You Have To Wonder Why

[Guest James Trouble]

At the cleethorpes alldayer Rob Thomas, who I had never met before came up to me and said

"You must be James Trouble, that Willie Kendricks acetate and all them you've got I had all those 10 years ago"

Now, I've never met the man before, so this was a rather strange introduction. I replied

"Oh great, it's good isn't it, so if you had them 10 years ago why havn't you ever played them?"

He said it's because he doesn't DJ very often, which is rather odd, as I have seen him on flyers reguarly in the past few years...

Then last night at Mick's Union, and Rob Thomas was there, which he has not been to for years, I am led to believe. Then one of the DJs who was on before me, Micko I think (but I'll need to check), played my Willie Kendricks acetate. I was surprised at this, went to the deck, and it was of course a bootleg, and a poor sounding muddy bootleg as well. I ask him what it was, and he didn't know, he said Rob thomas had given it to him. I stopped the record and took it off, told him what it was, and I asked Rob Thomas why he was being a c*** giving out bootlegs of my records to DJs to play before me. He said, and I'm gettign pretty used to hearing this, as it's the only thing he's ever said to me "I had it ten years ago, I've got the master tape I'll do what I like".

So, the obvious question is why would a man have a tape (let's not call it a master tape, as my suspicion is it is a recording taken of the acetate as it came into the country 10 years ago) for 10 years (if hsi story is even true) and not use it untill I make the record popular? If he doesn't like it that much to have not used it for 10 years, why would he travel to a club a good 1 1/2 hours from his house that he has not been to for years to give a DJ who was clueless about what was going on, a bootleg of it to play before my set?

It's irrelevent that it's a master tape, or an audio tape recording of my acetate made 10 years ago as it came into this counrty. It's still bootlegging a record and giving it to a DJ tp play before me, who then ends up looking stupid by getting caught up in Rob Thomas's silly game. It's very strange and twisted behaviour, don't you think? Tell me if I'm wrong?

Edited October 7, 2007 by James Trouble

[Simon M]

Quite normal for the 60's rare soul scene James

[Guest Ivor Jones]

At the cleethorpes alldayer Rob Thomas, who I had never met before came up to me and said

"You must be James Trouble, that Willie Kendricks acetate and all them you've got I had all those 10 years ago"

Now, I've never met the man before, so this was a rather strange introduction. I replied

"Oh great, it's good isn't it, so if you had them 10 years ago why havn't you ever played them?"

He said it's because he doesn't DJ very often, which is rather odd, as I have seen him on flyers reguarly in the past few years...

Then last night at Mick's Union, and Rob Thomas was there, which he has not been to for years, I am led to believe. Then one of the DJs who was on before me, Micko I think (but I'll need to check), played my Willie Kendricks acetate. I was surprised at this, went to the deck, and it was of course a bootleg, and a poor sounding muddy bootleg as well. I ask him what it was, and he didn't know, he said Rob thomas had given it to him. I stopped the record and took it off, told him what it was, and I asked Rob Thomas why he was being a c*** giving out bootlegs of my records to DJs to play before me. He said, and I'm gettign pretty used to hearing this, as it's the only thing he's ever said to me "I had it ten years ago, I've got the master tape I'll do what I like".

So, the obvious question is why would a man have a tape (let's not call it a master tape, as my suspicion is it is a recording taken of the acetate as it came into the country 10 years ago) for 10 years (if hsi story is even true) and not use it untill I make the record popular? If he doesn't like it that much to have not used it for 10 years, why would he travel to a club a good 1 1/2 hours from his house that he has not been to for years to give a DJ who was clueless about what was going on, a bootleg of it to play before my set?

It's irrelevent that it's a master tape, or an audio tape recording of my acetate made 10 years ago as it came into this counrty. It's still bootlegging a record and giving it to a DJ tp play before me, who then ends up looking stupid by getting caught up in Rob Thomas's silly game. It's very strange and twisted behaviour, don't you think? Tell me if I'm wrong?

WELCOME TO THE STRANGE WORLD OF NORTHERN SOUL JAMES..........

HERE`S A BIT OF ADVICE.

DONT TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY MATE.

IF YOU PLAYED CHEAP RECORDS, YOU`D BE UNDER THE RADAR OF ROB THOMAS.......

HE WOULDNT THINK OF PLAYING THEM

WHY CANT YOU BOTH JUST GET ALONG....?

[Guest dundeedavie]

At the cleethorpes alldayer Rob Thomas, who I had never met before came up to me and said

"You must be James Trouble, that Willie Kendricks acetate and all them you've got I had all those 10 years ago"

Now, I've never met the man before, so this was a rather strange introduction. I replied

"Oh great, it's good isn't it, so if you had them 10 years ago why havn't you ever played them?"

He said it's because he doesn't DJ very often, which is rather odd, as I have seen him on flyers reguarly in the past few years...

Then last night at Mick's Union, and Rob Thomas was there, which he has not been to for years, I am led to believe. Then one of the DJs who was on before me, Micko I think (but I'll need to check), played my Willie Kendricks acetate. I was surprised at this, went to the deck, and it was of course a bootleg, and a poor sounding muddy bootleg as well. I ask him what it was, and he didn't know, he said Rob thomas had given it to him. I stopped the record and took it off, told him what it was, and I asked Rob Thomas why he was being a c*** giving out bootlegs of my records to DJs to play before me. He said, and I'm gettign pretty used to hearing this, as it's the only thing he's ever said to me "I had it ten years ago, I've got the master tape I'll do what I like".

So, the obvious question is why would a man have a tape (let's not call it a master tape, as my suspicion is it is a recording taken of the acetate as it came into the country 10 years ago) for 10 years (if hsi story is even true) and not use it untill I make the record popular? If he doesn't like it that much to have not used it for 10 years, why would he travel to a club a good 1 1/2 hours from his house that he has not been to for years to give a DJ who was clueless about what was going on, a bootleg of it to play before my set?

It's irrelevent that it's a master tape, or an audio tape recording of my acetate made 10 years ago as it came into this counrty. It's still bootlegging a record and giving it to a DJ tp play before me, who then ends up looking stupid by getting caught up in Rob Thomas's silly game. It's very strange and twisted behaviour, don't you think? Tell me if I'm wrong?

sounds like he got it in for you chief ....what could you have done to deserve it?

[mischief]

Can understand you not being very happy, but is this really a question for a forum.. surely its seems personal for you and Rob Thomas to sort out.

more to the fact if he was there why diddn't you sort it out then and there?

[Simon M]

Imagine if your whole set was pressed onto an LP ..It has happend before , think it was Searlings set

[Guest James Trouble]

Can understand you not being very happy, but is this really a question for a forum.. surely its seems personal for you and Rob Thomas to sort out.

more to the fact if he was there why diddn't you sort it out then and there?

Of course it is, or is it ok for bootlegs to be played on the scene? If this sort of thing is ok to do, can you tell me why?

[Cunnie]

I stopped the record and took it off,

It's very strange and twisted behaviour, don't you think?

Not going into the rights & wrongs of playing boots (been done on here umpteen times before) but if I was DJ'ing & someone did this to me you'd see some 'very strange & twisted behaviour'.

[Guest gordon russell]

Of course it is, or is it ok for bootlegs to be played on the scene? If this sort of thing is ok to do, can you tell me why?

was a dj not playing a boot or two last time you where there,? you never commented on that occasion....how ever do agree NO BOOTS

[Simon M]

Heres a recent thread on it James ..

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...ic=54807&hl=

[mischief]

Of course it is, or is it ok for bootlegs to be played on the scene? If this sort of thing is ok to do, can you tell me why?

I'm not saying bootlegs should be played.. and that is my view, and I will always stick by that..

but if Rob Thomas knew you had the "Original Acetate" which you say he does and he knew you was djing then it sounds personnal, and you need to sort it out with him..

is your acetate an orignal or taken from hes tapes?

if its the original then you need to speak with him.. only he can answer why he gave it to the other dj before you went on. No one on here can answer for him can they?

[Guest James Trouble]

I'm not saying bootlegs should be played.. and that is my view, and I will always stick by that..

but if Rob Thomas knew you had the "Original Acetate" which you say he does and he knew you was djing then it sounds personnal, and you need to sort it out with him..

is your acetate an orignal or taken from hes tapes?

if its the original then you need to speak with him.. only he can answer why he gave it to the other dj before you went on. No one on here can answer for him can they?

No, mine is the original RCA reference acetate. The only person who says Rob Thomas has master tapes is Rob Thomas, but that's irrrelevent anyway, if he has or not. He's still giving bootlegs of it out to unsuspecting DJs. But my opinion is he doesn't have the mastertapes and has a recording of my acetate. But it's irrelevent.

I did ask him why he did it, he said, and it's pretty much the only thing he has ever said to me is "I had it ten years ago, I'll do what I want".

[Simon M]

Time to move , WK , on then James ..

Edited October 7, 2007 by Simon M

[mischief]

Well thats your answer to why he done it then... "I had it ten years ago, I'll do what I want".

More to the point you took it off whilst the other dj was playing it..

did you take it off while it was still playing?

[Steve G]

More to the point you took it off whilst the other dj was playing it..

did you take it off while it was still playing?

Yeah I was thinking that....was there dead air time whilst the DJs were sorting themselves out or what?

[Guest Ivor Jones]

No, mine is the original RCA reference acetate. The only person who says Rob Thomas has master tapes is Rob Thomas, but that's irrrelevent anyway, if he has or not. He's still giving bootlegs of it out to unsuspecting DJs. But my opinion is he doesn't have the mastertapes and has a recording of my acetate. But it's irrelevent.

I did ask him why he did it, he said, and it's pretty much the only thing he has ever said to me is "I had it ten years ago, I'll do what I want".

YOU KNOW WHAT JAMES, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT ISSUES HERE...........

AS A COLLECTOR,IF I PAY A STUPID AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR SOMETHING AND IT TURNS UP OR GETS BOOTLEGGED THEN I CANT BLAME ANYONE ELSE BUT MY SELF CAN I ? I MEAN WE DONT OWN THE MUSIC DO WE, THATS RESERVED FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY MADE IT ISNT IT. WE JUST COLLECT RECORDS..........

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT MOST,IF NOT ALL OF THE SPATS ON THE SCENE ARE BETWEEN PEOPLE WANTING TO "OWN" THE MUSIC OR THE SCENE ITSELF......

REALLY, WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF TYPICAL NORTHERN SOUL BOLLOCKS OF ONE -UPMANISHIP. IS THIS REALLY ABOUT MUSIC OR FORMATS........

FACT IS,IF ROB HAS A RECORDING OF THIS HE`S ENTITLED TO DO WHAT HE WANTS WITH IT ISNT HE ? YOU SAY ITS A BOOTLEG BUT IF THE ITEM HAS NEVER SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY AS A REGULAR RELEASE THEN HOW CAN IT BE A BOOTLEG...... AND WHAT MAKES AN RCA ACETATE MORE VALID ....?

THE FACT IS MATE,NEITHER YOU,NOR ANYONE ON THIS SCENE HAS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO ANY OF THESE OLD RECORDS UNLESS OF COURSE YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE RIGHTS...AND EVEN THEN ITS OFTEN A VERY DUBIOUS LEGAL LOOPHOLE........

I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE TIE THEMSELVES UP IN KNOTS OVER THE PLAYING OF ACETATES. I MEAN ITS DIFFERENT IF THE RECORD HAS BEEN RELEASED,PARTICULARLY ON VINYL,BUT IF ITS SOMETHING THATS UNISSUED THEN I JUST DONT GET IT IM AFRAID.......I RECKON ITS OPEN SEASON ON UNISSUED STUFF LIKE THAT. ITS NOT LIKE BOOTLEGGING 500 COPIES AND SELLING THEM IS IT.

THAT WOULD BE OUT OF ORDER.........

WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS SOMEONE GETTING A COPY FOR THERE OWN PERSONAL DEE -JAYING USE..........

JUST MY OPINION OF COURSE..........

I LIKE YOUR ENTHUSIASM JAMES BUT I JUST THINK YOUR WRONG ON THIS ONE MATE,

BEST, IVOR

[Simon M]

Best post youve done Ivor mate ..I'll get ya a Diamond white and Stella cocktail next time I see ya

Edited October 7, 2007 by Simon M

[Dave]

YOU KNOW WHAT JAMES, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT ISSUES HERE...........

AS A COLLECTOR,IF I PAY A STUPID AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR SOMETHING AND IT TURNS UP OR GETS BOOTLEGGED THEN I CANT BLAME ANYONE ELSE BUT MY SELF CAN I ? I MEAN WE DONT OWN THE MUSIC DO WE, THATS RESERVED FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY MADE IT ISNT IT. WE JUST COLLECT RECORDS..........

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT MOST,IF NOT ALL OF THE SPATS ON THE SCENE ARE BETWEEN PEOPLE WANTING TO "OWN" THE MUSIC OR THE SCENE ITSELF......

REALLY, WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF TYPICAL NORTHERN SOUL BOLLOCKS OF ONE -UPMANISHIP. IS THIS REALLY ABOUT MUSIC OR FORMATS........

FACT IS,IF ROB HAS A RECORDING OF THIS HE`S ENTITLED TO DO WHAT HE WANTS WITH IT ISNT HE ? YOU SAY ITS A BOOTLEG BUT IF THE ITEM HAS NEVER SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY AS A REGULAR RELEASE THEN HOW CAN IT BE A BOOTLEG...... AND WHAT MAKES AN RCA ACETATE MORE VALID ....?

THE FACT IS MATE,NEITHER YOU,NOR ANYONE ON THIS SCENE HAS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO ANY OF THESE OLD RECORDS UNLESS OF COURSE YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE RIGHTS...AND EVEN THEN ITS OFTEN A VERY DUBIOUS LEGAL LOOPHOLE........

I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE TIE THEMSELVES UP IN KNOTS OVER THE PLAYING OF ACETATES. I MEAN ITS DIFFERENT IF THE RECORD HAS BEEN RELEASED,PARTICULARLY ON VINYL,BUT IF ITS SOMETHING THATS UNISSUED THEN I JUST DONT GET IT IM AFRAID.......I RECKON ITS OPEN SEASON ON UNISSUED STUFF LIKE THAT. ITS NOT LIKE BOOTLEGGING 500 COPIES AND SELLING THEM IS IT.

THAT WOULD BE OUT OF ORDER.........

WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS SOMEONE GETTING A COPY FOR THERE OWN PERSONAL DEE -JAYING USE..........

JUST MY OPINION OF COURSE..........

I LIKE YOUR ENTHUSIASM JAMES BUT I JUST THINK YOUR WRONG ON THIS ONE MATE,

BEST, IVOR

No need to shout mate!

Setting aside the legal rights to the music, priming the other DJ was obviously a wind-up tactic, and it strikes me as a bit lacking in respect/manners to Mick, the promoter as well.

Maybe Rob's lost the plot a bit.. at the Cleggy dayer he was bragging to anyone who'd listen about how he'd kept the floor clear for an hour.

I know he reads SS, so we might see an explanation. Doubtful though.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Best post youve done Ivor mate ..I'll get ya a Diamond white and Stella cocktail next time I see ya

CAN YOU SKIP THAT AND JUST GET ME WIG SIMON

[Simon M]

CAN YOU SKIP THAT AND JUST GET ME WIG SIMON

I told ya I got a Jarzinho wig here for ya , makes ya play better football

[Guest dundeedavie]

YOU KNOW WHAT JAMES, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT ISSUES HERE...........

AS A COLLECTOR,IF I PAY A STUPID AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR SOMETHING AND IT TURNS UP OR GETS BOOTLEGGED THEN I CANT BLAME ANYONE ELSE BUT MY SELF CAN I ? I MEAN WE DONT OWN THE MUSIC DO WE, THATS RESERVED FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY MADE IT ISNT IT. WE JUST COLLECT RECORDS..........

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT MOST,IF NOT ALL OF THE SPATS ON THE SCENE ARE BETWEEN PEOPLE WANTING TO "OWN" THE MUSIC OR THE SCENE ITSELF......

REALLY, WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF TYPICAL NORTHERN SOUL BOLLOCKS OF ONE -UPMANISHIP. IS THIS REALLY ABOUT MUSIC OR FORMATS........

FACT IS,IF ROB HAS A RECORDING OF THIS HE`S ENTITLED TO DO WHAT HE WANTS WITH IT ISNT HE ? YOU SAY ITS A BOOTLEG BUT IF THE ITEM HAS NEVER SEEN THE LIGHT OF DAY AS A REGULAR RELEASE THEN HOW CAN IT BE A BOOTLEG...... AND WHAT MAKES AN RCA ACETATE MORE VALID ....?

THE FACT IS MATE,NEITHER YOU,NOR ANYONE ON THIS SCENE HAS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO ANY OF THESE OLD RECORDS UNLESS OF COURSE YOU HAVE PAID FOR THE RIGHTS...AND EVEN THEN ITS OFTEN A VERY DUBIOUS LEGAL LOOPHOLE........

I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE TIE THEMSELVES UP IN KNOTS OVER THE PLAYING OF ACETATES. I MEAN ITS DIFFERENT IF THE RECORD HAS BEEN RELEASED,PARTICULARLY ON VINYL,BUT IF ITS SOMETHING THATS UNISSUED THEN I JUST DONT GET IT IM AFRAID.......I RECKON ITS OPEN SEASON ON UNISSUED STUFF LIKE THAT. ITS NOT LIKE BOOTLEGGING 500 COPIES AND SELLING THEM IS IT.

THAT WOULD BE OUT OF ORDER.........

WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS SOMEONE GETTING A COPY FOR THERE OWN PERSONAL DEE -JAYING USE..........

JUST MY OPINION OF COURSE..........

I LIKE YOUR ENTHUSIASM JAMES BUT I JUST THINK YOUR WRONG ON THIS ONE MATE,

BEST, IVOR

i took the point to be the fact that someone deliberately made sure james couldn't play the acetate (or he'd look like a twat doing it )by giving a "copy" of said tune to an unwitting earlier dj

[Guest Ivor Jones]

No need to shout mate!

Setting aside the legal rights to the music, priming the other DJ was obviously a wind-up tactic, and it strikes me as a bit lacking in respect/manners to Mick, the promoter as well.

Maybe Rob's lost the plot a bit.. at the Cleggy dayer he was bragging to anyone who'd listen about how he'd kept the floor clear for an hour.

I know he reads SS, so we might see an explanation. Doubtful though.

SORRY DAVE, DONT MEAN TO SHOUT MATE,I JUST FIND IT EASIER TO USE CAPITALS!!!!!

TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR POINT ABOUT THE OTHER DEEJAY,[MICK]. I DOUBT HE WAS VERY HAPPY ABOUT HAVING HIS RECORD TAKEN OFF.

I WANNA KNOW WHAT HE PUT ON NEXT.......

WAS IT "KUNG-FU FIGHTING" ........

[Ady Croasdell]

I've got a slightly vested interest here as I was the one who sold James the original. From what I've heard it does seem odd and extreme behaviour from Rob.

I disagree with Ivor about it being open season for unissued recordings, what's the difference between an original acetate and a very rare 45 where perhaps there's one or two known copies. If someone gets hold of a tape of either and makes up their own acetate it's the same type of act and if we're to have any rules on this scene i don't see why it's acceptable to play either.

However if the tape was given by the artist or label owner to promote their work then I would consider that acceptable so I suppose it's down to where did the tape come from and was it obtained honestly.

And I'd have thought this forum was exactly the sort of place to discuss Northern Soul DJing matters and ethics.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

i took the point to be the fact that someone deliberately made sure james couldn't play the acetate (or he'd look like a twat doing it )by giving a "copy" of said tune to an unwitting earlier dj

YEAH, TOTALLY. ITS NOT REALLY THE DONE THING IS IT.......?

BUT SURELY THE THING TO DO IS TAKE IT ON THE CHIN AND NOT GET TOO WOUND UP ABOUT IT.

SURELY HE HAS OTHER RECORDS WORTHY OF A SPIN SO PLAY THEM INSTEAD.

BEST, IVOR

[oldsteve woomble]

Anyways, controversy aside, as our Cleethorpes All dayer has been mentioned in despatches thanks to everyone who came!! To keep slightly on thread I thought JT and Rob each played stonking spots in their own way. And as 500 people who own 'Five Minutes' on Monca were reported as saying when asked what records they've got....... "We've all got our Differences" BU-BUM!!

JT, Rob you're both top geezers so give each other a kiss and a cuddle.

BTW, things are coming back to me in an 'oh-oh did that really happen' kind of way. Best Cleethorpes all-dayer set for me was The Captains 3 records. Absolute class and total Shaun. Outstanding.

I've only just sobered up.......... Ouch

[Soul Shrews]

Wasn't there .........don"t know the record ...........but seems to me if one DJ has the original acetate and another plays a carver then thats right out of order

Cheers Paul

[Dylan]

this could be the longest list of people i've ever seen reading a thread on here......

Some of the best nigths at the union where Rob was a resident it was realy special then.

I know very rare 45s have been given to early doors to to play before a major name has turned up with it to play. All good humour at the time but this occasion sounds different.

James I wouldn't worry about it there are far more important things to worry about than this. Its irrelevant in the scheme of things.

[Rugby Soul Club]

A seperate issue but I couldn't help thinking, if I was DJing and someone passed me a record to play that I didn't even know, I sure as hell wouldn't play it.

Surely you are supposed to like and actually know the records you play.

[Alan Pollard]

I can understand how James feels about this as the very same thing happened to me a few years ago when a bootleg of "True Fine Boy" by Saundra Edwards was played and I was next up to DJ and was really looking forward to airing my genuine Jobete Acetate which I had recently acquired, I must admit it totally pissed me off, I dont think like Ivor says that its one up manship to me it's just purely down to so called collectors playing bootlegs and even worst playing current big money tunes from recently released CD's or mp3's and it does happen as once when I was passing over to a very well known DJ / collector he said to me "Alan can you hang on a few minutes because if the CD player doesn't work you will have to continue DJ'ing until the next one arrives as I have no vinyl with me , just a couple of Goldmine CD's".

Regards

Alan

[mischief]

And I'd have thought this forum was exactly the sort of place to discuss Northern Soul DJing matters and ethics.

Ok what about the poor sod that was given a record to play and being told it was an original, then half way through some one comes up behind the decks and takes the arm of the record..

"I stopped the record and took it off"

I take it the room would have gone quite and the dancers would have all looked to see what was going on.

is that resonable behavior?

are we as dj's now allowed to interfear with each others sets?

seems that Rob Thomas may have been out of order but is James any better in the eyes of the other dj?

and if your going to answer yes its fine to take off a record if its a boot or a carving.. then you are going to have records stopping and starting all over the country..

[Ady Croasdell]

Ok what about the poor sod that was given a record to play and being told it was an original, then half way through some one comes up behind the decks and takes the arm of the record..

"I stopped the record and took it off"

I take it the room would have gone quite and the dancers would have all looked to see what was going on.

is that resonable behavior?

are we as dj's now allowed to interfear with each others sets?

seems that Rob Thomas may have been out of order but is James any better in the eyes of the other dj?

and if your going to answer yes its fine to take off a record if its a boot or a carving.. then you are going to have records stopping and starting all over the country..

If I was Djing I wouldn't play someone else's record for them and i'd not do it to another DJ.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

I've got a slightly vested interest here as I was the one who sold James the original. From what I've heard it does seem odd and extreme behaviour from Rob.

I disagree with Ivor about it being open season for unissued recordings, what's the difference between an original acetate and a very rare 45 where perhaps there's one or two known copies. If someone gets hold of a tape of either and makes up their own acetate it's the same type of act and if we're to have any rules on this scene i don't see why it's acceptable to play either.

However if the tape was given by the artist or label owner to promote their work then I would consider that acceptable so I suppose it's down to where did the tape come from and was it obtained honestly.

And I'd have thought this forum was exactly the sort of place to discuss Northern Soul DJing matters and ethics.

OUCH, IVE JUST JUST HAD ME LEGS SLAPPED,AND IN PUBLIC TOO

I THINK THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WITH AN UNISSUED ACETATE AND A VERY RARE 45 IS THAT THE 45,HOWEVER RARE IT MAY BE,AT LEAST HAS SOME CHANCE OF TURNING UP BUT THE UNISSUED THINGS DONT I SUPPOSE.THATS ALL I WAS GETTING AT ADY.........

I DO TAKE YOUR POINT THOUGH. I GUESS ITS ALL DOWN TO WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES PEOPLE CAME BY THE UNISSUED STUFF AND IF PEOPLE ARE PLANNING TO RELEASE IT OR NOT..........

ALSO,IF YOU GIVE SOMETHING TO A CERTAIN DJ BECAUSE YOU WANT TO CREATE A BUZZ THEN I GUESS YOU DONT WANT OTHER PEOPLE PLAYING IT AND KILLING IT BEFORE ITS HAD TIME TO GROW. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT TOO...

I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THOUGH THAT MOST DEEJAYS ON THIS SCENE HAVE USED ACETATE COPIES AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER LOOK AT ALL THE MOTOWN STUFF THATS TURNED UP OVER THE YEARS...

IT REALLY BOILS DOWN TO WHETHER THE PEOPLE INVOLVED ENTER INTO IT WITH THE RIGHT SPIRIT I SUPPOSE ....I THINK MOST OF US DO PLAY BY THE RULES ANYWAY..

I CERTAINLY DO EXCEPT FOR WHEN I PLAY MY BOOTLEGS

THATS A JOKE BY THE WAY.

LOVE, IVOR

[Simon M]

But Ivor you play LP tracks ?!! thats against the rules now ,if someone has the 7''

[Mark Bicknell]

Ok what about the poor sod that was given a record to play and being told it was an original, then half way through some one comes up behind the decks and takes the arm of the record..

"I stopped the record and took it off"

I take it the room would have gone quite and the dancers would have all looked to see what was going on.

is that resonable behavior?

are we as dj's now allowed to interfear with each others sets?

seems that Rob Thomas may have been out of order but is James any better in the eyes of the other dj?

and if your going to answer yes its fine to take off a record if its a boot or a carving.. then you are going to have records stopping and starting all over the country..

Nail on head here but not from the Bicknell camp and many other DJ's who do the best they can with authentic records, I really don't want to get into the originals V bootleg debate as it's rather boring but is it not simply a case of if you want to take the bigger stage and play Rare Soul records then at least use the real deal tools of the trade as it were.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Edited October 7, 2007 by Mark Bicknell

[Ady Croasdell]

OUCH, IVE JUST JUST HAD ME LEGS SLAPPED,AND IN PUBLIC TOO

I THINK THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WITH AN UNISSUED ACETATE AND A VERY RARE 45 IS THAT THE 45,HOWEVER RARE IT MAY BE,AT LEAST HAS SOME CHANCE OF TURNING UP BUT THE UNISSUED THINGS DONT I SUPPOSE.THATS ALL I WAS GETTING AT ADY.........

I DO TAKE YOUR POINT THOUGH. I GUESS ITS ALL DOWN TO WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES PEOPLE CAME BY THE UNISSUED STUFF AND IF PEOPLE ARE PLANNING TO RELEASE IT OR NOT..........

ALSO,IF YOU GIVE SOMETHING TO A CERTAIN DJ BECAUSE YOU WANT TO CREATE A BUZZ THEN I GUESS YOU DONT WANT OTHER PEOPLE PLAYING IT AND KILLING IT BEFORE ITS HAD TIME TO GROW. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT TOO...

I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THOUGH THAT MOST DEEJAYS ON THIS SCENE HAVE USED ACETATE COPIES AT SOME POINT OR ANOTHER LOOK AT ALL THE MOTOWN STUFF THATS TURNED UP OVER THE YEARS...

IT REALLY BOILS DOWN TO WHETHER THE PEOPLE INVOLVED ENTER INTO IT WITH THE RIGHT SPIRIT I SUPPOSE ....I THINK MOST OF US DO PLAY BY THE RULES ANYWAY..

I CERTAINLY DO EXCEPT FOR WHEN I PLAY MY BOOTLEGS

THATS A JOKE BY THE WAY.

LOVE, IVOR

Not being picky (honest) but there's just as much chance of an original acetate turning up of an incredibly rare 45 as there is of the vinyl. Collectors, DJs and dealers probably get most of their finds from producers, writers and artists these days so when you get down to ultra rarety acetates come into the picture more. The big problem is knowing the authenticity of the acetate. And i wouldn't go anywhere near your legs young man.

[Guest James Trouble]

SURELY HE HAS OTHER RECORDS WORTHY OF A SPIN SO PLAY THEM INSTEAD.

BEST, IVOR

But surely the DJ who was given the bootleg to play has other records, original records, that are worth playing, instead of playign a blank bootleg that he knows nothing about? While the DJ who has been putting effort into breaking the record, and on a rather beautiful original reference acetate, should be allowed to continue to break the record without someone cutting up bootlegs of it and tricking DJs to play it before the DJ who has been putting the work into breaking the record comes on?

Your logic is flawed there Ivor.

The only thing the DJ who played it did wrong is to be a little dim to be tricked into playing it. I appologised to him after and said it wasn't his fault and he didn't deserve me lashing out at him as it was Rob Thomas playing silly games. But anyone playing bootlegs should expect the record to be removed, ignorance is not an excuse, especially if someone in the room has the original. And anyone going around tricking DJs into playing bootlegs that other DJs are playing on original should expect to be called out for doing it.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Not being picky (honest) but there's just as much chance of an original acetate turning up of an incredibly rare 45 as there is of the vinyl. Collectors, DJs and dealers probably get most of their finds from producers, writers and artists these days so when you get down to ultra rarety acetates come into the picture more. The big problem is knowing the authenticity of the acetate. And i wouldn't go anywhere near your legs young man.

THATS A RELIEF.........

[Guest Paul]

Hello James,

No disrespect but I think you were wrong to stop another DJ playing the track. I also think Rob Thomas was wrong for objecting to you playing the track.

You're a DJ / collector, you didn't create the track and you don't own the track. Neither does Rob.

I accept there are moral issues here, such as respecting other DJs, but that's another matter. It sounds as if Rob was disrespectful to you but it also seems you were disrespectful to another DJ.

It doesn't matter how much you have paid for a record, all you own is that individual copy. You don't own any rights to the master or the song and therefore cannot object to anyone else playing it.

This is a classic example of ridiculous and extreme attitides which damage the soul scene.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

www.millbrand.com

[Tony Smith]

But anyone playing bootlegs should expect the record to be removed

Not sure about that James, but, spiking someones spot is out of order, no question; perhaps it's better not to be reliant on a small amount of records.

[Ted Massey]

This isnt the first time that a DJ has had a record removed from the decks half way thru think Ricey from shropshire had it done to him

[Guest James Trouble]

Not sure about that James, but, spiking someones spot is out of order, no question; perhaps it's better not to be reliant on a small amount of records.

I'm not mate and that's not the point. That's totally irrelevent and not the case anyway. So next 100 club it's ok for Mick Smith to play Jean Carter off a bootleg, just because Butch should have more records to play?

Come on Tony, I know you don't believe that.

It's hard to break records on the northern scene, it takes time and alot of effort. And if the scene is relying on warm up DJs who play whatever tunes they are given from whatever punters walk through the door, on bootlegs, for it's new, exciting and fresh tunes, instead of enthusuastic and passionate DJs who play the original record in the main spot then it's game over for the northern scene, as simple as that...

[Tony Smith]

This isnt the first time that a DJ has had a record removed from the decks half way thru think Ricey from shropshire had it done to him

Butch picked up and threw a pressing of Walter & Admerations across the stage at Congleton or somewhere like that, thus starting a craze

[Guest Paul]

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT MOST,IF NOT ALL OF THE SPATS ON THE SCENE ARE BETWEEN PEOPLE WANTING TO "OWN" THE MUSIC OR THE SCENE ITSELF...

Well said, Ivor.

It's also a shame that DJing seems to have become a rich man's game and collecting music is in danger of being just an "investment opportunity" for the rich.

With money you can buy expensive records but you can't buy taste, knowledge, understanding, respect or peace of mind.

Best regards,

Paul Mooney

[Guest Ivor Jones]

But surely the DJ who was given the bootleg to play has other records, original records, that are worth playing, instead of playign a blank bootleg that he knows nothing about? While the DJ who has been putting effort into breaking the record, and on a rather beautiful original reference acetate, should be allowed to continue to break the record without someone cutting up bootlegs of it and tricking DJs to play it before the DJ who has been putting the work into breaking the record comes on?

Your logic is flawed there Ivor.

The only thing the DJ who played it did wrong is to be a little dim to be tricked into playing it. I appologised to him after and said it wasn't his fault and he didn't deserve me lashing out at him as it was Rob Thomas playing silly games. But anyone playing bootlegs should expect the record to be removed, ignorance is not an excuse, especially if someone in the room has the original. And anyone going around tricking DJs into playing bootlegs that other DJs are playing on original should expect to be called out for doing it.

HELLO AGAIN JAMES, HOPE YOUR KEEPING WELL AND ALL THAT. WE`LL JUST HAVE TO DISAGREE ON THIS MATE. I HAVE HAD SIMILAR THINGS DONE TO ME IN THE PAST WHEN IVE BEEN PLAYING OUT.NOT WITH UNNISSUED ACETATES THOUGH.... ALL IM SAYING IS NONE OF US HAS AN EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO CERTAIN TRACKS....THE MUSIC IS OUT THERE FOR ALL TO ENJOY. WHEN YOU BUY A RARE EXPENSIVE RECORD YOU ARE GAMBLING ON THE FACT THAT A BOX LOAD OF THEM ISNT GOING TO SHOW UP.

DANNY MOORE ANYONE..........!

BUT I DO APPRECIATE YOUR POSITION [AND ADY`S FOR THAT MATTER]

YOU JUST HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT IM AFRAID.....

IN FACT, PROBABLY TAKE IT AS A COMPLIMENT I RECKON.....YOU MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT.

ITS JUST THAT DEEJAYING ETIQUETTE PREVENTS MOST OF US FROM PULLING STUNTS LIKE THAT,ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU KNOW SOMEONE IS USING A CERTAIN TRACK. ... THAT I CERTAINLY DO AGREE ON.........

THE POINT IS IF PEOPLE CONSTANTLY USE AND PLAY BOOTLEGS THEN THEY`RE NOT GONNA BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY ANYWAY ARE THEY.....?

THATS THE WAY THE SCENE WORKS ISNT IT.........

RIGHT IM GOING BACK IN MY BUNKER TO PLAY MY BOOTLEGS NOW IVE UPSET EVERYONE

CHIN UP JAMES........

BEST, IVOR

[Guest Paul]

"But anyone playing bootlegs should expect the record to be removed"

Hello again, James.

If I thought for one moment you were morally objecting to bootlegs I would admire such a noble and brave stand but I suspect you would only object to someone playing a bootleg of one of your expensive records.

Are you really concerned about the rights of artists, producers, writers and publishers etc? Or are you concerned about what you perceive to be your rights?

There's a very big difference.

Paul Mooney

[Guest James Trouble]

Butch picked up and threw a pressing of Walter & Admerations across the stage at Congleton or somewhere like that, thus starting a craze

Maybe at next Cleethorpes, instead of the DJ dance competition there should a DJ bootleg slinging contest

[Guest James Trouble]

"But anyone playing bootlegs should expect the record to be removed"

Hello again, James.

If I thought for one moment you were morally objecting to bootlegs I would admire such a noble and brave stand but I suspect you would only object to someone playing a bootleg of one of your expensive records.

Are you really concerned about the rights of artists, producers, writers and publishers etc? Or are you concerned about what you perceive to be your rights?

There's a very big difference.

Paul Mooney

No, see my comments on the Different Kettle Of Fish thread in look backs. I felt dissappointed to have travelled all the way up from Essex to have had a bootleg of Butch's Jean Carter C/U played, dispite the rest of the music being decent and plenty of good records being played. There's no real need for it, especially when the rest of the records the DJ was playing were decent and interesting.

I don't think the rights of the artists, producers, writers etc are really that relevent here. It's the foundations of what make the northern scene so special that are at stake here. The life blood of Northern IMO is people travelling to hear exciting records they can't dance to anywhere else. Take that away and it's just a retro fancy dress pop music disco for local devorced folk looking to shag other local devorced people and chat about how great the Casino was the 3 times they went there when they were 19 and have a dance to Frankie Beverly the four times it gets played that night and think they are cool and 'upfront' because they know Hamilton Movement and clap at the forward thinking DJ for playing it

[Phild]

I feel like I've gone through a 30 year timewarp. But I'm still a fat get and my hair's not grown back.

This is a debate (originals / bootlegs) that will rage as long as people remember what a record is.

I don't know either of the the people involved but it does sound like someone's trying to wind someone up big time.

Phil

[Guest topcatnumpty1]

Hear,hear Phil-----this certainly rings some bells from the past--you,re right.

Tony Coleby.

[Simon M]

I admire your enthusiasm James , but you've found the Northern scene in the wrong decade ..

atb

Simon