Where Did All The Pop Come From

[Guest nusha]

I'm pretty sure that Dean Courtney was an African American and the genre he worked in was firmly uptown soul music. The Crow doesn't sound like any rock record made at the time, perhaps with the exception of the use of tape loops. I think it's one of the single greatest records ever made and applaud whoever had the foresight and guts to spin it in Northern Soul clubs.

I think Dave Godin unearthed this tune and suggested it to Curtis/Levine etc.Any more info on Dean Courtney anyone?

[Harry Crosby]

JUST THNKING ABOUT THE CROW ON INNER EAR I`M SURE Y MATE HAD IT ON 444 ANY INFO ON THAT RELEASE?

[Garethx]

Dean Courtney's been over here at least once: I believe he performed at Prestatyn a couple of years back. He is most certainly black.

[Billy Freemantle]

It just used to be about dancing and enjoying yourself, not analising every record

I agree that ANALysing was not as important as dancing. But the sounds could not be mainstream. As soon as they were, that was the end of their playlife. I can remember Grooving with Mr Blow being played at The Wheel one Saturday. During the next week, it was on TOTP. It wasn't played at The Wheel again. The same is true of Hey Girl Don't Bother Me, You're Ready Now, Up The Ladder to the Roof and I'm gonna run away from you - all from the same year and all dropped as soon as they charted. The point I'm laboring to make is that it was NOT just a matter of dancing and enjoying yourself. There's nothing anal about having a policy of rarity.

[Sweeney]

I think Dave Godin unearthed this tune and suggested it to Curtis/Levine etc.Any more info on Dean Courtney anyone?

As much Dean Courtney information as one needs to know. Link below

Dean Courtney Website

[Ian Dewhirst]

Smoke your troubles away,forget who but so what!!

And world column rockers,not so to my ears

Nope. "Smoke Your Troubles Away" was by the Glass Family on Earhole Records.

And this is a rare soul forum isn't it, hence the perfectly valid question as to whether there may be any other records on the Inner Ear label? If you're not interested, then maybe don't read the thread!

So we're still down to whether the Crow were a black or white band? Likewise World Column....

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Mike

Welcome to the wonderful world of SS. Ian D will tell you how addictive this can become . You take your life in your hands every time you post, great fun!!!!!!!!

Just wondering whether I should now add Soul Source to my other plethora of addictions? Oh wait, it's still free innit and the government haven't whacked a health warning on it so it must be OK!

Ian D

Dave

[Billy Freemantle]

In the exsplosion of 60's marketing the working class, was seen to be a social economic group with little spending power. The term 'White middle class' along with a whole bunch of other social groupings were developed for marketing purposes.

I'm not sure how this version of history matches up to what actually happened. The post war economic boom in the West saw high levels of employment and increased wages for the working class. Rather than being seen as a socio-economic class without spending power, it was actually quite the opposite and commercial products including the 45rpm record were aimed fairly and squarely at the working classs. Just as 78rpm gramaphone records had been demographically directed at either white or black consumers (with those produced for African Americans actually sold as 'Race' records), so record companies would contine to produce product with either a black or white market in mind. But the class of the targeted consumer was invariably working class as opposed to middle class.

[pikeys dog]

JUST THNKING ABOUT THE CROW ON INNER EAR I`M SURE Y MATE HAD IT ON 444 ANY INFO ON THAT RELEASE?

garrr

the record your thinking of is the unreleased UK issue of Sam Nesbit 'Black Mother Goose' on 444 records - a Dave Godin label that never came to fruition...

Ahaar!

[Guest rachel]

Just a quick reminder to new members to give us a quick 'hello' and a bit about yourselves in the intros section https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showforum=44

Ta

[Garethx]

I'd be really surprised if either The Crow or World Column were white acts. The ballad side of the World Column 45 is fantastic group soul straight out of the top drawer.

[Guest nusha]

Dean Courtney's been over here at least once: I believe he performed at Prestatyn a couple of years back. He is most certainly black.

Yes he is......I was confusing him with Len Barry...Sorry

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'd be really surprised if either The Crow or World Column were white acts. The ballad side of the World Column 45 is fantastic group soul straight out of the top drawer.

With both these records especially, I just have a gut feeling that they were black/white combos since there are definite rock influences in both of 'em. At the time the likes of Sly & The Family Stone, the Chambers Brothers, Jimi Hendrix, Taj Mahal, Eric Burdon & War etc, etc were blurring the lines between Rock and Soul, so it wouldn't be unusual to have a black/white combo that were fusing the elements.

But I guess this is all conjecture until someone can dig up some info.........

Ian D

[Harry Crosby]

garrr

the record your thinking of is the unreleased UK issue of Sam Nesbit 'Black Mother Goose' on 444 records - a Dave Godin label that never came to fruition...

Ahaar!

IT WAS DEFINATLY THE CROW YOUR ATUMN OF TOMORROW LOOKIN AT A TAPE LISTING IT WAS STEVE BOWMANS BROTHER COLIN FROM YORK WHO HAD IT,REMEMBER IT WAS A DESIGN TWO 4`S NEXT TO EACH OTHER WITH ONE ON TOP, HMMM IT GETS STRANGER!

[Guest sasquatch]

I'd be really surprised if either The Crow or World Column were white acts. The ballad side of the World Column 45 is fantastic group soul straight out of the top drawer.

Both great songs. Funky songs!

I don't think Crow was the same as The Crow, just by the samples from allmusic, Crow sounds much more 70s blues rock.

https://wm11.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&...11:h9fexqt5ldde

The vocalist doesn't sound the same at all (not that they couldn't have 2 vocalists in the group). Autumn of Your Tomorrow sounds totally like a black raspy smokers voice, the pronounciation of some of the words makes me think so as well.

World Column sounds very Sly Stone, which could be a mix group. But I think the vocalist sounds black as well, same with the back up vocalists. Really doesn't matter, but I think both are waaay too funky to be full white acts haha. Just my north american opinion

Edited November 27, 2007 by sasquatch

[Harry Crosby]

I agree with the fact that Babe Ruth was a rock group. But The Crow, never in this world, as deep a street funk tune as you are ever gonna find. I'm sure I've seen a photo somewhere of the group and they were a real ghetto looking crowd, a bit like early 70's photos of War.

I have to say I've always had a soft spot for some of the more rock influenced tunes that have been played over the years, High Voltage, Babe Ruth, Rain.

yes theres been some gud uns over the years anyone remember the williams&watson cover up? you don`t get much mre rock influenced than the lamont cranston do ya

[ImberBoy]

"It used to be about dancing to things that divs didn't know about" Mr freemantle.................... you have summed up the northernsoul scene in 13 words. Gotta be the quote of the year, wish I'd said that.

[ImberBoy]

Wombat? Isn't that weapon of battalion anti tank?

[Steve G]

think the confusion over Crow being a rock record came about because Tony Cummings described it as such in Black Music magazine

[Pete S]

IT WAS DEFINATLY THE CROW YOUR ATUMN OF TOMORROW LOOKIN AT A TAPE LISTING IT WAS STEVE BOWMANS BROTHER COLIN FROM YORK WHO HAD IT,REMEMBER IT WAS A DESIGN TWO 4`S NEXT TO EACH OTHER WITH ONE ON TOP, HMMM IT GETS STRANGER!

Harry sorry but you're wrong, I'veseen the original press advertisement and it clearly states it's Sam Nesbit, the Crow wasn't even discovered for another 3 or 4 years after the 444 label was mooted

[Harry Crosby]

Harry sorry but you're wrong, I'veseen the original press advertisement and it clearly states it's Sam Nesbit, the Crow wasn't even discovered for another 3 or 4 years after the 444 label was mooted

YEH SPOKE TO THE LAD INVOLVED TURNED OUT IT WAS A MADE UP THING WITH THE 444 LABEL ON IT, IT WAS A LOT OF YEARS AGO 1979 I THINK, KNEW ABOUT THE SAM NESBITT, JUST REMEMBER SEEING THAT THANKS FOR THE INFO PETE

[ImberBoy]

THE CROW YOUR ATUMN OF TOMORROW

Never understood how a record like that could capture people's imagination so much, possibly the least "Northernsoul" sounding wax ever?

I don't agree with garethx that "They have the feel of classic Northern records: the intangible something which simply proclaims "Northern".

I think some records are "proclaimed" as "Northern" when they don't have the intangible something, not all of em, but certainly the "odd ball" ones?

It is a weird but it is a truth that if a track is played on the scene then it becomes part of the scene? "Curtis" How Can I tell her, definitely not a "Northern" sound but....... It is a "Northern"?

Dave's original observation in the form of the question "Where did all the pop come from?" is still to be answered because it is a paradox to the very corps values (if such a thing exists?) to what the rare soul scene is about.

Love the scene!! Mrs. Gilly get your house work done and stop reading this thread!!! Gilly wants his tea, oh by the way not letting Gilly come to Middleton the other week coz he had to look after your firkin dog is a poor excuse!!!! Enjoy your trip tp The Wheel on friday.

Today I will mostly be listening to "Trippin on your love" ..... Higher than the stars above....

This Saturday we are off to the Ritz Reunion.........

[Pete S]

"Pop" is in the ear of the beholder surely. Some will call Don't Pity Me (Joanie Sommers) pop, I call it a brilliant Northern Soul record. I don't call it a soul record because it's not, but it is Northern Soul. Two separate genres of music. Julian Covey "A little bit hurt", perfect Northern dancer. Not soul though. Chapter Five "You can't mean it" as good a stomper as has ever been made. Not soulo though. Dean Parrish "Determination" one of the best Northern Soul records ever made, but by a white bloke from Jersey, so not soul? I don't care if they are pop in some peoples opinions, they are great records, you slag me off for being blinkered against modern soul but that has less to do with Northern Soul than most of the pop records that people claim to dislike.

Don't be a sheep...

p.s. I love The Crow record

[Dave Thorley]

"Pop" is in the ear of the beholder surely. Some will call Don't Pity Me (Joanie Sommers) pop, I call it a brilliant Northern Soul record. I don't call it a soul record because it's not, but it is Northern Soul. Two separate genres of music. Julian Covey "A little bit hurt", perfect Northern dancer. Not soul though. Chapter Five "You can't mean it" as good a stomper as has ever been made. Not soulo though. Dean Parrish "Determination" one of the best Northern Soul records ever made, but by a white bloke from Jersey, so not soul? I don't care if they are pop in some peoples opinions, they are great records, you slag me off for being blinkered against modern soul but that has less to do with Northern Soul than most of the pop records that people claim to dislike.

Don't be a sheep...

p.s. I love The Crow record

Morning Pete

The original post to the tread was a question to ask where the origins of these types of records being played, was. That's all, not to make judegments, others on here may have but that wasn't the purpose of the original post.

Have many tunes like this myself and love them and I have always seen them as a dynamic part of the Northern Soul. But equally, as the scene is mainly based around soul music, it is a valid question to ask. The scene from the early days has drapped it's self in black inconology, the black fist used by Internation Soul Club being one example. Yet we have played tunes that clearly aren't soul, they do have a great dancing beat, a feelgood factor, and as you imply fit well.

I've loved the scene from mid teens and this love has driven an interest in what went before I was older enough to attend. it's just like hearing a record by a group from 1968 and then wondering what they recorded before that.

Dave

[Pete S]

Morning Pete

The original post to the tread was a question to ask where the origins of these types of records being played, was.

Sorry Dave.

[Dave Thorley]

Today I will mostly be listening to "Trippin on your love" ..... Higher than the stars above....

This Saturday we are off to the Ritz Reunion.........

Which version!!!!!

[spot]

It used to just be about dancing...

My thoughts exactly. Surely most Pop music of the sixties was infact copies & rip offs of Black music, just look at Bill Haley, Elvis, Rolling Stones, Beatles & many more.

Frank are we really bothered who "Wombat" is/was or why he had a silly name? I just wanted to dance to it cos it was a shit hot dancer & still is but I doubt if I could manage the full record now.

Simon, I'm with you on the "Crow", it never really did it for me either, I just think it was a tune of the era, right place,right time,right drugs!!!! By the way mate we're at Skeggy this weekend so won't see you but you have a good one.

So in answer to your original question Dave, it came from the Black artists & writers, Yes I know thats NOT what you meant.

Take care & be safe & just "Keep on dancing",

Spot.

ps.LOVE, High Voltage, Babe Ruth & Frankie Valli's "I'm gonna change" is better than Velours, IMO.

[Billy Freemantle]

Morning Pete

The scene from the early days has drapped it's self in black inconology, the black fist used by Internation Soul Club being one example.

I'm assuming that you mean iconology, here, Dave. But do you really think that when people wore driving gloves at The Wheel and the Torch that they were somehow coming out in sympathy with the Black Panthers? I very much doubt it. I cannot remember having a single conversation about African American politics. This just was not how it was.

The history of pop music as opposed to classical music is the history of African- American music from the very first Okeh blues recordings right up to Akon. So it is unavoidably the music of all those who want to listen to any music other than classical music. This includes those who want to dance.

When what came to be known as Northern Soul began ,the danceable music around was the sound of young America and the sound of those white groups and artists who either copied or were influenced by that sound. That sound had an authentic 'down-home' soul side and a lighter 'novelty' side. As with any categorisation there will be examples there are clearly one or the other and examples which are bit of one and bit of the other. This was no different to how it was in the early decades of the 20th century; except then in was 'real' as opposed to 'novelty' blues.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Billy Freemantle

[ImberBoy]

Dave my like is Trippin' On Your Love - Staple Singers, I have heard A Way Of Life Trippin On Your Love but not Kenny Thomas? I take it he did a version?? Top track..... the intro is a bit long windid , reminds me of I don't want to see my self by Terry Callier?

[Tony Smith]

Has anyone mentioned the fab Bob Kuban, does Geoff remember it being played in London in 65-66!

[Geoff]

Has anyone mentioned the fab Bob Kuban, does Geoff remember it being played in London in 65-66!

Hi Tony,

I didn't actually hear this one played at the time, heard it much later, probably in the 80s, from compilation LPs and on the radio.

It all depended where you went, just as nowadays. I can only remember a fraction of what was played, but every now and then I hear something that rings a bell for me.

The Cheater is a great record imo, would have loved to dance to it in my youth.

[spot]

Wombat? Isn't that weapon of battalion anti tank?

Actually Simon it's an Australian marsupial mammal about the size of a badger & much less dangerous than your definition mate.

Take care & be safe,

Spot.

[Northern Soul Uk]

Let me know when the next one is and I'll try and make it!

Funnily enough, there was a Paul Anka visit earlier this year which co-incided with the release of the Northern Soul Story series I did for Sony-BMG - Paul Anka was the lead track on the Wigan Casino volume. So, at the time, I saw that Paul Anka was going to be on This Morning or a similar show, so I did send an e-mail to the show to see if they could ask him about his Northern Soul records, which I think would have made a nice chat subject.

But no cigar. Just an auto e-mail response which is par for the course these days LOL.

Ian D

Hi Ian, just wondering, do you think that if they had have asked Paul Anka about his northern Soul records, he would have known what they were talking about? Does he know that some of his recordings were massive on the Northern scene? Many of the American artistes didn't have a clue that their otherwise dead records had been caned in the UK. I have heard many a story of artist coming over here to perform at Northern venues, and having to listen the tracks that they were going to perform before they went on stage, as they had forgotten the words, and were duely suprized that the audience that they were playing to knew the tracks word for word and in many cases, better than they did

[Guest in town Mikey]

Taking a guess, and prepared to be shot down.

The USA charts were pretty segregated for a long time. But that didnt stop the more switched on record companies putting out stuff for the white kids trawling the 'black hits' for songs that would work well for their artists. So while not wanting to target the black audience in a segregated country, rather than get the Isleys say, they'd take a nice number from them and give it to say Dean Parrish who had 'that style' of voice. But was white so easier to get onto pop shows.

I read somewhere that Elvis' favorite singer was Jackie Wilson. So within the industry, certainly the better songs would have been known by producers targetting the white market.

By the time of the de-segregation of audences at dance halls and concert venues in many Northern states in the mid to late sixties the lines had become completely blurred. Songs sounding black were covers by white artists. Probably because of the emerging success of Motown, Atlantic and Stax, so the record companies would want to get some of the black dollar as well. They just had to be a little more surrepticious in their dealings, ie having 'specalist' lables owned by their company.

Add to this a 'local' hit in the USA could mean an artist sold the kind of numbers of records that a succesful record might in the UK. Local hits were trawled by top DJs like Alan Freed, and played to a mass audience. So a relatively minor hit like Compared To What (no idea on the groups ethnic origins), or Human Beinz (probably white) Nobody But Me, while not being national hits, would be known over a far wider area than originally.

Songs we think in the UK, like the above 2 I mention while not being particularly well known over here, are a lot more popular than we imagine Stateside.

Also, imagine not knowing the Isleys where black. Didnt Motown release an album in the Southern USA with white people on the cover, as having black people on there would have resulted in some stores refusing to sell the records?

Imagine then, guys from the UK trawling through warehouses of records with little or no idea of the groups background, and any info they may have found could have been lies, just to get the black artists into shops that wouldnt normally sell them, or the white singers into shops that were purely for the chittlin circuit (I think it was called). They could pick up a Dean Parrish song, amid Stax, Fame etc recordings, and would just assume that Dean was black. It knocked me bandy when I found out therwise. But of course it had absolutly nil difference to my loving his records.

Edited December 4, 2007 by in town Mikey

[Pete S]

Also, imagine not knowing the Isleys where black. Didnt Motown release an album in the Southern USA with white people on the cover, as having black people on there would have resulted in some stores refusing to sell the records?

They released them over here like that too - the Isleys "This old heart of mine" album has two white youngsters on a sunny beach, Jr Walkers "Road runner" has a cartoon cover, and so on

[Guest in town Mikey]

I could have been more concise and just say the rotten record companies deliberately blurred the lines so they could get into each others markets, meaning anyone finding a track by an artist unknown to them at that time, could have been made by a person of any colour. To most ofus nowadays it doesnt matter, but back in a segegated USA, it made a whole world of difference to many.

[Geoff]

I'm not sure you are entirely correct about segregation in pop music. There were pop, country and western and rhythm and blues charts (in Billboard and Cashbox I think). During the 50s Elvis Presley, Bill Haley, Carl Perkins and Jerry Lee Lewis had hits in all 3 charts.

Little Richard, Fats Domino, Larry Williams, Jackie Wilson and many other black rock'n'roll/rhythm and blues singers had hits in the pop charts as well as the R&B ones.

As far as I know the earliest black record (in an R&B mode) to get in the pop charts in the USA was the Orioles version of Crying In The Chapel. It is possible that the Dominoes' 60 Minute Man got in the pop charts, 51 or 52.

There were attempts to cover rock'n'roll hits by Pat Boone and others, but they were swept aside when the teenagers of the time heard the originals by Fats Domino (Ain't That A Shame) and Little Richard (Tutti Frutti and Long Tall Sally) and others.

In the early 60s Brook Benton was one of the biggest stars prior to the "British invasion". Certainly some of his records then wouldn't sound out of place at an R&B night now, imo.

There were certainly problems when package tours were in the segregated southern states, but black singers on independent labels did get in the US charts.

Did anybody buying the Isley Brothers Motown records not know they were black? Surely not, they'd appeared on Ready Steady Go earlier plugging their then current release The Last Girl.

Going back to the original question of the thread, I am sure it was just records DJs reckoned would fit in with the other sounds they were playing.

[bri phill]

When I started on this scene Jan 67 the wheel was playing stuff such as The Cheater,Trampoline,This Hammer,When I come home,the Mitch ryder stuff and probably a few more "poppy" records I can't just think off at the allniters,but all great dance records and not too well known.

The scene was changing and a more uptempo soul sound was prefered by the younger crowd and the increased consumption of amphetimes ,we used to call it Rhythm and soul.

Later when I started DJing there I introduced Nobody but me, You get your kicks,You're ready now(originally I played Bobby Bennet)then found FrankieValli's version,Queen of fools , not my favourites but all brilliant dance tunes and huge at the time(although these records could have previously been played prior to 67).The scene wasn't as purist then and the empasis was more on dancing having a great time and playing stuff you couldn't hear in every other club.The pop-soul crossovers continued Ghost in my house,Paul Anka and lots more I haven't got time to mention.

[Geoff]

When I started on this scene Jan 67 the wheel was playing stuff such as The Cheater,Trampoline,This Hammer,When I come home,the Mitch ryder stuff and probably a few more "poppy" records I can't just think off at the allniters,but all great dance records and not too well known.

I think "great dance records" sums it up.

[Ian Dewhirst]

When I started on this scene Jan 67 the wheel was playing stuff such as The Cheater,Trampoline,This Hammer,When I come home,the Mitch ryder stuff and probably a few more "poppy" records I can't just think off at the allniters,but all great dance records and not too well known.

The scene was changing and a more uptempo soul sound was prefered by the younger crowd and the increased consumption of amphetimes ,we used to call it Rhythm and soul.

Later when I started DJing there I introduced Nobody but me, You get your kicks,You're ready now(originally I played Bobby Bennet)then found FrankieValli's version,Queen of fools , not my favourites but all brilliant dance tunes and huge at the time(although these records could have previously been played prior to 67).The scene wasn't as purist then and the empasis was more on dancing having a great time and playing stuff you couldn't hear in every other club.The pop-soul crossovers continued Ghost in my house,Paul Anka and lots more I haven't got time to mention.

Hi Brian,

Long time no see! Hope you're well mate and I guess the beard's grey now LOL!

Best,

Ian "Frank" Dewhirst

[bri phill]

Hi Brian,

Long time no see! Hope you're well mate and I guess the beard's grey now LOL!

Best,

Ian "Frank" Dewhirst

Hi Ian, Yeah I'm good, cheers Brianyou too I hope,got a good hairdresser keeps touching my barnet up so I can go to all the young clubs as well(like making a fool of myself) cheers Brian

[FrankM]

Also, imagine not knowing the Isleys were black. Didn't Motown release an album in the Southern USA with white people on the cover, as having black people on there would have resulted in some stores refusing to sell the records?

All record companies did his but there were no special covers made for the southern states. I think we've discussed this before so The Supemes had a photograph

and Martha and the Vandellas had a cartoon cover

[pikeys dog]

All record companies did his but there were no special covers made for the southern states. I think we've discussed this before so The Supemes had a photograph

withdrawn as they thought that it made the Supremes look like Hookers sat on the bar stools....

[pikeys dog]

Loads of Motown albums had Cartoon covers...

Miracles had Mickeys Monkey with a cartoon ape on, but albums either side had pictures of the group on.

A marketing ploy to appeal to the younger buyers?

[Guest ScooterNik]

withdrawn as they thought that it made the Supremes look like Hookers sat on the bar stools....

Didn't one of them marry the boss or something?

[Guest]

Nope. "Smoke Your Troubles Away" was by the Glass Family on Earhole Records.

And this is a rare soul forum isn't it, hence the perfectly valid question as to whether there may be any other records on the Inner Ear label? If you're not interested, then maybe don't read the thread!

So we're still down to whether the Crow were a black or white band? Likewise World Column....

Ian D

Fukc me i was half right wasnt i and world column black white mixed whatever not bothered i love the record,but they sound ethnic so there.

[Prophonics 2029]

Dean ain't no Crow, his feet are too big.

Geoff sandwich looks very nice, Fact.

[Jim G]

Intersting thread this and it serves as a reminder of how well informed we are today and we can 'google' practically anyhting and find the answer in seconds.

Not so way back when the whole 'scene' started. Getting info about artists, black or white, especially if their records were on US labels, was almost impossible.

Many 'pop' records were played cos they souunded 'right'. Factor in the crappy sounds systems in clubs, so if it as sounded good then a record had a chance. Then factor in DJ' hunting for new records, cover ups etc and it was invetiable 'pop' records would get played.

To my knowledge (and I only went to Torch, Pendulum, Leeds Central, Mecca, Blue Room, Casino and other smaller venues) no one set out to play them as a strategy, they were just part of the evolution of the scene.

Yes, on relfection one could say 'why' but we are geniuses with hindsight.