Volumes - I Love You - Chex 1002

[gazman]

can anyone tell me if this has been booted?

thanks

gary

[boba]

can anyone tell me if this has been booted?

thanks

gary

I'm 100% sure this has been booted as a doowop boot, but I'm not sure how to tell the difference, it does look similar to the original.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Don't think it was booted myself - it was a Hot 100 hit after all, and it's never been what you'd really call 'rare' or 'in demand', even among doo wop collectors.

Best way to make sure you don't have a boot? Wait till a UK Fontana copy turns up

[boba]

Don't think it was booted myself - it was a Hot 100 hit after all, and it's never been what you'd really call 'rare' or 'in demand', even among doo wop collectors.

Best way to make sure you don't have a boot? Wait till a UK Fontana copy turns up

Doowop collectors booted all sorts of records, the collecting scene was different then as there was a big demand for "hit" records by collectors in the US and many things were booted ("Repro"d) in the 70s. I'm sure this was booted because I've been handed a copy by a doowop guy and have been told it was a boot. I will call someone and ask how to tell if it's a boot.

[Paul Dunn]

Never seen a boot, I have orig Chex issue, a studio accetate and a UK Fontana. if memory serves me there was also a chex missprint Valumes.

Regards

Paul

[gazman]

Never seen a boot, I have orig Chex issue, a studio accetate and a UK Fontana. if memory serves me there was also a chex missprint Valumes.

Regards

Paul

yes I'm a ware of the valumes copy

[gazman]

can anyone tell me if this has been booted?

thanks

gary

Thanks chaps. I appreciate your help.

It's ebay bound anyway.

gary

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Never seen a boot, I have orig Chex issue, a studio accetate and a UK Fontana. if memory serves me there was also a chex missprint Valumes.

Regards

Paul

Just called two heavyweight doo wop collectors in NY who've been into buying that music for almost as long as I've been alive. Neither recalls an "I Love You" boot on Chex, but both reminded me that it came out a long time afterwards on Trip, Goldies 45 and Virgo reissue 45s.

I also seem to recall a 'Valumes' pressing, but i have an idea it's Jamaican. Would certainly fit nicely with my "Rasco Gordon" on Ja. Top Rank!

[boba]

Just called two heavyweight doo wop collectors in NY who've been into buying that music for almost as long as I've been alive. Neither recalls an "I Love You" boot on Chex, but both reminded me that it came out a long time afterwards on Trip, Goldies 45 and Virgo reissue 45s.

I also seem to recall a 'Valumes' pressing, but i have an idea it's Jamaican. Would certainly fit nicely with my "Rasco Gordon" on Ja. Top Rank!

I think the Valumes is US also, but it's not a boot just a typo in the press. I will call the guy I talked to later today. I might have been confused with the second volumes "the bell" (which I actually own as a boot), I will report back...

[gazman]

Just called two heavyweight doo wop collectors in NY who've been into buying that music for almost as long as I've been alive. Neither recalls an "I Love You" boot on Chex, but both reminded me that it came out a long time afterwards on Trip, Goldies 45 and Virgo reissue 45s.

I also seem to recall a 'Valumes' pressing, but i have an idea it's Jamaican. Would certainly fit nicely with my "Rasco Gordon" on Ja. Top Rank!

Cheers for that.

gary

[Paulw]

Re: Valumes

[gazman]

Re: Valumes

Yeah i saw this mis-typed copy. Mine is the later release chex 1002. thanks for that.

gary

[boba]

I just confirmed with Doowop collector Bob Miner that the volumes "I love you" and the "the bells" *WERE* booted. He was 100% sure on this and also said that the Majestics Gwendolyn has the same press. He says that the vinyl and font color is slightly different on the boots and that all 3 look the same. I have the boot of the second Volumes and can post a scan when I get home if you want to see what the boots look like (assuming you believe me that boots exist of "I love you").

If you don't want to believe me, I'm sure if you consult the Kreiter guide it will say the same thing.

thanks,

Bob

Edited October 11, 2007 by boba

[gazman]

I just confirmed with Doowop collector Bob Miner that the volumes "I love you" and the "the bells" *WERE* booted. He was 100% sure on this and also said that the Majestics Gwendolyn has the same press. He says that the vinyl and font color is slightly different on the boots and that all 3 look the same. I have the boot of the second Volumes and can post a scan when I get home if you want to see what the boots look like (assuming you believe me that boots exist of "I love you").

If you don't want to believe me, I'm sure if you consult the Kreiter guide it will say the same thing.

thanks,

Bob

Bob

Superb info, thanks. I'd be keen to see the boot if you don't mind just to be sure before i sell it on.

thanks

gary

[boba]

Bob

Superb info, thanks. I'd be keen to see the boot if you don't mind just to be sure before i sell it on.

thanks

gary

will post a scan when I get home in a few hours. I think the font color was darker than the bright green on the originals, but I will post a scan to confirm. Thanks.

[boba]

will post a scan when I get home in a few hours. I think the font color was darker than the bright green on the originals, but I will post a scan to confirm. Thanks.

This is my boot of the 2nd volumes 45. The font is slightly darker than the originals and the labels are solid white instead of more cream colored. The vinyl is slightly heavier and the edge comes to a sharper point (the original edge is sort of flat). Also, I checked my original of the other and a small script Sheldon was stamped in the deadwax (which makes sense for where this was pressed, especially given the font). The boot I have (which is supposedly from the east coast in the 70s) has nothing stamped in the dead wax. I don't want to say that all origs will have the stamp, but I will say that if you have a sheldon stamp in the deadwax I would say it's an original.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I just confirmed with Doowop collector Bob Miner that the volumes "I love you" and the "the bells" *WERE* booted. He was 100% sure on this and also said that the Majestics Gwendolyn has the same press. He says that the vinyl and font color is slightly different on the boots and that all 3 look the same. I have the boot of the second Volumes and can post a scan when I get home if you want to see what the boots look like (assuming you believe me that boots exist of "I love you").

If you don't want to believe me, I'm sure if you consult the Kreiter guide it will say the same thing.

thanks,

Bob

You say Potato, I say Potato...

Seriously, and as I said, I also spoke to two heavyweight New York based collector friends of mine who've been at it since the days of Slim Rose and Times Square records. Neither recalls an 'I Love You' bootleg, and they've never let me down yet in the 15 or so years that I've known them.

Of course, it's possible that the record might have been counterfeited, which - as I've said many times one here (and elsewhere) before - is not even close to being the same thing as being bootlegged. We'll never know just how many 60s hits and non-hits were counterfeited, I guess, but for every one that we do know about there must surely be dozens, maybe even hundreds more that have never 'officially' comes to light.

BTW, in his 8th edition - which I think is still the most recent - Kreiter says that the only two 45s that were booted on Chex were "The Bell" and "Gwendolyn". I'd already referred to his work before making my initial statement.

Best,

TONY

PS - your 'boot' looks like a legit copy to me. Jubilee-Josie (i.e. the 'Jay-Gee Record Co. Inc.') took over national distribution of 'I Love You' when the record started to break nationally, and their pressings had slightly different fonts and some additional info on the label. I used to have one of these in the late 60s, before I got a UK Fontana copy. Not for a minute did I entertain the idea that it might be a boot or a counterfeit.

Edited October 12, 2007 by TONY ROUNCE

[Guest]

Chex 1002 - Volumes

The very first press has a typo artist credit, as the Valumes

repressed and ammended artist credit was issued as a local release Detroit 1962 and a hit.

Thus, repressed and Nationally dist. by Jay Cee. (josie, Jubilee etc group of labels.)

I've never noticed a bootleg on this release.

Chex 1005 - Volumes The Bells not so much of a hit, was certainly bootlegged.

Chex 1002 is so common, I see a copy in almost every batch of records I go through. I've never noticed a bootleg, although I am certainly no doo-wop expert and usually ignore the record anyway, as there is no demand for it.

The above is the way I've always understood it, but I'm always open to new info.

Edited October 12, 2007 by john manship

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

'Preciate the 'back-up', John

[boba]

You say Potato, I say Potato...

Seriously, and as I said, I also spoke to two heavyweight New York based collector friends of mine who've been at it since the days of Slim Rose and Times Square records. Neither recalls an 'I Love You' bootleg, and they've never let me down yet in the 15 or so years that I've known them.

Of course, it's possible that the record might have been counterfeited, which - as I've said many times one here (and elsewhere) before - is not even close to being the same thing as being bootlegged. We'll never know just how many 60s hits and non-hits were counterfeited, I guess, but for every one that we do know about there must surely be dozens, maybe even hundreds more that have never 'officially' comes to light.

BTW, in his 8th edition - which I think is still the most recent - Kreiter says that the only two 45s that were booted on Chex were "The Bell" and "Gwendolyn". I'd already referred to his work before making my initial statement.

Best,

TONY

PS - your 'boot' looks like a legit copy to me. Jubilee-Josie (i.e. the 'Jay-Gee Record Co. Inc.') took over national distribution of 'I Love You' when the record started to break nationally, and their pressings had slightly different fonts and some additional info on the label. I used to have one of these in the late 60s, before I got a UK Fontana copy. Not for a minute did I entertain the idea that it might be a boot or a counterfeit.

Hi Tony. My original press of the first one has the cream colored label with the lighter font and it say "jay-gee" on it. So at least the darker font and white label isn't an indication of that necessarily. I don't have anything else to say at this point as I'm deferring to the knowledge of the collector I got the info from. He did say that these came out of the east coast in the 70s and were passed off as originals frequently so that some people might not know about them. Obviously he might also be wrong. If anyone wants to call him he's at the Record Dugout today in the afternoon (CDT) and the number there is 773-586-1206. Obviously this is going sort of far for finding out whether a common record is a boot or not.

I do know that this was a hit record, as you note, and the original seller is more likely to have an OG press than a boot of this specific title just because it was a hit.

thanks,

Bob

[boba]

Of course, it's possible that the record might have been counterfeited, which - as I've said many times one here (and elsewhere) before - is not even close to being the same thing as being bootlegged. We'll never know just how many 60s hits and non-hits were counterfeited, I guess, but for every one that we do know about there must surely be dozens, maybe even hundreds more that have never 'officially' comes to light.

Also, I'm confused by your above statement -- what the difference between counterfeiting and bootlegging? I was using both as a copy of the original passed off as an original, are you saying that a bootleg isn't that or something? Thanks.

[gazman]

Dear All

I didn't mean to open such a can of worms over such a relatively insignificant record. The reason i asked was i got a mint copy very cheap (£2.95) and on closer inspection had doubts over it's authenticity, i.e it looked different from other chex records I'd seen. It is the same as the one Bob has posted. Truth be told it'll probably end up on ebay.

I am most grateful for all your advice/comments as ever it's been an education and a fascinating one at that.

Thanks to all

gary

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Also, I'm confused by your above statement -- what the difference between counterfeiting and bootlegging? I was using both as a copy of the original passed off as an original, are you saying that a bootleg isn't that or something? Thanks.

This one is always open to debate, but we've had it on here before so it's worth rehashing I think.

A counterfeit is a bootleg of sorts, but a bootleg isn't a counterfeit. Records that were illegally manufactured at the time of a record's original release, using the original label design (or something close to it) and sold to distributors as originals, are counterfeits. Its well known that at least a few Motown hits were counterfeited, "My Guy", "Ask The Lonely" and "Baby I Need Your Loving" being three that have been positively identified, "My Guy" by the former Mrs. Berry Gordy Jr., Raynoma Liles Singleton - who was actually behind the counterfeiting herself. There's a weird looking pressing of Edwin Starr's "S.O.S" that the majority of those who've seen think is a counterfeit. There are other examples in the rock world, as well as possibly hundreds more soul and pop tunes that became counterfeits when someone at the pressing plant 'forgot' to stop the press at the record company's requested pressing, and sold the extra runs at a cut rate to unscrupulous wholesalers.

Bootlegs are another matter. I always think of a bootleg as something that's pressed without the knowledge of the copyright owners, just like counterfeits, but not usually to compete with any contemporary sales of the record in question. Counterfeits will always endeavour to look like a genuine pressing. Some bootlegs do (including a lot of R & B, R 'n' R and doo-wop 45s) and as many again don't (think Soul Sounds, Out Of the Past, Soul Galore or any other high profile northern bootleg imprint). Unlike counterfeits, most bootlegs are pressed to satisfy a specialist collector market, rather than the mainstream buyer.

There's no real specialist collector market that I know of for "I Love You" -which, as John M says, is and always has been a really common record, with little resale value in any of its US pressings, except for the 'Valumes' one obviously. But it might well have been counterfeited at the time of its original release , perhaps to meet demand in areas where the tiny Chex label had no distribution of its own. "Bootlegged" would, to me, imply that there was a pressing done long after the event (not counting the perfectly legit Jubilee 'Jay Gee' one) because collectors were clamouring for copies. Which, given the amount of legit reissues that "I Love You" had on Virgo, Goldies 45 and Trip during the late 60s/early 70s, doesn't seem likely.

Hope that's clearer to you than it is to me! Time for a lie down, I think

Best,

TONY

[boba]

This one is always open to debate, but we've had it on here before so it's worth rehashing I think.

A counterfeit is a bootleg of sorts, but a bootleg isn't a counterfeit. Records that were illegally manufactured at the time of a record's original release, using the original label design (or something close to it) and sold to distributors as originals, are counterfeits. Its well known that at least a few Motown hits were counterfeited, "My Guy", "Ask The Lonely" and "Baby I Need Your Loving" being three that have been positively identified, "My Guy" by the former Mrs. Berry Gordy Jr., Raynoma Liles Singleton - who was actually behind the counterfeiting herself. There's a weird looking pressing of Edwin Starr's "S.O.S" that the majority of those who've seen think is a counterfeit. There are other examples in the rock world, as well as possibly hundreds more soul and pop tunes that became counterfeits when someone at the pressing plant 'forgot' to stop the press at the record company's requested pressing, and sold the extra runs at a cut rate to unscrupulous wholesalers.

Bootlegs are another matter. I always think of a bootleg as something that's pressed without the knowledge of the copyright owners, just like counterfeits, but not usually to compete with any contemporary sales of the record in question. Counterfeits will always endeavour to look like a genuine pressing. Some bootlegs do (including a lot of R & B, R 'n' R and doo-wop 45s) and as many again don't (think Soul Sounds, Out Of the Past, Soul Galore or any other high profile northern bootleg imprint). Unlike counterfeits, most bootlegs are pressed to satisfy a specialist collector market, rather than the mainstream buyer.

There's no real specialist collector market that I know of for "I Love You" -which, as John M says, is and always has been a really common record, with little resale value in any of its US pressings, except for the 'Valumes' one obviously. But it might well have been counterfeited at the time of its original release , perhaps to meet demand in areas where the tiny Chex label had no distribution of its own. "Bootlegged" would, to me, imply that there was a pressing done long after the event (not counting the perfectly legit Jubilee 'Jay Gee' one) because collectors were clamouring for copies. Which, given the amount of legit reissues that "I Love You" had on Virgo, Goldies 45 and Trip during the late 60s/early 70s, doesn't seem likely.

Hope that's clearer to you than it is to me! Time for a lie down, I think

Best,

TONY

Just to clarify, you're saying that the difference is that a "counterfeit" was pressed at the time of release to pass off onto the regular record buying public and a "bootleg" is pressed later for some other specialized market, right? Am I stating what you are saying correctly? Probably in doowop terms, the "bootleg" would be called a "repro".

Once more thing I wanted to clarify, by the way, is that the Jay Gee distribution of the first volumes record still has the "sheldon" stamp. I don't know why a copy pressed at the time this record came out wouldn't (obviously there are different runs, etc. so it might I guess). I'm pretty sure that at least the record I posted, which is not the first Volumes 45, is a "boot". I obviously have not produced evidence of a boot of the first one besides one person's word. It's funny because at this point we're not going to agree, and it's not going to matter much since it's such a worthless record it's easily replacable as an original, but it is funny that there are potentially fakes of something that doesn't matter.

Gazman, does your copy have a sheldon stamp? You said it looks like the one I posted. Thanks.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Just to clarify, you're saying that the difference is that a "counterfeit" was pressed at the time of release to pass off onto the regular record buying public and a "bootleg" is pressed later for some other specialized market, right? Am I stating what you are saying correctly? Probably in doowop terms, the "bootleg" would be called a "repro".

(TR - Correct, correct and correct!)

Once more thing I wanted to clarify, by the way, is that the Jay Gee distribution of the first volumes record still has the "sheldon" stamp. I don't know why a copy pressed at the time this record came out wouldn't (obviously there are different runs, etc. so it might I guess). I'm pretty sure that at least the record I posted, which is not the first Volumes 45, is a "boot". I obviously have not produced evidence of a boot of the first one besides one person's word. It's funny because at this point we're not going to agree, and it's not going to matter much since it's such a worthless record it's easily replacable as an original, but it is funny that there are potentially fakes of something that doesn't matter.

(TR - I would imagine that, when Jubilee took over distribution of "I Love You", they retrieved the original Chex stampers from Sheldon's in Chicago - one of the best mastering houses ever, IMO - so that no (more?) counterfeiting could take place. Jubilee had their own in-house mastering facilities (as well as a their own pressing plant and album sleeve manufacturing equipment, a real 'full service' record company like King was) so they might well have cut a new master at their own place, especially if the Sheldon one was showing sings of wear and tear - or maybe even just to identify it as one of their 'own' records.

I know what you're saying about 'doesn't matter' but the whole thing about counterfeited records is that most of them don't really matter in terms of rarity. But think of the amount of 45s that used to be sold back in the day and imagine what you could do with the pure profit from the sales of a few million 'don't matter' counterfeits ).

Gazman, does your copy have a sheldon stamp? You said it looks like the one I posted. Thanks.

Edited October 12, 2007 by TONY ROUNCE

[gazman]

Just to clarify, you're saying that the difference is that a "counterfeit" was pressed at the time of release to pass off onto the regular record buying public and a "bootleg" is pressed later for some other specialized market, right? Am I stating what you are saying correctly? Probably in doowop terms, the "bootleg" would be called a "repro".

Once more thing I wanted to clarify, by the way, is that the Jay Gee distribution of the first volumes record still has the "sheldon" stamp. I don't know why a copy pressed at the time this record came out wouldn't (obviously there are different runs, etc. so it might I guess). I'm pretty sure that at least the record I posted, which is not the first Volumes 45, is a "boot". I obviously have not produced evidence of a boot of the first one besides one person's word. It's funny because at this point we're not going to agree, and it's not going to matter much since it's such a worthless record it's easily replacable as an original, but it is funny that there are potentially fakes of something that doesn't matter.

Gazman, does your copy have a sheldon stamp? You said it looks like the one I posted. Thanks.

Bob

Sorry, just to put a spanner in the works mine is still in the mail to me. It was one of a bunch that Id bought so I only had the photo to go on, which as i said aroused my suspicion. The photo resembles the one you posted. As I've previously mentioned I intend to ebay it, however I wanted to be sure exactly what it was first for 1/ personal Interest, 2/ don't want to sell on a dud.

You are right in what you say that there are fakes of records that don't matter although i can understand unscrupulous people cashing in on a records 'popular' (mainstream) success. This might be a story with no ending!?

gary

[Chalky]

As featured in one of the best films ever made...The Wanderers