Exact Copies

[Harry Crosby]

Being new to soul source i don`t know wether this subject has arisen before, the subject i am about to post is purely a discussion & no accusations are being made. Over the past few years on my travels the subject of counterfiet copies has arisen in conversation on a number of occasions, may i add by some well seasoned & respected members of the record collecting fraternity, the usual train of thought is that in this age of technology, and seeing some of the lookalike re-issues that are now being produced, would it not be as easy to produce copies of originals, in there original format? Surely if some one was to use the right information and products this would be not only achievable but very lucrative indeed. This trai of thought is coming from the fact that in one way or another records have been imported into this country for the soul scene for rhe best part of forty years now, and records are still turning up in mint if not pristine condition, just thought this might be a good discussion

[Guest]

Being new to soul source i don`t know wether this subject has arisen before, the subject i am about to post is purely a discussion & no accusations are being made. Over the past few years on my travels the subject of counterfiet copies has arisen in conversation on a number of occasions, may i add by some well seasoned & respected members of the record collecting fraternity, the usual train of thought is that in this age of technology, and seeing some of the lookalike re-issues that are now being produced, would it not be as easy to produce copies of originals, in there original format? Surely if some one was to use the right information and products this would be not only achievable but very lucrative indeed. This trai of thought is coming from the fact that in one way or another records have been imported into this country for the soul scene for rhe best part of forty years now, and records are still turning up in mint if not pristine condition, just thought this might be a good discussion

To make a record excactly like the original is quite hard. The label has to be the right kind of paper and the vinyl would have to be the same as the original. A lot of the lookalikes look authentic on a photo, but when you can hold one, the plastic/matrix and paper is not right. The only records that would be worth taking a lot of trouble over producing would be expensive one's, but then if to many turn up, questions begin to be asked about their source.

Mint copies of cheap records are still being found in their original paper sleeves so rarer records must still be around in the same condition.

[Harry Crosby]

To make a record excactly like the original is quite hard. The label has to be the right kind of paper and the vinyl would have to be the same as the original. A lot of the lookalikes look authentic on a photo, but when you can hold one, the plastic/matrix and paper is not right. The only records that would be worth taking a lot of trouble over producing would be expensive one's, but then if to many turn up, questions begin to be asked about their source.

Mint copies of cheap records are still being found in their original paper sleeves so rarer records must still be around in the same condition.

Completly understand what your saying there, and ive thrown up these points in these discussion in the past, and ive allways got back the technology side of things and the point of the so called mid priced or not the super rare items if you know what i mean being dribbled into the record sales circuit, It has been a fact over the past few years that some of these so called big ticket records are turning up with suprising regularity and still fetching big money this is were the point is coming from i think

[Guest Leigh J]

Completly understand what your saying there, and ive thrown up these points in these discussion in the past, and ive allways got back the technology side of things and the point of the so called mid priced or not the super rare items if you know what i mean being dribbled into the record sales circuit, It has been a fact over the past few years that some of these so called big ticket records are turning up with suprising regularity and still fetching big money this is were the point is coming from i think

Anyone remember the Belgian Sam Fletchers ?

These were thought to be copies at first then turned out to be legit.

What happned to the pressing machines ? it would be nice to get hold of one of those.

[Guest]

For gods sake harry get off the computer and GET THAT TURKEY STUFFED know your place or you'll be gettin a 3 second kettle for xmas luv you darling Di xx

[Gasher]

HI leigh

what do you mean thet turned out to be LEGIT?

in what respect are they legit mate?

I dont know this story

best gasher

Anyone remember the Belgian Sam Fletchers ?

These were thought to be copies at first then turned out to be legit.

What happned to the pressing machines ? it would be nice to get hold of one of those.

[Sunnysoul]

Anyone remember the Belgian Sam Fletchers ?

These were thought to be copies at first then turned out to be legit.

What happned to the pressing machines ? it would be nice to get hold of one of those.

Hang on a minute , those Belgian Sam Fletchers ARE boots aren't they? Scratched in Delta's (not stamped) with the # dating from early 70's right ?

[Guest Leigh J]

HI leigh

what do you mean thet turned out to be LEGIT?

in what respect are they legit mate?

I dont know this story

best gasher

Hi Richie hope you are well ,

OK could be wrong but as i understood it they werent illegal boots , they were legal reissues

[Guest Leigh J]

In the case of the Sam fletchers they were only passed on as proper ones by record dealers not by the people who made them ......thats what I meant

[Guest yorksoultrain]

you should of gone fishing h you could of caught a fish when you opened that can of

worms ha.ha

[45cellar]

Mint Copies are still turning up in Quantity.

>>> Soul Source Thread <<<

>>> Bobby Paris on ebay 2006 <<<

I'm not sure if these copies altered the Value to any Major degree,

or Indeed what happened to them.

[Guest]

In the case of the Sam fletchers they were only passed on as proper ones by record dealers not by the people who made them ......thats what I meant

The Belgium Sam Fletcher boots, were actually California boots made by Henry Mariano & Bob Catteneo (two nice guys who did wondreful 45 replicas) they were never intended to deceive they were made for the Popcorn market. Usually Henry was "honest" enough to add a date into the deadwax. ie 1973 etc. He did this with a large % of his Rockabilly & Doowop boots.. but not unfortunately with the Sam Fletcher.

On the other point of replicas, that's what has been happening for the best part of the last 40 years. So far, they have been pretty easy to detect.

And in the year 2008 it is actually harder to replicate 45s to look like originals because the vinyl type has change dramatically, but more importantly the paper grain & the dye for the print are no longer in existance.

Many of the dyes are now outlawed as they are cacogenic (cancer causing). To replicate and fool experts the counterfeiter would require 60s vinyl (that's possible) 60s paper (that's difficult) 60s typesetting (tricky), 60s dyes (that's pretty much impossible) to acquire.

But I'm sure someone will try....again.

Edited December 23, 2007 by john manship

[Chalky]

The Belgium Sam Fletcher boots, were actually California boots made by Henry Mariano & Bob Catteneo (two nice guys who did wondreful 45 replicas) they were never intended to deceive they were made for the Popcorn market. Usually Henry was "honest" enough to add a date into the deadwax. ie 1973 etc. He did this with a large % of his Rockabilly & Doowop boots.. but not unfortunately with the Sam Fletcher.

Henry and Bobs work......

wasn't there a few single colour ones? the multicoloured one is pretty rare is it not John?

[Guest]

Henry and Bobs work......

wasn't there a few single colour ones? the multicoloured one is pretty rare is it not John?

Yep, Bob thought it hilarious to throw handfuls of different coloured vinyl pearls into the mix. Just to see what they would turn out like..

These are pretty rare and highly collectable. They did plain vinyl presses in blue, red, green, yellow, or white. But the muliticoloured ones are a less than 5 known copies. The Eddie Foster "Multi-coloured" vinyl boot I believe we achieved over £200 at auction for it and I've only ever seen two, and maybe they were the same copy.

They look great, don't they?

Edited December 23, 2007 by john manship

[Chalky]

Yep, Bob thought it hilarious to throw handfuls of different coloured vinyl pearls into the mix. Just to see what they would turn out like..

These are pretty rare and highly collectable. They did plain blue, red, green, yellow, white. But the muliticoloured ones are a less than 5 known copies. The Eddie Foster "Multi-coloured" vinyl boot I believe we achieved over £200 at auction for it and I've only ever seen two, and maybe they were the same copy.

They look great, don't they?

They do look great. I wonder what they would fetch now at auction

[Harry Crosby]

They do look great. I wonder what they would fetch now at auction

Did these guys have anything to do with eddie foster-i never new multicoloured vinyl copies? seen one of those one of my metes from york has it, its the only one ive seen though seen the other colours but not the multicoloured ones

[Chalky]

Did these guys have anything to do with eddie foster-i never new multicoloured vinyl copies? seen one of those one of my metes from york has it, its the only one ive seen though seen the other colours but not the multicoloured ones

yes they did

[Guest]

Did these guys have anything to do with eddie foster-i never new multicoloured vinyl copies? seen one of those one of my metes from york has it, its the only one ive seen though seen the other colours but not the multicoloured ones

Yes Eddie Foster was their work.

[Guest gordon russell]

did'nt a guy from new york counterfiet the salvadors.the international gto's and a couple of others these were very accurate,but they all had p.b stamped in the runout. this was in the 70's. I think the guy is now dead

[Guest]

did'nt a guy from new york counterfiet the salvadors.the international gto's and a couple of others these were very accurate,but they all had p.b stamped in the runout. this was in the 70's. I think the guy is now dead

The P.B. presses came via Simon in Los Angeles during the 70s. I've never found out who P.B. was or is. Anyone know?

Bob Catteneo was the first guy to see these "counterfeits" as Simon tried to pass them off as originals. Anderson Brothers, Johnny Vanelli, Mel Britt, George Blackwell, Salvadors etc etc. Bob smelt a rat, he would being a master repro-man himself.

When Bob said "these are not originals" Simon promptly took a George Blackwell out of it's sleeve and rubbed it round on the carpet, saying "hey now they look used and real".

A trick deployed on Jeanne and The Valamonts, Four Vandals etc. in more recent times.

Maybe Ian Dewhirst will know who P.B. is, he knew Simon better than me around that period of the mid-70s as in was residing in L.A.

Are you there Frank?? Who was P.B. ??

[Guest gordon russell]

hey john you should be wrapping up my xmas pressie ho ho ho

[45cellar]

The P.B. presses came via Simon in Los Angeles during the 70s. I've never found out who P.B. was or is. Anyone know?

Bob Catteneo was the first guy to see these "counterfeits" as Simon tried to pass them off as originals. Anderson Brothers, Johnny Vanelli, Mel Britt, George Blackwell, Salvadors etc etc. Bob smelt a rat, he would being a master repro-man himself.

When Bob said "these are not originals" Simon promptly took a George Blackwell out of it's sleeve and rubbed it round on the carpet, saying "hey now they look used and real".

A trick deployed on Jeanne and The Valamonts, Four Vandals etc. in more recent times.

Maybe Ian Dewhirst will know who P.B. is, he knew Simon better than me around that period of the mid-70s as in was residing in L.A.

Are you there Frank?? Who was P.B. ??

This is one of them, has P.B. Scratched in the Deadwax.

---------* BOOT *

---------* BOOT *

Edited December 23, 2007 by 45cellar