Northern And Funk

[Mace]

all i know is that i'm grateful to be from and living in the usa...when i read these threads, i simply can't relate! me and my dj mates play the whole shebang! funk, deep funk, funky soul, soulful funk, modern funk, modern soul, modern northern soul, mod funk, mod soul, mod r&b, northern mod, soulful garage, mod garage with hammond organs, hammond organs with a pinch of motown-like soul, slightly motown funk with violins, otis redding remixed with northern drums, stax remixed to sound like it is northern, we play motown 45s from 1967, we play rockabilly, modern rockabilly, old rockabilly, pissedoff rockafunky, morown mod garage 45s, acetates with people talking on them,

but absolutely no 12 inches!!! they play 12 inches further down the road...what a sorry scene that is...no one knows how to dance to a 12 inch, put it on a non-funkynorhern dubplate and then we will, and only try at that, and only if the whiskey is strong...

an interesting debate for sure...

The whole shebang...but not one of mention of latin....absolutely disgraceful

[Dave]

Surely The Love Experience is out and out hard funk ?

Didn't see that listed as a play. Great record IMHO.

[Guest andyrattigan]

To me Northern Soul isn't a type of music but rather a scene that plays predominantly 6t's Soul and some 7t's depending on the venue. Lots of people say that 7ts Soul isn't Northen soul but if it was played on that scene then surely it becomes "Northern". Was Blackpool Mecca not a Northern Soul Club?

I've never had a row with anyone about their musical tastes. People don't really choose what they like. They give something a listen a few times (if openminded) and then they know if they like it or not. Or they just hear something, and it grabs them by the balls or their ladybits and that's it their staying up allnight dancing with sweaty middle aged people in the middle of a run down hall. Well that's what happened to me anyway.

On the subject of funk, this music is a sub genre of Soul therefore IMO if we can play Ray Merrell's (an Irish country singer) 'Tears of Joy' then surely we can experiment with Funk? Thing is we already have been. We've just put a different label on it.

I have a wide taste in Soul music. It doesn't make me better than anyone else just means I have broader tastes. I once played SISTERS LOVE- GIMME YOUR LOVE whilst DJing at a Northern night in Dublin many years. I must admit I did it mainly to see the reaction it got. Well it cleared the floor. To me that's a great Soul record with a touch of Funk.

These arguments about Northern/Modern/Funk are a bit baffling to me tbh. Like what you like and go to venues with a similar ethos and if you think they play too many styles and you don't like it, then just don't go back. Conversely, if you go to venues that are too limited in genre/style and you prefer a more varied night then also find another venue.

Do you think any of the artists we all revere ever had any of these arguments that we in Britain have about Soul and its definitions? Did any Soul singers who started in the 6ts quit in the 7ts when things got too Modern? Were there rows between the artists about which genre was Soul? Did Marvin Gaye get told by other Soul singers that "GOT TO GIVE IT UP" wasn't Soul but disco muck?

Lots of Funk tunes might not fit in at certain venues but a healthy Soul scene should be openminded to experiment with decent danceable funk records.

[Dave]

===========

Have to echo Pete's question. Have you never read SS dave, plenty of people on here saying what should and shouldn't be played at northern nights, and most of them aren't your typical dinosaurs. Problem with the northern scene now is that there aren't as many dancers so the thinkers have taken over the music policy, hence some of the uninspired dirges that get spun. I'm not talking about modern/funk etc, referring to the mid-tempo/R&B that gets passed off as 'dance' music. Hmmmm thinking about it, maybe our scene isn't dance driven anymore

Winnie:-)

It's the way he uses the word 'dinosaurs', presumably meaning those of us who prefer the traditional 1966 style northern dancers, except in reality, everybody moans about everything; some people can't stand r & b, some can't stand modern, some can't stand crossover. Very few people like every strand of soul music, same as for instance I don't like every strand of reggae music, even though many people say "it all sounds the same"

Yes Win, I've read the odd thread.. and even got someone to read it to me when there's been big words.

I haven't seen too many say that certain records/styles shouldn't be played. It's generally, as Pete said, folks saying they don't like records/styles... a different thing alltogether.

I'm not keen on crossover, but at my favourite nighter there's always an hour or so of it. I accept that as others enjoy it, and I can mostly fill that hour talking to someone interesting, or even Spot.

I think you have a good point about the dancers, mind.

[Guest wrighty]

Personally I think that's a pretty average record that misses the mark of that 'crossover' potential. One record that succeeds perfectly is the Parisians on Demon Hot though.

But then again, my personal preference is always the rawer productions than the smoother mid 70's efforts - Leroy Clofer is '76 isn't it?

thats it in a nutshell greg....'my personal preference', u prefer the earlier, rawer productions and i happen to like anything and everything from 60's to 80's, thats my choice also, end of and we move on to something new, the thing i find most annoying about this thread is the constant ramming of personal taste down people's throats about what they should and shouldnt listen to

[Toodarnsoulful]

I dont think i can say what has and hasnt a place on the ' northern soul scene' no one should its just a natural progression, i do know that i like funk and was listening to funk before i got into rare soul and i feel its a great stepping stone to introduce new and younger people into 'rare soul'.. the two genre's (soul & Funk) go hand in hand and i dont get why people are so worried when they hear of so called 'funk tracks' being played at northern soul nights? its been happenning obviously for years..

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned James Brown not being accepted?? Tracks like 'People wake up and live' , I love you for sentimental reasons, why did you take your love away from me...and many more are soo fooking soulful and top notch and SHOULD be played!..

just a few pennies worth before the day begins..

L

"THE SOUL SCENE AINT DYING, IT JUST SMELLS FUNKY!!"

[Guest]

Wow this topic has certainly caused a stir! .

Me thinks that as long as the beat is good to dance too then it is okay .

Two tracks that spring to mind which are superb for a bit of stomping or shuffling but have never heard them being played at a N/Soul venue are Dance to the Music (Sly & The Family Stone) & Boogie with your Baby (Willie J & Co) which by the way if you go to www.heartsofsoul.co.uk you will see the legendary Keb dancing too.

I probably have over 1500+ N/S tracks and I can bet that a third of those would probably empty any dance floor. I think it has been said in a few of the replys if we want to keep the scene going for another twenty years we need to get younger people interested, if that means playing different types of music then it must be for the better! .

[Guest James Trouble]

I know what the thread is and i said no and you said yes its as simple as that, you post on other peoples posts and i posted on yours and said that a tune didnt do it for me thats all, educate my ignorence, so far the tunes that are funk and been posted up on here have not done it for me but i might of danced or even enjoyed a funk tune without knowing it,

ps, its not your thread either

NORTHERN AND FUNK GO 2GETHER LIKE OIL AND WATER, IN'T GOING TO HAPPEN, MAYBY YOUNGER CROWD IN LONDON, BUT NOT NORTH OF THE WATFORD GAP, I DON'T THINK ITS GOT A PLACE AT A NIGHTER IN A SEPERATE ROOM, I HEARD FROM A FEW PEOPLE FEW DJS R PLAYING A FEW FUNKS INTO THEIR DJING, AND ITS CLEARING THE FLOOR SHOULD THEY CARRY ON AND MOVE FORWARD OR STOP IT YOUR VIEWS ON THIS IF POSSIBLE BILLY

It's kind of hard to reply to your post because I can't quote you, and it looks like you quote my post and then edit it and highlight bits that you have edited so it looks like you are highlighting bits that I've said, when I haven't, they are parts of my post you have quoted and edited...

But speaking frankly, no one is patronising you, no one is saying what you should or shouldn't like. But it's quite plainly clear that funk has, is and always will be played at northern soul nights as long as poeple are dancing to the records. That's it, there's no "you have to like it". It's just there, always has, always will be, end of of story.

And as Wrighty points out, I don't see anyone who is pointing out that funk has, is and will be played at northern events saying "YOU SHOULD LIKE IT!", but there are plenty of people saying "It's shit and there is no place for this crap at northern soul nights!", which really, when you think about it, is a little bit daft. Quite plainly there is, has and always will be. Whether you like it or not.

My favourate funk 45 of all time, Eddie Parker "I'm Gone", from about 1.20- 2mins is about as funky a record as was ever recorded. The beat, syncopation, the break downs, JB style vocal stabs, it's got the lot. Pure funk.

You don't have to like it, it's just there.

Edited November 20, 2007 by James Trouble

[Simon M]

Ive always thought Eddie Parker "Im gone " was speed funk Oh no Ive said it now

[Paul-s]

it can even be pointed out that the topic starter is often seen at allnighters dancing to funk.

Very, very true, Ive seen Billy on the floor to funk. Maybe we should tap him on the shoulder next time he does it....hes obviously so lost in the groove, he doesn't realise!

[Pete S]

On the subject of funk, this music is a sub genre of Soul therefore IMO if we can play Ray Merrell's (an Irish country singer) 'Tears of Joy' then surely we can experiment with Funk?

Sorry Andy but that is a ridiculous analogy. Disregard who sings Tears Of Joy for a moment. The actual record is 100% genuine northern soul. Which is why it is played and accepted as such. So because the guy is a country singer, this one fact opens the door for people to play non-northern soul releated tracks as northern soul???

[Paul-s]

why did you take your love away from me...and many more are soo fooking soulful and top notch and SHOULD be played!..

I do play it, greeeat tune!

shall i go to the sin bin?

[Guest James Trouble]

Sorry Andy but that is a ridiculous analogy. Disregard who sings Tears Of Joy for a moment. The actual record is 100% genuine northern soul. Which is why it is played and accepted as such. So because the guy is a country singer, this one fact opens the door for people to play non-northern soul releated tracks as northern soul???

I agree Pete. Just because I play that Paradox thing from time to time that I'm told Hennigan also played at Stafford, doesn't mean that early 70s experimental Scottish rock music is northern soul, but there is obviously a place for at least one piece of experimental Scottish rock music from the 70s on the northern soul scene. You don't have to like it, it's just there, because it deserves to be.

Edited November 20, 2007 by James Trouble

[Winnie :-)]

It's kind of hard to reply to your post because I can't quote you, and it looks like you quote my post and then edit it and highlight bits that you have edited so it looks like you are highlighting bits that I've said, when I haven't, they are parts of my post you have quoted and edited...

=============

That's made things a lot clearer

For what its worth James (and those with similar views) I think you're going in the right direction. Too many of us older generation are happy to mark time and march on the spot, which does nothing to help the scene progress and endure.

Winnie:-)

[Pete S]

I agree Pete. Just because I play that Paradox thing from time to time that I'm told Hennigan also played at Stafford, doesn't mean that early 70s experimental Scottish rock music is northern soul, but there is obviously a place for at least one piece of experimental Scottish rock music from the 70s on the northern soul scene. You don't have to like it, it's just there, because it deserves to be.

experimental Scottish rock music from the 70s is rubbish. It has to be experimental Scottish rock music from the 60s.

[Pete S]

I didn't realise this was in that northern soul top 500 book

About as ghetto street funk as was ever made.

245. Skullsnaps - I'm Your Pimp (GSF)

First heard this in 1975. One of the most awesome records I've ever heard, never sounds dated, never sounds anything less than fantastic. I had no idea it was funk!

[Guest Ste Brazil]

First heard this in 1975. One of the most awesome records I've ever heard, never sounds dated, never sounds anything less than fantastic. I had no idea it was funk!

I still love this track, the 45's that are about are boots aren't they, isn't it just an album track? (i could be wrong...)

Funk and Northern go hand in hand IMO, this is why i love Cleethorpes, perfect balance.

Ste.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Ste Brazil

[Pete S]

I still love this track, the 45's that are about are boots aren't they, isn't it just an album track? (i could be wrong...)

Funk and Northern go hand in hand IMO, this is why i love Cleethorpes, perfect balance.

Ste.

Yes LP only, despite some pressings of the album having a sticker on the front saying "contains the hit single I'm Your Pimp"!

[Reg]

Delegates of Soul anyone??

I like funk ( not the Mojo description of funk...obviously) spent a bit of time on the funk scene in the late 80s with my old mate Si Cheeba and I really enjoyed it. I imagine that it's never going to appeal to 60s fans but I don't think playing the odd funk influenced track at a night can be too troublesome. Like Dave said-go and have a chat or a shifty through a few record boxes until something comes on that you do like.

So yes, imo funk does have a place on the rare soul scene

[Guest Ste Brazil]

Yes LP only, despite some pressings of the album having a sticker on the front saying "contains the hit single I'm Your Pimp"!

How much does the album go for now?

Ste.

[Pete S]

How much does the album go for now?

Ste.

Loads I think...counterfeited as well

[Guest Russ Smith]

experimental Scottish rock music from the 70s is rubbish. It has to be experimental Scottish rock music from the 60s.

My Paradox 45 has 1968 on the label.

James' copy must be a later press

Edited November 20, 2007 by Russ Smith

[Jason S]

My favourate funk 45 of all time, Eddie Parker "I'm Gone", from about 1.20- 2mins is about as funky a record as was ever recorded. The beat, syncopation, the break downs, JB style vocal stabs, it's got the lot. Pure funk.

You don't have to like it, it's just there.

James you and I both spent a good few years pounding the floor at Deep Funk and you'll admit that all of the below are bona fide 'Deep Funk' classics. Much as I'd love to hear all of these mixed in with 60's soul at the same venue I can't see it happening (outside of Soul Rev, or Oslo Soul and some of the overseas dos or even Soul Spectrum when it starts...but they aren't as the first poster was hinting at, 'traditional northern do's') or being wanted at a traditional Northern do, and by and large I can see why, much the same way I'd not want to go to Deep Funk and hear some wishy washy Wigan Oldie that bears no resemblance to the kind of stuff I'm into and that I can't relate to, didn't grow up with and says nothing to me about what I want music to be. So, a lot of the examples given of 'funk records' that have been played on the NS scene deviate from the traditional 4/4 northern soul sound but all of those records have been accepted as 'northern' because of when and where they were played, and because of how they could be worked into a set. If funk was ever meant to go hand in hand with northern why are we not hearing as par for the course, the likes of Larry Ellis, The Blenders, Mickey etc at trad (and non-trad) Northern do's? Because it's a different sound, and different beat, and most of it isn't 'soulful'. Much as I'd love to hear the two it's a marginal thing and on the trad NS scene and at the majority of local do's - the 100's that make up the network of clubs the country over - it ain't gonna happen. You try to play SOUL records that you think would get the floor and you're looked at gone out, so playing 'out and out' funk? (not previously accepted, slightly 'funky' or agressive 'aggro soul' sounds) Can't see it taking off on the mainstream.

(Ok, so you'll say that Mickey is now 'accepted' as Northern because some of your mates dance to it, or that the Love Exp must be northern cos Ady says they're dancing to it, or that the Groove Merchants has been played out a few times, but in reality, plonk yourself in a local soul club and play these ten records to a bunch of people who don't know you and see what happens - there'd be f**kin carnage! You may as well drop hardcore gangster rap and plead that the muscial heritage validates it being played as it dervives from Soul )

https://www.funk45.com/rm/carleen_and_the_g..._can_we_rap.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/ellis,_larry_and_...y_thing_pt1.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/blenders_ltd_-_you_got_it_all.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/mickey_and_the_so...ood_is_good.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/ernie_and_the_top..._-_dap_walk.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/frazier,_ray_and_...ave_nothing.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/unknown_-_egg_roll.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/groove_merchants_...eone_for_me.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/forrest,_otis_-_f..._16_corners.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/majestics_-_funky_chick.ram

Edited November 20, 2007 by J-Brew

[BrianB]

Okay maybe a bit more in this thread than I first thought, maybe need to waste some of my working day tomorrow reading this a bit more, in meantime however, not sure I get above.

What Northern scene are you talking about here Brian, I was pretty active on going out from 79-95 and what highlighted above in red was a huge part of my experience of the Northern scene, I assume your timespan was different so therefore are you saying that your experience is more valid than mines??? Are you seriously saying that Black American music should have developed in a way to suit our narrow tastes with the second part.

I totally agree with Petes comments in other threads (maybe not quite so in this one) that if you only like 60's good on you, nobody should try and make you feel inferior for that, but the above basically says your experience is the only valid one!! Sorry mate, I spent many a good year with people, including unbelievably dedicated guys like Mr Thorley above, on a scene that we loved, you dont have the right to say its not valid. You have every right to say its not for you, or you dont like what these people made the scene, I certainly did around 95 when the hordes returned and turned it into the egotistical circus much of it is today.

You say you respect others views but the above clearly doesn't.

Well done in misunderstanding and misquoting everything I have written.

I did not say anything was not or was valid, so please don't go on to say I don't have the right to say whats valid!!!

In respect to the highlighted comment in bold, when did the music ever evolve the way we wanted it to. The music we picked up on in 68, up the the present day, was already outmoded in the States in 68, so how can I want it to continue when it was already dead in the water?

Please, if you are going to try to destroy my point in order to prove yours, get right what I say first.

Last point, when the Cats/Torch/Mecca (pre NY Disco)Casino were playing the Northern soul we all danced to and collected, how many on here were going to the clubs in London, or Chris Hills venues to listen to Funk. Not many!!! We were all trying to bloody avoid it!

Now we have people who want to listen to funk at a Northern do. How many people at a funk do want to listen to northern?

I give up. Funk at a Northern do? Unbelievable!

[Guest andyrattigan]

Sorry Andy but that is a ridiculous analogy. Disregard who sings Tears Of Joy for a moment. The actual record is 100% genuine northern soul. Which is why it is played and accepted as such. So because the guy is a country singer, this one fact opens the door for people to play non-northern soul releated tracks as northern soul???

Hi Pete,

I actually dont mind that Ray Merrell track, the point I'm making is that I think the Northern Soul scene plays music that isn't strictly traditional Soul as in 6t's four to the floor or 6t's midtempo sounds. For me if a Soul record regardless of genre gets palyed and accepted on the Northern Soul scene then it is Northern Soul. It might not be the traditional variety that the original Northern Soulies in the early 7t's preferred but it then becomes Northern if generally accepted. There are even 7t's records with a funk edge such as the Crow that get played at the 100 club a mostly traditional Northern/6t's night. Are all the big 7Ts records that are accepted and played in Northern rooms not Northern simply because they are 7ts records. Bobby Hutton- Lend a Hand. This is a Northern Classic even if it is a 7ts record, same with Montclairs, Skullsnaps and many more.

[Guest Dr Pickles]

James you and I both spent a good few years pounding the floor at Deep Funk and you'll admit that all of the below are bona fide 'Deep Funk' classics. Much as I'd love to hear all of these mixed in with 60's soul at the same venue I can't see it happening (outside of Soul Rev, or Oslo Soul and some of the overseas dos or even Soul Spectrum when it starts...but they aren't as the first poster was hinting at, 'traditional northern do's') or being wanted at a traditional Northern do, and by and large I can see why, much the same way I'd not want to go to Deep Funk and hear some wishy washy Wigan Oldie that bears no resemblance to the kind of stuff I'm into and that I can't relate to, didn't grow up with and says nothing to me about what I want music to be. So, a lot of the examples given of 'funk records' that have been played on the NS scene deviate from the traditional 4/4 northern soul sound but all of those records have been accepted as 'northern' because of when and where they were played, and because of how they could be worked into a set. If funk was ever meant to go hand in hand with northern why are we not hearing as par for the course, the likes of Larry Ellis, The Blenders, Mickey etc at trad (and non-trad) Northern do's? Because it's a different sound, and different beat, and most of it isn't 'soulful'. Much as I'd love to hear the two it's a marginal thing and on the trad NS scene and at the majority of local do's - the 100's that make up the network of clubs the country over - it ain't gonna happen. You try to play SOUL records that you think would get the floor and you're looked at gone out, so playing 'out and out' funk? (not previously accepted, slightly 'funky' or agressive 'aggro soul' sounds) Can't see it taking off on the mainstream.

(Ok, so you'll say that Mickey is now 'accepted' as Northern because some of your mates dance to it, or that the Love Exp must be northern cos Ady says they're dancing to it, or that the Groove Merchants has been played out a few times, but in reality, plonk yourself in a local soul club and play these ten records to a bunch of people who don't know you and see what happens - there'd be f**kin carnage! You may as well drop hardcore gangster rap and plead that the muscial heritage validates it being played as it dervives from Soul )

https://www.funk45.com/rm/carleen_and_the_g..._can_we_rap.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/ellis,_larry_and_...y_thing_pt1.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/blenders_ltd_-_you_got_it_all.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/mickey_and_the_so...ood_is_good.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/ernie_and_the_top..._-_dap_walk.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/frazier,_ray_and_...ave_nothing.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/unknown_-_egg_roll.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/groove_merchants_...eone_for_me.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/forrest,_otis_-_f..._16_corners.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/majestics_-_funky_chick.ram

Got to say that I would be most unhappy to hear those at a Northern night.

However I've got a copy of King Earnest - Soul Stroke which I've played out and went down well with those that can dance to a slightly more uptempo beat.

https://funk45.com/Index.asp?funk=music&amp...2616&cat=id

Doc

[Jimmy A]

Got to say that I would be most unhappy to hear those at a Northern night.

However I've got a copy of King Earnest - Soul Stroke which I've played out and went down well with those that can dance to a slightly more uptempo beat.

https://funk45.com/Index.asp?funk=music&amp...2616&cat=id

Doc

got to agree,would do my head in hearing some of those tracks.At the end of the day let the punter decide,go ahead and play funk and see who keeps going to these do's and who does not.Got nothing against it in a seperate room

[Dave Moore]

I would have thought that the best judges of what funk records are 'accepted' on a traditional NS dancefloor would be the people dancing (or not, as the case may be). Don't need no 'advice' as to what is acceptable in sets, I either like it or don't like it. The likes of Bobby Franklin, Skullsnaps, French Fries, Crocker et al were mahooosive at the time and rightly so....they're bleeding great records. I think J-Brew got the point right. Record after record of street ghetto in yer face funk would bomb I have no doubt, but the insertion of a classy record with a funkier vibe than the 4x 4 beat has always been popular. I think the adage "quality will always out" probably sums it up. So...in answer to the original question posed by Billy it has to be a yes, there is a place for funk records at a 'northern' do.

[Garethx]

Why categorize? Just play the records and let the travelling public decide.

Simple fact of the matter is that music with a pronounced funk influence has been a part of the Northern Soul scene for a very long time.

The size of that part has always shifted and will continue to shift as fashion (from within as opposed to from outside) has always played a bigger part on the scene than we would perhaps care to admit.

Thirty years ago if any deejay had the intention of 'changing the face of the scene' they just went ahead and did it with records in hand rather than a mouse and keyboard.

[Spacehopper]

all very interesting....this is my opinion....we can all name tunes that cross borders between different soul sub genres and have been played and accepted over the years....but as for there being out and out funk SETS played at northern soul events...i think this would be a big mistake....one reason why people have and will always travel from all over the country to a northern event is that it is DIFFERENT to what most clubs are playing...if i want funky soul/funky modern or whatever i dont need to leave bristol ,there is a dozen or more bars and clubs playing the same stuff all weekend...

like it or not MOST modern rooms havnt got the atmosphere of the main rooms and couldnt pull the crowds on their own...again that kinda stuff is played in loads of bars every weekend as it is more mainstream than 60s...it has a different feel ,vibe or whatever you wanna call it....

people have mentioned reggae and ska...i love both from early 60s bluebeat to the latest bashment(hardcore ragga !)....but although the 60s and very early 70s reggae has got a similiar vibe to most northern(as they copied and were influenced by it !)and may work ina third mixed room i wouldnt wanna hear roots or ragga a completely different feel....

sometimes if you try and please everyone.... you end up pleasing no one !

[Paul-s]

Why categorize? Just play the records and let the travelling public decide.

Simple fact of the matter is that music with a pronounced funk influence has been a part of the Northern Soul scene for a very long time.

The size of that part has always shifted and will continue to shift as fashion (from within as opposed to from outside) has always played a bigger part on the scene than we would perhaps care to admit.

Thirty years ago if any deejay had the intention of 'changing the face of the scene' they just went ahead and did it with records in hand rather than a mouse and keyboard.

Thats the truth!

[Guest James Trouble]

James you and I both spent a good few years pounding the floor at Deep Funk and you'll admit that all of the below are bona fide 'Deep Funk' classics. Much as I'd love to hear all of these mixed in with 60's soul at the same venue I can't see it happening (outside of Soul Rev, or Oslo Soul and some of the overseas dos or even Soul Spectrum when it starts...but they aren't as the first poster was hinting at, 'traditional northern do's') or being wanted at a traditional Northern do, and by and large I can see why, much the same way I'd not want to go to Deep Funk and hear some wishy washy Wigan Oldie that bears no resemblance to the kind of stuff I'm into and that I can't relate to, didn't grow up with and says nothing to me about what I want music to be. So, a lot of the examples given of 'funk records' that have been played on the NS scene deviate from the traditional 4/4 northern soul sound but all of those records have been accepted as 'northern' because of when and where they were played, and because of how they could be worked into a set. If funk was ever meant to go hand in hand with northern why are we not hearing as par for the course, the likes of Larry Ellis, The Blenders, Mickey etc at trad (and non-trad) Northern do's? Because it's a different sound, and different beat, and most of it isn't 'soulful'. Much as I'd love to hear the two it's a marginal thing and on the trad NS scene and at the majority of local do's - the 100's that make up the network of clubs the country over - it ain't gonna happen. You try to play SOUL records that you think would get the floor and you're looked at gone out, so playing 'out and out' funk? (not previously accepted, slightly 'funky' or agressive 'aggro soul' sounds) Can't see it taking off on the mainstream.

(Ok, so you'll say that Mickey is now 'accepted' as Northern because some of your mates dance to it, or that the Love Exp must be northern cos Ady says they're dancing to it, or that the Groove Merchants has been played out a few times, but in reality, plonk yourself in a local soul club and play these ten records to a bunch of people who don't know you and see what happens - there'd be f**kin carnage! You may as well drop hardcore gangster rap and plead that the muscial heritage validates it being played as it dervives from Soul )

https://www.funk45.com/rm/carleen_and_the_g..._can_we_rap.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/ellis,_larry_and_...y_thing_pt1.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/blenders_ltd_-_you_got_it_all.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/mickey_and_the_so...ood_is_good.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/ernie_and_the_top..._-_dap_walk.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/frazier,_ray_and_...ave_nothing.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/unknown_-_egg_roll.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/groove_merchants_...eone_for_me.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/forrest,_otis_-_f..._16_corners.ram

https://www.funk45.com/rm/majestics_-_funky_chick.ram

But just because these great records are not played at northern soul events doesn't mean funk isn't, hasn't and won't be played. And of course most of those 10 amazing records won't be played because most of them bear little relevence to northern. But that doesn't mean many funk 45s havn't been played, are nto being played and won't be played.

Steve G has played Groove Merchants, and too right, amazing tune. I've played Mickey after The Crow and had a full floor to it.

Night Of The Wolf + Boogie With Your Baby are probably the two 'deepfunk anthems', woudl you agree? Maybe "Who's The King" as well, but the point being these two tracks are both northern soul and deepfunk.

This thread is an interesting oxymoron, because as Pete Smith has just said, he thinks The Skull Snaps is one of the best records he has ever heard, and it's out and out ghetto funk. And Pete is one of the people who believe there shouldn't be funk on the northern scene. Add to this the fact that Billy, the topic starter is often seen dancing to funk and you'll realise that the "anti funk" side are disproving their own point.

To say there is no place for funk would mean rubbing out parts of northern soul history. It's daft. If it's good and the dance floor is full, it's good.

Delgates Of Soul, a deepfunk group harmony record.

[Guest James Trouble]

all very interesting....this is my opinion....we can all name tunes that cross borders between different soul sub genres and have been played and accepted over the years....but as for there being out and out funk SETS played at northern soul events...i think this would be a big mistake....

Yup.

Nice to hear Soul Stroke getting a few spins, whoever metioned that...

[Guest the dukester]

all very interesting....this is my opinion....we can all name tunes that cross borders between different soul sub genres and have been played and accepted over the years....but as for there being out and out funk SETS played at northern soul events...i think this would be a big mistake....one reason why people have and will always travel from all over the country to a northern event is that it is DIFFERENT to what most clubs are playing...if i want funky soul/funky modern or whatever i dont need to leave bristol ,there is a dozen or more bars and clubs playing the same stuff all weekend...

like it or not MOST modern rooms havnt got the atmosphere of the main rooms and couldnt pull the crowds on their own...again that kinda stuff is played in loads of bars every weekend as it is more mainstream than 60s...it has a different feel ,vibe or whatever you wanna call it....

people have mentioned reggae and ska...i love both from early 60s bluebeat to the latest bashment(hardcore ragga !)....but although the 60s and very early 70s reggae has got a similiar vibe to most northern(as they copied and were influenced by it !)and may work ina third mixed room i wouldnt wanna hear roots or ragga a completely different feel....

sometimes if you try and please everyone.... you end up pleasing no one !

The 60's/70's Ska and Rocksteady Reggae thingy mixed with Northern, RnB thingy is already in place ar certain venues and works well, SCORCHER NIGHTS @ DIGBETH & COMING UP, MUSICAL LIQUIDATOR @ THE HALFTIME ORANGE IN LEICESTER.

[Russ Vickers]

all i know is that i'm grateful to be from and living in the usa...when i read these threads, i simply can't relate! me and my dj mates play the whole shebang! funk, deep funk, funky soul, soulful funk, modern funk, modern soul, modern northern soul, mod funk, mod soul, mod r&b, northern mod, soulful garage, mod garage with hammond organs, hammond organs with a pinch of motown-like soul, slightly motown funk with violins, otis redding remixed with northern drums, stax remixed to sound like it is northern, we play motown 45s from 1967, we play rockabilly, modern rockabilly, old rockabilly, pissedoff rockafunky, morown mod garage 45s, acetates with people talking on them,

but absolutely no 12 inches!!! they play 12 inches further down the road...what a sorry scene that is...no one knows how to dance to a 12 inch, put it on a non-funkynorhern dubplate and then we will, and only try at that, and only if the whiskey is strong...

an interesting debate for sure...

And IMO that's half the problem as to why they'll never be proper NS scene in the US.

Russ

[Russ Vickers]

The other reason is, most of the do's i attended ( & enjoyed BTW) it looked like the dressing room for the extras in an Austin Powers movie.

Russ

Edited November 20, 2007 by Russ Vickers

[Jason S]

But just because these great records are not played at northern soul events doesn't mean funk isn't, hasn't and won't be played. And of course most of those 10 amazing records won't be played because most of them bear little relevence to northern. But that doesn't mean many funk 45s havn't been played, are nto being played and won't be played.

The question i asked was would you play those ten records in the same set at a northern soul night anywhere in the country where the majority of the punters didn't know you or those records on the basis that funk was and is played (and has always been played) on the NS scene? Those are funk records, proper hardcore in your face 'deep' funk records so why not play them if funk is played (and accepted) on the NS scene?

The answer is (as you pointed out) that "most of them bear little relevence to northern". Correct, cos they're funk records, not (Northern) soul records.

Night of the Wolf and Boogie With Your Baby are DF 'anthems' and NS spins yes, but that's not the point, I'm talking about taking straight up and down funk records (that haven't been played on the NS scene) and playing them to the week-in week-out northern soul clubs the country over and seeing how long it takes for the plug to be pulled and marching orders given. Old mecca, cleethorpes classics, fine, because people have grown up with them and know them and have (by and large) accepted them and compared to the ten examples I gave are soul records in essence, but the point I'm making is take 10 'deep Funk' spins into the NS scene and expect traditionalists to accept them? You're having a girraffe, even if they did dance to Mickey a few times. I'm making a (probably really pedantic) distinction between 'established scene spins which are slightly funky and against the norm' against proper funk records that have never been part of the NS scene. Cos they're funk, not funky northerny type records

[Guest James Trouble]

The question i asked was would you play those ten records in the same set at a northern soul night anywhere in the country where the majority of the punters didn't know you or those records on the basis that funk was and is played (and has always been played) on the NS scene? Those are funk records, proper hardcore in your face 'deep' funk records so why not play them if funk is played (and accepted) on the NS scene?

The answer is (as you pointed out) that "most of them bear little relevence to northern". Correct, cos they're funk records, not (Northern) soul records.

Night of the Wolf and Boogie With Your Baby are DF 'anthems' and NS spins yes, but that's not the point, I'm talking about taking straight up and down funk records (that haven't been played on the NS scene) and playing them to the week-in week-out northern soul clubs the country over and seeing how long it takes for the plug to be pulled and marching orders given. Old mecca, cleethorpes classics, fine, because people have grown up with them and know them and have (by and large) accepted them and compared to the ten examples I gave are soul records in essence, but the point I'm making is take 10 'deep Funk' spins into the NS scene and expect traditionalists to accept them? You're having a girraffe, even if they did dance to Mickey a few times. I'm making a (probably really pedantic) distinction between 'established scene spins which are slightly funky and against the norm' against proper funk records that have never been part of the NS scene. Cos they're funk, not funky northerny type records

But no one is saying there should be out and out deepfunk played for hours on end at northern soul events. They'd stop being northern soul events if that was the case. But I think everyone agrees that there has, is and will be 'funk' played at northern events. What's so hard to accept about that? You don't have to like it, it just is, was and will be.

And you're right, you are being pedantic.

[Guest martyn]

Bloody hell, I think he's got it..............a fair description of NS if ever i heard it !!!!!.

Russ

Seconded ! ! !

[Jason S]

But no one is saying there should be out and out deepfunk played for hours on end at northern soul events. They'd stop being northern soul events if that was the case. But I think everyone agrees that there has, is and will be 'funk' played at northern events. What's so hard to accept about that? You don't have to like it, it just is, was and will be.

And you're right, you are being pedantic.

And you're being simple. Ten records = 30 mins. hardly all night now is it.

Oh well, soul spec or soul rev'll do for now

Edited November 20, 2007 by J-Brew

[Jimmy A]

Bootsy Collins, Funkadelic, Parliaments is not "funk" it's funky rock. Only people who read record collector, mojo and civilains think that's funk. Funk is more like "Cold Sweat" not some gay rock funky rock band. There are tons of funk and funk tunes played on the northern scene, but cause you have labeled them northern they are northern. I can assure you if a big dj started playing some of the big funk 45s they would suddenly become northern overnight and you would all somehow be able to apreciate their northerness all of a sudden.

There are three types of northern collector/djs i have met in my travels. The ones that look in your box and ignore the 45s they dont know as they cant be good if they dont know them. Then the smart ones who listen to everthing they dont know, Dyson and Sam are a good example of guys who check it all out and make their own mind up, you might not agree with them but at least they have the stones to make there own mind up whats good and whats not. There is also a rare third breed who know you have some interesting stuff but there ego wont let them check them out as they dont want to admit to not knowing something.

basicly who cares funk is just part of the soul genre and northern cherry picks from all over that genre as well as from some totaly bizzare non soul genres

that comment is not true im afraid

[Guest James Trouble]

Just out of interst, who is this DJ who has been clearing floors with sets of funk on the northern scene?

I get out and about a bit, usually at least once a week, but I've not ever seen a DJ clearing a floor with funk? I Would like to know who it is though, I'd go and check him, or her, out this weekend if anyone can let me know where the event is.

Billy, you started this, let me know pal?!

[Guest martyn]

Pete

You and I will never agree on this, and I'm sure we went to the Casino at the same time, some of the stuff you say isn't northern soul was played at Wigan and many other clubs as new tunes and was called 'Northern Soul', just cuz you don't like it and it dosn't fit your definition of 'Northern Soul', still doesn't mean it isn't. You didn't write the definition of what is, you can't re-write it. You will just have to accept you don't like all forms of Northern Soul, as it was originally played and termed.

The definition, as I remember was coined by Dave Godin, to discribe obscure/non-hit soul music being played in clubs in the North West. In his original definition, there was no mention of 60's only. Also by the time he used the term lots of 70's funky, Philly floating tunes were being played and fell under his decription.

The New definition (60's only) is Northern Soul, is a re-write by people who wish history hadn't happen the way it did cuz it dosn't fit the way they want the world to be.

Hope your having a good day.

Dave

Dave, was it you that used to play Ha Cha Cha -Brass Construction at Yate ?.

I always remember it filling the floor (as did Miroslav Viteos ),now correct me if you all think I'm wrong, but, I would recon 90% of those dancing didn't give a F*** about the record being described as funk in other circles.To me & them it was still Northern................As was 'The Lurch',Ann Sexton,Bernie Williams,Bits n Pieces, & any of the other diverse sounds being played at nighters in those days.Why do we have to worry what a record might be described as these days? If you don't like it don't dance.Simple.

[Guest wrighty]

Edited November 20, 2007 by wrighty

[NEV]

Just out of interst, who is this DJ who has been clearing floors with sets of funk on the northern scene?

I get out and about a bit, usually at least once a week, but I've not ever seen a DJ clearing a floor with funk? I Would like to know who it is though, I'd go and check him, or her, out this weekend if anyone can let me know where the event is.

Billy, you started this, let me know pal?!

James

i reckon that funky tune your listening to at mo ,would go down well in a "northern room"

[Guest fryer]

[jocko]

Modern and moderately funky tracks belong in the Modern or Funk room. End of Story!

I cant quote from posts during day so I have lifted the words directly and inserted them here in bold.

If you are not saying people who have differing views are wrong (or their views are invalid, same meaning from where I stand) then please explain and I will apologise for misquoting you. particularly your very strong End of Story statement. I was part of a scene where for the first 10 years (79-89) it was very common to play 70's record (aka Modern here I suggest), some slightly funky, (Billy Nichols, Curtis as early as end of Wigan) in one room along with standard 60's soul (aka Northern) therefore my view is that is perfectly acceptable and enjoyable when the right records are chosen. My reading is your End Of Story statement above suggests you dont think that is acceptable, fine you dont like it but that is the way the scene evolved and no matter how much you try and re-write history based on your experience pre 1976 can change that. Your choice is to participate or leave, as was mine when the scene evolved into something I didn't personnally like.

Some of the tracks mentioned were tracks that had developed the way Northern/Motown SHOULD have developed.

Again a direct lift, I was trying to get to what you really mean by this, this highlighting of the word SHOULD seems obvious I would suggest but I assumed you couldnt be that personally arrogant to expect a constantly evolving culture to fit our definitions. If you read my posting I am actually asking a question, apologies for the missing question mark but would suggest the intonation is clear otherwise. I am genuinely interested in what you mean by this.

Whilst I understand Pete's not Mr Godin's biggest fan but I hope even he would see Dave Thorley's quotation from David Godin is one of his most pertinent and scarily even more true for todays times (both soul comments and political comments!)

Last point, when the Cats/Torch/Mecca (pre NY Disco)Casino were playing the Northern soul we all danced to and collected, how many on here were going to the clubs in London, or Chris Hills venues to listen to Funk. Not many!!! We were all trying to bloody avoid it!

And just in case you want to question my pre 1976 assumption above it was based on this statement, for clarity are you saying you want the scene to be like it was in these days, when I suspect you were a youngster? If so good for you, lots of local soul nights on 8-1 which I believe are great places for this, good luck to you, I just prefer a scene that progresses which is why I am now only a very occasional visitor.

Now we have people who want to listen to funk at a Northern do. How many people at a funk do want to listen to northern?

And now we have the crux of the matter, and the point that seems to have been lost, I like most others are not saying here that I do necessarily want to hear Funk as I think of it (heavy bass led records from people like Slave & Brass Construction) when I go to a Northern do (I would prefer to call it rare soul also but that is another days argument). However pretty sure thats not what people on here are calling funk, I am not sure other than Jason and James any 2 people are meaning the same when they discuss funk on this thread. Like all genres these days there are a million meanings, and I think the original meaning on this thread is soul records that are funky rather than what Jason highlights quite rightly as a non natural fit. Funky soul has in my opinion been part and parcel of this scene for ever (I only know for ever from 79 remember!)

I think the saddest thing about this the people with the best views of the Northern scene on this thread have been 3 of our funky boys (Gino, James and Jason,) maybe thats because we are all too far up our own backsides worrying about the predominate beat or the cut of cloth most around when we were 17 to just listen to the music and judge with our ears and our feet. And I repeat not saying you have to like it, but despite your protestations Brian you are doing exactly what you and Pete protest about, by saying if it doesnt fit your definition it doesnt get in the gang!

Most interesting was Mr Wright only one to suggest it is all about soul, sad thing for me is Northern scene now, or majority of it, have gone back to losing any connection with the wider soul music genre and any sort of progression is now a major uphill battle and as a result the music will suffer IMVHO!

Edited November 20, 2007 by jocko

[Guest fryer]

im not Gino, Im Fryer, i should make that more obvious tho

[Guest James Trouble]

im not Gino, Im Fryer, i should make that more obvious tho

you're still a cnut though, and that is obvious

Edited November 20, 2007 by James Trouble

[Guest Russ Smith]

you're still a cnut though

Now now... lets not spoil this "friendly" debate