Northern And Funk

[Dave Moore]

And IMO that's half the problem as to why they'll never be proper NS scene in the US.

Russ

Unfortunately Russ, I have to agree. A complete mish mash of musical syles that will only ever gain a local following. That, and the fact that everyone's a DJ and unless they're DJing they never appear at any other gigs will always ensure the US is predominantly a local scene. Two rare soul weekenders certainly don't constitute a scene. Ah well. The commute to UK for a regular soulfix continues....

See you on Oxford Road in January Matey.

[Guest James Trouble]

Now now... lets not spoil this "friendly" debate

When the Rustler is the voice of reason, we should all be very worried!

Edited November 20, 2007 by James Trouble

[Guest Russ Smith]

When the Rustler is the voice of reason, we should all be very worried!

Fair comment !

I'm still intrigued to know who has been clearing floors with Funk at All niters tho'

Can think of a couple of potential candidates.....

By the way i used to NOT clear the floor at Deep Funk with The Brand new Faces, The Crow, Bobby Valentin, etc

Edited November 20, 2007 by Russ Smith

[BrianB]

Modern and moderately funky tracks belong in the Modern or Funk room. End of Story!

I cant quote from posts during day so I have lifted the words directly and inserted them here in bold.

If you are not saying people who have differing views are wrong (or their views are invalid, same meaning from where I stand) then please explain and I will apologise for misquoting you. particularly your very strong End of Story statement. I was part of a scene where for the first 10 years (79-89) it was very common to play 70's record (aka Modern here I suggest), some slightly funky, (Billy Nichols, Curtis as early as end of Wigan) in one room along with standard 60's soul (aka Northern) therefore my view is that is perfectly acceptable and enjoyable when the right records are chosen. My reading is your End Of Story statement above suggests you dont think that is acceptable, fine you dont like it but that is the way the scene evolved and no matter how much you try and re-write history based on your experience pre 1976 can change that. Your choice is to participate or leave, as was mine when the scene evolved into something I didn't personnally like.

Some of the tracks mentioned were tracks that had developed the way Northern/Motown SHOULD have developed.

Again a direct lift, I was trying to get to what you really mean by this, this highlighting of the word SHOULD seems obvious I would suggest but I assumed you couldnt be that personally arrogant to expect a constantly evolving culture to fit our definitions. If you read my posting I am actually asking a question, apologies for the missing question mark but would suggest the intonation is clear otherwise. I am genuinely interested in what you mean by this.

Whilst I understand Pete's not Mr Godin's biggest fan but I hope even he would see Dave Thorley's quotation from David Godin is one of his most pertinent and scarily even more true for todays times (both soul comments and political comments!)

Last point, when the Cats/Torch/Mecca (pre NY Disco)Casino were playing the Northern soul we all danced to and collected, how many on here were going to the clubs in London, or Chris Hills venues to listen to Funk. Not many!!! We were all trying to bloody avoid it!

And just in case you want to question my pre 1976 assumption above it was based on this statement, for clarity are you saying you want the scene to be like it was in these days, when I suspect you were a youngster? If so good for you, lots of local soul nights on 8-1 which I believe are great places for this, good luck to you, I just prefer a scene that progresses which is why I am now only a very occasional visitor.

Now we have people who want to listen to funk at a Northern do. How many people at a funk do want to listen to northern?

And now we have the crux of the matter, and the point that seems to have been lost, I like most others are not saying here that I do necessarily want to hear Funk as I think of it (heavy bass led records from people like Slave & Brass Construction) when I go to a Northern do (I would prefer to call it rare soul also but that is another days argument). However pretty sure thats not what people on here are calling funk, I am not sure other than Jason and James any 2 people are meaning the same when they discuss funk on this thread. Like all genres these days there are a million meanings, and I think the original meaning on this thread is soul records that are funky rather than what Jason highlights quite rightly as a non natural fit. Funky soul has in my opinion been part and parcel of this scene for ever (I only know for ever from 79 remember!)

I think the saddest thing about this the people with the best views of the Northern scene on this thread have been 3 of our funky boys (Gino, James and Jason,) maybe thats because we are all too far up our own backsides worrying about the predominate beat or the cut of cloth most around when we were 17 to just listen to the music and judge with our ears and our feet. And I repeat not saying you have to like it, but despite your protestations Brian you are doing exactly what you and Pete protest about, by saying if it doesnt fit your definition it doesnt get in the gang!

Most interesting was Mr Wright only one to suggest it is all about soul, sad thing for me is Northern scene now, or majority of it, have gone back to losing any connection with the wider soul music genre and any sort of progression is now a major uphill battle and as a result the music will suffer IMVHO!

You seem to know me very well? You are right when you assume that I am not arrogant.

However, you are off the mark to suggest I live in the early 70ts musically, and it is not me who has a 70ts footballer as his avatar.

I do respect other peoples musical choice, but don't expect me to pay good money to attend a Northern Soul night and then be pleased to be inundated with someone trying to make me like funky type records, or modern, or crossover.

The term Northern Soul has been hijacked, and people are trying to make it almost like one of the Stateside events written about earlier. A bit of this, a bit of that, fit half an hour of this in. Not for me, but is that wrong of me?

Can you imagine watching Brazil, and after 15 minutes of beautiful football they took Ronaldinho off and brought on a big centre forward and hoofed it up to him. Then started playing defensively and kicking lumps out of people?

What do you pay to watch? Brazil trying to play European, or Brazil playing like Brazil.

I want the Northern scene to be Northern.

Funk and Modern fine. At a Funk or Modern do. Because I won't pay to attend, and I can remain blissfully ignorant.

[Guest Bearsy]

It's kind of hard to reply to your post because I can't quote you, and it looks like you quote my post and then edit it and highlight bits that you have edited so it looks like you are highlighting bits that I've said, when I haven't, they are parts of my post you have quoted and edited...

But speaking frankly, no one is patronising you, no one is saying what you should or shouldn't like. But it's quite plainly clear that funk has, is and always will be played at northern soul nights as long as poeple are dancing to the records. That's it, there's no "you have to like it". It's just there, always has, always will be, end of of story.

And as Wrighty points out, I don't see anyone who is pointing out that funk has, is and will be played at northern events saying "YOU SHOULD LIKE IT!", but there are plenty of people saying "It's shit and there is no place for this crap at northern soul nights!", which really, when you think about it, is a little bit daft. Quite plainly there is, has and always will be. Whether you like it or not.

My favourate funk 45 of all time, Eddie Parker "I'm Gone", from about 1.20- 2mins is about as funky a record as was ever recorded. The beat, syncopation, the break downs, JB style vocal stabs, it's got the lot. Pure funk.

You don't have to like it, it's just there.

sorry James not intentionaly edited i just kept re typing and your words dissapeared before i knew it, anyway whats left was your words still

I think i got the wrong end of the original thread question, I thought it asked that Does funk have a place in the northern soul scene,If so my answer was and still is no, but like i put in my previous posts earlier in the thread that i do like Northern tunes with a funky edge and yes i do but now after reading through the whole thread again im getting very confused as to what is funk and played at northern events and whats northern with a funky edge/twist/sound/feel etc, thats why i posted up that of the tunes that was put up as funk i didnt like but then some northern tunes that are classed as funk but i thought was northern but with that funky edge to it are not northern but totally funk but i like, thats where i am totally bamboozled as i dont seem to know what the fook is what so for that reason alone i appologise to anyone out there James included for not understanding this thread and what is funk and what is northern but i think i know what funky northern is or at least i though i did,

can anyone put up some tracks that are funk that should be played at a northern soul venue or have been and also some northern tracks that are a bit funky,

regards

Bearsy, the confused one

[Billywhizz]

YES PAUL I HAVE DANCED 2 THE ODD FUNK RECORD NO BIG DEAL THERES 5 TOP DJ'S ON HERE SHOULDN'T BE IN A MAIN ROOM OF A NORTHERN VENU THEY PLAY TO THEIR SELFS NOT THE CROWD I WILL NOT MENTION THEIR NAME'S ON THE PUBLIC FORUM I SHALL PM THEM AND TELL THEM WHAT I THINK FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH THEY SHOULD BE IN THE FUNK ROOM. BILLY

[Winnie :-)]

YES PAUL I HAVE DANCED 2 THE ODD FUNK RECORD NO BIG DEAL THERES 5 TOP DJ'S ON HERE SHOULDN'T BE IN A MAIN ROOM OF A NORTHERN VENU THEY PLAY TO THEIR SELFS NOT THE CROWD I WILL NOT MENTION THEIR NAME'S ON THE PUBLIC FORUM I SHALL PM THEM AND TELL THEM WHAT I THINK FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH THEY SHOULD BE IN THE FUNK ROOM. BILLY

===============

Billy, that was a pretty funky colour you wrote in :-)

[Russ Vickers]

Unfortunately Russ, I have to agree. A complete mish mash of musical syles that will only ever gain a local following. That, and the fact that everyone's a DJ and unless they're DJing they never appear at any other gigs will always ensure the US is predominantly a local scene. Two rare soul weekenders certainly don't constitute a scene. Ah well. The commute to UK for a regular soulfix continues....

See you on Oxford Road in January Matey.

Bloody hell mate.................that would be marvellous...........wahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy !!!!!!!!!

BTW its 1976 .

Russ

[Guest gordon russell]

I think what this tread does demonstrate is the fragmentation, if not myopic view of the northern scene in some quarters. We have many that say 'This is my definition and it is the only definition and I'm not ready to accept any form of broader view'.

Have said this before, but at the height of Wigan's fame, you could stand in the mainroom and hear 60's/70's street funk, classic 4 to the floor, disco, what is now call crossover, all under the name of northern soul. But now people seem to want to re-write history and say that never happen.

played a lot of pop shyte too ....hawaii 5-0....dave clark....april stevens....barbera mills ect ect. people seem to conveniently forget that when they rewrite their oldies utopia

[Dave Thorley]

played a lot of pop shyte too ....hawaii 5-0....dave clark....april stevens....barbera mills ect ect. people seem to conveniently forget that when they rewrite their oldies utopia

Not just Wigan, the entire scene, have to hold my hand up to a few howlers in the past 'Tina Tott' for one

[Dave Thorley]

Dave, was it you that used to play Ha Cha Cha -Brass Construction at Yate ?.

I always remember it filling the floor (as did Miroslav Viteos ),now correct me if you all think I'm wrong, but, I would recon 90% of those dancing didn't give a F*** about the record being described as funk in other circles.To me & them it was still Northern................As was 'The Lurch',Ann Sexton,Bernie Williams,Bits n Pieces, & any of the other diverse sounds being played at nighters in those days.Why do we have to worry what a record might be described as these days? If you don't like it don't dance.Simple.

Can't take much credit for that though, Movin' had already been very popular at The Mecca, and when that album came out, Colin Curtis told me I should get it as it had that great track on it.

[chrissie]

I personally don't care what was played or not played at Wigan cos after mid 1975 I thought it all got out of hand musically and stopped going.

Some of you that say that Funk has a place at a northern soul night are the same people that say that commercial 60s motown/atlantic/stax etc has no place at a northern soul night, I agree with you but can't see how you can say that funk has a place but this great music doesn't.

I agree with Winnie on one point, that is because the lack of dancers these days the tempo of the music on the scene has slowed down somewhat, whether that is down to many of us getting older or more of the DJs are collectors and not actually dancers themselves.

QoFxx

Edited November 20, 2007 by chrissie

[Tommy1]

leroy clofer 'mr big man'....

mrbigman.mp3

Awesome tune , just right for the "soulies" in Oslo

[Godzilla]

YES PAUL I HAVE DANCED 2 THE ODD FUNK RECORD NO BIG DEAL THERES 5 TOP DJ'S ON HERE SHOULDN'T BE IN A MAIN ROOM OF A NORTHERN VENU THEY PLAY TO THEIR SELFS NOT THE CROWD I WILL NOT MENTION THEIR NAME'S ON THE PUBLIC FORUM I SHALL PM THEM AND TELL THEM WHAT I THINK FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH THEY SHOULD BE IN THE FUNK ROOM. BILLY

pardon?

[Simon M]

Awesome tune , just right for the "soulies" in Oslo

[chrissie]

played a lot of pop shyte too ....hawaii 5-0....dave clark....april stevens....barbera mills ect ect. people seem to conveniently forget that when they rewrite their oldies utopia

Terry

Agreed with you totally until I saw that bit..............and I still think alot of the music played after mid 75 was total pooooo

QoFxx

[Paul-s]

played a lot of pop shyte too ....hawaii 5-0....dave clark....april stevens....barbera mills ect ect. people seem to conveniently forget that when they rewrite their oldies utopia

Very true, they do seem to be describing an oldies utopia...But there have been many, many and many more, utter sh...te tunes, played on the scene throughout its entire history!! far greater crimes than a few funk tracks...why single funk out...Sh..te is Sh..te surely, whatever the genre?!! A lot of 'rose tinted glasses' being worn for this debate i think!

[Paul-s]

I personally don't care what was played or not played at Wigan cos after mid 1975 I thought it all got out of hand musically and stopped going.

Some of you that say that Funk has a place at a northern soul night are the same people that say that commercial 60s motown/atlantic/stax etc has no place at a northern soul night, I agree with you but can't see how you can say that funk has a place but this great music doesn't.

I agree with Winnie on one point, that is because the lack of dancers these days the tempo of the music on the scene has slowed down somewhat, whether that is down to many of us getting older or more of the DJs are collectors and not actually dancers themselves.

QoFxx

Maybe dj's should start dancing then?! HA! Also, being able to dance to uptempo doesn't make a good dancer...being able to move your feet to the beat that moves your soul does! whatever the tempo. When some people can only hear 4/4 in a beat, others can hear 8/4 etc. Lets not limit other people by our own interpretations. I dont mind listening to good 'soul' music, whatever the genre, as long as its not the continuously repeated 30 or 40 tunes you generally get at oldies events. I love oldies, but there are f..cking thousands of them to choose from, not just the so called TOP 500! And who publishes that drivel? I dont see them out and about at events, listening , looking and dancing! Exactly...

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

But why is it you need a room dedicated to funk which most of the time will be songs and stuff you can't dance to in a Northern style.

To me i am happy just to hear those very few funk records which get played out as Northern soul and that is weather it be Move On Up or someone more obscure and James Brown - Hey America is a great record but i wouldn't class that as funk just Northern

the thing i do like is we have the different styles of soul that plays out in Northern rooms but to me it's only that of songs that you surely can dance to or has that Northern soul sound. or else anyone can turn up and play any soul music and people will start labelling it as Northern soul

i just wish you could have simple Northern soul and related ie songs that are modern, R & B and so on which have a place in Northern night/room then if you have to have seperate rooms just one for the modern fans as long as the other room don't turn into straight oldies

especially for people who want to hear that mix like me if i was to hear say 14 straight forward Northern soul and then 1 R & B tune and say 2 modern at the end ie Kenny Thomas - Crazy World, Clarance Carter - Messing With My Mind (examples) then to me i not mind

[Guest wrighty]

Awesome tune , just right for the "soulies" in Oslo

thanks tommy, glad someone else appreciates it

[vnicepce]

I think what this tread does demonstrate is the fragmentation, if not myopic view of the northern scene in some quarters. We have many that say 'This is my definition and it is the only definition and I'm not ready to accept any form of broader view'.

Have said this before, but at the height of Wigan's fame, you could stand in the mainroom and hear 60's/70's street funk, classic 4 to the floor, disco, what is now call crossover, all under the name of northern soul. But now people seem to want to re-write history and say that never happen.

WELL SAID, Dave Thorley; I recall being told, by someone, some 6 to 7 years ago, that the NS scene was 'all R&B now....' (!!!!!!)

There is, in any, interest group, for want of a better word, a 'fundamentalist tendency', who believes that only they know what really is, for example, Northern Soul, or a track fit to be played at such an event.

Frankly, I find this type of 'True believer', amusing, in their denunciation, of any thing they don't like, for it must be a.....

.....work of the devil???????......

[Bossfourpart1]

NORTHERN AND FUNK GO 2GETHER LIKE OIL AND WATER, IN'T GOING TO HAPPEN, MAYBY YOUNGER CROWD IN LONDON, BUT NOT NORTH OF THE WATFORD GAP, I DON'T THINK ITS GOT A PLACE AT A NIGHTER IN A SEPERATE ROOM, I HEARD FROM A FEW PEOPLE FEW DJS R PLAYING A FEW FUNKS INTO THEIR DJING, AND ITS CLEARING THE FLOOR SHOULD THEY CARRY ON AND MOVE FORWARD OR STOP IT YOUR VIEWS ON THIS IF POSSIBLE BILLY

Hi Billy/Tony , interesting thread.

i think quality records whether funk / latin soul / RnB / cross over etc should get played in the main rooms (through out a DJ set). In the 80t's it was the variety that kept the crowd guessing and alive. I believe it has a place, it just depends on how good the DJ is in placing it in the play list. Another room would be diluting down the crowd further.

Not too sure how big the funk scene is ? If it brings in some new blood then it could be a good thing.

Ironically "Thumbs / Cobby" who is living in Hollywood -L.A. keeps begging to borrow some of my good 6ts soul / Northern for his DJing sets as the funk scene over there has caught onto some of the tempo stuff , linking to its bass line and breaks , so it has started in the reverse over there.

cheers Frank

[Paul-s]

But why is it you need a room dedicated to funk which most of the time will be songs and stuff you can't dance to in a Northern style.

What style is that then? NORTHERN STYLE? Ive seen people throughout the years at 'Northern' events, dancing in many different ways. I dont give a flying f-ck how they dance, as long as its without drink in their hand and not bumping into people! Anyone remember 'Weasel'..great dancer...what style was he? Go down the WHEEL are they 'NORTHERN STYLE'? great dancers! I think what people actually mean is 'they cant dance to it' or they are not prepared to 'have a go'...they are frightened by it! If anyone can tell me what Northern style is i would be grateful...cheers!

[Godzilla]

What style is that then? NORTHERN STYLE? Ive seen people throughout the years at 'Northern' events, dancing in many different ways. I dont give a flying f-ck how they dance, as long as its without drink in their hand and not bumping into people! Anyone remember 'Weasel'..great dancer...what style was he? Go down the WHEEL are they 'NORTHERN STYLE'? great dancers! I think what people actually mean is 'they cant dance to it' or they are not prepared to 'have a go'...they are frightened by it! If anyone can tell me what Northern style is i would be grateful...cheers!

I've always thought of it something like this:

Rock music (including indie, post punk and such like) - Music for the brain. Lots of emphasis on the lyrics providing food for thought and so on. Also sometimes resulting in clever widdley solos. Hence dancing not so important and consequently it's attractive to those who dance like tw@ts

Rhythm and Blues (including soul, rock and roll etc) Aimed primarily at hearts and feet. Simplistic but emotive lyrics that press the buttons so people get that 'transported feel' and fairly uptempo rhythms conducive to fancy footwork (think NS, Jive etc)

Funk Altogether a lot more primal. Aimed at the ass, hips and groin and more to do with sex than love or romance. Matybe why people dance prety much the same to heavy funk stuff all over the world.

I know it's a bit of a wobbly theory and it's very easy to think of exceptions, but it's not bad as a shorthand way of explaining the differences and on the whole it's one that works for me

[Tommy1]

Aimed at the ass, hips and groin and more to do with sex than love or romance

This is what they said about Elvis in the 50s

[Paul-s]

I've always thought of it something like this:

Rock music (including indie, post punk and such like) - Music for the brain. Lots of emphasis on the lyrics providing food for thought and so on. Also sometimes resulting in clever widdley solos. Hence dancing not so important and consequently it's attractive to those who dance like tw@ts

Rhythm and Blues (including soul, rock and roll etc) Aimed primarily at hearts and feet. Simplistic but emotive lyrics that press the buttons so people get that 'transported feel' and fairly uptempo rhythms conducive to fancy footwork (think NS, Jive etc)

Funk Altogether a lot more primal. Aimed at the ass, hips and groin and more to do with sex than love or romance. Matybe why people dance prety much the same to heavy funk stuff all over the world.

I know it's a bit of a wobbly theory and it's very easy to think of exceptions, but it's not bad as a shorthand way of explaining the differences and on the whole it's one that works for me

NICE...I like it! And NORTHERN STYLE?! I saw the Blackpool competition footage and quite frankly, I find it very difficult to put into words!

[vnicepce]

......and stuff you can't dance to in a Northern style. What style is that then? NORTHERN STYLE? Ive seen people throughout the years at 'Northern' events, dancing in many different ways. I dont give a flying f-ck how they dance, as long as its without drink in their hand and not bumping into people! Anyone remember ....If anyone can tell me what Northern style is i would be grateful...cheers!

What this scene needs is a.....

....Pope, Ayatollah, or Imam..

.....of Rare/Northern Soul....

pronouncing on the 'keeping of the faith' (???)

..who's for the first Public Execution, of a Soul-Heretic?

[TOAD]

IS A SOUL HERETIC SOME ONE WHO LIKES IAN LEVINE RECORDS

[Mal C]

I for one would like to hear allot more Funk Records on the Northern scene, you never know it could liberate some of those buggars who cant put one foot in from of another, they could just Pogo on the spot!

How about Della Reese-It was a Very Good Year right at the height of a night!!! awesome!

Mal.C.

[Modernsoulsucks]

I know Vnicepce was floating the notion that Northern has no need of guardians of tradition and as Dave T. pointed out earlier over the years more modern and funkier sounds have found a place under the Northern banner but I think now and again there have been corrections when the balance got out of kilter.

It's not been down to a single Ayatollah as suggested by Vnicepe but a general consensus albeit sometimes instigated by a vocal minority. As evidence I would point to the demise of the pop "Wigan" [altho played everywhere at the time] stomper, the divorce of the latter "jazz-funk" days of the Mecca from the mainstream Northern scene, and the influence of the 60's Mafia at Stafford in reaction to what seemed at the time wall-to-wall 70's and 80's records.

I think today we are seeing another correction in venues such as Burnley and Lifeline perhaps[not been so don't know directly] against across the board and safe oldies do's which is a move back to the ethos of playing newer records in a predominantly 60's style.

I have no idea if "funk" is being played as I personally haven't heard any but Im sure there is no large scale fifth-column pushing that agenda. I heard Mr Trouble at Sunderland some months back and if Willie J and Gene Chandler are the signs of things to come, then we've already been there.

I think in it's right place and right mix funk can be just as exciting as Northern. Im sure Grumpyfella if he's reading this thread can confirm I got a funk set together back in the early 90's and my ex-partner did the actual dj-ing at club "Home" in Manchester mainly, playing the usual Whitney,Byrd, JB productions but throwing in the Vibrettes,Al Trahan,Shades of Time,June X, Carleen & Groovers [sure it was that blue/white label?], the funky Jazz, Hip-Hop, and the funkier grooves like Sisters Love.

I went to a couple of events and the places were rocking BUT I wouldn't imagine any of it would have fitted in with a Northern night and to be honest I didn't feel that the funkier Northern would have fitted in there either.

So I don't think any further dilution of the scene from that direction is on the cards.

To answer Vnicepe's doubts about R&B taking over some years back. I was at an all-dayer in Earby,near Burnley about 5 years ago doing the small alternate room and whenever I ventured into the main room frequently to go to the bar all I heard was 70's oldies and R&B. There was IMO a danger of the 60's being sidelined again but now most venues have a seperate R&B room.

ROD

[Barry]

I think that that my memories of the Northern scene would feel a little empty without a number of the funkier modern tracks mentioned in this thread.

When The Crow or Frankie Crocker or whatever would get dropped in M's, of course it changed the dynamic of the dancefloor while they were on but kinda freshened your soul pallete for the more trad nighter tracks that followed 'em - and I couldn't think of a better track than Curtis to pick the main room's chin and failing legs at 6 in the morning.

I for one am glad I saw those funk/modern tracks played under the 'Northern Soul' banner - as that's what they were and still are to me.

Also think of the characters that attended nighters mainly for records with that sound that added colour to the scene - it was a melting pot then and I would like to think it's not that much different now.