul culture !!!

I'm afraid what people really need to realise is that Soul Music - for all intents and purposes - is now a defunct music form.

As a living, breathing music form - it is dead. In the same way that Blues and Jazz as living musical forms died too.

Soul Music has in fact effectively been dead since the mid 80's. Of course, it didn't suddenly die on one particular day but it was brought about due to a combination of social, cultural, economic and musical (industry) factors in the US over a period of years leading into the 80's.

If you want to read about the demise of Soul Music, I recommend that you all read US music journo Nelson George's excellent book entitled "The Death of Rhythm and Blues". He actually wrote that book back in the 80's and, for example, lamented the fact that multinationals like CBS were failing to appreciate their own hit making artists like Johnny Taylor and Tyrone Davis and going for the easy dollar. The book details all the factors that led to the death of Soul Music and Soul Culture.

Of course Soul Music is not completely dead however, the Soul Music torch has been carried on to a diminishing degree in small pockets of the US since the 80's by elder statesmen such as Bobby Womack and the late Johnny Taylor as well as the kind of artists that Sean Hampsey referred to in his earlier post, and also artists of the genre that we all used to refer to as "Real Soul" or "Indie Soul" artists through the 80's & 90's.

But Amy Winehouse ? Or tracks like "Tribute To Betty" ? Or what people constantly have constantly referred to for 20 years as "soulful house" ??? Please !!! Just because a black girl wails over a dirge like 120 bpm computerised beat without chord changes does not make it soul ... or even soulful ! As I say , I am not in any way dismissing Amy Winehouse or house music as good music, they are worthwhile ... just don't confuse them with Soul Music !

When people ask what is Soul Music, I usually recommend that they read Barney Hoskin's excellent book "Say It One More Time For The Broken Hearted". Barney perfectly encapsulates the various factors that led to the genesis of Soul Music.

What is really sad though is when people bandy the word "soul" about for every two bit pop artist as if the word "soul" is some worn out football to be kicked against the wall a million times. Or when people use the old stereotypical references - as Tony referred to above - like, is it about being "black or white" or, is soul just a "feeling" ....

Soul Music is in fact actually all about specific time, people and places. It is about Motown and Memphis and Chicago and Philly ... it is about the Masqueraders and the Precisions and Bill Brandon and Betty Harris .. it is about Jerry Ragavoy and Van McCoy and Allen Toussaint and Gamble and Huff ... it is about James Jamerson and Bobby Eli and James Gadson ... and Hitsville and Fame and Muscle Shoals. And it is everything else and in between everything that we here on Soul Source for the most part enthusiastically rave about as if it was a life long love affair.

Edited December 28, 2007 by sunnysoul

[Guest]

Don't be silly Martin,

Need to wait another 20 years for the artist to be near Bankrupt and almost lose their voices before that happens.

Can't believe the column inches on this forum during the past 12 months Re: Winehouse... with hardly a murmer on real deal Soul artists, doing superb things right now! (Sharon Jones, Donnie Ray, Ryan Shaw, Charlie Jones, Floyd Taylor etc.).

Just plain weird!

Will be worth logging on in 2020 to see these artists getting 'discovered'.

Bravo Sean ! ......

Like you , I am amazed at the " coverage " AW has been given on SS , whilst others with far more creditable output are blatently overlooked .......

As you again state , the dearth of acknowledgement for the artists you name and others , is criminal : The listening of / to Sharon Jones , if I had my way , would be made compulsary in every household .......

As for logging on in 2020 , I sincerely hope I am around to do so ......

Malc Burton

[Catriona]

Of course Soul Music is not completely dead however, the Soul Music torch has been carried on to a diminishing degree in small pockets of the US since the 80's by elder statesmen such as Bobby Womack and the late Johnny Taylor as well as the kind of artists that Sean Hampsey referred to in his earlier post, and also artists of the genre that we all used to refer to as "Real Soul" or "Indie Soul" artists through the 80's & 90's.

That s an interesting statement to make when I m struggling to keep up with all the new soul that s coming out, and that I would describe as proper soul music rather than soulful house or any other genre. Today I ve got Anthony Hamilton, Ledisi and Chaka Khan for the car. All newish albums (2007) . I would argue that it s a demise in the music industry as we know it rather than soul music .

[Guest Dante]

Thanks Tone, you saved me some extra work on the keys !

As I said before, what Amy does is really nice, I genuinely like her music, the only thing is, it's just not soul music ! Amy is no more "soul" than Paul Weller or Paul Young or Jo Boxers or the Untouchables ! In other words, Amy is pop music pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less. But Sharon Jones is soul, not necessarily because of the colour of her skin, but because Sharon has "paid her dues" , she has actually lived soul music and soul culture !!!

I'm afraid what people really need to realise is that Soul Music - for all intents and purposes - is now a defunct music form.

As a living, breathing music form - it is dead. In the same way that Blues and Jazz as living musical forms died too.

Soul Music has in fact effectively been dead since the mid 80's. Of course, it didn't suddenly die on one particular day but it was brought about due to a combination of social, cultural, economic and musical (industry) factors in the US over a period of years leading into the 80's.

If you want to read about the demise of Soul Music, I recommend that you all read US music journo Nelson George's excellent book entitled "The Death of Rhythm and Blues". He actually wrote that book back in the 80's and, for example, lamented the fact that multinationals like CBS were failing to appreciate their own hit making artists like Johnny Taylor and Tyrone Davis and going for the easy dollar. The book details all the factors that led to the death of Soul Music and Soul Culture.

Of course Soul Music is not completely dead however, the Soul Music torch has been carried on to a diminishing degree in small pockets of the US since the 80's by elder statesmen such as Bobby Womack and the late Johnny Taylor as well as the kind of artists that Sean Hampsey referred to in his earlier post, and also artists of the genre that we all used to refer to as "Real Soul" or "Indie Soul" artists through the 80's & 90's.

But Amy Winehouse ? Or tracks like "Tribute To Betty" ? Or what people constantly have constantly referred to for 20 years as "soulful house" ??? Please !!! Just because a black girl wails over a dirge like 120 bpm computerised beat without chord changes does not make it soul ... or even soulful ! As I say , I am not in any way dismissing Amy Winehouse or house music as good music, they are worthwhile ... just don't confuse them with Soul Music !

When people ask what is Soul Music, I usually recommend that they read Barney Hoskin's excellent book "Say It One More Time For The Broken Hearted". Barney perfectly encapsulates the various factors that led to the genesis of Soul Music.

What is really sad though is when people bandy the word "soul" about for every two bit pop artist as if the word "soul" is some worn out football to be kicked against the wall a million times. Or when people use the old stereotypical references - as Tony referred to above - like, is it about being "black or white" or, is soul just a "feeling" ....

Soul Music is in fact actually all about specific time, people and places. It is about Motown and Memphis and Chicago and Philly ... it is about the Masqueraders and the Precisions and Bill Brandon and Betty Harris .. it is about Jerry Ragavoy and Van McCoy and Allen Toussaint and Gamble and Huff ... it is about James Jamerson and Bobby Eli and James Gadson ... and Hitsville and Fame and Muscle Shoals. And it is everything else and in between everything that we here on Soul Source for the most part enthusiastically rave about as if it was a life long love affair.

I think the colour comment I made was misunderstood, I said it exactly along with other stupid definitions of soul music. But, we can't deny the fact that soul music was born in black comunitties in the USA, and their social, economical and cultural situation was a main factor in the birth of soul, but thats other story...

I totally agree with you when you say soul music is dead, just as blues and jazz. Then I think we can take out a couple of conclussions: first, Amy Winehouse and Sharon Jones, both are pop artists with true soul influence and, in the best scenario, are revival soul artists, 'cause all the external influences that determined soul music can't be seen now. 2nd, yes, soul music is now death, but a lot of that external factors, specially the situation of the black working class communities are same in essence, but different in form. Therefore, I think that there have been musical movements that have the same general causes and objectives soul music once had. Early rap and, specially Public Enemy are a good example methinks. The essence is the same, the need of a community to be heard, and to express itself in its countercultural way. The form is different, while Diana Ross wanted to be accepted by the mainstream, Chuck D. just tell them to fcuk off

Cheers...

Edited December 28, 2007 by Dante

[Sunnysoul]

I think the colour comment I made was misunderstood, I said it exactly along with other stupid definitions of soul music. But, we can't deny the fact that soul music was born in black comunitties in the USA, and their social, economical and cultural situation was a main factor in the birth of soul, but thats other story...

I totally agree with you when you say soul music is dead, just as blues and jazz. Then I think we can take out a couple of conclussions: first, Amy Winehouse and Sharon Jones, both are pop artists with true soul influence and, in the best scenario, are revival soul artists, 'cause all the external influences that determined soul music can't be seen now. 2nd, yes, soul music is now death, but a lot of that external factors, specially the situation of the black working class communities are same in essence, but different in form. Therefore, I think that there have been musical movements that have the same general causes and objectives soul music once had. Early rap and, specially Public Enemy are a good example methinks. The essence is the same, the need of a community to be heard, and to express itself in its countercultural way. The form is different, while Diana Ross wanted to be accepted by the mainstream, Chuck D. just tell them to fcuk off

Cheers...

No no my friend, you are mistaken, even with the same musicians, Sharon Jones is a real deal soul artiste, Amy Winehouse is not !

[Guest outonthefloor]

Thanks Tone, you saved me some extra work on the keys !

As I said before, what Amy does is really nice, I genuinely like her music, the only thing is, it's just not soul music ! Amy is no more "soul" than Paul Weller or Paul Young or Jo Boxers or the Untouchables ! In other words, Amy is pop music pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less. But Sharon Jones is soul, not necessarily because of the colour of her skin, but because Sharon has "paid her dues" , she has actually lived soul music and soul culture !!!

I'm afraid what people really need to realise is that Soul Music - for all intents and purposes - is now a defunct music form.

As a living, breathing music form - it is dead. In the same way that Blues and Jazz as living musical forms died too.

Soul Music has in fact effectively been dead since the mid 80's. Of course, it didn't suddenly die on one particular day but it was brought about due to a combination of social, cultural, economic and musical (industry) factors in the US over a period of years leading into the 80's.

If you want to read about the demise of Soul Music, I recommend that you all read US music journo Nelson George's excellent book entitled "The Death of Rhythm and Blues". He actually wrote that book back in the 80's and, for example, lamented the fact that multinationals like CBS were failing to appreciate their own hit making artists like Johnny Taylor and Tyrone Davis and going for the easy dollar. The book details all the factors that led to the death of Soul Music and Soul Culture.

Of course Soul Music is not completely dead however, the Soul Music torch has been carried on to a diminishing degree in small pockets of the US since the 80's by elder statesmen such as Bobby Womack and the late Johnny Taylor as well as the kind of artists that Sean Hampsey referred to in his earlier post, and also artists of the genre that we all used to refer to as "Real Soul" or "Indie Soul" artists through the 80's & 90's.

But Amy Winehouse ? Or tracks like "Tribute To Betty" ? Or what people constantly have constantly referred to for 20 years as "soulful house" ??? Please !!! Just because a black girl wails over a dirge like 120 bpm computerised beat without chord changes does not make it soul ... or even soulful ! As I say , I am not in any way dismissing Amy Winehouse or house music as good music, they are worthwhile ... just don't confuse them with Soul Music !

When people ask what is Soul Music, I usually recommend that they read Barney Hoskin's excellent book "Say It One More Time For The Broken Hearted". Barney perfectly encapsulates the various factors that led to the genesis of Soul Music.

What is really sad though is when people bandy the word "soul" about for every two bit pop artist as if the word "soul" is some worn out football to be kicked against the wall a million times. Or when people use the old stereotypical references - as Tony referred to above - like, is it about being "black or white" or, is soul just a "feeling" ....

Soul Music is in fact actually all about specific time, people and places. It is about Motown and Memphis and Chicago and Philly ... it is about the Masqueraders and the Precisions and Bill Brandon and Betty Harris .. it is about Jerry Ragavoy and Van McCoy and Allen Toussaint and Gamble and Huff ... it is about James Jamerson and Bobby Eli and James Gadson ... and Hitsville and Fame and Muscle Shoals. And it is everything else and in between everything that we here on Soul Source for the most part enthusiastically rave about as if it was a life long love affair.

Who died and made you King?

Just because u know how to use the underline key don't make you right!

I think u need a big "IMO" after all that lot!

[Supercorsa]

Only caught a glimpse of the show and having heard the worst version of Monkey Man in my life, decided to change channels.

[Guest kent soul club]

Who died and made you King?

Just because u know how to use the underline key don't make you right!

I think u need a big "IMO" after all that lot!

Erm, isn't putting IMO just being PC, it's obviously his opinion.

[Guest outonthefloor]

Erm, isn't putting IMO just being PC, it's obviously his opinion.

No Martin they are stating their opinion as fact thats my point

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Maybe for someone, country & western is the most soulful music ever

...For me, it is. Country music, that is, not "Western".

George Jones, for instance, wipes the floor with most artists that are touted on here as 'soulful'. And that's excatly my point, soul is not about a colour or, for that matter a genre.

I go back to what I said before - there may be a lot of contrivance in Amy Winehouse's music, but there is no obvious 'soul' (to these ears, at least), just a lot of American influence/plagiarism.

[Sean Hampsey]

Don't be silly Martin,

Need to wait another 20 years for the artist to be near Bankrupt and almost lose their voices before that happens.

Can't believe the column inches on this forum during the past 12 months Re: Winehouse... with hardly a murmer on real deal Soul artists, doing superb things right now! (Sharon Jones, Donnie Ray, Ryan Shaw, Charlie Jones, Floyd Taylor etc.).

Just plain weird!

Will be worth logging on in 2020 to see these artists getting 'discovered'.

To clarify, I didn't intend to add to the eternal 'what is Soul?' debate, merely intended to express a measure of bemusement as to how we in the UK (particularly on the 'Northern' scene) tend to ignore real Soul talent... while it's current.

Sure, we go well out of our way to heap adoration and appreciation on talented soul artists in retrospect, but rarely do we recognise it while it's right under our noses.

In some bizarre and twisted manner, wannabe's such as Winehouse / Paul Weller etc. are often lauded (particularly on these pages) as having some kind of 'Soul' credibility over their stateside contemporaries. Not too much wrong with either (IMO) but, come on, own up, how many Northern Soul fans have ever even heard of Floyd Taylor, Donnie Ray, Anthony Hamilton or Calvin Richardson never mind put their money into supporting the artist by buying their music... while it's still available .

The UK Soul scene has a meritous track record in giving struggling artists a brief moment in the spotlight, but often this comes far to late in their lives to make a difference... and sadly the likes of Winehouse will stick more up her nose in a month than some of the artists above will earn in an entire career.

Of course, the mere fact that she had a hit with 'Rehab' makes her a Journalists and PR mans dream. All standing by to come up with the latest headine as she publicly self destructs.

Perhaps one of our current Soul artists should make an album called "I Was Doomed to A Life at The Car Wash (Until The UK Discovered Me... Sooner Rather Than Later)".

I've said it many times on here already. There's some excellent music and some fabulous (authentic) Soul artists doing great things - right now - in the US.

Soul music fans should check 'em out now - that is unless we're all happy for history to keep on repeating itself.

Sean

[Guest]

...For me, it is. Country music, that is, not "Western".

George Jones, for instance, wipes the floor with most artists that are touted on here as 'soulful'. And that's excatly my point, soul is not about a colour or, for that matter a genre.

I go back to what I said before - there may be a lot of contrivance in Amy Winehouse's music, but there is no obvious 'soul' (to these ears, at least), just a lot of American influence/plagiarism.

Agree with most of what you say Tony......

Darrell Banks, Aretha, Edwin Starr, Levi Stubbs, Elvis, Pavarotti, Matt Monro, Van Morrison, Robert Palmer.

All the above have voices that come from exactly where it says on the "TIN"........THE SOUL!!

I personally think Ms Winehouse has a cracking soulful voice....and she is not the 1st to Quote: "stick more up her nose in a month than some of the artists above will earn in an entire career. "....Ruffin, Cooke, Jamerson, Gaye, Weston etc. Thats called having more money than brain cells!

Shaun.........I have Floyd`s "No Doubt" on CD......superb like his poppa!

What a good thread this is!!......argumentative but great!

All the best everyone!

Edited December 28, 2007 by Guest

[Kevinkent]

Thanks Tone, you saved me some extra work on the keys !

As I said before, what Amy does is really nice, I genuinely like her music, the only thing is, it's just not soul music ! Amy is no more "soul" than Paul Weller or Paul Young or Jo Boxers or the Untouchables ! In other words, Amy is pop music pure and simple, nothing more, nothing less. But Sharon Jones is soul, not necessarily because of the colour of her skin, but because Sharon has "paid her dues" , she has actually lived soul music and soul culture !!!

I'm afraid what people really need to realise is that Soul Music - for all intents and purposes - is now a defunct music form.

As a living, breathing music form - it is dead. In the same way that Blues and Jazz as living musical forms died too.

Soul Music has in fact effectively been dead since the mid 80's. Of course, it didn't suddenly die on one particular day but it was brought about due to a combination of social, cultural, economic and musical (industry) factors in the US over a period of years leading into the 80's.

If you want to read about the demise of Soul Music, I recommend that you all read US music journo Nelson George's excellent book entitled "The Death of Rhythm and Blues". He actually wrote that book back in the 80's and, for example, lamented the fact that multinationals like CBS were failing to appreciate their own hit making artists like Johnny Taylor and Tyrone Davis and going for the easy dollar. The book details all the factors that led to the death of Soul Music and Soul Culture.

Of course Soul Music is not completely dead however, the Soul Music torch has been carried on to a diminishing degree in small pockets of the US since the 80's by elder statesmen such as Bobby Womack and the late Johnny Taylor as well as the kind of artists that Sean Hampsey referred to in his earlier post, and also artists of the genre that we all used to refer to as "Real Soul" or "Indie Soul" artists through the 80's & 90's.

But Amy Winehouse ? Or tracks like "Tribute To Betty" ? Or what people constantly have constantly referred to for 20 years as "soulful house" ??? Please !!! Just because a black girl wails over a dirge like 120 bpm computerised beat without chord changes does not make it soul ... or even soulful ! As I say , I am not in any way dismissing Amy Winehouse or house music as good music, they are worthwhile ... just don't confuse them with Soul Music !

When people ask what is Soul Music, I usually recommend that they read Barney Hoskin's excellent book "Say It One More Time For The Broken Hearted". Barney perfectly encapsulates the various factors that led to the genesis of Soul Music.

What is really sad though is when people bandy the word "soul" about for every two bit pop artist as if the word "soul" is some worn out football to be kicked against the wall a million times. Or when people use the old stereotypical references - as Tony referred to above - like, is it about being "black or white" or, is soul just a "feeling" ....

Soul Music is in fact actually all about specific time, people and places. It is about Motown and Memphis and Chicago and Philly ... it is about the Masqueraders and the Precisions and Bill Brandon and Betty Harris .. it is about Jerry Ragavoy and Van McCoy and Allen Toussaint and Gamble and Huff ... it is about James Jamerson and Bobby Eli and James Gadson ... and Hitsville and Fame and Muscle Shoals. And it is everything else and in between everything that we here on Soul Source for the most part enthusiastically rave about as if it was a life long love affair.

Thought I'd save myself some extra work on the keys-

No. In fact you are wrong. Sorry I haven't read the book.

-Kev

[Guest ScooterNik]

If Amy Whitehouse hadn't found pop success but Sharon Jones had, ten years down the line she would be being discovered and hailed as a wonderful soulstress unlike the sell out Ms Jones.

Its the way of the soul scene, always has been and always will. This isn't a criticism, its an observation based on how the northern soul scene works.... popular = bad, obscure = good. And long may it stay that way...

All in a particularly non-PC IMNSHO sort of way......

[Zed1]

Its the way of the soul scene, always has been and always will. This isn't a criticism, its an observation based on how the northern soul scene works.... popular = bad, obscure = good. And long may it stay that way...

So true!!.....take the other object of this forums Fun, Wigan...

1. The Casino. Massive, long running venue attended by tens of thousands of people = Shit hole full of people in comedy trousers dancing to 'pop' records.

2. The Wheeltappers and Shunters by-yearly Motown Tribute night attended by 7 people (including Staff) = Awesome venue packed to the rafters playing the best in Quality upfront R & B and Rare soul...

[Paul R]

I don't normally like to get involved withg this sort of thread, that just deteriorates into a lot of petty bickering with the moral high ground being taken by some people. That sounds like the old Black music review of a northern biggie that was released(I can't remember what it was but the reviewer said "I've never heard it , but it's crap" or words to that effect). I don't regard Ms Winehouse as a soul artist, but on some tracks she has what, in my humble opinion is a soulful voice.

I think that the reason she is mentioned so much this year, is that when sat at work and listening to radio 2 or whatever, and a track comes on that immediatly strikes a chord in many (northern) Soul fans minds, then it gets discussed. The column inches that she actually gets, is the total detractors that can't just say "she's not my cup of tea" but have to turn it into the "I know all about soul, and that ain't it", and provoke an arguement.

As for the comment about plagiarism, as this is predominantly a Northern Soul Forum, then isn't the majority, or at least the stereotypical northern record, plagiarised from the Standard uptempo Motown template?

Paul

[Ian Dewhirst]

The reason that she is not a soul artiste, is because neither she nor her music has any soul - simple as that. Colour doesn't (and never has) come into it. I do hate it when people raise the 'Is it becuse I'm white?" argument, it's so unnecessary....

We must be listening to different stuff Tony!

"Tears Dry On Their Own" is an Ashford, Simpson and Winehouse song (Amy wrote the lyrics which are great) and sounds unbelievably soulful to me. There is no doubt in my mind that if this was from the 60's, unknown and on an ultra-rare label it would have been a monster in almost any era. The Mark Ronson production is brilliant - obviously he knows what he's doing and there's no questioning the expertise of the Dap-Kings.

As it is, it's the biggest-selling UK album of the year, a smash in the U.S. and a great example of a UK act breaking internationally. She sure sounds soulful to me AND she's finding a huge international audience.

And for anyone who hasn't heard it here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYUP2K182t4

If she carries on at this rate that Aretha cover may not be too far off! Beats the shit out of Beverly Ann, Dana Valery and Judy Street IMHO LOL.....

Ian D

[Tomangoes]

We must be listening to different stuff Tony!

"Tears Dry On Their Own" is an Ashford, Simpson and Winehouse song (Amy wrote the lyrics which are great) and sounds unbelievably soulful to me. There is no doubt in my mind that if this was from the 60's, unknown and on an ultra-rare label it would have been a monster in almost any era. The Mark Ronson production is brilliant - obviously he knows what he's doing and there's no questioning the expertise of the Dap-Kings.

As it is, it's the biggest-selling UK album of the year, a smash in the U.S. and a great example of a UK act breaking internationally. She sure sounds soulful to me AND she's finding a huge international audience.

And for anyone who hasn't heard it here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYUP2K182t4

If she carries on at this rate that Aretha cover may not be too far off! Beats the shit out of Beverly Ann, Dana Valery and Judy Street IMHO LOL.....

Ian D

Agreed in full, I could dance to this, sing along, and clap at the end, no problem.

Lets put it this way, Ian Levine produced his CD of what Northern Soul is in 2007. The Amy Whinehouse experience touches on some aspects of Northern Soul 2007 stylie.

To me the latter is natural, the former is fabricated. Not knocking IL, he tried his best but its worse than his 1976 Northern.

Neither can replace the real thing, but to me it proves that it would be possible to find the ingredients to get close.

Till next year - All the best, even to those who are living totally in the past....

Ed

Edited December 30, 2007 by tomangoes

[Dylan]

i've lost count on the number of Amy Winehouse threads we've had this year ? all as poitnless as the last.

[Guest bleusuperb]

No no my friend, you are mistaken, even with the same musicians, Sharon Jones is a real deal soul artiste, Amy Winehouse is not !

Sorry, but have to disagree, in my opinion she is releasing tracks that would have been played at events in the 70's and 80's and caused a stampede of punters both to the floor and the record bar.

If she was not a current popular artist but rather some discovery by Butch etc, then I doubt the experts amongst us would be less inclined to rubbish her.

Not 60's, not black, not poor, not American, not undiscovered for years but bloody good though.

[Guest SoulBoogieAlex]

Now that's an interesting question isn't it. If Wino would have been a nugget from the past, would collectors have appreciated her voice then? I've always marveled at the fact that tracks like "Losin' Boy" by Eddie Giles have gotten so much appreciation over time. While I think there's a good reason why that track is obscure, a lot of Deep Soul fans feel its pure brilliance. Sometimes I wonder though if obscure and brilliant simply get confused a lot.

I like to think that wouldn't really matter to me. I find Wino's singing sloppy and her public image somewhat embarrassing. What is curious to me though is how Wino's release prompted a new discussion about her being the savior of Soul or not, the one who's going to resurrect the genre. It is my opinion that Soul never left and has been alive and kicking for years again. The Golden age of Soul may have been roughly 1965 to 1975 but the genre is by no means dead. To view it as such you would have to ignore the whole flood of releases that goes under the moniker of Nu-Soul.

Although Nu-Soul is undeniably different from classic Soul, I do feel it is Soul none the less. Just as Rock music Soul kept evolving into something new and different. Even in the Golden age this was very much the case. Between Stax and Gamble & Huff Soul changed in style more than a few times. I think it would be wrong to try and narrow down Soul music to something it never really was. Isaac Hayes' Hot Buttered Soul is light years away from what Ray Charles did when he kick started the genre, but it is both undeniably Soul. The genre may have transformed into New Jack Swing, Hip Hop Soul and then Nu-Soul after that, but to me that's all Soul. Despite the disco and FM radio backlash in the early eighties, the genre got back up on its feet soon enough if you ask me.

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Interesting thread. I concure with many comments on this, but SoulboogieAlex summed it up. Things are changing and so are we all. I look at myself as a 17 year old in 1973 hearing for the first time a record produced in 1965! I was overwhelemd in the clubs and could not understand why I had not heard these records before. Now in 2008, 42 years after that record was first released I realise my dad, in 1973 was always saying how much their style of music from the 1930's/40's was so much better, which was about 40 years later. It seems whether we like it or not, somebody will come along and change something for the better or worse, but we have to be mindful that a prejudice can deny an individual of new horizons and most important ...fun. I opened my eyes to big band and I was shocked...I love it. But that does not stop me loving 60's/70's soul and more important listening the nu soul material being created today. I slightly am concerned that 'Aint no mountain high enough' has been changed, because I feel new songs should be written with current and appropriate lyics, but that's just me.

Talking of which...what do you make of this 'The Go Team' from brighton:

https://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p_LoSqyNmeo&...feature=related

Listen to the opening, the glock and drum fills. What about the trumpet stabs and catchy hooks. It may be young and fresh, but there are very important elements to this that appeal to young and old. The melody for me is not so good, but there is something. Should I dismiss it because it does not have a sweeping harp, or razor sharp back beats on the 2/4?

[stomper45]

I'm so very sorry. I haven't been enlightened so, can you tell me what is soul and what isn't?

Why Sam Dees is soul and Amy Winehouse isn't? Because one is more black, or because it seems he's suffering more while he's singing, or because he lived in the 60s?????

I'm not defending anyone, or saying there aren't other soul artists deserving recognition at least on the forum. I just need to be taught a little, as I'm a begginer in the mysterious world of soul music...

Cheers from Mexico.

why does stinky outhouse sing with an american accent just like robbie wiliams, (is she trying to be macy gray) imagine otis or jackie singing a pop record with a cockney twang,