Northern Soul - What Are The Worst Mixes?

[Ian Dewhirst]

Just listening to some stuff today and it occurred to me that there's some really terrible mixes which made it to record. For the less technically-minded, the mix is what gets pressed onto vinyl, so if it's crystal clear it's usually a good mix and if it's muffled or you can't hear certain elements of the record, then it's mixed badly.

So a couple which have always sounded awful to me:-

"They Say" - The Ovations

"Gee Baby" - The Malibus

Any other contenders?

Ian D

Edited November 24, 2007 by Ian Dewhirst

[Soulsmith]

Jon & The Weirdest - Can't Get Over These Memories. Messy.

[Guest eddyg]

Jon & The Weirdest - Can't Get Over These Memories. Messy.

anything ian levine tampers with

[Eddie Hubbard]

Worst mix I've ever heard is Gloria Hill " Be somebody " on Deep , brilliant record , but I'd love to hear it remastered , as the version put to wax sounds like it was taped from a studio 3 blocks away !! Best ,Eddie

[Guest Matt Male]

The Prophets - One Gold Piece

sounds like it was mixed by several people in several studies, dreadful mix but one of the greatest songs of all time IMO.

[shute]

Just listened to a mix of ''I have faith in you'' from a cd - edwin starr, stop her on sight done by Lavine...

god help us ... the whole cd sounds like a disco mix... shamefull

[ChrisOD1964]

papa-oom-mow-mow---the sharonettes

chris

[Sebastian]

Precisions "I Wanna Tell My Baby" on D-TOWN.

Superb tune, but the mixing/mastering leaves a lot to be desired.

[Guest]

anything ian levine tampers with

100% spot on.........Mr spinning bow-tie and big floppy shoes of the music business!

He must have one hell of an earwax problem!

[ChrisOD1964]

100% spot on.........Mr spinning bow-tie and big floppy shoes of the music business!

He must have one hell of an earwax problem!

[Simon T]

The Prophets - One Gold Piece

sounds like it was mixed by several people in several studies, dreadful mix but one of the greatest songs of all time IMO.

I think it's sometimes caused by trying to fit a quart into a pint pot. The recording goes from multi track to stereo, and then when they get pressed, now in mono, it messes the sound up? The prophets track on the studio tape is crystal clear, but in stereo. A full mix of a track rather than an average of both channels often seems to make the result over noisy.

[De-to]

Jon & The Weirdest - Can't Get Over These Memories. Messy.

i agree great tune but messy

[Guest]

i agree great tune but messy

Ive always hated it!!..............flip is superb and FAR to underplayed!

[Simon M]

Nate Evans on the orange and black lable ?

[Guest Mr messyhead]

have found that over the years there is a lot of tracks that when listened to, thru especially headphones, are a bit dodgy - have always put it down to that the technology has also advanced re record decks etc and these tracks may sound ok when being belted out at a niter to a large hall but where never really designed to be palyed on anything else than an old dansett or hi fidelity record player

[Ian Dewhirst]

have found that over the years there is a lot of tracks that when listened to, thru especially headphones, are a bit dodgy - have always put it down to that the technology has also advanced re record decks etc and these tracks may sound ok when being belted out at a niter to a large hall but where never really designed to be palyed on anything else than an old dansett or hi fidelity record player

Still some bloody awful mixes though. The Motown stuff stills sounds brilliant these days and they were mixed specifically to sound good coming out of small tinny transistor radio speakers - one of the reasons why the drums and tambourines are so loud in the mixes.

However, if you listen to The Malibus for instance, the bass is so loud that it effectively distorts everything underneath it, so even the vocals are fighting to be heard.

Another horrible mix (and record) is "We Got Togetherness" - The Jewells, where everything but the kitchen sink is just way up in the mix so it all ends up sounding like a horrible noise towards the end.

Talking of MGM releases, the mix on The Embers "Watch Out Girl" is the diametric opposite - way too quiet! You'd have to really choose the right record to play it after otherwise you could lose the floor if you weren't careful.......

Ian D

[Ady Croasdell]

Just listening to some stuff today and it occurred to me that there's some really terrible mixes which made it to record. For the less technically-minded, the mix is what gets pressed onto vinyl, so if it's crystal clear it's usually a good mix and if it's muffled or you can't hear certain elements of the record, then it's mixed badly.

So a couple which have always sounded awful to me:-

"They Say" - The Ovations

"Gee Baby" - The Malibus

Any other contenders?

Ian D

I agree about the Ovations, when I heard the master it sounded like a different recording. Pick up the Kent Ovations CD for the best sound.

Jean Carter on Decca is grim, but the alt take Associated acetate I found with the Carlin stuf sounds great!

Gloria Hill is about the worst and the Grapevine EQ on Betty Boo must have been done by a reggae geezer, it's all bass.

[Guest Mr messyhead]

Still some bloody awful mixes though. The Motown stuff stills sounds brilliant these days and they were mixed specifically to sound good coming out of small tinny transistor radio speakers - one of the reasons why the drums and tambourines are so loud in the mixes.

However, if you listen to The Malibus for instance, the bass is so loud that it effectively distorts everything underneath it, so even the vocals are fighting to be heard.

Another horrible mix (and record) is "We Got Togetherness" - The Jewells, where everything but the kitchen sink is just way up in the mix so it all ends up sounding like a horrible noise towards the end.

Talking of MGM releases, the mix on The Embers "Watch Out Girl" is the diametric opposite - way too quiet! You'd have to really choose the right record to play it after otherwise you could lose the floor if you weren't careful.......

Ian D

[Guest Mr messyhead]

know what you mean at times it doesnt even sound like instruments being played (although have heard stories that backs that up) but almost like anything that was at hand at the time that made a noise - even some backing vocals sounded like wailing -

remember that the profiles - take a giant step - was a bit dodgy

[Spacehopper]

was gonna say the malibus and betty boo on grapevine,also sam and kitty (ive got something good)on grapevine dont seem to have any "tops" sounds like your tweeters have blown but maybe not the actual recording studio at fault more the repressing although not all grapevine are like it...

also "ill take love" by lee lamont on backbeat overall sound is good but the drums sound like they are being played in the next room !..almost jamaican studio one sound but it still has enuff treble..i kinda like it thoough

[Spacehopper]

i suppose being independant sometimes they didnt have the money to keep remixing or pay for the best studio engineers..someone mentioned motown always being good...by the md 60s berry gordy would have had the cash to pay or rather keep the best engineers and the studio time (as he owned it) to remix something right

[ImberBoy]

The worst mix ever is fookin southerners putting lemonade in larger or even ........................ farther forgive me............ bitter!!!

"Do I love you indeed I do" gets my vote! Chris King

[Guest]

The worst mix ever is fookin southerners putting lemonade in larger or even ........................ farther forgive me............ bitter!!!

"Do I love you indeed I do" gets my vote! Chris King

Gosh there's loads, one that springs to mind although, It's not neccesary the mix thats dodgy but try playing Tobi Lark - 'Sweep it out in the shed' and set a metronome at the same bpm. (sad I know - in fact you can hear it without if you concentrate) The record's all over the place. The drums & the percussion go completely out of time at one point.

Jayne

Edited November 26, 2007 by Miss BurySoul

[Eddie Hubbard]

I've just thought of another one Paula Durante " If he were mine " GJM , way too much bass to the point of distortion , great record tho ' once covered as Rose Battiste , by Richard .Best ,Eddie

[soulAdequateNP]

I think it's sometimes caused by trying to fit a quart into a pint pot. The recording goes from multi track to stereo, and then when they get pressed, now in mono, it messes the sound up? The prophets track on the studio tape is crystal clear, but in stereo. A full mix of a track rather than an average of both channels often seems to make the result over noisy.

Doubt if a lot of our favourite '60s were any more than 4-track originally - even the Beatles were only using 4-track in 1967:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgt._Pepper...ical_innovation

Like its predecessors, the recording made extensive use of the technique known as bouncing down (also called multing), in which a number of tracks were recorded across the four tracks of one recorder, which were then mixed and dubbed down onto one track of the master 4-track machine. This enabled the Abbey Road engineers to give the Beatles a virtual multi-track studio.

so I think it's fair to say that Motown et al were using similar techniques to those described in the above article.

[Guest Mark Holmes]

Robbie Lawson - Burning Sensation

Tow away Zone - Diane whatsername

both a cacophony of sound as my old mum would say

[Garethx]

Jock Mitchell "Nomad Woman" on Golden Hit is shockingly badly mixed, although Tim Brown told me once that there are some rumoured copies which exhibit decent fidelity. Would love to hear one of those, as it's potentially a great record.

Benny Harper's immortal "My Prayer" on Harper Soul is unfortunately really badly mixed. A shame as I feel this is one of the greatest vocal and band performances in the whole of soul music. The bass playing is simply phenomenal but even on a minty copy the muffled reproduction does its best to obscure all the great work which went on in the studio that day.

[Prophonics 2029]

In a lot of these records there is a large amount of energy I suppose to get the loudest sound off the record MGM and Verve on average tend to be midband and hazy sounding, but there is no guarantee that all records are made from master tapes, it could be they were so desperate to get a record out and not wanting to leave the valuables in the hands of any old Tom Dick or Harry an acetate could be cut and taken to the pressing plant as fast as fook.

Then there are records with a hiss -Accents Who You Gonna Love probably without the hiss it would sound too clean and new.

My worst is The Poodles Step By Step untill it gets to the end.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Prophonics 2029

[Prophonics 2029]

Jon & The Weirdest - Can't Get Over These Memories. Messy.

Its great, sounds like a live band playing through a little black window, great heavy bass & brass - big piano sound and one single hair pin lying on the floor. Brill fat sounding track.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Prophonics 2029

[Ian Dewhirst]

Robbie Lawson - Burning Sensation

Tow away Zone - Diane whatsername

both a cacophony of sound as my old mum would say

Yep, yer right. Both great examples (bear in mind that I don't know some of the tracks mentioned in this thread). Robbie Lawson always sounded rough over a big system and most of the Creative Funk releases were like listening to horns on acid LOL.......

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Doubt if a lot of our favourite '60s were any more than 4-track originally - even the Beatles were only using 4-track in 1967:

so I think it's fair to say that Motown et al were using similar techniques to those described in the above article.

Maybe not quite as sophisticated methinks. Phil Spector was the king of cramming everything onto a record - hence the 'wall of sound' moniker.

However, George Martin had a massive budget and all the technical advantages of working at Abbey Road with some of the best engineers and tape wizards at his disposal. I think Norman "Hurricane" Smith was instrumental in a lot of the St Pepper work if my memory serves me well.....

Whereas I always got the impression that the 'Snake Pit" was very much a 'bash 'em out and get the next session in' kinda environment, so I reckon that Motown worked very much to a uniform template which got the end mixes down pat after a while - especially once the production-line really got rolling with major hits with the Supremes, Temptations and Four Tops. Also the same musicians, engineers and mastering no doubt contributed to the sound as well. But I really don't think the studio was that sophisticated in comparison to other set-ups.

Also have to give a shout for brilliant mixing and mastering on the Brunswick records at the time - I can't believe the clarity on Jackie Wilson, Barbra Acklin and Artistic's records from the time considering there were full orchestras on the stuff. Absolutely stunning.....

Ian D

[Pete S]

I think Norman "Hurricane" Smith was instrumental in a lot of the St Pepper work if my memory serves me well.....

He did work with the Beatles pre Sergeant Pepper but he was working on the first Pink Floyd album by then and thinking "hmm this is easy why don't I put out a couple of crap singles in the early 70's"

[Ian Dewhirst]

He did work with the Beatles pre Sergeant Pepper but he was working on the first Pink Floyd album by then and thinking "hmm this is easy why don't I put out a couple of crap singles in the early 70's"

From "Ummagumma" to "Oh Babe, What Would You Say" is quite a large step isn't it LOL?

Ian D

[Sweeney]

Donny Wells - You've Got My Love (Scepter) Sounds like they set up the recording apparatus outside a club he was appearing in and recorded it with the back door closed. I'm not sure the record would be any better if recorded properly, however.

[Guest in town Mikey]

Cool Off is pretty messy, but its part of the beauty of the record.

The Group feat. Cecil Washington is messy too. Again adds to the aura of a rare in quality record being put together on a shoestring.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Thanks for posting this soundclip up , I remember when Richard was playing this c/u , and a mate of mine from Oxford turned up in the record with a sizeable pile of this record [ and the other one by Paula " You're not my kind " ] quite unaware that it was massive on the scene .To say they sold quickly would be a huge understatement , with some collectors buying 2 or more copies .Best ,Eddie

Blimey, definitely a ropy old mix though Eddie. Wouldn't have said no to a couple of your mate's copies though.....

Ian D

[Prophonics 2029]

Cool Off is pretty messy, but its part of the beauty of the record.

Not sure if your copy is up to scratch but is a great recording, all laid out nice, good tonal balance, crisp and clean, grand piano is a bit close, guitar's and horns all in the right place, nice! and then the 1812 overture.

Recorded with passion as he was producing most of the Coconut - Prophonics stuff and prob had plenty of time to get it right, only 1 poor recording on the label or should I say transcripted from tape to acetate then pressed up.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Prophonics 2029

[Guest Gavin Page]

The worst mix ever is fookin southerners putting lemonade in larger or even ........................ farther forgive me............ bitter!!!

'kin great !

[John Benson]

I suppose this recording also qualifies

It's got that 'muffled' sort of sound which always gives me the impression it was recorded with a bag over the mike!

[Sean Hampsey]

I suppose this recording also qualifies

It's got that 'muffled' sort of sound which always gives me the impression it was recorded with a bag over the mike!

Was thinking about Oliver Bush, while reading this thread John, though I reckon that's just a bad pressing on the WD rather than a bad mix.

I seem to recall that Issues are Styrene and Demo's vinyl... making it a 'warmer' sound. Can anyone confirm if the Black issue is any better (or is it equally poor)?

Such a shame. A lovely record but it sounds as if you're ears have developed a sheepskin lining.

Sean

[Prophonics 2029]

Sound clip of OB.

[Eddie Hubbard]

Was thinking about Oliver Bush, while reading this thread John, though I reckon that's just a bad pressing on the WD rather than a bad mix.

I seem to recall that Issues are Styrene and Demo's vinyl... making it a 'warmer' sound. Can anyone confirm if the Black issue is any better (or is it equally poor)?

Such a shame. A lovely record but it sounds as if you're ears have developed a sheepskin lining.

Sean

A mate of mine has a black issue plays perfectly apparently .......Best ,Eddie

[Eddie Hubbard]

Just to say I've posted a clip of the Gloria Hill record in the " bad accidents " thread by mistake - how do I move it to this one ? Best ,Eddie

[willsy]

Just listening to some stuff today and it occurred to me that there's some really terrible mixes which made it to record. For the less technically-minded, the mix is what gets pressed onto vinyl, so if it's crystal clear it's usually a good mix and if it's muffled or you can't hear certain elements of the record, then it's mixed badly.

So a couple which have always sounded awful to me:-

"They Say" - The Ovations

"Gee Baby" - The Malibus

Any other contenders?

Ian D

johnny moore...such a womderful feelimg...bluerock

are they all dodgy, or is there any good ones?????

mark w

[Guest mobbsy]

narby believe it or not, sounds "off key" to me

[Prophonics 2029]

Just to say I've posted a clip of the Gloria Hill record in the " bad accidents " thread by mistake - how do I move it to this one ? Best ,Eddie

Well its on the page Eddie in your last played clips.

I wonder if some of the recording is a backing track with the orchestra played out over a speaker with other stuff being recorded at the time over th top then vocals put on last, over all the mess.

Lovely track.

If you go into refo soul you can get the tracks number for putting it in the page.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Prophonics 2029

[Anais nin Carms]

The worst and funniest thing I have ever heard was Mrs Mills "Lovers Concerto"

[Ian Dewhirst]

The worst and funniest thing I have ever heard was Mrs Mills "Lovers Concerto"

Well actually it's not badly mixed but it is a hilarious record! I remember playing this to Swish from York and he physically collapsed laughing......

Ian D