(new) Northern Soul Top 500 Book Launch Event

[Goldsoul]

As I thought throwing stones in glass houses

[Goldsoul]

I probably wont be posting on here too often, and have not critisized anyones opinion, this thread was about the book and has turned into anything but. You judge for yourself just enjoy the music what ever pocket you are in!

[TOAD]

Have you looked on anybody elses site ? glad to see you only look at ours and make presumptions that we are the distributers! Can you do me a favour and post on here your evidence!

YES I LOOK ALL OVER THE NET AND E BAY IS FLOODED WITH BOOTS!!

I AM NOT THICK

IVE ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION

LOOK A LIKES ARE ILLEGAL

AND THATS A FACT

[Guest Trevski]

As I thought throwing stones in glass houses

?? The phrase is "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" meaning, don't criticise someone else when you do the same thing. As I don't sell, or even posess a bootleg record, I think my house is built of bricks!

Edited November 29, 2007 by Trevski

[Pete S]

DO GOLD SOUL SELL BOOTLEGS /ILEGAL CDS 45s

NO NEED TO ANSWER THAT THE PROOF IS OUT THERE FOR ALL TO SEE

Don't see anyone asking John Manship or Tim Brown or me even about selling pressings (bootlegs).

Very selective as usual.

[Pete S]

I probably wont be posting on here too often, and have not critisized anyones opinion, this thread was about the book and has turned into anything but. You judge for yourself just enjoy the music what ever pocket you are in!

Stand your ground Samm and don't rise to the bait.

[SteveM]

?? The phrase is "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" meaning, don't criticise someone else when you do the same thing. As I don't sell, or even posess a bootleg record, I think my house is built of bricks!

What label is the Kae Williams on that you played at Qube then ?

[TOAD]

YES MAYBE I AM PETE FAIR COMMENT BUT JUST DONT QUOTE ME IVE PRINCIPLES TO AND ITS THE ARTISTS THAT ARE BEING RIPPED OFF WITH ILEGAL RECORDS.

ID LIKE TO THINK SOME WOULD GET A FEW QUID BEFORE THEY DIE.

[Pete S]

YES MAYBE I AM PETE FAIR COMMENT BUT JUST DONT QUOTE ME IVE PRINCIPLES TO AND ITS THE ARTISTS THAT ARE BEING RIPPED OFF WITH ILEGAL RECORDS.

ID LIKE TO THINK SOME WOULD GET A FEW QUID BEFORE THEY DIE.

Sorry Tim it's just too selective for my liking, not just you, half of em on here, certain people are abovethe law, others are persona non grata.

These latest bootlegs, the ones that have been surfacing for about 18 months now, all of the record companies know about them, they weregiven the details of the person doing them, apart from sending out a letter or two I doubt if they have done anything about it...if they have, why are they still appearing regularly? And they are not from the source that most of the early 00's pressings are from

[Guest Trevski]

What label is the Kae Williams on that you played at Qube then ?

Didn't know you could bootleg something that was never issued on vinyl?

Furthermore, as with other unissued stuff I have, they are for my use only and not for sale.

Also wherever possible, for example the Audrey Matthews/Sharon Mcmahon unissued "I have no choice" I contacted Audrey matthews, for permission, only to find out it wasn't her, as credited on the CD. It was Audrey that told me it was probably Sharon McMahon. I then contacted Adey who produced the CD and asked him if I could have a cut done before I got it done. He said "Yes, no problem with cuts of unissued stuff, the more that get to hear it out the better, ". If he had said no, then I wouldn't have it, simple as that. Can't think of many that would go to that trouble.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Trevski

[SteveM]

Didn't know you could bootleg something that was never issued on vinyl?

Furthermore, as with other unissued stuff I have, they are for my use only and not for sale.

Also wherever possible, for example the Audrey Matthews/Sharon Mcmahon unissued "I have no choice" I contacted Audrey matthews, for permission, only to find out it wasn't her, as credited. I then contacted Adey who produced the CD and asked him if I could have a cut done before I got it. He said "Yes, the more that get to hear it out the better". If he had said no, then I wouldn't have it, simple as that. Can't think of many that would go to that trouble.

I agree with you there.

Who did you ask permission from to cut the Kae Williams ?

[Guest Trevski]

I agree with you there.

Who did you ask permission from to cut the Kae Williams ?

Couldn't find Kae Williams, but I believe the person that got the master from him had his permission to have cuts done, and it came from them.

[SteveM]

Couldn't find Kae Williams, but I believe the person that got the master from him had his permission to have cuts done, and it came from them.

I apologise then. I thought it came off one of two cds of one of Butchs spots cut without his knowledge.

As an aside, I believe Kae Williams died in 1987, assuming its th Philly dj/Lee Andrews guy.

Edited November 30, 2007 by SteveM

[Guest Trevski]

I apologise then. I thought it came off one of two cds of one of Butchs spots cut without his knowledge.As an aside, I believe Kae Williams died in 1987, assuming its th Philly dj/Lee Andrews guy.

Accepted. 

I was given one of the Buch cd's, not the one with kae Williams on tho'. I would love to have the Jean Carter, as it is unissued decca acetate, but as the artist is unknown they cannot be contacted, and Butch would never give permission, it's on my iPod only!

I think unissued stuff is fair do's for cuts, as are album only tracks (provided you have the album) as it gets new stuff played to a wider audience.

Totaly fine to use for DJ'ing but selling is a no-no!

Edited November 30, 2007 by Trevski

[Pete S]

Accepted.

I was given one of the Buch cd's, not the one with kae Williams on tho'. I would love to have the Jean Carter, as it is unissued decca acetate, but as the artist is unknown they cannot be contacted, and Butch would never give permission, it's on my iPod only!

I think unissued stuff is fair do's for cuts, as are album only tracks (provided you have the album) as it gets new stuff played to a wider audience.

Totaly fine to use for DJ'ing but selling is a no-no!

It's all a bit precious isn't it. Asking permission from people who were fortunate enough to find an old track. Did they pay for it to be recorded, pay the session men? Doubt it.

[Guest Trevski]

It's all a bit precious isn't it. Asking permission from people who were fortunate enough to find an old track. Did they pay for it to be recorded, pay the session men? Doubt it.

If you had an nice unissued acetate, as I'm sure you have had in the past, and you posted an MP3 of it up here, I wouldn't take that as carte blanche to get a cut done. I would ask you if it was ok first. You probably wouldn't give a toss either way, but it costs nothing to ask, and its polite.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Trevski

[Dave Moore]

Couldn't find Kae Williams, but I believe the person that got the master from him had his permission to have cuts done, and it came from them.

Then you didn't look very hard Trevski Mate. He's still producing in Philly.

In fact Kae Williams Jr was a guest at a Kev Roberts gig last year. How ironic! I'm sure he could put you in touch with Kae in order to send him a royalty.

[Guest Trevski]

Then you didn't look very hard Trevski Mate. He's still producing in Philly.

In fact Kae Williams Jr was a guest at a Kev Roberts gig last year. How ironic! I'm sure he could put you in touch with Kae in order to send him a royalty.

Kae Williams Snr the person in question is dead as I have just learned

b. Ulysses Kae Williams, 4th February 1921, Philadelphia, Pennysylvania, U.S.A.

d. 29th December 1987, Philadelphia, Pennysylvania, U.S.A.

His son is indeed a producer. If he has royalty rights to his dad's stuff then if anyone who knows him Pm's me his address and I will get in touch, altho' the royalty for one disc is about 62cents! would cost more for the stamp!

Edited November 30, 2007 by Trevski

[Guest soulmaguk]

Thankyou people, my search for the truth is almost there, (Samm) I have just come back from a music quiz this evening, and one of the questions was in 1952-53 how many groups were in the charts..and it was 12. The top 500 is astounding really, such insite, such commitment. Kev, your do's are fantastic man, and 'life is just a precious minute.

Kind Regards Jock.

[Pete S]

If you had an nice unissued acetate, as I'm sure you have had in the past, and you posted an MP3 of it up here, I wouldn't take that as carte blanche to get a cut done. I would ask you if it was ok first. You probably wouldn't give a toss either way, but it costs nothing to ask, and its polite.

Anything I post up here or on a podcast is to share Trev, like I said, I didn't have anything to do with the making of the record and it doesn't belong to me. But I know what you mean and that's very decent of you.

[SteveM]

Then you didn't look very hard Trevski Mate. He's still producing in Philly.

In fact Kae Williams Jr was a guest at a Kev Roberts gig last year. How ironic! I'm sure he could put you in touch with Kae in order to send him a royalty.

Is it Kae Williams Jnr on the track Dave ?

[Guest Trevski]

Is it Kae Williams Jnr on the track Dave ?

Didn't know there was a Kae Williams Jr, but thanks to Dave for letting me know. I have found his email addy and have written to him for info on the track etc. Don't think it's him on the track, as he was born March 07, 1956 so he would have been too young, unless the track was made in the 70's. The vocal is that of a mature voice. I await a reply!

Edited November 30, 2007 by Trevski

[Dave Moore]

The late Kae Williams Snr was a DJ/Record Producer/Record label owner in Philadelphia back in the day. The Junior label from Philadelphia (Yvonne Baker and The Sensations etc) was owned by him and was named after his son Kae Williams Jr. Mr Williams Jr is an accomplished producer himself and is still producing records both on his own and as part of a team when asked.

I first met Kae Jr at Kev Robert's gig in Philadelphia along with Dave Ferguson, Dave Greet, Colin Dilnot and other collectors so eloquently described by Mr Sadot as sheep. I only mentioned Kae Williams as it seemed ironic to me that the thread was a lambasting of Kev Roberts and it was him who found Kae (or at least it was his gig that put us all together.)

[Dave Moore]

Is it Kae Williams Jnr on the track Dave ?

I have absolutely no idea Mate.

[vaultofsouler]

Didn't know you could bootleg something that was never issued on vinyl?

Furthermore, as with other unissued stuff I have, they are for my use only and not for sale

Just to be devilish with you Trev.... I could try to suggest that even making a "personal copy" of such an item is bootlegging ....

....

Edited November 30, 2007 by vaultofsouler

[Chalky]

What label is the Kae Williams on that you played at Qube then ?

[Chalky]

I have absolutely no idea Mate.

Its Kae Williams Snr. Jnr would have been a little too young at the time to record something like that.

[Guest posstot]

Don't have a top ten, let alone a 'top 50' can't see the point of rating tunes in this way. How can you put say, Robert Tanner over Sandy Golden? Both excellent examples of classy Northern mid-tempo, one male, one female, why choose? Or put them against Joseph Webster or Parliaments. Different types of tune all brilliant in their own right.

Can't be done with lists, it's like the '100 greatest war movies' how can you rate 'Private Ryan' over "In which we serve"? If it's good, it's good, placing it in a list doesn't make it better or worse than those above or below.

scuse me trevski....just reading thru...wanted to say.."love your work"...

[Guest gordon russell]

It's bloody hard work trying to get the scene to progress, Lifeline is IMHO the best progressive all-nighter with the countries top soul DJ's and guests but struggle to compete with the likes of Kings Hall Stoke!!! 100 Club, Wilton and Burnley the same. The more forward looking crowd is not that great in numbers but the records do in time filter down to the more retro events. Even Kings Hall now has the likes of Butch and Mick H djing there so inroads are being made but you can't do it over night. It takes time, effort and perseverence. Maybe in time more of the oldies only crowd will progress if they hear enough "unfamiliar" sounds that they like at places like Kings Hall.

Maybe I should do a book of the top 500 "newies"

we don't want it to filter down.......keep it all for ourselves YES

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

OK, first, to get back to the reason for this thread, do I take it that this book is merely a personal top 500 rather than being based upon something like rarety or eBay values?

Second, can someone give me an example or ten of these "newies" I keep hearing about?

Third... Do all the DJs on here fill in PRS forms after their gigs? 'cause if not they're ripping the artists and the writers off whether they're playing boots, 2nd hand overpriced rareties, or legit CDs...

Fourth. There is no fourth thing.

[Ric-tic]

Third... Do all the DJs on here fill in PRS forms after their gigs? 'cause if not they're ripping the artists and the writers off whether they're playing boots, 2nd hand overpriced rareties, or legit CDs...

probibly not as they are not required to

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

probibly not as they are not required to

Indeed, since the rules changed it has not been compulsory and the PRS have taken to guessing what was played, or to put it another way they don't give a toss, they divvy the proceeds up using their own criteria that assumes that the biggest artists get the most play, while common sense suggests the opposite. Have you ever heard Kylie at any disco other than the one at your mate's wedding?

Which is why you should demand a PRS form and fill the thing in.

[Sweeney]

Indeed, since the rules changed it has not been compulsory and the PRS have taken to guessing what was played, or to put it another way they don't give a toss, they divvy the proceeds up using their own criteria that assumes that the biggest artists get the most play, while common sense suggests the opposite. Have you ever heard Kylie at any disco other than the one at your mate's wedding?

Which is why you should demand a PRS form and fill the thing in.

Rare Soul enthusiasts and DJs "Ripping Off" artists by not filling in a PRS Form? a bit melodramatic and even offensive.

Given the way the collection mechanisms work, the length of time since the music was recorded and numerous other factors (artist stil being alive / still a member of a Performing Rights Body etc.) It would be extremely unlikely that individual artists would ever see a red cent as a result of their record being played on the Rare Soul Scene.

To give an example: say I play Connie Laverne "Can't Live Without You" (GSF) at a small Rare Soul do at a bar in London. I take the time to request and fill out a PRS form (assuming anyone at the bar has ever seen such a thing) and duly note it down as one of my selections.

What are the chances of anyone involved in the writing, performance or any other aspect of this record ever seeing remuneration from PRS / ASCAP / or any other agency involved with the collection of such royalties? With my cynic's hat on I'd say very little chance indeed. Even if they were fully paid up members of a Trade Body that collects such royalties.

If I thought that artists would see a benefit, then I'd be more than happy to oblige.

I applaud your sentiments, but it's an ultimately futile endeavour.

Edited December 1, 2007 by sweeney

[Andybellwood]

Don't see anyone asking John Manship or Tim Brown or me even about selling pressings (bootlegs).

Very selective as usual.

As always on soul-source some great posts and healthy debate -had quick browse at the 'new' book and includes a quote from sadly now dead northern soul fan, Tommo 'Everyone argues over Northern Soul because they care SO MUCH about it. The day they don't argue about the scene is the day to start worrying -coz that's the day people don't care about it-and when they don't the scene will die '

one for soul-source moderators ? constructive and informed argument slander and personal attacks

Edited December 1, 2007 by YKSoulandy

[Guest soulmaguk]

As always on soul-source some great posts and healthy debate -had quick browse at the 'new' book and includes a quote from sadly now dead northern soul fan, Tommo 'Everyone argues over Northern Soul because they care SO MUCH about it. The day they don't argue about the scene is the day to start worrying -coz that's the day people don't care about it-and when they don't the scene will die '

one for soul-source moderators ? constructive and informed argument slander and personal attacks

Was wondering why Jinxy from Scarborough had been saying that quote recently.

[Mike]

one for soul-source moderators ? constructive and informed argument slander and personal attacks

have you read the terms of use ?

check out the bit about content and the report post feature

as said many times

if wish to discuss moderation be it suggestions, criticisms, views or whatever then yet again ask please use the members feedback forum not forum threads

its as it says a place for such posts

[Paul-s]

Paul,

How did you research your play? Did Wigan Casino re-open for you?

I also think that people like Ian D, Butch, Soul Sam and Richard S need to be careful. When you put a certain amount of time into starting venues, or reach a certain amount of time as a DJ on the scene, or God forbid in our capitalist democracy, make money by providing a service, it seems you become a pariah and an outcast.

The current ones are Kev Roberts, Ian Levine and Russ Winstanley. No I must be wrong there, because Chris Waterman (Hi Chris, long time no see) got some stick a couple of years ago, because he was fairly new on the promoting side, and was accused of making money out of the scene.

The book is fine for those who want to buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

If you like new films, do you rant and rave about people still liking the Shining or the Godfather? Probably not.

Whats the difference, or is there only one opinion to be listened to on here Paul?

ANSWERED THIS ON OTHER THREAD!

[Paul-s]

The late Kae Williams Snr was a DJ/Record Producer/Record label owner in Philadelphia back in the day. The Junior label from Philadelphia (Yvonne Baker and The Sensations etc) was owned by him and was named after his son Kae Williams Jr. Mr Williams Jr is an accomplished producer himself and is still producing records both on his own and as part of a team when asked.

I first met Kae Jr at Kev Robert's gig in Philadelphia along with Dave Ferguson, Dave Greet, Colin Dilnot and other collectors so eloquently described by Mr Sadot as sheep. I only mentioned Kae Williams as it seemed ironic to me that the thread was a lambasting of Kev Roberts and it was him who found Kae (or at least it was his gig that put us all together.)

mmmmmmm. I helped push 'our love is dying' by Kae Williams, over the last 3 years. Which is now a floor packer. Is it in Top 500 Got mine from the person with the master and permission.

Edited December 1, 2007 by paul-s

[Paul-s]

No sorry, disagree. The reason I can hear them time after time is because they are great records. Same as I must have heard I Saw The Light by Todd Rundgren every day for as many years as I can remember. It never gets tiresome. Now, if I were hearing the same records every week at an event, thats different, I'd want to hear fresher records, but I'm not talking about that. If you ask me to list my favourite 100 records, half of them would be post Wigan maybe even post Stafford so it's not a case of staying put with the same old records, I just bought that Voices Inc for example. I do love my favourites though.

Fair enough Pete. But i do go out, alot, so maybe you understand why i would rather they vary it a bit.

[Paul-s]

Fair enough Chalks, but I take the view that, as as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, 'The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing'. Criticising him may not do any good, (then again it might open the eyes of some) but to say nothing is to silently condone him, IMVHO!

Exactly! Has everyone forgotten Whitby? People seem to erase memory very quickly! Threatening people with solicitors? Gagging orders! Anyone remember? I want this scene to progress and survive....therefore I have to speak up against the cold hearted , ruthless exploitation of it. Any promoter that books a dj and then tells them what to play, shouldn't be promoting and definitely shouldn't be booking a djs who he doesn't repect enough to play the sets they wants to! What's the point.....control and manipulation, I fear. Aspyxiating the scene...squeezing ALL he can out of it. When he's wrung it dry, he will probably move on to something else...

[Mike]

post and follow on removed as per terms of use

[Guest biggray1]

Id like to know how your percieve a re-issue to be legitiamte or otherwise...do you have the facts

Good call Samm,could you give us a idea how you would start to reissue a current sound that every one wants on Vinyl or Cd,do you start with the artist if still alive and if not the artists family for permision!or the Label,or the writers or Bmi..am very interested too know. Graham.

[Guest biggray1]

I am a director of Goldsoul and no its not Kev

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :https://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZfunkyludie not Roberts eh!

Edited December 1, 2007 by biggray1

[Guest geordiebri]

You' know, i was thinking I'll have a nice quiet night, but now with the Toon getting beat & a KEV ROBERTS THREAD to read, at least the internet will entertain me for a few hours.

[The Yank]

Here's my question -

I have volume one and two of this book. Volume two added about 100 new pages but was basically volume one.

Did anyone buy volume three and notice a big difference between the older printings??

[Guest gordon russell]

You' know, i was thinking I'll have a nice quiet night, but now with the Toon getting beat & a KEV ROBERTS THREAD to read, at least the internet will entertain me for a few hours.

because of the person under disscussion......probably just a few minutes .....hang on though he might have done a deal whereby he gets a £1 for every post lol

[chrissie]

Id like to know how your percieve a re-issue to be legitiamte or otherwise...do you have the facts

Good call Samm,could you give us a idea how you would start to reissue a current sound that every one wants on Vinyl or Cd,do you start with the artist if still alive and if not the artists family for permision!or the Label,or the writers or Bmi..am very interested too know. Graham.

When I cam back on the scene about 4 years ago and started replacing my record collection (that had "gone missing" during the 80s) I inadvertantly bought a record off ebay from goldsoul knowing know different as I had been off the scene for so long. The minute I took it out of the packaging I knew it was a boot, even the title was spelt wrong. It was a cheapie so didn't do anything about it just put it down to experience and never bought or ever will buy from them again.

Would you like me to post a scan of the label so we can all have a laugh?

QoFxx

[Guest geordiebri]

Well I thought I'd add a bit light relief so enjoy folks, this isn't a go at anyone, just a bit fun!

Once Upon A time in Whitby

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edited December 1, 2007 by geordiebri

[Baz Atkinson]

Well I thought I'd add a bit light relief so enjoy folks, this isn't a go at anyone, just a bit fun!

Once Upon A time in Whitby

IS DE NIRO IN THIS ?AND WHO DOES HE PLAY?

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

Rare Soul enthusiasts and DJs "Ripping Off" artists by not filling in a PRS Form? a bit melodramatic and even offensive.

Given the way the collection mechanisms work, the length of time since the music was recorded and numerous other factors (artist stil being alive / still a member of a Performing Rights Body etc.) It would be extremely unlikely that individual artists would ever see a red cent as a result of their record being played on the Rare Soul Scene.

To give an example: say I play Connie Laverne "Can't Live Without You" (GSF) at a small Rare Soul do at a bar in London. I take the time to request and fill out a PRS form (assuming anyone at the bar has ever seen such a thing) and duly note it down as one of my selections.

What are the chances of anyone involved in the writing, performance or any other aspect of this record ever seeing remuneration from PRS / ASCAP / or any other agency involved with the collection of such royalties? With my cynic's hat on I'd say very little chance indeed. Even if they were fully paid up members of a Trade Body that collects such royalties.

If I thought that artists would see a benefit, then I'd be more than happy to oblige.

I applaud your sentiments, but it's an ultimately futile endeavour.

I'll grant you it seems like a long shot, but A/ AceUK seem to manage to get money back to the copyright owners. B/ My brother still gets cash dripping into his bank account from various parts of the globe for records he played on as far back as the 70s, and C/ I know because the British Musician's Union did a report on it, that all the royalty collection agencies have a fortune sitting in their coffers with all manner of strange obscure artists names names on it waiting for someone somewhere to claim their bit of it.

Last I heard, unfortunately, both here and across the pond they're trying to get the law changed so that they can reallocate unclaimed money, which probably means that the rich barbarians are going to get it all again...

Anyways, I always figured it was worth the effort of filling in a form (When, as you say, you can get one. I eventually got my own supply from the union) on the offchance that some deserving cause out there might see something out of it. The venues have to cough up the cash anyway and I really hate the idea that some of it may be going to support country music.