Playing Rare Originals @ Venues: Does It Make Sense?

[Guest dundeedavie]

NOT ACCEPTABLE, for me...I want to hear the vinyl...I cant believe people cant tell the difference!! Records weren't made to be protected from play..Enjoy it today, you might not be around tomorrow. Its a visceral medium...Also, how do i know you own the original copy?! Ha!

if the 7" was recorded onto CD then you would hear the vinyl , wouldn't you ?

also not knowing if the dj owns the original or not , do you stand by the decks and check every matrix number for every dj?

i'm still on the vinyl side mind you

[Mark R]

NOT ACCEPTABLE, for me...I want to hear the vinyl...I cant believe people cant tell the difference!! Records weren't made to be protected from play..Enjoy it today, you might not be around tomorrow. Its a visceral medium...Also, how do i know you own the original copy?! Ha!

Because I would produce it from my box behind the decks

It's not about protecting it from play............records are made to be played..............but there's a difference, and an important one, if you're protecting it from play on shit equipment!!

Anyway, back to the point..............so if I had this killer tune, and no-one else had it, you're seriously telling me you would rather not hear it, than hear it on a format other than vinyl??

I wasn't going to get involved in this, as it's largely irrelevant to me being a new release merchant!

Cheers,

Mark R

Edited November 23, 2007 by Mark R

[Barry]

you're seriously telling me you would rather not hear it, than hear it on a format other than vinyl??

I don't think that's what is at issue.

[Guest]

Because I would produce it from my box behind the decks

It's not about protecting it from play............records are made to be played..............but there's a difference, and an important one, if you're protecting it from play on shit equipment!!

Anyway, back to the point..............so if I had this killer tune, and no-one else had it, you're seriously telling me you would rather not hear it, than hear it on a format other than vinyl??

I wasn't going to get involved in this, as it's largely irrelevant to me being a new release merchant!

Cheers,

Mark R

Hi Mark,

As you say all too often at soul gigs northern & modern the equipment is sh*t.

The cd/mp3/laptop debate are regards the northern scene is a bit bogus really given that a lot of venues struggle to provide 2 working decks far less the facility for playing cd's. Attempts to link up a laptop at a northern do would be met with derision and rightly so i.m.o.

Derek

[Guest soul99 easylay]

I've just read the thread right from the beginning and have swung from one side to the other throughout all the posts.

I aren't a DJ so maybe my point of view isn't as valid as those of you that have very rare/expensive vinyl.

But that said I can appreciate, if you have spent time, energy effort and money in putting together a collection of vinyl and then spent more time, energy, effort and money in honing your DJ skills (and sweating at early gigs when you first start out, panicking if it's going to go well or not), that you would want to protect your finds/investments, but you would also want to show off both your collection and indeed the skills you've learned/developed. So it would be a real kick in the nuts, if some chancer turned up with a laptop with loads of rare tunes on it and not a single clue how to DJ and just hooked up his kit and clicked "play" and let a set run that he had spent time at home putting together play for the next hour!

Could it not be that maybe a mix of original vinyl (less expensive stuff) and copies of the very rare and expensive vinyl that you owned burnt to cd/mp3 (don't remove the hiss, pops and cracks though)- that way there would be more vinyl played in a set than mp3/cds and the DJs skills can still be appreciated?

This next statement may be heresy itself, but if you owned a very rare or expensive original wouldn't it be prudent to maybe cut a vinyl boot (if that's possible??) that way it could be played on vinyl and the original stays safe ???

My real worry is that if the scene ended up being original vinyl only (no boots, cds etc) - then there's a shed load of stuff that would never be heard as there would be only a handful of DJs with copies that wouldn't want to play them......I mean I shudder at the thought of there being a time when you couldn't hear (for example) Gene Toones - "What more do you want?" or J D Bryant - "I Won't Be Coming Back" because the DJ (quite rightly) doesn't want to spin a £1k-£2k original vinyl.

So I guess I come down on the side of vinyl, but would be happy to accept cd/mp3 backups in small quantities (as for boots & re-issues, as a dancer I'm sorry but I couldn't give a toss if it's the original or a boot being played, as I'm too busy cutting a rug to tell the difference in quality! )

Edited November 23, 2007 by soul99 easylay

[soulfulsaint]

Fine thread Ian and can see many of the points you make - some areas I'm less sure about. First is the displacement theory, I'm not convinced that all physical forms will be displaced by MP3. Radio is more successful now than ever and has not been replaced by either cinema or TV or the web, some may even say radio has been enhanced by their arrival. Forms are more reobust than that. Second, i'd listen to great soul by any means necessary so happy with laptop DJs.

But never forget, MP3 technology has one serious drawback, you can't prize open a brown cardborad wrapper to get into it, you cannot careess its warm surface, or hold it up the light to check the matrix, and then rush to the toilet to sexually molest it for three hours. MP3 is efficient but utterly sexless. As for a rarity that you've just won, priceless. My greatest worry in life reamins VD - vinyl dementia.

(PS Dave Moore - new Burnley manager today Owen Coyle from da supa saints, wish you all the best)

[Dave Moore]

Fine thread Ian and can see many of the points you make - some areas I'm less sure about. First is the displacement theory, I'm not convinced that all physical forms will be displaced by MP3. Radio is more successful now than ever and has not been replaced by either cinema or TV or the web, some may even say radio has been enhanced by their arrival. Forms are more reobust than that. Second, i'd listen to great soul by any means necessary so happy with laptop DJs.

But never forget, MP3 technology has one serious drawback, you can't prize open a brown cardborad wrapper to get into it, you cannot careess its warm surface, or hold it up the light to check the matrix, and then rush to the toilet to sexually molest it for three hours. MP3 is efficient but utterly sexless. As for a rarity that you've just won, priceless. My greatest worry in life reamins VD - vinyl dementia.

(PS Dave Moore - new Burnley manager today Owen Coyle from da supa saints, wish you all the best)

Hi Stuart,

Laptop paptop....may you burn in a vinyless hell!

Hoping Mr Coyle brings a checkbook or a lottery win cos he'll need it Mate. Rest of season to sort the wheat from the chaff and then start the rebuild. Onwards and Upwards!!

[Ian Dewhirst]

So just to make it clear - I LOVE vinyl. However I love music more. Vinyl is a brilliant format but that's really all it is.

Ian D

...then I guess we have a totally different concept of the importance of 'brilliant' and 'love'. The wear in vinyl, the marks, the sound, catalogues a history that goes beyond just the piece of music....its a tactile memory...an audible history. If you speak to people who collect and play it with love and passion, they can usually tell you stories, trials or tribulations associated with each record. Ive never really encountered the same passion when being shown around someones cd collection....its usually DEVOID of any love or care! When I see and hear a dj, a good one, I can feel the respect and care they have for the music they are playing, coming through the vinyl and their attitude towards it. His/her pride or joy at actually playing and sharing something that they may have been looking for, for a very long time! You dont really get that from some lack lustre, chair bound, lazy, charlatan, downloading onto his laptop and pressing play at the event. I love hearing records crackle or jump now and again at night's...that way , I know its live and visceral! The Dj is still there, not at the bar with his ipod on shuffle!

You're WAAAY too romantic Paul! I want a vinyl record to be as near to the original recording as possible. I can't tell you the amount of ticks, scratches, hisses, jumps and pops which have totally pissed me off on recordings I love - I have no fondness for fighting through beaten-up records to hear a recording. Also, most of the scratches have been put on by people who had the record before me and didn't look after it!

The vinyl is merely a format - a carrier Paul, it's not an organic living breathing thing. You may be developing a very unhealthy obsession here LOL.....

And you're being a little unfair describing someone who may use a laptop as some "lack lustre, chair bound, lazy, charlatan, downloading onto his laptop and pressing play at the event". Is this a million miles different from a lack lustre, chair bound, lazy, charlatan, with a few quid putting a stylus on a record at an event? Nope. Same thing.

I think if you'd ever seen someone like Greg Wilson (who by the way has a huge vinyl collection) use a laptop creatively you'd probably think again.

Vinyl is a very loveable format but it's only the means of getting the recording to the public. Let's not over-romanticise it.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

Fine thread Ian and can see many of the points you make - some areas I'm less sure about. First is the displacement theory, I'm not convinced that all physical forms will be displaced by MP3. Radio is more successful now than ever and has not been replaced by either cinema or TV or the web, some may even say radio has been enhanced by their arrival. Forms are more reobust than that. Second, i'd listen to great soul by any means necessary so happy with laptop DJs.

But never forget, MP3 technology has one serious drawback, you can't prize open a brown cardborad wrapper to get into it, you cannot careess its warm surface, or hold it up the light to check the matrix, and then rush to the toilet to sexually molest it for three hours. MP3 is efficient but utterly sexless. As for a rarity that you've just won, priceless. My greatest worry in life reamins VD - vinyl dementia.

(PS Dave Moore - new Burnley manager today Owen Coyle from da supa saints, wish you all the best)

Actually MP3's are pretty crap for quality - WAV files are the way to go apparently. But you're right. It's very difficult to sexually molest an MP3.....

But there is a bit of sexual undercurrent going on with the vinyl thing though isn't there?

I can't count the amount of times I've been accused of loving vinyl more then women LOL........

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

I've just read the thread right from the beginning and have swung from one side to the other throughout all the posts.

I aren't a DJ so maybe my point of view isn't as valid as those of you that have very rare/expensive vinyl.

But that said I can appreciate, if you have spent time, energy effort and money in putting together a collection of vinyl and then spent more time, energy, effort and money in honing your DJ skills (and sweating at early gigs when you first start out, panicking if it's going to go well or not), that you would want to protect your finds/investments, but you would also want to show off both your collection and indeed the skills you've learned/developed. So it would be a real kick in the nuts, if some chancer turned up with a laptop with loads of rare tunes on it and not a single clue how to DJ and just hooked up his kit and clicked "play" and let a set run that he had spent time at home putting together play for the next hour!

Could it not be that maybe a mix of original vinyl (less expensive stuff) and copies of the very rare and expensive vinyl that you owned burnt to cd/mp3 (don't remove the hiss, pops and cracks though)- that way there would be more vinyl played in a set than mp3/cds and the DJs skills can still be appreciated?

This next statement may be heresy itself, but if you owned a very rare or expensive original wouldn't it be prudent to maybe cut a vinyl boot (if that's possible??) that way it could be played on vinyl and the original stays safe ???

My real worry is that if the scene ended up being original vinyl only (no boots, cds etc) - then there's a shed load of stuff that would never be heard as there would be only a handful of DJs with copies that wouldn't want to play them......I mean I shudder at the thought of there being a time when you couldn't hear (for example) Gene Toones - "What more do you want?" or J D Bryant - "I Won't Be Coming Back" because the DJ (quite rightly) doesn't want to spin a £1k-£2k original vinyl.

So I guess I come down on the side of vinyl, but would be happy to accept cd/mp3 backups in small quantities (as for boots & re-issues, as a dancer I'm sorry but I couldn't give a toss if it's the original or a boot being played, as I'm too busy cutting a rug to tell the difference in quality! )

I think The Cooler King has the right attitude. There can be a balance. If Don Davis sent me a previously undiscovered killer on MP3 what am I gonna do - NOT play it???

Plus let's not forget that all these records were cut from tape first - the vinyl is the second format in the chain if you think about it.......

Ian D

[Guest]

I think if you'd ever seen someone like Greg Wilson (who by the way has a huge vinyl collection) use a laptop creatively you'd probably think again.

Ian you're not comparing like with like here. Someone turning up at a northern do with a laptop containing 1000's of tracks is not going to be creative in the way someone like Greg is.

He/she is going to be pressing the occasional button nothing more.

Access to that number of tracks imo is very unlikely to result in a better set more likely you will hear the big rarities again and again and again because they have it on mp3.

Being limited in the amount of music you can take out to dj with should result in more thought being put into what is going to be played.

If someone needs the "security blanket" of a laptop with 1000's of tracks on it before they go out to Dj maybe they shouldn't be bothering at all?

Derek

[Ian Dewhirst]

I think if you'd ever seen someone like Greg Wilson (who by the way has a huge vinyl collection) use a laptop creatively you'd probably think again.

Ian you're not comparing like with like here. Someone turning up at a northern do with a laptop containing 1000's of tracks is not going to be creative in the way someone like Greg is.

He/she is going to be pressing the occasional button nothing more.

Access to that number of tracks imo is very unlikely to result in a better set more likely you will hear the big rarities again and again and again because they have it on mp3.

Being limited in the amount of music you can take out to dj with should result in more thought being put into what is going to be played.

If someone needs the "security blanket" of a laptop with 1000's of tracks on it before they go out to Dj maybe they shouldn't be bothering at all?

Derek

I'm not so sure Derek. How many great tracks which never get aired are on Refrosoul?

Having a massive choice can provide spontaneity which you wouldn't necessarily have with just a box of pre-selected stuff.

Every time I read Manifesto and the various columns in there or some of the threads on here, it makes me want to hear a lot of the records described.

What would Sam, John Manship or Tim Brown play if they had the option of having their entire collections with them instead of just a box of 'regulars'?

I don't think it's a 'security blanket'. I think it's having a massive choice.

But I take your point about the Greg example not being like for like. But there's also a part of me which wouldn't mind hearing a bit more diversity generally in some of the gigs I go to as well.

Has there ever been a Northern gig with 4 decks with 4 jocks taking a deck each and having a Northern soundclash? Now THAT would be interesting.....

Ian D

[Guest dundeedavie]

I'm not so sure Derek. How many great tracks which never get aired are on Refrosoul?

Having a massive choice can provide spontaneity which you wouldn't necessarily have with just a box of pre-selected stuff.

Every time I read Manifesto and the various columns in there or some of the threads on here, it makes me want to hear a lot of the records described.

What would Sam, John Manship or Tim Brown play if they had the option of having their entire collections with them instead of just a box of 'regulars'?

I don't think it's a 'security blanket'. I think it's having a massive choice.

But I take your point about the Greg example not being like for like. But there's also a part of me which wouldn't mind hearing a bit more diversity generally in some of the gigs I go to as well.

Has there ever been a Northern gig with 4 decks with 4 jocks taking a deck each and having a Northern soundclash? Now THAT would be interesting.....

Ian D

i don't think it'd work for northern .... you have 10,000 songs in front of you and one is on ..you have 2.5 minutes to get the next one . to be perfectly honest i can see rushed choices and disjointed sets , the pre-planning would be intensive and therefore spontanaety goes out the window anyway .

i'd love to see a 4 deck session with 4 dj's doing the whole night in one session .....i have been known to use 3 with one set up for 78's (but thats just me)

[Guest]

I'm not so sure Derek. How many great tracks which never get aired are on Refrosoul?

Having a massive choice can provide spontaneity which you wouldn't necessarily have with just a box of pre-selected stuff.

Every time I read Manifesto and the various columns in there or some of the threads on here, it makes me want to hear a lot of the records described.

What would Sam, John Manship or Tim Brown play if they had the option of having their entire collections with them instead of just a box of 'regulars'?

I don't think it's a 'security blanket'. I think it's having a massive choice.

But I take your point about the Greg example not being like for like. But there's also a part of me which wouldn't mind hearing a bit more diversity generally in some of the gigs I go to as well.

Has there ever been a Northern gig with 4 decks with 4 jocks taking a deck each and having a Northern soundclash? Now THAT would be interesting.....

Ian D

Remember Ian we are talking about the Northern scene here where spots last between 45 mins and an hour. Even if you have 2 45 min spots at one night - 90 mins you can squeeze in 32-34 tracks in that time max. If you take a 200 box that leaves plenty of room for variety/ changes in style/changes in tempo. So why on earth would you need a laptop containing 1000s of tracks?

Also wouldn't you have to take back-up vinyl in case the laptop crashed?

I can see it now - sheepish dj "Sorry folks just rebooting my laptop"

Derek

[Guest JJMMWGDuPree]

I'm a firm believer that all music sounds best on the media it was intended for. My dad had 'Brand new call of the freaks' on a 78. When he finally got around to buying it on an LP it sounded wishy washy by comparison. That said, exceptions have to be made. I have an Mp3 of 'Crook his little finger' that sounds way better than either side of my double-sided 45, both sides of which I have just about worn flat. Grud knows what kind of vinyl it was made out of...

I've never seen an Mp3 DJ so I can't say for sure, but my sister accosted one of the earliest. He had an Mp3 machine that looked like a typewriter with the lid on, and he claimed to have every record ever released stored on it. Not only did he not have any Righteous or Walker Bros. (This is my sister remember) but he'd never heard of them. She said that what he did play sounded CTF, and that's my major gripe with Mp3s and to a lesser degree CDs. Sound is analogue, anything digital is sound with something missing. The trouble is, if you don't know it's missing you're not going to miss it.

Slightly off topic, I heard an Mp3 played on Radio 1 a few weeks ago. Now that is just not on. Imagine listening to it on DAB...

[Guest Bearsy]

I think if you'd ever seen someone like Greg Wilson (who by the way has a huge vinyl collection) use a laptop creatively you'd probably think again.

Ian you're not comparing like with like here. Someone turning up at a northern do with a laptop containing 1000's of tracks is not going to be creative in the way someone like Greg is.

He/she is going to be pressing the occasional button nothing more.

Access to that number of tracks imo is very unlikely to result in a better set more likely you will hear the big rarities again and again and again because they have it on mp3.

Being limited in the amount of music you can take out to dj with should result in more thought being put into what is going to be played.

If someone needs the "security blanket" of a laptop with 1000's of tracks on it before they go out to Dj maybe they shouldn't be bothering at all?

Derek

spot on

[Guest Bearsy]

Remember Ian we are talking about the Northern scene here where spots last between 45 mins and an hour. Even if you have 2 45 min spots at one night - 90 mins you can squeeze in 32-34 tracks in that time max. If you take a 200 box that leaves plenty of room for variety/ changes in style/changes in tempo. So why on earth would you need a laptop containing 1000s of tracks?

Also wouldn't you have to take back-up vinyl in case the laptop crashed?

I can see it now - sheepish dj "Sorry folks just rebooting my laptop"

Derek

quality

[vnicepce]

Just seen a post in another thread which reminded me of an earlier post I made which was buried away in another subject so I thought I'd revive it just out of curiosity. Namely: does it make any sense to play highly rare and valuable original records @ different venues these days? Surely it doesn't make a lot of sense to play impossibly rare records out at every gig these days does it? collectors forum in the world, what are the views of Soul Source members? Ian D

Well said Mr. D. I have, as a simple punter, thought about this for a number of years; in fact I recall commenting, to a certain DJ, at a well-regarded venue, on his box-full of blank-label boots.

The records you talk about are treasures, and, frequently, the Master Tape has been lost, so, whilst their exposure to play-wear is limited, they are not going to last for ever.

The most important element is the sound; it's what's in the groove that counts, not the medium, through which it is played, ultimately.

[Guest]

Well said Mr. D. I have, as a simple punter, thought about this for a number of years; in fact I recall commenting, to a certain DJ, at a well-regarded venue, on his box-full of blank-label boots.

The records you talk about are treasures, and, frequently, the Master Tape has been lost, so, whilst their exposure to play-wear is limited, they are not going to last for ever.

The most important element is the sound; it's what's in the groove that counts, not the medium, through which it is played, ultimately.

No groove in a CD or hard drive

[Guest Bearsy]

Is this thread about the owners of these original records playing them on mp3 so to save their own tunes or about anyone being able to play these rare original records on a laptop/mp3 format,

If its about the owners then surely its their choice and no one elses and if its about people that aint got these then do they want the easy way into being a dj

i agree on the idea about original cd released tracks being given the opportunity to be heard out and maybe cd decks being available for these but that is another tetchy subject for me, just get it cut on a carver then surely thats ok or is it,

Bearsy

[Ian Dewhirst]

Is this thread about the owners of these original records playing them on mp3 so to save their own tunes or about anyone being able to play these rare original records on a laptop/mp3 format,

If its about the owners then surely its their choice and no one elses and if its about people that aint got these then do they want the easy way into being a dj

i agree on the idea about original cd released tracks being given the opportunity to be heard out and maybe cd decks being available for these but that is another tetchy subject for me, just get it cut on a carver then surely thats ok or is it,

Bearsy

The original point was why risk, say, a styrene press of a £5K super-rarity which will get chopped up after being played numerous times on different decks. This has just been nicely discussed in another thread about terrible accidents with rare records with instances of rarities being destroyed by dodgy decks.

Although the thread has twisted and mutated into a healthy discourse as to the relative merits of different formats, as all good threads should, the basic thrust was would Northern Soul audiences accept alternative formats to vinyl and I think the overwhelming response has been NO.

Northern Soul is quite reasonably addicted to vinyl. Which is fair enough. I'm as guilty as the rest of us in that respect.

But I'm also aware that the world is changing, sometimes faster than many of us would like.

Also the majority of Northern Soul has already been digitised for CD releases, so I think there's a certain amount of snobbery involved in owning the originals. I think I've said earlier that the act of owning original vinyl is like 'a badge of honour' for many - almost like it confirms the passion of the owner. But these days it also involves having a lot of disposable income doesn't it?

Also I note with interest that one of the world's top collectors (if not THE top one) has recently digitised his own collection and sold off most of his originals. Is he any less of a soul fan because of it?

And, yes, Bearsy it's nuts to do a carver of a perfectly good CD or digital copy unless you just want to fit it into a 7" record box. It'll cost you £20 just to make it look like a 7" with a lesser sound quality! So maybe it's peer pressure? Would anyone dare turn up at a gig with a laptop?

I dunno but we're living in interesting times LOL.......

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

No groove in a CD or hard drive

No hisses, pops, blips, jumps or crackle either!

Ian D

[Guest]

No hisses, pops, blips, jumps or crackle either!

Ian D

But don't you find it lacks the warmth and depth of sound you get on vinyl.

I find listening to older material remastered for digital format sound very sterile and clinical.

Derek

[Ian Dewhirst]

But don't you find it lacks the warmth and depth of sound you get on vinyl.

I find listening to older material remastered for digital format sound very sterile and clinical.

Derek

Agreed. The digitisation process definitely compresses the sound in many cases but I don't think the majority of audiences would even notice, believe me. Once again, this reinforces my theory about Northern Soul being the last bastion of the vinyl obsessive.

It's slightly comparable to that whole Betamax/VHS debate from the 80's on visual media. The Betamax format killed VHS stone dead (as did Laserdisc) but no one was interested bar the real obsessives.

Same thing when I was running Simply Vinyl. The enthusiasts were very vocal in their almost religious fanaticism about the vinyl format. But the market was tiny and eventually petered out altogether. The youngsters weren't bothered either - the average age of the Simply Vinyl customer was 45! Sad but true.

Ian D

Edited November 24, 2007 by Ian Dewhirst

[Barry]

The youngsters weren't bothered either

Three examples:

Kids'd come into my shop and put the needle on the slip-mat!?

Another one would be when they saw the 12" in the shop would be to ask why I stocked mainly albums?

I remember playing at Stylus in Manchester, funk/soul 7"s, and a guy came up, looked at the record in amazement, then began pointing and laughing - I soon had a group of 20 year olds over asking what they were??

[Ian Dewhirst]

Three examples:

Kids'd come into my shop and put the needle on the slip-mat!?

Another one would be when they saw the 12" in the shop would be to ask why I stocked mainly albums?

I remember playing at Stylus in Manchester, funk/soul 7"s, and a guy came up, looked at the record in amazement, then began pointing and laughing - I soon had a group of 20 year olds over asking what they were??

Good examples Barry.

99% of kids today are really not bothered about physical formats - one of the key reasons for the massive decline in CD & vinyl sales. We're heading into a digital future whether we like it or not I'm afraid......

Ian D

[Guest nusha]

I had a conversation with Norman Jay who told me he mainly DJs with proper Company CDs.He told me that he often gets gigs in the big Universitys.All of the students he plays to are advanced IT experts with huge MP3 files.But they like to see him playing Vinyl.Lifting outa the box and cue-ing.If he used a laptop he would probobly be thrown out..

[Guest Rowly]

Good examples Barry.

99% of kids today are really not bothered about physical formats - one of the key reasons for the massive decline in CD & vinyl sales. We're heading into a digital future whether we like it or not I'm afraid......

Ian D

I've found at the complete opposite whenever I've djed to a non - scene crowd. The kids seem to think that playing vinyl is REALLY cool.

[Guest Rowly]

I had a conversation with Norman Jay who told me he mainly DJs with proper Company CDs.He told me that he often gets gigs in the big Universitys.All of the students he plays to are advanced IT experts with huge MP3 files.But they like to see him playing Vinyl.Lifting outa the box and cue-ing.If he used a laptop he would probobly be thrown out..

So what's he play off then? CD's or Vinyl?..... or both???

[Barry]

I had a conversation with Norman Jay who told me he mainly DJs with proper Company CDs.He told me that he often gets gigs in the big Universitys.All of the students he plays to are advanced IT experts with huge MP3 files.But they like to see him playing Vinyl.Lifting outa the box and cue-ing.If he used a laptop he would probobly be thrown out..

I'm out four nights a week, playing everything from Northern to House and apart from one track, I play vinyl - it's a novelty these days, given, but I do think it has a reassuring effect on people.

I have a Pioneer CDJ for the only reason that certain things aren't pressed on vinyl - but it chauves me to use it - I actively dislike the process.

The Pioneer has been the biggest single factor in reducing the quality of people playing on the House scene, if only for the fact that you could have yer Mam beat matching in 10 minutes on it (the youngsters benchmark of how 'good' a player you are), not relevant really on the Northern scene I know.

But I do think it access to scenes with the tools (Cd recorded tracks that are 'obtained') and not the nous (history & passion) radically waters quality down.

I Want To Be A Celebrity Get Me A CDJ.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Barry

[Pete Eccles]

A great thread this, for what its worth originally and even now if its kept real, that little piece of plastic is what created friendships, relationships, and lifelong marital committments, travelling to hear the latest dicoveries, which to a point still exists, from all parts of the country, meeting to have a great experience and hear so and so's latest play,

Allow it in the main to be reduced to a digital scene will in effect remove the access and availability of new discoveries as it will remove the stage for those responsible for inspired finds, it would end up little pockets of local scenes playing the same digital playlists that were played months or even years before, to a point that exists now but their playlists slowly change with what drifts through from the rarer/up front scene,

End result - THE END

[Ian Dewhirst]

I had a conversation with Norman Jay who told me he mainly DJs with proper Company CDs.He told me that he often gets gigs in the big Universitys.All of the students he plays to are advanced IT experts with huge MP3 files.But they like to see him playing Vinyl.Lifting outa the box and cue-ing.If he used a laptop he would probobly be thrown out..

I think it's probably more of an image thing with certain scenes - especially the more serious ones. I think we're not far off the time when gigs or DJ's on some gigs (especially Northern) will be advertised as 'Vinyl Only'. But I feel that it's a little like putting a finger in a dyke, if you 'scuse the expression LOL...

The last time I went to Ibiza for instance I didn't see ANYONE playing vinyl and I went to pretty much all of the clubs - it was all CD and Laptop. The switch to digital on mainsteam club stuff is almost complete with most DJ's downloading the various tracks and mixes they want. Even club promotion these days now seems to be getting towards all digital - vinyl's become too expensive to press for a dwindling market....

Additionally the world's biggest vinyl distributor, Amato collapsed last week which was another nail in the coffin....

It just makes me wonder what'll happen in, say, 10 or 15 years time though. Original Northern copies will be stratospherically expensive, there won't be any such thing as a mint copy and many of the ones in circulation will be almost worn out and irreplaceable, so what then? It's not like there's an inexhaustable supply of 'em......

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

I've found at the complete opposite whenever I've djed to a non - scene crowd. The kids seem to think that playing vinyl is REALLY cool.

Well, it is isn't it. Always been cool for me and always will. But again, it's probably the half-dozen or so kids that hang around the decks being interested that are propogating that view - the future vinyl obsessives if you like. The other 98% of people in the rest of the club won't be looking at what format the deejays playing I wouldn't have thought - they'll be dancing, getting off their heads or getting pissed I expect LOL....

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

So what's he play off then? CD's or Vinyl?..... or both???

Both. Norman plays quite an eclectic selection so he'll be well-armed on both formats.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

A great thread this, for what its worth originally and even now if its kept real, that little piece of plastic is what created friendships, relationships, and lifelong marital committments, travelling to hear the latest dicoveries, which to a point still exists, from all parts of the country, meeting to have a great experience and hear so and so's latest play,

Allow it in the main to be reduced to a digital scene will in effect remove the access and availability of new discoveries as it will remove the stage for those responsible for inspired finds, it would end up little pockets of local scenes playing the same digital playlists that were played months or even years before, to a point that exists now but their playlists slowly change with what drifts through from the rarer/up front scene,

End result - THE END

Blimey. I hope not. But there is a massive amount of change going on in the wider Music Biz at the moment which is devastating traditional practises and revolutionising things very fast - for better or worse. Worse in my opinion - I'm worried.

I think the worse thing that could happen, is if the Northern scene became too insular and eventually reduced down to a collector's-only type scene who met once a month in the back room of a pub and admired each other's records. I think that would be the kiss of death....

You never know. The wider availability of Northern stuff and easier accessibility of it may spread it faster to a new generation of enthusiasts. A couple more Lambrini, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Boots type ads may even be doing it already. One of the best gigs I've been to in the last couple of years was a Gaz's Rockin' Blues gig which was packed full of youngsters who, shock horror, actually dressed-up, danced all night and looked extremely lively and enthusiastic with Gaz's mixture of R'n'B, Soul and Northern-ish stuff for the most part.

Again, it was the inspired choice of music which made the atmosphere. I doubt whether any of them actually gave a shit what format the tunes were being played on!

Ian D

[Pete Eccles]

Blimey. I hope not. But there is a massive amount of change going on in the wider Music Biz at the moment which is devastating traditional practises and revolutionising things very fast - for better or worse. Worse in my opinion - I'm worried.

I think the worse thing that could happen, is if the Northern scene became too insular and eventually reduced down to a collector's-only type scene who met once a month in the back room of a pub and admired each other's records. I think that would be the kiss of death....

You never know. The wider availability of Northern stuff and easier accessibility of it may spread it faster to a new generation of enthusiasts. A couple more Lambrini, Kentucky Fried Chicken and Boots type ads may even be doing it already. One of the best gigs I've been to in the last couple of years was a Gaz's Rockin' Blues gig which was packed full of youngsters who, shock horror, actually dressed-up, danced all night and looked extremely lively and enthusiastic with Gaz's mixture of R'n'B, Soul and Northern-ish stuff for the most part.

Again, it was the inspired choice of music which made the atmosphere. I doubt whether any of them actually gave a shit what format the tunes were being played on!

Ian D

But thats my point, in the main its a dance scene that doesn't give a shit how they hear what they dance to, but if it doesn't evolve ie new discoveries and giving the opportunity for those who make the discoveries to air their wares, and help slowly re-invent the scene, then they will give a shit, purely through boredom, and just finding something else to get their kicks,

Even the most 'oldies' orientated soulie warms to stuff they arn't familiar with, albeit slower than the soulie that has a constant craving for something new, but no matter how slow it evolves it does just that, evolves,

Give everybody licence to open digital venues, no matter if the unwritten rule is you must own the originals, then you make the opportunity to 'cheat' even easier than it is now, lots of local soul nights depend on oldies first, then 'boots' of the current top 20, i know lots don't and keep it real also, but if it became acceptable for those with the 'big ticket' rare tunes to use 'digital' format its only natural that it would follow that every dikc and his dog would be doing the same claiming to protect their vinyl,

God knows we have enough bandwaggon events as it is, encouragement of the use of laptops IMHO would be fatal!

Only a saturday night/sunday morning slightly worse for wear opinion

[Sunnysoul]

So often people on here express their concern about the future of the scene ... so what are future generations of soul fans going to think when someone shows them a genuinely rare and classic 45 that has been hammered to death, a shadow of its former self, because it was cued and played endlessly to 70 odd punters in some tiny club in the north of England back in the day?

Of course records originally were made to be played as mass consumer products but there came an indefinable point some time ago where they became vintage collectables !

It's called "preserving one's heritage".

Do you drive a vintage "one of only two in the world" motor vehicle to work up and down the highway every day of the week seven days a week so you eventually run it into the ground beyond recognition or restoration?

Do the Italians hang the Mona Lisa out every week out in the park so that the elements can do their work and the great unwashed can gawk at it out in the open ?

Of course not.

Edited November 25, 2007 by sunnysoul

[Mark R]

It's called "preserving one's heritage".

Do you drive a vintage "one of only two in the world" motor vehicle to work up and down the highway every day of the week seven days a week so you eventually run it into the ground beyond recognition or restoration?

Do the Italians hang the Mona Lisa out every week out in the park so that the elements can do their work and the great unwashed can gawk at it out in the open ?

Of course not.

That's quite a nice way of putting it I think.

Cheers,

Mark R

[Chalky]

Do the Italians hang the Mona Lisa out every week out in the park so that the elements can do their work and the great unwashed can gawk at it out in the open ?

No cause the French have it

[Ian Dewhirst]

But thats my point, in the main its a dance scene that doesn't give a shit how they hear what they dance to, but if it doesn't evolve ie new discoveries and giving the opportunity for those who make the discoveries to air their wares, and help slowly re-invent the scene, then they will give a shit, purely through boredom, and just finding something else to get their kicks,

Even the most 'oldies' orientated soulie warms to stuff they arn't familiar with, albeit slower than the soulie that has a constant craving for something new, but no matter how slow it evolves it does just that, evolves,

Give everybody licence to open digital venues, no matter if the unwritten rule is you must own the originals, then you make the opportunity to 'cheat' even easier than it is now, lots of local soul nights depend on oldies first, then 'boots' of the current top 20, i know lots don't and keep it real also, but if it became acceptable for those with the 'big ticket' rare tunes to use 'digital' format its only natural that it would follow that every dikc and his dog would be doing the same claiming to protect their vinyl,

God knows we have enough bandwaggon events as it is, encouragement of the use of laptops IMHO would be fatal!

Only a saturday night/sunday morning slightly worse for wear opinion

Valid nonetheless!

My gut feeling is that is that things will have to evolve and there'll probably be an uneasy period in a few years time where it'll be a combination of vinyl and CD.

There'll probably be a younger generation who are not as enamoured with the original vinyl as we are. It makes sense - I was never a big fan of 78's - they were yesterday's news for me and I'm sure a fresh generation coming onto the scene may not be so enamoured with 45's. For the most part they wouldn't be able to afford them anyway LOL.....

I remember going to the Rocket in Holloway a few years back which, in my opinion, had all the ingredients to be one of the best Northern venues ever. The first night was ram-packed with around 1500 people in I believe. The place was full of a combination of die-hard Northern fans, Mods and London fashionista youth all set for a great time. The buzz was incredible. But then DJ politics got in the way and instead of a brilliant buzzing night it turned into a damp squib which didn't cater to the audience because some of the DJ's were on an ego trip and the night ended up falling flat. The venue closed to Northern shortly thereafter and an opportunity to re-invigorate the scene was lost. Bye bye a brilliant All-Nighter venue and 1500 punters who were looking for a great time.

I get the point entirely about love of vinyl - I've got 20K of the buggers here, but to me, it's always been about taste and I don't think that can be replicated so easily. I honestly think it's all about the music - so much the better if it's on a rare 45 but really I just want great music whatever the format.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

So often people on here express their concern about the future of the scene ... so what are future generations of soul fans going to think when someone shows them a genuinely rare and classic 45 that has been hammered to death, a shadow of its former self, because it was cued and played endlessly to 70 odd punters in some tiny club in the north of England back in the day?

Of course records originally were made to be played as mass consumer products but there came an indefinable point some time ago where they became vintage collectables !

It's called "preserving one's heritage".

Do you drive a vintage "one of only two in the world" motor vehicle to work up and down the highway every day of the week seven days a week so you eventually run it into the ground beyond recognition or restoration?

Do the Italians hang the Mona Lisa out every week out in the park so that the elements can do their work and the great unwashed can gawk at it out in the open ?

Of course not.

Well said! My sentiments exactly. THIS is precisely what I was getting at when the thread started. As I said before there's not an inexhaustable supply of these records hence the astronomical cost of many of them.

In a few years time people will be lamenting the fact that there are no decent copies around of the rarest of the rare!

I'll give you a good example. In the late 60's and early 70's there was a scene in Belgium which favoured lots of early almost bluesy instrumentals - they went for things like "East Side" - the B side of "Elijah Rocking With Soul" - Hank Jacobs and "Gonzo" - James Booker etc, etc. For a few years the biggest and rarest record on that scene was called "Heartless Lover" by the Dick Baker Combo on Kool Kat (from L.A. not the same label as Joe Mathews). They had one cracked, beat up copy which played terribly but it had still become the most expensive and desired record on that scene. The result was that the Belgium collectors were willing to pay £2000 in 1976 for a copy - the equivalent of £15K at todays prices.

I found a copy in a box of records at a hardware market in East L.A. (along with 2 Terrible Tom's, I Johnny Caswell and 50 Eloise Laws). The guy from Belgium flew over to L.A., handed the dosh over and put the record in a metal 7" record case. I asked him what he was going to do with it and he said he was going to make a few dubs (or carvers) of it and then preserve it because they'll probably never find another copy and they'd lived with an almost unplayable beaten up copy until that point. Smart move IMHO. These records are RARE! They should be cherished as such.

Ian D

[Ian Dewhirst]

No cause the French have it

LOL!

[Wally Francis]

Has there ever been a Northern gig with 4 decks with 4 jocks taking a deck each and having a Northern soundclash? Now THAT would be interesting.....

Well here you go now this system is state of the art,it's in a local club and all the country's top dj's use it. but on one occasion we had a Northern night on and a very well known dj was playing of a laptop,really spoilt for me that night.

[Guest dundeedavie]

this has been a fascinating topic but i don't think it'll ever change the attitudes of the people who staunchly support vinyl .

i suppose the only way it could work is if people played sets consisting if things not available on commercial cd's , thus making the trafficing of mp3's restricted and meaning people would have to travel again to hear the tunes.....so in essence it could mean a rebirth for the scene .

on the other hand it nullifies the rich kids who go out buying everything but couldn't put a set together to save their collective lives ....therefore making an imagination the most important piece of kit you own and that's something money can't buy

[Chalky]

Has there ever been a Northern gig with 4 decks with 4 jocks taking a deck each and having a Northern soundclash? Now THAT would be interesting.....

Well here you go now this system is state of the art,it's in a local club and all the country's top dj's use it. but on one occasion we had a Northern night on and a very well known dj was playing of a laptop,really spoilt for me that night.

I don't think it would work Wally mate. I've been to venues where there are DJ's double decking and cause of the different tastes there was no flow to the set and the dancers were in and out of their seats, full floor for one record and empty floor for the next.

It would need a lot of thought from the promoters to put the right DJ's in there who could bounce of each other and get it right. But egos would probably get in the way.

[Chalky]

Valid nonetheless!

My gut feeling is that is that things will have to evolve and there'll probably be an uneasy period in a few years time where it'll be a combination of vinyl and CD.

There'll probably be a younger generation who are not as enamoured with the original vinyl as we are. It makes sense - I was never a big fan of 78's - they were yesterday's news for me and I'm sure a fresh generation coming onto the scene may not be so enamoured with 45's. For the most part they wouldn't be able to afford them anyway LOL.....

I remember going to the Rocket in Holloway a few years back which, in my opinion, had all the ingredients to be one of the best Northern venues ever. The first night was ram-packed with around 1500 people in I believe. The place was full of a combination of die-hard Northern fans, Mods and London fashionista youth all set for a great time. The buzz was incredible. But then DJ politics got in the way and instead of a brilliant buzzing night it turned into a damp squib which didn't cater to the audience because some of the DJ's were on an ego trip and the night ended up falling flat. The venue closed to Northern shortly thereafter and an opportunity to re-invigorate the scene was lost. Bye bye a brilliant All-Nighter venue and 1500 punters who were looking for a great time.

I get the point entirely about love of vinyl - I've got 20K of the buggers here, but to me, it's always been about taste and I don't think that can be replicated so easily. I honestly think it's all about the music - so much the better if it's on a rare 45 but really I just want great music whatever the format.

Ian D

I doubt Ian we will ever see the point on the scene where there are enough youngsters who have grown up with CD's and digital music for it not to matter about the original vinyl only ethos that the scene has evolved around, the soul scene is an aging scene and too many will leave the scene at around the same time due to their age and it will probably never recover.

And as for the Rocket, can you blame the DJ's? I would blame the promotors for not booking the right DJ's for the crowd in there. Too mnay DJ's are booked for the price of their collection rather than their ability and quality of their sets at times.

Edited November 25, 2007 by chalky

[Guest dundeedavie]

I don't think it would work Wally mate. I've been to venues where there are DJ's double decking and cause of the different tastes there was no flow to the set and the dancers were in and out of their seats, full floor for one record and empty floor for the next.

It would need a lot of thought from the promoters to put the right DJ's in there who could bounce of each other and get it right. But egos would probably get in the way.

isn't that what promoters are for ? anytime i promote the biggest consideration is what order to put the dj's so the night flows and that's my job as a promoter.

it seems to me the promoter let the punters down not the poor unfortunates who were thrust together randomly

[Guest]

No hisses, pops, blips, jumps or crackle either!

Ian D

Sterile and too good

Quote Ian earlier

Also the majority of Northern Soul has already been digitised for CD releases, so I think there's a certain amount of snobbery involved in owning the originals. I think I've said earlier that the act of owning original vinyl is like 'a badge of honour' for many - almost like it confirms the passion of the owner. But these days it also involves having a lot of disposable income doesn't it?

No snobbery,no money,lotsa`records if ya`dont follow the bandwagon anyone can collect some nice tunes,just a bit of lookin`everywhere.

Bestest Ken

PS i have about half dozen shity boots i`ll give away one day,and one Carver...everything else is real.

Edited November 25, 2007 by ken

[Cunnie]

Great thread & some very valid points from both sides.

Here are some views from me as I was DJ'ing last night with Soul Sam.

I finished my spot by playing 'Lovers Melody' by Will Downing featuring Roy Ayers off a CD as thats all it is available on (2007 release on CD only).

Sam was on next & started his set with Lil Major Williams on original vinyl (williams).

Both tracks filled the floor & no one came up to the decks to have a nosey & both tracks sounded great.

Earlier in my spot I played the Michael Proctor & the Muthafunkaz remix of Fall down off a CDR.

This is the only format it is available on as it was re-mixed for Julia Nicoll & myself by Barry Sharp & we are the only people with a copy.

Should I not play it & deprive people of hearing & dancing to it?

Later on Sam played 2 tracks off carved vinyl.

1 was King Moses, a record that Sam previously owned & as far as i'm aware is a 1 off.

I think part of the sales agreement was that it was ok for Sam to do this.

Again it filled the floor.

The 2nd carved track was the Brian Trappert remix of Johnny Taylors 'What About My Love'.

Another unreleased track that as far as i'm aware does not exist on any format other than mp3 copys.

I also have a copy of the mp3 but seldom play it out as the intro is way too long but the carved copy of Sams has been edited to make it more DJ friendly.

Again it filled the floor.

Later on the Northern room upstairs closed as it was only licenced to 1am so there was a full room downstairs of both Northern & Modern fans.

Sam got a request for Flame n King - Ho Happy Day.

He did not have his original copy on NYCS with him so he played the Grapevine copy from out of his sales box.

Yet again it filled the floor.

Sam also played Joseph Webster off original vinyl. As most of you know this is a 4 figure record & Sams copy got cracked in an accident & is sellotaped together on the b side.

Now if that was you would you play it & risk further damage or get it carved?

One final point, Sheffield is a very anti car city & we were parked a couple of hundred yards from the venue & the sight of me in my late 40s carrying a 12" box, a 7" box & a CD box & Sam in his mid 60s carrying a 7" box, a 12" box & a sales box was not a pretty one.

Lap tops - No thanks but common sense - Yes please.

[Guest Baz]

1 was King Moses, a record that Sam previously owned & as far as i'm aware is a 1 off.

I think part of the sales agreement was that it was ok for Sam to do this.

He shouldn't have sold it if he still wanted to play it. there is loads of records i've sold that i could still play, if i wanted but it goes against the grain any one else would be shot down in flames, i also belive he's playing another of a carver until he 'gets a real copy'