Where Did All The Pop Come From

[Dave Thorley]

Hi All

Reading the 'Touch of Velvet' tread, had me wondering. The scene has always has an element of Pop/Soul crossover tunes being played, i.e

Frankie Valli-The night/Touch the rainchild/You ready now/I'm gonna change, Wayne Gibson-Under my thumb, Javells-Goodbye nothing to say, Joey Dee-It's got you, Spencer Davis Group-Gimmie some lovin'/Trampoline, Liz Damon's Orient Express-You're falling in love, Buckinghams-Don't you care, etc, etc

Of the early founding clubs, Torch, Wheel, Cats, Juction was there one that played this type of sound more than the others. Flip side was there one club that was more black in it's playlist. I'm guessing that this type of sound was a hang over from the 60's mod days, that got included in the early northern scene and so stuck.

[Simon M]

I was told the 60's london mods were just into black music ? .. Marriot being a real train -spotter of USA imports ?

Edited November 26, 2007 by Simon M

[Geoff]

In the original Mod era some pop records were played in clubs, because they had the right sound to fit in with the R&B/Soul records more generally played. Phil Spector's hits were played, although you could say they were definitely on the fringes of soul.

I recently did a CD of Mod sounds for an SS member and included the following pop tracks that were played in the clubs I frequented: Everly Brothers' Price Of Love; Kingsmen's Jolly Green Giant; Ronnie & The Daytonas' Little GTO; Jewel Akens' Birds And The Bees, etc.

Others I remember were the Vogues' You're The One; Lou Christie's Lightning Strikes (and possibly Two Faces Have I and The Gypsy Cried); Beach Boys' Barbara Ann (possibly others by them) and the Loving Spoonful's Do You Believe In Magic. Definitely others were played but it was a long time ago.

Most of these were tracks you could dance to, and, no doubt, the DJs liked them. And that might be the main reason, DJs preference.

Never heard Beatles or Stones, etc played in the clubs, but were played in dance halls, e.g. Tottenham Royal.

[Simon M]

Perhaps those old mods I knew were the chin strokers of the 60's

[Geoff]

Perhaps those old mods I knew were the chin strokers of the 60's

Yes, they could be. I used to go and ask the DJ what the records were then, just as I do now.

I suppose it depended on what clubs you went to. Personally never minded what was played if it fitted together okay, just like now. Heard a few blue eyed tracks recently that I wouldn't mind getting.

[ImberBoy]

Is there a "Black Sound"? Is there a "Pop Sound"?

I am quite certain no one ever makes a record to fail? The idea of a hand full of poor black folks singing their hearts out in Detroit is romantic but I kinda suspect that there weren't many who didn't do it as an escape route? Ergo all records are pop records..... Aren't they? Dave Rimmer told me that, thanks Dave.

There are a zillion reasons a record doesn't succeed and nothing what so ever to do with whether its "Good" or "Bad".

So is there any difference, apart from the imagined or intellectually implied, in the sound of say ...... Frankie Valli-The night and The Phonetics - Just a Boys Dream?

We are not talking about personal preferences, some like marmite some fookin hate it but marmite remains a constant. (I fookin luv it by the way)

The flip side was always a second choice and carefully crafted at times so as to not spoil a follow up single, not always but often the case.

To have a club in the 6Ts just play flip sides doesn't make sense unless the punter is a sudo-intellectual trendy student type who is making a statement, lets face it a club doesn't open its doors to fail it has to sell drinks and charge an entrance fee?

I believe that clubs like The Torch, Wheel, Cats, Junction all saw a niche that could be filled, nothing sinister in that but also not as purest as we give credit. Wigan Casino was a massive success, yes there was a bed rock of rare soul but there was also a mass of disillusioned music lovers cringing at TOTPS every week.

Its great to take the high ground when comparing our scene to other musical genres and scenes, I think we are the longest lived? But "Where Did All The Pop Come From", Dave I don't know?

Better ask Those at PYE Records, EMI, or ask Ian Levine and Russ Winstanley.

[Guest nusha]

Original Mod Scene and Northern Soul are related in thier fascination for Americana.All mods thought the BEACH BOYS were great and colour didnt count in the adulation of Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels.It was years before anyone found out that Rufus Lumbly or Dean Parrish were white but we knew(suspected) that Micky Lee Lane/Okaysions and Shades Of Blue were.All music is fused and no music is pure

[Guest malayka]

Is there a "Black Sound"? Is there a "Pop Sound"?

I am quite certain no one ever makes a record to fail? The idea of a hand full of poor black folks singing their hearts out in Detroit is romantic but I kinda suspect that there weren't many who didn't do it as an escape route? Ergo all records are pop records..... Aren't they? Dave Rimmer told me that, thanks Dave.

There are a zillion reasons a record doesn't succeed and nothing what so ever to do with whether its "Good" or "Bad".

So is there any difference, apart from the imagined or intellectually implied, in the sound of say ...... Frankie Valli-The night and The Phonetics - Just a Boys Dream?

We are not talking about personal preferences, some like marmite some fookin hate it but marmite remains a constant. (I fookin luv it by the way)

The flip side was always a second choice and carefully crafted at times so as to not spoil a follow up single, not always but often the case.

To have a club in the 6Ts just play flip sides doesn't make sense unless the punter is a sudo-intellectual trendy student type who is making a statement, lets face it a club doesn't open its doors to fail it has to sell drinks and charge an entrance fee?

I believe that clubs like The Torch, Wheel, Cats, Junction all saw a niche that could be filled, nothing sinister in that but also not as purest as we give credit. Wigan Casino was a massive success, yes there was a bed rock of rare soul but there was also a mass of disillusioned music lovers cringing at TOTPS every week.

Its great to take the high ground when comparing our scene to other musical genres and scenes, I think we are the longest lived? But "Where Did All The Pop Come From", Dave I don't know?

Better ask Those at PYE Records, EMI, or ask Ian Levine and Russ Winstanley.

Maybe I asked the question wrongly. But there was a bunch of records played in the early days of the scene that were recorded as pop records, by mainly white artists, and made to sell to a mainly white middle class audiance. But due to the beat, they got got played on the northern soul scene. I was interested in finding out was there one club in particular that played that sound more.

I wasn't making any judgement about their quality or suitability for the scene.

As for black people not making records for a black audiance only (hence a black sound) thats nonesense, although this really didn't happen to the 70's. How do I know this the artists thenselves have told me so in many conversation I have had with people in the business in the U.S. (PS, no one has ever implied I'm intellectual before).

By the early 70's the black community had grown to have it's own identity, and in some areas wealth and was a larger enough audience, that products could be marketed directly to them. With the addition of the black conscious movement and later black power, some artists went out of their way to make records that white people wouldn't get or like.

[Dave Thorley]

The above Malayka post is of course from me Used the wrong computer to reply again

[Dave Thorley]

Maybe I asked the question wrongly. But there was a bunch of records played in the early days of the scene that were recorded as pop records, by mainly white artists, and made to sell to a mainly white middle class audiance. But due to the beat, they got got played on the northern soul scene. I was interested in finding out was there one club in particular that played that sound more.

I wasn't making any judgement about their quality or suitability for the scene.

As for black people not making records for a black audiance only (hence a black sound) thats nonesense, although this really didn't happen to the 70's. How do I know this, the artists themselves have told me so in many conversation I have had with people in the business in the U.S. (PS, no one has ever implied I'm intellectual before).

By the early 70's the black community had grown to have it's own identity, and in some areas wealth and was a larger enough audience, that products could be marketed directly to them. With the addition of the black conscious movement and later black power, some artists went out of their way to make records that white people wouldn't get or like.

[FrankM]

sell to a mainly white middle class audiance

Were the working classes too poor to buy records?

[jocko]

Maybe I asked the question wrongly. But there was a bunch of records played in the early days of the scene that were recorded as pop records, by mainly white artists, and made to sell to a mainly white middle class audiance. But due to the beat, they got got played on the northern soul scene. I was interested in finding out was there one club in particular that played that sound more.

I wasn't making any judgement about their quality or suitability for the scene.

No Dave I think you asked a very interesting question and was very clearly worded, just as usual you get somebody who has obviously not read it spouting a lot of uninformed nonsense that is more about them getting their voice heard.

Geoff alluded to some bit of an answer, not sure how many more were around in the 60's, one thing I wondered was the availability of the actual music not quite difficult, therefore for the non major venues would they possibly play more pop due to not having main name DJ's, or Geoff are you saying its always been there in all the main clubs?

Like Dave not making any judgements but it is one of the genuinely most interesting questions on here for a while,.

[Philb]

Maybe I asked the question wrongly. But there was a bunch of records played in the early days of the scene that were recorded as pop records, by mainly white artists, and made to sell to a mainly white middle class audiance. But due to the beat, they got got played on the northern soul scene. I was interested in finding out was there one club in particular that played that sound more.

I wasn't making any judgement about their quality or suitability for the scene.

As for black people not making records for a black audiance only (hence a black sound) thats nonesense, although this really didn't happen to the 70's. How do I know this the artists thenselves have told me so in many conversation I have had with people in the business in the U.S. (PS, no one has ever implied I'm intellectual before).

By the early 70's the black community had grown to have it's own identity, and in some areas wealth and was a larger enough audience, that products could be marketed directly to them. With the addition of the black conscious movement and later black power, some artists went out of their way to make records that white people wouldn't get or like.

This question will be answered if you read the book titled "Just My Soul Responding" by Brian Ward,

[Garethx]

Definitely one of the most interesting questions posed here for a long time, Dave.

Many of the pop records played at any time of the scene have simply worked on the dancefloor and have to be considered in that context above any other. They have the feel of classic Northern records: the intangible something which simply proclaims "Northern".

I suppose at the heart of it all has been the central idea that deejays played whatever worked. On a basic level that has meant playing whatever made people want to dance and keep on dancing. On a less basic level is the idea of not only making people dance, but giving them that indefinable flavour which made the classic Northern scene different and special. Pop sounds have always been part of that flavour; I don't know if it's possible to pin down a specific time when they were 'introduced' to the scene: as Geoff says above they have always had a place on the underground club scene. That is an inescapable fact.

I used to be quite po-faced about sticking to the "soul-only" template (I still do in buying records I suppose) but my stance on Northern-sounding Pop as a customer in a club has softened considerably over the years. Some inclusions still puzzle me, however. I wasn't around when, for example, Bobby Jason "Wall To Wall Heartaches" was first played, so it's never really made sense to me as a record. I don't think it would get spun today if it were completely undiscovered: similarly "Touch The Rainchild".

There are scores of records which have come to make complete sense to me in a Northern Soul context: among these I include Dana Valery, Cajun Hart, Robert John on A&M, Pieces of Eight, Lynne Randell and many more, along with various Embers records (although I suppose these are strictly Carolinas Soul or Blue-Eyed Soul as opposed to straight pop, maybe an important distinction) and other Beach type sounds. Current big spins by the likes of Johnny Praye and Louis Paul seem to fit in also.

It's interesting to me how this topic might reflect the one on Northern Soul and its interaction with funk which came up a few weeks ago. Just as records with a funk flavour have been part of the scene for decades (The Montclairs, Boby Franklin, Lou Pride, The Crow etc.) so records with a pronounced pop flavour have been part of that lineage from even further back: "You're Ready Now" is just as much a part of the blueprint of Northern Soul as "A Little Togetherness" or "That Beating Rhythm".

Like I said on the funk topic it's just the size of that proportion which changes, and that's down to fashion. There have been times when the number of pop records played has seemed to increase (1977 Wigan, for example) and I'm sure there are currently unknown monsters lurking in collections which happen to be failed pop records by white artists from both UK and USA. It's the way it's always been and probably always will be. And there's nothing wrong with that.

The sounds which have gone to make up the Northern Soul scene have always been diverse: there's no getting around that and maybe it's a huge part of its' appeal.

Edited November 27, 2007 by garethx

[Guest nusha]

The Crow is Clearly a hard Rock record as was ELUSIVE by Babe Ruth,Gettin On Life by WOMBAT etc.How did these slip the net to join poppy bedfellows Gayle Garnett/Paul Anka/April Stevens/Dean Courtney etc.Add The Jazz of Ramsey Lewis/Case of Tyme/Earl Wright/Rat Race to the C/W of Lindy Stevens/Brenda Lee/Charlie Gracie/Barbara Mills and you have a pretty clear case that Northern Soul is more about the appreciation of Americana than out and out Black American Music.

[Pete S]

It used to just be about dancing...

[Billy Freemantle]

It used to just be about dancing...

No. it didn't ( and you know it didn't). It used to be about dancing to things that divs didn't know about.

[Dave Thorley]

The Crow is Clearly a hard Rock record as was ELUSIVE by Babe Ruth,Gettin On Life by WOMBAT etc.How did these slip the net to join poppy bedfellows Gayle Garnett/Paul Anka/April Stevens/Dean Courtney etc.Add The Jazz of Ramsey Lewis/Case of Tyme/Earl Wright/Rat Race to the C/W of Lindy Stevens/Brenda Lee/Charlie Gracie/Barbara Mills and you have a pretty clear case that Northern Soul is more about the appreciation of Americana than out and out Black American Music.

I agree with the fact that Babe Ruth was a rock group. But The Crow, never in this world, as deep a street funk tune as you are ever gonna find. I'm sure I've seen a photo somewhere of the group and they were a real ghetto looking crowd, a bit like early 70's photos of War.

I have to say I've always had a soft spot for some of the more rock influenced tunes that have been played over the years, High Voltage, Babe Ruth, Rain.

[Ian Dewhirst]

The Crow is Clearly a hard Rock record as was ELUSIVE by Babe Ruth,Gettin On Life by WOMBAT etc.How did these slip the net to join poppy bedfellows Gayle Garnett/Paul Anka/April Stevens/Dean Courtney etc.Add The Jazz of Ramsey Lewis/Case of Tyme/Earl Wright/Rat Race to the C/W of Lindy Stevens/Brenda Lee/Charlie Gracie/Barbara Mills and you have a pretty clear case that Northern Soul is more about the appreciation of Americana than out and out Black American Music.

Now Wombat. There's an interesting record. Almost worth runnng a seperate thread about. I've often spent many a night when I've been bored wondering whatever became of Wombat, so several questions whilst we're on pop thread:-

1) Who was Wombat?

2) Is there any reason why he was called Wombat?

3) What is a Wombat anyway?

4) I actually think "Getting On Life" is a great record in it's own way - thought provoking lyrics, bizarre

arrangement and a frenetic production, so were there any other releases from Wombat?

5) A ZTSC collectors record but who was it originally aimed at? The Detroit C&W scene?

Ah the rich tapestry of Northern Soul. Doncha just love it.

And surely Paul Anka's "Can't Help Loving You" must be the greatest Northern Soul pop record mustn't it?

Where did it all come from? I reckon from a golden era when real musicians, arrangers, orchestras and producers used to go in a studio and actually play their hearts out on, like, real instruments LOL!

Ian D

[Dave Thorley]

Were the working classes too poor to buy records?

In the exsplosion of 60's marketing the working class, was seen to be a social economic group with little spending power. The term 'White middle class' along with a whole bunch of other social groupings were developed for marketing purposes.

My dad used to say proudly that we were working class and if we were, then yes there wasn't much money around to buy anything other than food, cloths etc. Lived well, but extra's like toys, bikes etc were often second hand.

But this is splitting hairs, just interested in finding out more about the very early days of the northern soul scene in this country and how it developed, as I was too young to be there.

[Geoff]

Geoff alluded to some bit of an answer, not sure how many more were around in the 60's, one thing I wondered was the availability of the actual music not quite difficult, therefore for the non major venues would they possibly play more pop due to not having main name DJ's, or Geoff are you saying its always been there in all the main clubs?

On the question of the availability of the music, I assume availability of records is what you're asking. Records didn't get deleted so quickly, therefore you could find older records (e.g. Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, etc) fairly easily I think. Also there was a lot of re-issues taking place, partly because of the burgeoning interest in R&B in the music press and also the Mersey boom, based in part on covering originals. Current releases were played, Guy Stevens had the Sue label, plus American records certainly found there way into the clubs before release over here.

I think the DJs played what they thought would fit in, keep people dancing, and no doubt had there personal preferences. I don't recall pop records as such being played at the Flamingo, I'm sure they played Georgie Fame's Yeh Yeh, but he was a resident there for ages, but the Flamingo was slightly different from La Discotheque, Last Chance and Scene. More live acts at the Flamingo than anything else if I recall correctly.

Is it possible that nowadays we are more "politically correct" about what should be played? In the long run, it's about having a good time at a night out, and if a pop record is played that fits in, where is the harm in it?

[Dave Thorley]

On the question of the availability of the music, I assume availability of records is what you're asking. Records didn't get deleted so quickly, therefore you could find older records (e.g. Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, etc) fairly easily I think. Also there was a lot of re-issues taking place, partly because of the burgeoning interest in R&B in the music press and also the Mersey boom, based in part on covering originals. Current releases were played, Guy Stevens had the Sue label, plus American records certainly found there way into the clubs before release over here.

I think the DJs played what they thought would fit in, keep people dancing, and no doubt had there personal preferences. I don't recall pop records as such being played at the Flamingo, I'm sure they played Georgie Fame's Yeh Yeh, but he was a resident there for ages, but the Flamingo was slightly different from La Discotheque, Last Chance and Scene. More live acts at the Flamingo than anything else if I recall correctly.

Is it possible that nowadays we are more "politically correct" about what should be played? In the long run, it's about having a good time at a night out, and if a pop record is played that fits in, where is the harm in it?

Hi Geoff

Tread got off to a bit of a rocky start, but all this is interesting, thanks. Me love to hear tunes like Jay & The Americans-Got hung up along the way, every now and then. As Ian D said all goes to make up the rich tapestry of the scene we have.

[Geoff]

And surely Paul Anka's "Can't Help Loving You" must be the greatest Northern Soul pop record mustn't it?

Where did it all come from? I reckon from a golden era when real musicians, arrangers, orchestras and producers used to go in a studio and actually play their hearts out on, like, real instruments LOL!

Hi Ian,

Sorry you didn't get to the TOS reunion, I'd like to have had a chat with you.

I suspect that Can't Help Loving You was recorded around the time when a lot of white artistes were trying to have hits by producing their versions of a sort of Motown sound, e.g. Len Barry's 1-2-3 and Like A Baby (although to be fair to Len he'd been the lead singer of the Dovells who made some good uptempo doowop tracks, Bristol Stomp, You Can't Sit Down, etc.); the Newbeats' Run Baby Run; the Four Seasons' Let's Hang On; can't think of others at the moment, I'm at work so don't have access to my reference books.

And it wasn't that long ago that Paul Anka had been one of the biggest pop teen idols in the USA, loads of hits. No reason why he wouldn't have a go at an ersatz soul record, after all everyone wants a hit, and being a comparatively young guy he may well have liked Motown and other soul labels. He was on a Radio 4 programme just a week or 2 ago, wish it had been a phone in because I might have tried to get through to ask him about it, or has someone done that already?

When was Queen Of Fools recorded? Barbara Mills was probably trying for a hit with the current successful sounds that were getting into the charts in the states.

There must have been loads of similar records over there that we've never heard about.

[Ian Dewhirst]

In the exsplosion of 60's marketing the working class, was seen to be a social economic group with little spending power. The term 'White middle class' along with a whole bunch of other social groupings were developed for marketing purposes.

My dad used to say proudly that we were working class and if we were, then yes there wasn't much money around to buy anything other than food, cloths etc. Lived well, but extra's like toys, bikes etc were often second hand.

But this is splitting hairs, just interested in finding out more about the very early days of the northern soul scene in this country and how it developed, as I was too young to be there.

Actually when I was re-researching the Wheel era for an album, I was surprised at the amount of live UK white acts the Wheel, the Bag O Nails, the Scene and other early to mid 60's clubs used to put on - John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, the Spencer Davis Band, Long John Baldry, The Animals, Georgie Fame & The Blue-Flames, Them (with Van Morrison) etc, etc from memory.

Also, as Rob Moss mentioned the other week, when you look at the Beatles first album it was chock full of covers by Smokey Robinson, the Marvelettes and the Isley Brothers, so the lines were a lot more blurred back then - there seemed to be a much greater fertilization between Pop, RnB and Soul as evidenced by things like Dusty Springfield hosting the Motown show.....

By all accounts, Pop and Soul used to easy bedfellows at one time. My feeling is that towards the middle to end of the 60's when faster U.S. 'unknown' records started to get programmed more regularly, mainly at the Wheel, that's when many of the more Poppy records got dropped in favour of the more exotic cousins from across the Atlantic. And eventually a sort of inverse snobbery snuck-in (of which I used to be one of the worst) where Pop was considered second-choice to real soul.

Maybe a couple of older readers could be a bit more definitive....?

Ian D

[Geoff]

Tread got off to a bit of a rocky start, but all this is interesting, thanks. Me love to hear tunes like Jay & The Americans-Got hung up along the way, every now and then. As Ian D said all goes to make up the rich tapestry of the scene we have.

Hi Dave,

Jay & The Americans are one of my favourite white pop groups, only got compilations of them, but so good, both slow and uptempo. I understand Living Above My Head was played on the NS scene, always liked that, but didn't hear it out in the 60s, but everything depends on where you went to.

Absolutely agree about the rich tapestry of the scene, diversity helps keep it interesting.

[KevH]

Now Wombat. There's an interesting record. Almost worth runnng a seperate thread about. I've often spent many a night when I've been bored wondering whatever became of Wombat, so several questions whilst we're on pop thread:-

1) Who was Wombat?

2) Is there any reason why he was called Wombat?

3) What is a Wombat anyway?

4) I actually think "Getting On Life" is a great record in it's own way - thought provoking lyrics, bizarre

arrangement and a frenetic production, so were there any other releases from Wombat?

5) A ZTSC collectors record but who was it originally aimed at? The Detroit C&W scene?

Ah the rich tapestry of Northern Soul. Doncha just love it.

And surely Paul Anka's "Can't Help Loving You" must be the greatest Northern Soul pop record mustn't it?

Where did it all come from? I reckon from a golden era when real musicians, arrangers, orchestras and producers used to go in a studio and actually play their hearts out on, like, real instruments LOL!

Ian D

Hi IAN,in answer to you points...........

1-always thought Wombat were a group?

2-cos he was an ugly mother?

3-marsupial native to OZ?.You never watched Tingha and Tucker?????

4-agree,great for its time,one for the dancers,trippy record.

5-aimed at the surf/student/garage community?,hence trippy.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi Ian,

Sorry you didn't get to the TOS reunion, I'd like to have had a chat with you.

I suspect that Can't Help Loving You was recorded around the time when a lot of white artistes were trying to have hits by producing their versions of a sort of Motown sound, e.g. Len Barry's 1-2-3 and Like A Baby (although to be fair to Len he'd been the lead singer of the Dovells who made some good uptempo doowop tracks, Bristol Stomp, You Can't Sit Down, etc.); the Newbeats' Run Baby Run; the Four Seasons' Let's Hang On; can't think of others at the moment, I'm at work so don't have access to my reference books.

And it wasn't that long ago that Paul Anka had been one of the biggest pop teen idols in the USA, loads of hits. No reason why he wouldn't have a go at an ersatz soul record, after all everyone wants a hit, and being a comparatively young guy he may well have liked Motown and other soul labels. He was on a Radio 4 programme just a week or 2 ago, wish it had been a phone in because I might have tried to get through to ask him about it, or has someone done that already?

When was Queen Of Fools recorded? Barbara Mills was probably trying for a hit with the current successful sounds that were getting into the charts in the states.

There must have been loads of similar records over there that we've never heard about.

Let me know when the next one is and I'll try and make it!

Funnily enough, there was a Paul Anka visit earlier this year which co-incided with the release of the Northern Soul Story series I did for Sony-BMG - Paul Anka was the lead track on the Wigan Casino volume. So, at the time, I saw that Paul Anka was going to be on This Morning or a similar show, so I did send an e-mail to the show to see if they could ask him about his Northern Soul records, which I think would have made a nice chat subject.

But no cigar. Just an auto e-mail response which is par for the course these days LOL.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Hi IAN,in answer to you points...........

1-always thought Wombat were a group?

2-cos he was an ugly mother?

3-marsupial native to OZ?.You never watched Tingha and Tucker?????

4-agree,great for its time,one for the dancers,trippy record.

5-aimed at the surf/student/garage community?,hence trippy.

Thanks Kev!

Can I be the first to set up a Wombat appreciation society?

I want pics of Wombat, I want unreleased material and I want a mint Gemni white copy for further research purposes!

Ian D

[Billy Freemantle]

Actually when I was re-researching the Wheel era for an album, I was surprised at the amount of live UK white acts the Wheel, the Bag O Nails, the Scene and other early to mid 60's clubs used to put on - John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, the Spencer Davis Band, Long John Baldry, The Animals, Georgie Fame & The Blue-Flames, Them (with Van Morrison) etc, etc from memory.

Insofar as The Wheel is concerned, this is only true of Brazennose Street. When the venue changed to Whitworth St, the music policy changed to Soul rather than just R&B.

[Geoff]

Actually when I was re-researching the Wheel era for an album, I was surprised at the amount of live UK white acts the Wheel, the Bag O Nails, the Scene and other early to mid 60's clubs used to put on - John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, the Spencer Davis Band, Long John Baldry, The Animals, Georgie Fame & The Blue-Flames, Them (with Van Morrison) etc, etc from memory.

Also, as Rob Moss mentioned the other week, when you look at the Beatles first album it was chock full of covers by Smokey Robinson, the Marvelettes and the Isley Brothers, so the lines were a lot more blurred back then - there seemed to be a much greater fertilization between Pop, RnB and Soul as evidenced by things like Dusty Springfield hosting the Motown show.....

By all accounts, Pop and Soul used to easy bedfellows at one time. My feeling is that towards the middle to end of the 60's when faster U.S. 'unknown' records started to get programmed more regularly, mainly at the Wheel, that's when many of the more Poppy records got dropped in favour of the more exotic cousins from across the Atlantic. And eventually a sort of inverse snobbery snuck-in (of which I used to be one of the worst) where Pop was considered second-choice to real soul.

Maybe a couple of older readers could be a bit more definitive....?

I'm never going to get any work done at this rate, lol.

Live acts certainly appeared in the clubs I used to attend. As I said earlier the Flamingo was more a live act club, than a record club (the dreaded word discotheque come to mind, just came into general use then). I didn't see any live acts at the Last Chance or La Discotheque, but the Scene had plenty, the Animals, possibly the Rolling Stones, I think Bo Diddley joined in an impromptu jam session when he visited it; and I remember a group doing one of those nonstop sessions, think it was Them, but can't swear to it, think it was supposed to go on for a week. I am not a big fan of going to see live acts now, and I remember being cheesed off when that was going on. But I tried to see all the American artistes who toured the UK during the 60 and 70s, so it may have been me being annoyed at missing a Tuesday night session there.

One thing that is certainly different from now is that clubs were on most nights of the week, e.g. the Scene was actually a place, unlike when the CSC was on at the Dome on a Friday every 2 months. The Flamingo was open most nights, might have been a lot of jazz on possibly. And the Marquee was open most nights, and that was a live venue. Hope you can understand what I am saying in this paragraph.

Most of the groups you mention would have appeared in clubs all over the country and wouldn't have appeared on the package tours in theatres or cinemas till they'd had hits.

I suppose if you run a club in those days and you had to put something on each night, live acts were essential. They had their followers, I used to go to the Marquee every Friday for a quite a long time in middle 64 to see the Yardbirds with Eric Clapton, at the time it seemed totally brilliant, he was fantastic, but of course using Freddie King and others as his inspiration.

I attended some of the recording sessions there for 5 Live Yardbirds, and when I heard it some years later, it didn't have the magic. So I guess live music is strictly of the moment.

Also used to get along there when the Who were on. My mates had seen them earlier on than me, might have been in their High Numbers incarnation. I used to get to the Marquee when the Moody Blues (with Denny Laine) were on, they were really good live. Prefer that band to the later Nights In White Satin stuff.

All the early beat groups did loads of cover versions. The Beatles did long stints in Hamburg clubs, therefore needed a big repertoire, the CD Beatles at the Beeb is almost all covers. Lesley was a big Stones fan, used to go to Eel Pie Island to see them before we started going out together, often spoke of hearing songs they didn't include on their LPs.

I found the Stones' covers more annoying than the Beatles, as I thought it was taking the credit from the black American singers I liked. Nowadays I am much more tolerant, their records must have interested people in searching for the originals.

Your para about soul and pop is correct imo. I suspect most of us have put soul on a slightly higher level than pop, most of us like to be a bit different in our musical taste, and the emergence of really obscure records has exacerbated the trend. Let's be honest, we are all highly protective of our underground scene, and want to keep it exclusive.

[Dave Thorley]

Hi Dave,

Jay & The Americans are one of my favourite white pop groups, only got compilations of them, but so good, both slow and uptempo. I understand Living Above My Head was played on the NS scene, always liked that, but didn't hear it out in the 60s, but everything depends on where you went to.

Absolutely agree about the rich tapestry of the scene, diversity helps keep it interesting.

Hi Geoff

'Got hung up along the way' was a popular tune early days at Yate, but I'm sure it was played in the midlands, maybe The Cats before that. 'Living about your head' was one of those tunes that just suddenly appeared from seemingly nowhere. Although I've been told it was Wigan, must have been a night I wasn't there. Or at the friday oldies allniters, which I didn't go to as much. Funny thing was that although it was an oldies allniter, it seems that some of the dj's there did try to break some new tunes, that fitted with the rest of the play list. Although many I suspect, were infact re-activations of little played tunes from an earlier period. The plot thickens, all good fun though

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'm never going to get any work done at this rate, lol.

Live acts certainly appeared in the clubs I used to attend. As I said earlier the Flamingo was more a live act club, than a record club (the dreaded word discotheque come to mind, just came into general use then). I didn't see any live acts at the Last Chance or La Discotheque, but the Scene had plenty, the Animals, possibly the Rolling Stones, I think Bo Diddley joined in an impromptu jam session when he visited it; and I remember a group doing one of those nonstop sessions, think it was Them, but can't swear to it, think it was supposed to go on for a week. I am not a big fan of going to see live acts now, and I remember being cheesed off when that was going on. But I tried to see all the American artistes who toured the UK during the 60 and 70s, so it may have been me being annoyed at missing a Tuesday night session there.

One thing that is certainly different from now is that clubs were on most nights of the week, e.g. the Scene was actually a place, unlike when the CSC was on at the Dome on a Friday every 2 months. The Flamingo was open most nights, might have been a lot of jazz on possibly. And the Marquee was open most nights, and that was a live venue. Hope you can understand what I am saying in this paragraph.

Most of the groups you mention would have appeared in clubs all over the country and wouldn't have appeared on the package tours in theatres or cinemas till they'd had hits.

I suppose if you run a club in those days and you had to put something on each night, live acts were essential. They had their followers, I used to go to the Marquee every Friday for a quite a long time in middle 64 to see the Yardbirds with Eric Clapton, at the time it seemed totally brilliant, he was fantastic, but of course using Freddie King and others as his inspiration.

I attended some of the recording sessions there for 5 Live Yardbirds, and when I heard it some years later, it didn't have the magic. So I guess live music is strictly of the moment.

Also used to get along there when the Who were on. My mates had seen them earlier on than me, might have been in their High Numbers incarnation. I used to get to the Marquee when the Moody Blues (with Denny Laine) were on, they were really good live. Prefer that band to the later Nights In White Satin stuff.

All the early beat groups did loads of cover versions. The Beatles did long stints in Hamburg clubs, therefore needed a big repertoire, the CD Beatles at the Beeb is almost all covers. Lesley was a big Stones fan, used to go to Eel Pie Island to see them before we started going out together, often spoke of hearing songs they didn't include on their LPs.

I found the Stones' covers more annoying than the Beatles, as I thought it was taking the credit from the black American singers I liked. Nowadays I am much more tolerant, their records must have interested people in searching for the originals.

Your para about soul and pop is correct imo. I suspect most of us have put soul on a slightly higher level than pop, most of us like to be a bit different in our musical taste, and the emergence of really obscure records has exacerbated the trend. Let's be honest, we are all highly protective of our underground scene, and want to keep it exclusive.

Dammit Geoff! My one regret is that I wasn't born 10 years earlier (in '45 rather than '55) otherwise I'd have been hanging around in the same circles hopefully.

So glad to hear all this from someone who was there at the time. There's so much disinformation these days that you have to really consider the source (as Leon Haywood said). I could have really done with speaking to you when I put the sleeve notes for the Wheel album together - I got there in the end but it did get a bit painstaking at times because of different people's recollections of events etc.

Just lately I've been talking to Greg Wilson who does quite a bit of University lecture work and he was saying that there's a real paucity of reliable information about the club scene and especially the Northern club scene from this era. He reckoned that the Wheel was every bit as influential as the London clubs but just never got covered as much because most of the key media is all Southern biased. Rob Moss echoed these statements just a couple of weeks ago. So when we do eventually meet up we should have a natter about 'correcting the balance!

However, like you I've actually got to get some work done. It'd be lovely to organise a Uni tour and talk about this stuff wouldn't it?

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Insofar as The Wheel is concerned, this is only true of Brazennose Street. When the venue changed to Whitworth St, the music policy changed to Soul rather than just R&B.

Yep. That makes sense. Wish I'd have been around in those days but I was probably still playing with my action man LOL. Cheers Billy.

Ian D

[Pete S]

No. it didn't ( and you know it didn't). It used to be about dancing to things that divs didn't know about.

It just used to be about dancing and enjoying yourself, not analising every record

[Geoff]

However, like you I've actually got to get some work done. It'd be lovely to organise a Uni tour and talk about this stuff wouldn't it?

A uni tour sounds a good idea, to be paid to talk about the thing you love. Wonderful. If only.

I do worry that I am a bit of a bore on this old stuff. Stop me if I go on too much.

[Garethx]

The Crow is Clearly a hard Rock record as was ELUSIVE by Babe Ruth,Gettin On Life by WOMBAT etc.How did these slip the net to join poppy bedfellows Gayle Garnett/Paul Anka/April Stevens/Dean Courtney etc.Add The Jazz of Ramsey Lewis/Case of Tyme/Earl Wright/Rat Race to the C/W of Lindy Stevens/Brenda Lee/Charlie Gracie/Barbara Mills and you have a pretty clear case that Northern Soul is more about the appreciation of Americana than out and out Black American Music.

I'm pretty sure that Dean Courtney was an African American and the genre he worked in was firmly uptown soul music. The Crow doesn't sound like any rock record made at the time, perhaps with the exception of the use of tape loops. I think it's one of the single greatest records ever made and applaud whoever had the foresight and guts to spin it in Northern Soul clubs.

[Dave Thorley]

It just used to be about dancing and enjoying yourself, not analising every record

Where as these below aren't.

Pete you need this site to help run your business, almost on here daily asking people advice about pricing, Ebay disputes, asking people to buy your records. So if there is a tread that doesn't fit with your way of the world, just don't join in. Instead of trying to trash what other people may find interesting.

'Almost every day I see a new label that was distributed in the States at some time by London/Decca. They all have the distinctive two tone orange colours. I'm thinking about labels such as Tribe and the one below which is yet another new one on me. Things like the Hot Tamales record, at one point came out on a London distributed version of the Detroit label. If anyone spots any others can they post them here please?'

'I always thought the off white copies were the reissues boots and the pale blue was the original, but I've compared the run off info on both of them and everything is identical, I mean absolutely identical...so although it's not mentioned in JM's bootleg book, I guess the blue one below must also be a reissue?? Anyone know?

(nb I know they look similar - the one with the circle round the word vocal is the whiter one)

p.s. Plot thickens. I've also got an original Rules Of Love version one sided demo and the run off stamps and markings are identical to the blue copy and to the white reissue! So is the blue one ok?'

'How can a VG copy of this below be £51 when it's hard enough to sell a mint one for £20 nowadays?

https://cgi.ebay.com/NORTHERN-SOUL-tune-up-...1QQcmdZViewItem'

Other wise having a good day?

Dave

Edited November 27, 2007 by Dave Thorley

[Guest malayka]

Where as these below aren't.

Pete you need this site to help run your business, almost on here daily asking people advice about pricing, Ebay disputes, asking people to buy your records. So if there is a tread that doesn't fit with your way of the world, just don't join in. Instead of trying to trash what other people may find interesting.

'Almost every day I see a new label that was distributed in the States at some time by London/Decca. They all have the distinctive two tone orange colours. I'm thinking about labels such as Tribe and the one below which is yet another new one on me. Things like the Hot Tamales record, at one point came out on a London distributed version of the Detroit label. If anyone spots any others can they post them here please?'

'I always thought the off white copies were the reissues boots and the pale blue was the original, but I've compared the run off info on both of them and everything is identical, I mean absolutely identical...so although it's not mentioned in JM's bootleg book, I guess the blue one below must also be a reissue?? Anyone know?

(nb I know they look similar - the one with the circle round the word vocal is the whiter one)

p.s. Plot thickens. I've also got an original Rules Of Love version one sided demo and the run off stamps and markings are identical to the blue copy and to the white reissue! So is the blue one ok?'

'How can a VG copy of this below be £51 when it's hard enough to sell a mint one for £20 nowadays?

https://cgi.ebay.com/NORTHERN-SOUL-tune-up-...1QQcmdZViewItem'

Other wise having a good day?

Dave

if i wouldn't know better i'd think you two are married...

[chrissie]

Hi Ian,

Sorry you didn't get to the TOS reunion, I'd like to have had a chat with you.

I suspect that Can't Help Loving You was recorded around the time when a lot of white artistes were trying to have hits by producing their versions of a sort of Motown sound, e.g. Len Barry's 1-2-3 and Like A Baby (although to be fair to Len he'd been the lead singer of the Dovells who made some good uptempo doowop tracks, Bristol Stomp, You Can't Sit Down, etc.); the Newbeats' Run Baby Run; the Four Seasons' Let's Hang On; can't think of others at the moment, I'm at work so don't have access to my reference books.

And it wasn't that long ago that Paul Anka had been one of the biggest pop teen idols in the USA, loads of hits. No reason why he wouldn't have a go at an ersatz soul record, after all everyone wants a hit, and being a comparatively young guy he may well have liked Motown and other soul labels. He was on a Radio 4 programme just a week or 2 ago, wish it had been a phone in because I might have tried to get through to ask him about it, or has someone done that already?

When was Queen Of Fools recorded? Barbara Mills was probably trying for a hit with the current successful sounds that were getting into the charts in the states.

There must have been loads of similar records over there that we've never heard about.

I think about 30% of my play list from blue skies would be classed as 60s pop/ soul crossovery stuff........I don't care cos I like it The soul is where the heart is, you can't describe it you can only feel it

QoFxx

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'm pretty sure that Dean Courtney was an African American and the genre he worked in was firmly uptown soul music. The Crow doesn't sound like any rock record made at the time, perhaps with the exception of the use of tape loops. I think it's one of the single greatest records ever made and applaud whoever had the foresight and guts to spin it in Northern Soul clubs.

I reckon the Crow were a rock band and like the World Column from the same era. Great record. It was originally found and championed by the late Dave Godin and first played at Blackpool Mecca when Dave made one of his sporadic trips up there. Colin Curtis eventually prised it from him and the rest, as they say, is history!

Inner Ear Records. Rare. Very Rare. Anyone know of any other records on the label?

Ian D

[Guest nusha]

I agree with the fact that Babe Ruth was a rock group. But The Crow, never in this world, as deep a street funk tune as you are ever gonna find. I'm sure I've seen a photo somewhere of the group and they were a real ghetto looking crowd, a bit like early 70's photos of War.

I have to say I've always had a soft spot for some of the more rock influenced tunes that have been played over the years, High Voltage, Babe Ruth, Rain.

yes so do i but the i must say that THE CROW had USA rock hits..Most notably EVIL WOMAN DONT PLAY YOUR GAMES.The rock press at the time identified them as a BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS or CHICAGO style outfit.I can recall no time that they were spoken of in the same breath as WAR or FATBACK BAND or others of that ilk even though WAR had solid Rock credentials initially for there work with Eric Burdon.Back to my original point that most of us are fans of Americana rather than Black Music but we dont like to think so.

[Pete S]

yes so do i but the i must say that THE CROW had USA rock hits..Most notably EVIL WOMAN DONT PLAY YOUR GAMES.The rock press at the time identified them as a BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS or CHICAGO style outfit.I can recall no time that they were spoken of in the same breath as WAR or FATBACK BAND or others of that ilk even though WAR had solid Rock credentials initially for there work with Eric Burdon.Back to my original point that most of us are fans of Americana rather than Black Music but we dont like to think so.

It's a different group - The Crow I mean.

[Pete S]

yes so do i but the i must say that THE CROW had USA rock hits..Most notably EVIL WOMAN DONT PLAY YOUR GAMES.The rock press at the time identified them as a BLOOD SWEAT AND TEARS or CHICAGO style outfit.I can recall no time that they were spoken of in the same breath as WAR or FATBACK BAND or others of that ilk even though WAR had solid Rock credentials initially for there work with Eric Burdon.Back to my original point that most of us are fans of Americana rather than Black Music but we dont like to think so.

It's a different group - The Crow I mean.

[Guest nusha]

It's a different group - The Crow I mean.

Are You Sure?

[Pete S]

Are You Sure?

Absolutely. Well 99%.

[Dave Thorley]

Are You Sure?

Listen to both in the past, completly different vocals, instrumentation and no simularity in any of the credits

[Guest]

Inner Ear Records. Rare. Very Rare. Anyone know of any other records on the label?

Ian D

Smoke your troubles away,forget who but so what!!

And world column rockers,not so to my ears

Edited November 27, 2007 by ken

[Guest posstot]

Hi All

Reading the 'Touch of Velvet' tread, had me wondering. The scene has always has an element of Pop/Soul crossover tunes being played, i.e

Frankie Valli-The night/Touch the rainchild/You ready now/I'm gonna change, Wayne Gibson-Under my thumb, Javells-Goodbye nothing to say, Joey Dee-It's got you, Spencer Davis Group-Gimmie some lovin'/Trampoline, Liz Damon's Orient Express-You're falling in love, Buckinghams-Don't you care, etc, etc

Of the early founding clubs, Torch, Wheel, Cats, Juction was there one that played this type of sound more than the others. Flip side was there one club that was more black in it's playlist. I'm guessing that this type of sound was a hang over from the 60's mod days, that got included in the early northern scene and so stuck.

hi dave, Mike here, new to ss really, and just read your post...and all the replys..please remind me never to ask a simple question...crikies lol's. tara love

[Harry Crosby]

Smoke your troubles away,forget who but so what!!

And world column rockers,not so to my ears

I KNOW THE CROW RARITY ON INNER EAR,BUT WHAT WAS THE RELEASE OF THE SAME RECORD ON 444 SEEM TO REMEMBER MY MATE HAVING IT ON THAT ANY INFO?

[Dave Thorley]

hi dave, Mike here, new to ss really, and just read your post...and all the replys..please remind me never to ask a simple question...crikies lol's. tara love

Hi Mike

Welcome to the wonderful world of SS. Ian D will tell you how addictive this can become . You take your life in your hands every time you post, great fun!!!!!!!!

PS try and put something in the intro's section

Dave