swons - split thread

[ImberBoy]

Another treasure is lost forever, I hope we all dance together in a better place. God bless.

Pete and Ady not too sure if I agree with you on the SWONS as being a very important work and having the foresight to film all of these people?

Ady you are possible one of the very few characters on the Northernsoul scene who I respect; most like Ian are "Band Wagoner", If Ian had done this film before the "Big Bang" then it would be important work, only my opinion of course.

He filmed "old" and dare I say ..... Past it soul stars and did not in any way capture any of their former charisma or..... Well...... soul.

Many of them have now passed away so the film has gained accidental importance. None of this was intentional and this film was met with cringes and sighs of disbelief on its release.

Sorry to offend any one wants to pay their last respects on the forum to Bob but the idea that Ian Levine was making this film with foresight just doesn't sit well with me coz it just aint fookin true.

SWONS is a pale hurried shallow and tacky attempt to cash in on the northernsoul scene and just because it was done does not make it good.

Again please forgive me those who mourn

[Guest Paul]

Hello,

You're entitled to your own opinion about SWONS but it's unfair to say that Ian was jumping on the "bandwagon" by making the documentary. Like it or not, I don't think he needed anyone's permission to invest his own money in a project which was close to his heart.

Even those who don't like SWONS should at least appreciate the increasing historic value it has, especially because many of the artists have since passed away.

The way I see it, if Ian hadn't made SWONS many of the artists would never have been filmed. A classic example is the late James Fountain who performed very well and obviously enjoyed the experience.

As for being "old" or "past it", we're all getting older every day. Would you prefer it if real artists had been portrayed by younger actors???

Try watching it again, you might just enjoy it.

Paul Mooney

[45cellar]

Hello,

You're entitled to your own opinion about SWONS but it's unfair to say that Ian was jumping on the "bandwagon" by making the documentary. Like it or not, I don't think he needed anyone's permission to invest his own money in a project which was close to his heart.

Even those who don't like SWONS should at least appreciate the increasing historic value it has, especially because many of the artists have since passed away.

The way I see it, if Ian hadn't made SWONS many of the artists would never have been filmed. A classic example is the late James Fountain who performed very well and obviously enjoyed the experience.

As for being "old" or "past it", we're all getting older every day. Would you prefer it if real artists had been portrayed by younger actors???

Try watching it again, you might just enjoy it.

Paul Mooney

I Enjoyed It, I think that The Bob Relf clip Is proof (If any were needed)

that the special effects on many of the others was a Mistake.

However I would rather SWONS as is, than not at all.

Edited December 10, 2007 by 45cellar

[Guest]

I Enjoyed It, I think that The Bob Relf clip Is proof (If any were needed)

that the special effects on many of the others was a Mistake.

However I would rather SWONS as is, than not at all.

Well said , Roger ; I am in agreement totally with you ......

Like it or loath it , " TSWONS " is a very creditable testiment to a genre - with the exception of the ' special effects ' - , made by someone who made a highly creditable contribution to the same ......

Malc Burton

Edited December 10, 2007 by Malc Burton

[ImberBoy]

Dodgy karaoke done by old northernsoul artists to porn special effects is what it is!

The next time some one asks "What's Northernsoul?" How many of you are going to say...... "Hold on young fellow me lad, sit there; I have this DVD that is gonna explain every thing"?

How many of you who bought the SWONS after watching it thought, fookin ell that was shat?

How many of you who bought the SWONS after watching it thought, fantastic, just what we wanted, at long last a true and well thought out DVD about our scene?

Ian Levine is a talented chap, "Footsteps" is one of my all time favourite tracks but SWONS makes me kill prostitutes.

[sister dawn]

Dodgy karaoke done by old northernsoul artists to porn special effects is what it is!

The next time some one asks "What's Northernsoul?" How many of you are going to say...... "Hold on young fellow me lad, sit there; I have this DVD that is gonna explain every thing"?

How many of you who bought the SWONS after watching it thought, fookin ell that was shat?

How many of you who bought the SWONS after watching it thought, fantastic, just what we wanted, at long last a true and well thought out DVD about our scene?

Ian Levine is a talented chap, "Footsteps" is one of my all time favourite tracks but SWONS makes me kill prostitutes.

Imber 'tell it like it is'

I got TSWONS when it was first released in video format and payed a hefty price for it, I sat watching hour after hour thinking it would get more 'sympathetic' towards those fantastic artists featured, but it didnt!!. It continued with some real dodgy windows media imagary as backgrounds and worse of all what really spoiled it for me is the irritating, sickening, dodgy bloody backbeat that was added to everyone of the brilliant tracks featured .... an attempt to obviously coin it,aimed for the 'normal market'. An insult not only to the artists but also to the northern farternity, yet again. It was great to see the artists behind the songs don't get me wrong, but to destroy some fantastic music like that is unforgivable.

A fitting tribute is to play them in their original format and for the reasons we cherish them so much.

bob_relf.mp3

Bob Relf R.I.P

[Pete S]

How many of you who bought the SWONS after watching it thought, fookin ell that was shat?

I did - in fact I doubt there was a bigger critic of the film than me and it landed me in hot water with several people, they even launched a website just to slag me off for daring to criticise it...ah those were the days...but if you go back to the film it gets better and better. For a start - the interview footage and history of the scene is second to none and the best thats been done. The special effects were done for a reason - to cover up the background of where the singer was peforming (many were done in the artists own homes). I know that Ian is going through all of the clips one by one and since the technology has evolved, he's removing the special effects. Have a look at jackie Ross - Keep Your Chin Up on youtube and you'll see how it's now filmed in subtle tints rather than swirly Doctor Who type effects.

What I had a problem with was the recreation of the actual tracks, which is probably why you refer to it as karaoke, a lot of the basic 60's music doesn't translate into the multi-track 90's, but of course they couldn't get the copyright to use the original recordings and the artists would have had to mime anyway.

I do know where you're coming from but I think if you dip into it again you'll enjoy it more this time.

[Billy Freemantle]

I agree with Imber Boy on this. To 'capture' formerly great artists well past their expiry date did them no service at all. and certainly none to Northern Soul. The result was often comical bordering on the grotesque. Just what was the point of old guys and gals miming badly to 40 year old records? I would have been much happier to see them respectfully interviewed and to simply hear their 60s gems. To an outsider, a lot of SWONS must appear to be a pisstake rather than a tribute.

[Guest Stuart T]

What I had a problem with was the recreation of the actual tracks, which is probably why you refer to it as karaoke, a lot of the basic 60's music doesn't translate into the multi-track 90's, but of course they couldn't get the copyright to use the original recordings and the artists would have had to mime anyway.

I do know where you're coming from but I think if you dip into it again you'll enjoy it more this time.

I think the big error that Ian made was to feature the artists performing (particularly to substandard backing tracks). A few hours of interviews would have been much more inetresting for many people. I care little for three minutes of someone redoing an old song over the wrong backing track in their garage. I can't remember now but does Ian ever get interviewed himself during the programme?

I see SWONS now has calmed down special effects which is good, may have to give it anotehr go one day, but having paid for the first one I'm not rushing out to buy it again.

[Ady Croasdell]

It's not perfect by any means but there are a lot of great moments in there. Rose Batiste and the Gems spring to mind. I brought Carl Carlton over to the UK on the strength of seeing him in that vid.

Everyone should have a personal edit copy of it to get one very good DVD from it but everyone's would be different.

I only struggled with it on video, I should get a DVD which I believe are easier to fast forward, did someone say it's coming out in a better edit?

[Simsy]

A lot of this was orginally covered in >Billy Whizz's Feb 06 SWONS thread<

On balance, think it's worth the watch.

[Guest Stuart T]

Everyone should have a personal edit copy of it to get one very good DVD from it but everyone's would be different.

Yep, guess thats the final word on it, personal taste. To be frank, if it wasn't for the re-recordings and dodgy editing on the video I would have probably quite enjoyed it. I'm not expecting a Christmas card from Ian for saying that though.

[Neil Rushton]

I was involved with Ian on SWONS and whatever people might think of the film - personally I like Pat Brady's description of it as a "flawed masterpiece" - I can assure you that the amount of money Ian put into it meant there was no realistic chance of him getting his investment back, never mind making a profit.

There would be nothing wrong with Ian making a profit from it by the way, but the more he ploughed on finding and filming artists (around 129 at the end) the more the costs escalated.

I paid for the manufacuring and marketing of the video release and put some money into the actual filming and I got my money back.Ian invested a lot lot more than me and is well in the red on the whole thing.

A lot of people find fault with Ian and we have some right rucks, but for SWONS his heart was definitely in the right place. Some of the clips like "I Have Faith With You" - Edwin Starr, "Reconsider" - Brenda Holloway, "I'll Be There"- The Gems are great. Others, like Barbara Mills, make me cringe.

Having a go at Ian for the quality of the footage is fair enough, but it's really ignorant to say that he was out to make a fortune with SWONS. What happened that he got caught up in the romance of it and naively hoped that the sales would get him his money back, when I pointed out to him in the middle of the production madness that it he would be lucky to recoup his investment and was he sure he wanted to keep on spending he went on anyway. I got caught up in the romance of the project too, but i wouldn't have done that and I don't imagine many other people would either.. So give the guy some credit.The funny thing is that people go on about Ian exploiting the scene, but he is actually more in love with causes than money.

We put the video out ourselves and did OK but nothing like enough to justify the time and expense,but we were determined to get it out come what may and the balance sheet was not our prioirty.The subsequent DVD rights were licenced to Wienerworld and yes we have had an e advance and subsequent royalties from them , but not enough to dent Ian's invesment.

I'm not saying Ian is a Saint or anything for doing this. but fair's fair, the SWONS project was a heavy financial commitment by Ian plus month and months of hard work when he was doing 17 hour days. And it is the only film of many cherished Soul artists. Personally I think footage of the likes of Carl Davis is priceless and a lot of the interviews with the UK scene makers are worth watching.

Even getting permission to "synch" all the songs with the film, which we paid fees for to the MCPS, was a logistical nightmare, the idea of being actually able to licence the original versions of all the tracks for the videos is and was a non starter, both practically and cost wise.

The Levine bashers will probably have a right go at me for the above and I really don't give a shit what they say,but they should try and get their facts right.

And before anyone pipes up that they have heard the arists have not been paid royalties that is correct - because the contracts agree all profts will be split with the artists on a pro-ratra basis, ie if there was say £100k profit then £50k would go to the artits on the videos, and as there are (I think) 129 of them, then they would each £50k divided by 129.As there isn't a profit then there is nothing to split with the artists. Some artits, like The Dells,actually got paid for their performances.

One of the best things about SWONS on a personal level was meeting up again with Otis Leavill, who had put me up in his house in Chicago in the 70's. He died a year after being filmed and I will always remember how such a real life tough guy (he was a sharpshooter for Cicago police) was so thrilled at peforming at the SWONS premier at Blackburn.

The funniest thing about SWONS was Bobby Paris at Blackburn ... but that's a whole other story.

[macca]

quite frankly, I would rather have it than not have it. it's virtually the only document we have on folk that were just tunes to dance to or labels to drool over for some of us (I respect that viewpoint but don't comprehend it). I feel rather grateful for being given the chance to see people like jimmy burns, herb ward, gwen owens & yvonne baker, actually relishing the experience. & what's wrong with a good old cringe? barbara mills confirmed my suspicions, as did bobby paris, but it was strangely enjoyable to watch them ham it. I also think it would've been selfish of us to have expected them to remain in the shadows forever. All in all, I think Ian's project was most commendable.

M

go on neil, tell us about mr. paris in blackburn... :-)

[Hitsville Chalky]

I was involved with Ian on SWONS and whatever people might think of the film - personally I like Pat Brady's description of it as a "flawed masterpiece" - I can assure you that the amount of money Ian put into it meant there was no realistic chance of him getting his investment back, never mind making a profit.

There would be nothing wrong with Ian making a profit from it by the way, but the more he ploughed on finding and filming artists (around 129 at the end) the more the costs escalated.

I paid for the manufacuring and marketing of the video release and put some money into the actual filming and I got my money back.Ian invested a lot lot more than me and is well in the red on the whole thing.

A lot of people find fault with Ian and we have some right rucks, but for SWONS his heart was definitely in the right place. Some of the clips like "I Have Faith With You" - Edwin Starr, "Reconsider" - Brenda Holloway, "I'll Be There"- The Gems are great. Others, like Barbara Mills, make me cringe.

Having a go at Ian for the quality of the footage is fair enough, but it's really ignorant to say that he was out to make a fortune with SWONS. What happened that he got caught up in the romance of it and naively hoped that the sales would get him his money back, when I pointed out to him in the middle of the production madness that it he would be lucky to recoup his investment and was he sure he wanted to keep on spending he went on anyway. I got caught up in the romance of the project too, but i wouldn't have done that and I don't imagine many other people would either.. So give the guy some credit.The funny thing is that people go on about Ian exploiting the scene, but he is actually more in love with causes than money.

We put the video out ourselves and did OK but nothing like enough to justify the time and expense,but we were determined to get it out come what may and the balance sheet was not our prioirty.The subsequent DVD rights were licenced to Wienerworld and yes we have had an e advance and subsequent royalties from them , but not enough to dent Ian's invesment.

I'm not saying Ian is a Saint or anything for doing this. but fair's fair, the SWONS project was a heavy financial commitment by Ian plus month and months of hard work when he was doing 17 hour days. And it is the only film of many cherished Soul artists. Personally I think footage of the likes of Carl Davis is priceless and a lot of the interviews with the UK scene makers are worth watching.

Even getting permission to "synch" all the songs with the film, which we paid fees for to the MCPS, was a logistical nightmare, the idea of being actually able to licence the original versions of all the tracks for the videos is and was a non starter, both practically and cost wise.

The Levine bashers will probably have a right go at me for the above and I really don't give a shit what they say,but they should try and get their facts right.

And before anyone pipes up that they have heard the arists have not been paid royalties that is correct - because the contracts agree all profts will be split with the artists on a pro-ratra basis, ie if there was say £100k profit then £50k would go to the artits on the videos, and as there are (I think) 129 of them, then they would each £50k divided by 129.As there isn't a profit then there is nothing to split with the artists. Some artits, like The Dells,actually got paid for their performances.

One of the best things about SWONS on a personal level was meeting up again with Otis Leavill, who had put me up in his house in Chicago in the 70's. He died a year after being filmed and I will always remember how such a real life tough guy (he was a sharpshooter for Cicago police) was so thrilled at peforming at the SWONS premier at Blackburn.

The funniest thing about SWONS was Bobby Paris at Blackburn ... but that's a whole other story.

WELL SAID NEIL I THINK SWONS IS A WONDERFUL DVD WITH ALL THOSE ARTIST'S ON. THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT WHAT IAN DOES OR HAS DONE WITH THESE ARTIST'S HOW HARD IT IS FOR HIM , TO BE HONEST I HAD A RUN IN WITH HIM OVER THE ELGIN'S THIS YEAR ABOUT PAYMENT FOR THE GROUP SO HE COULD FILM 3 VIDEOS FOR HIS YOU TUBE PAGE , WE DECIDED ON A FEE BUT AFTER ALL WHERE ELSE CAN WE WATCH THESE VIDEOS AND NOBODY ELSE WANTED TO FILM THEM OR EVEN RECORD NEW STUFF WITH THEM APART FROM IAN.

[Chris L]

I was involved with Ian on SWONS and whatever people might think of the film - personally I like Pat Brady's description of it as a "flawed masterpiece" - I can assure you that the amount of money Ian put into it meant there was no realistic chance of him getting his investment back, never mind making a profit.

The way the film was made it never ever really had a chance to be that masterpiece,

there were so many artists, punters, locations, etc. It would have run into the millions

for sure and let's face it NS would never really be able to stump up that sort of money.

What was the alternative ? Small time production about 20 artists, 15 - 20 punters, that

would draw the same amount of criticism as the film turned out to be. Those of us who

helpt make it did it with a lot of our own money. In my case a trip to Amstrdam and Los

Angeles, I did get some expenses re-imbursed, about 1/2 what it actually cost. No matter,

I loved every second I was doing it.

However, an awful lot of artists did get filmed and are there for eternity and that surely

was worth all the effort.

Chris L

[Ady Croasdell]

I don't think anyone's having a bash at Ian here, ImberBoy was just having his say and most of the other posts have been in favour of the film, with some reservations. I too helped the film and am glad I did, but I can understand the criticism too.

[Alan Pollard]

I was involved with Ian on SWONS and whatever people might think of the film - personally I like Pat Brady's description of it as a "flawed masterpiece" - I can assure you that the amount of money Ian put into it meant there was no realistic chance of him getting his investment back, never mind making a profit.

There would be nothing wrong with Ian making a profit from it by the way, but the more he ploughed on finding and filming artists (around 129 at the end) the more the costs escalated.

I paid for the manufacuring and marketing of the video release and put some money into the actual filming and I got my money back.Ian invested a lot lot more than me and is well in the red on the whole thing.

A lot of people find fault with Ian and we have some right rucks, but for SWONS his heart was definitely in the right place. Some of the clips like "I Have Faith With You" - Edwin Starr, "Reconsider" - Brenda Holloway, "I'll Be There"- The Gems are great. Others, like Barbara Mills, make me cringe.

Having a go at Ian for the quality of the footage is fair enough, but it's really ignorant to say that he was out to make a fortune with SWONS. What happened that he got caught up in the romance of it and naively hoped that the sales would get him his money back, when I pointed out to him in the middle of the production madness that it he would be lucky to recoup his investment and was he sure he wanted to keep on spending he went on anyway. I got caught up in the romance of the project too, but i wouldn't have done that and I don't imagine many other people would either.. So give the guy some credit.The funny thing is that people go on about Ian exploiting the scene, but he is actually more in love with causes than money.

We put the video out ourselves and did OK but nothing like enough to justify the time and expense,but we were determined to get it out come what may and the balance sheet was not our prioirty.The subsequent DVD rights were licenced to Wienerworld and yes we have had an e advance and subsequent royalties from them , but not enough to dent Ian's invesment.

I'm not saying Ian is a Saint or anything for doing this. but fair's fair, the SWONS project was a heavy financial commitment by Ian plus month and months of hard work when he was doing 17 hour days. And it is the only film of many cherished Soul artists. Personally I think footage of the likes of Carl Davis is priceless and a lot of the interviews with the UK scene makers are worth watching.

Even getting permission to "synch" all the songs with the film, which we paid fees for to the MCPS, was a logistical nightmare, the idea of being actually able to licence the original versions of all the tracks for the videos is and was a non starter, both practically and cost wise.

The Levine bashers will probably have a right go at me for the above and I really don't give a shit what they say,but they should try and get their facts right.

And before anyone pipes up that they have heard the arists have not been paid royalties that is correct - because the contracts agree all profts will be split with the artists on a pro-ratra basis, ie if there was say £100k profit then £50k would go to the artits on the videos, and as there are (I think) 129 of them, then they would each £50k divided by 129.As there isn't a profit then there is nothing to split with the artists. Some artits, like The Dells,actually got paid for their performances.

One of the best things about SWONS on a personal level was meeting up again with Otis Leavill, who had put me up in his house in Chicago in the 70's. He died a year after being filmed and I will always remember how such a real life tough guy (he was a sharpshooter for Cicago police) was so thrilled at peforming at the SWONS premier at Blackburn.

The funniest thing about SWONS was Bobby Paris at Blackburn ... but that's a whole other story.

I totally agree with you here Neil, although me an Ian have had our moments especially over a certain Jean & The Vallamonts disc but where SWONS is concerned he is my total respect, I remember going to the launch at Blackburn and that was for me a fabulous day, I sat on the balcony for the first few hours and enjoyed the company of the likes of Dean Courtney and Otis Leavill and members of The Dells, a fabulous experience for me, I had also agreed prior to the launch to meet up with Bobby Paris and show him the picture sleeve I had of his release "Personally" which I have on German Polydor which he had no idea had been released especially in Germany, but like Neil mentioned Bobby seemed to be in a bit of a mess but he told me he was jet lagged but I think Neil might tell us different. Anyway I only have SWONS on old fashioned VHS so I think it's about Father Christmas got me an updated DVD of it, glad to hear that Ian has started to improve the awful effects on it, but as Neil says that was done for a reason but I think it could have been presented a little better, another thing why slag off Barbara Mills performance, that is what she is like, does it change the quality of the original tune, it would have been wrong to dismiss her, what should we expect from artists who are 40 years older and probably never performed these songs in all that time if ever. The interviews with the scenes characters are priceless and seeing the likes of The Gems, Bob Relf, The Artistics etc etc was awesome.

Regards

Alan

[Chris L]

I totally agree with you here Neil, although me an Ian have had our moments especially over a certain Jean & The Vallamonts disc but where SWONS is concerned he is my total respect,

another thing why slag off Barbara Mills performance, that is what she is like, does it change the quality of the original tune, it would have been wrong to dismiss her, what should we expect from artists who are 40 years older and probably never performed these songs in all that time if ever. T

Alan

We should also remember people like Barbara Mills could have just said "No, naff off" but she didn't,

she put some make up on, got into a dress and did it like she does. None of us look like we did did when we were 18 so be grateful of wht we've got.....

Chris L

[Neil Rushton]

Have just come back from seeing Chasetown humble Port Vale in the FA Cup - come on. Chasetown are in the 3rd round of the Cup and the Northern Soul connection is that in the the days of the Burntwood Northern all-dayers and all-nighters they were such a tiny club they played on the pitch next to the old Burntwood Baths venue ..so they have made good progress.

Lots of fellow local Birmingham City supporters there - funny thing was even the Villa and Birmingham fans in the ground were on he same side for for once and having a laugh with each other.

Nothing to do with the thread - BUT WHAT A RESULT.

Anyway, I didn't mean that Barbara Mills herself made me cringe. What made me cringe and feel sorry for her was that she was captured on film when she defintitely didn't look at her best and I wondered if she would be happy seeing herself like that. When the footage came in I asked Ian not to use it and he thought about if for a millionth of second and decided he would anyway.Funny that.

It's just a personal view and maybe it's the wrong one.

I didn't look at my best when interviewed on the film either - I thought I'd get that in before someone else did - but I'm not an artist.

[Missing Link]

I've only got the old video but I think it is an important piece of work. As a movie it suffers from poor editing, cheesy (old) Dr Who style graphics, some stilted 'talking heads' and slightly embarassing mimed songs. However, it allowed us to see a great number of artists who would otherwise have remained faceless cult heroes on the scene and Ian Levine is to be congratulated on having the foresight to film them while they were still with us.

Lurking somewhere in the mass of footage is probably a good film but it really would need a very good editor to bring it out. Meanwhile let's just enjoy it as the historical document that it is.

[Steve G]

I've only got the old video but I think it is an important piece of work. As a movie it suffers from poor editing, cheesy (old) Dr Who style graphics, some stilted 'talking heads' and slightly embarassing mimed songs. However, it allowed us to see a great number of artists who would otherwise have remained faceless cult heroes on the scene and Ian Levine is to be congratulated on having the foresight to film them while they were still with us.

Lurking somewhere in the mass of footage is probably a good film but it really would need a very good editor to bring it out. Meanwhile let's just enjoy it as the historical document that it is.

That sums it up for me, and again I'd rather have it "warts and all' than not have it. So I'd say on balance it's a good thing.