Why?

[Guest Tommy]

Why do so many ABC STOCK COPIES (ISSUES) have gold 'splatters' on the labels? I've noticed it mostly with 'Eddie Holmans - I surrender', but so many other things on the label i've seen / had have had the same problem (see the two attached images for examples).

Why is this?

Leaky printer?

It may sound like a weird question, but i find it interesting. There must be a story behind this...

Edited September 4, 2007 by Tommy

[Guest]

I always thought it was another way of identifying remaindered stock as opposed to the more common drill hole.

Derek

[Baz Atkinson]

always wondered about that just got the persians too much pride on a white demo and even that has the splatter,got loads of issues marvellos etc with the same.

BAZ A

[Dave Moore]

Tommy,

I'm not 100% sure of this...but ...I think as Derek has alluded to it's to identify the returned credited stock. Basically when stock was returned to distributors, shops were given a credit for them. This returned credit stock needed to be identified so it couldn't be put through the sytstem again. Sometimes it was BB hole, or in this case it 's the gold splash of paint. This is what I've alwsys been led to believe.

Here's another one for you ....why do so many Miracle/UA/ records (Stock issues only) have the initials DR painted on them? Anyone? Take the Jimmy Ruffin - Don't Feel Sorry For Me - Miracle, I've had a bout a dozen , all from different sources, but all bearing the DR mark? Same theory perhaps?

Edited September 4, 2007 by Dave Moore

[Pete S]

I always thought it was another way of identifying remaindered stock as opposed to the more common drill hole.

Derek

You are correct Derek.

[Guest]

You are correct Derek.

Well i had to be right about something eventually

Derek

[Guest Bogue]

Whilst on about odd marks etc on lables, what is the reason for that almost glittery efflorescence that appears to be on the old Okeh lables ? I mean the purple & gold ones before the addition of the white Okeh signature.

Got a few that have it, all bought at different times & from different sellers, anyone else noticed it ?

Edited September 4, 2007 by Bogue

[Guest Tommy]

Thanks Derek & Dave. I'm thinking you must be right, never thought it would be that. I suppose theres no Gold Print on ABC records for it to be a 'leak', so your theories seem to be correct.

[Simon T]

Here's another one for you ....why do so many Miracle/UA/ records (Stock issues only) have the initials DR painted on them? Anyone? Take the Jimmy Ruffin - Don't Feel Sorry For Me - Miracle, I've had a bout a dozen , all from different sources, but all bearing the DR mark? Same theory perhaps?

My issue has it too, but not my demos; I've seen it on several issues for sale on ebay so perhaps it is something to do with 'returns' as the demos where never official for sale?

[Guest Tommy]

Whilst on about odd marks etc on lables, what is the reason for that almost glittery evervescence that appears to be on the old Okeh lables ? I mean the purple & gold ones before the addition of the white Okeh signature.

Got a few that have it, all bought at different times & from different sellers, anyone else noticed it ?

I've noticed this too Bogue, and your right, it seems to just happen to the earlier Gold print Okeh's. I did wonder if it was Mold? However, it's almost crystallized, so did wonder if it was moisture getting to the glue under the label?

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Guest Tommy]

Here's another one for you ....why do so many Miracle/UA/ records (Stock issues only) have the initials DR painted on them? Anyone? Take the Jimmy Ruffin - Don't Feel Sorry For Me - Miracle, I've had a bout a dozen , all from different sources, but all bearing the DR mark? Same theory perhaps?

This i've not noticed this before, but your right. Couple on popsike with the DR, plus the one Simon just posted...

https://www.popsike.com/php/detaildata.php?itemnr=4748744103

https://www.popsike.com/php/detaildata.php?itemnr=4011953346

Edited September 4, 2007 by Tommy

[Guest Bogue]

I've noticed this too Bogue, and your right, it seems to just happen to the earlier Gold print Okeh's. I did wonder if it was Mold? However, it's almost crystallized, so did wonder if it was moisture getting to the glue under the label?

Anyone else have any ideas?

Got my spelling wrong again, efflorescence is the word i meant, but you knew what i meant Tommy

Certainly a reaction of some sort to the glue or paper, just strange it only seems to be those old Okeh's.

That is unless anyone has seen it on any others ? Can't say i have.

[Guest]

I've had and seen a few copies of George Byrd "I'm Available" on TRC with the gold paint...

[Sean Hampsey]

I've had and seen a few copies of George Byrd "I'm Available" on TRC with the gold paint...

Yes, Tangerine were distributed by ABC and they were therefore subject to the same 'cut out' identification method.

You'll find the 'Gold Blob' on Tangerine / TRC, Dunhill, Probe, Dot 45's and the occasional 20th Century label too! (all associated with ABC).

Sean

[Guest]

I always thought it was another way of identifying remaindered stock as opposed to the more common drill hole.

Derek

this is the right answer? its the stock copys that never sold and were returned by the vendors!

not all shops had the drilling machine

Edited September 5, 2007 by mossy

[Guest]

this is the right answer? its the stock copys that never sold and were returned by the vendors!

not all shops had the drilling machine

Shops never "drilled" anything.

The cut-out system was brought in, to prevent "shops" fraudulently returning goods for full credit, they had previously bought cheaply from a "different" source.

Before the cut out idea came into being, returns were sold in bulk to nationwide stores, or companies who packed them 10 for a $1 etc. Shop owners quickly caught on they could buy cheap 45s and then return them full credit to the Record Companies. So the companies started to "Drill hole" returns so they could recognise any returning goods that were not authentic full price original purchases.

ABC Paramount used "gold paint" as there i.d. system.

I once found an 100 count box of Herbert Hunter's that had been drilled straight through the middle of the vinyl playing surface. Operators would have a long drill, sometimes not even open 100 count boxes and drill the whole length of the box. That is why you sometimes have a record with a messy hardened "bleed" of vinyl built up the other side of the drill hole. It's because the drill has gone through numerous 45s in one go.

I wonder how many great records were ruined by the drill operator not concentrating. 8 hours of doing that job, it would be hard to care whether it was done correctly. WE have all witnessed 1000's of drill holes in the deadwax of collectable 45s.

Perhaps someone was involved in the 60s in cut-out process and can descibe it better than I.

John

[Guest miff]

Shops never "drilled" anything.

The cut-out system was brought in, to prevent "shops" fraudulently returning goods for full credit, they had previously bought cheaply from a "different" source.

Before the cut out idea came into being, returns were sold in bulk to nationwide stores, or companies who packed them 10 for a $1 etc. Shop owners quickly caught on they could buy cheap 45s and then return them full credit to the Record Companies. So the companies started to "Drill hole" returns so they could recognise any returning goods that were not authentic full price original purchases.

ABC Paramount used "gold paint" as there i.d. system.

I once found an 100 count box of Herbert Hunter's that had been drilled straight through the middle of the vinyl playing surface. Operators would have a long drill, sometimes not even open 100 count boxes and drill the whole length of the box. That is why you sometimes have a record with a messy hardened "bleed" of vinyl built up the other side of the drill hole. It's because the drill has gone through numerous 45s in one go.

I wonder how many great records were ruined by the drill operator not concentrating. 8 hours of doing that job, it would be hard to care whether it was done correctly. WE have all witnessed 1000's of drill holes in the deadwax of collectable 45s.

Perhaps someone was involved in the 60s in cut-out process and can descibe it better than I.

John

Not wanting to question anyones far supererour knowledge but I was told that they were shot through with a Ball Berring gun, hence the desciption BB hole

[Pete S]

Not wanting to question anyones far supererour knowledge but I was told that they were shot through with a Ball Berring gun, hence the desciption BB hole

I think it is a drill that was used (makes sense, otherwise it'd be like clay pigeon shooting - next record, PULL!) but they are called BB holes because they are the same size as a BB hole.

[Guest Stuart T]

The cut-out system was brought in, to prevent "shops" fraudulently returning goods for full credit, they had previously bought cheaply from a "different" source.

Think there was a book a few years ago that described how the mafia attempted to infiltrate MCA in order to get control of their cut out operation (and recycle the same stock as returns without cutting them out). May have been cut out CDs by then (I think they just run a circular saw down the spine of the disc cases).

For those who care about artists royalties and bootlegs I believe that cut outs are sold at a massive discount and no royalties are paid to artists on them when they are then sold on. So all those ABC discs with gold paint on the label are almost as bad as a bootleg copy

[Guest Bogue]

Think there was a book a few years ago that described how the mafia attempted to infiltrate MCA in order to get control of their cut out operation (and recycle the same stock as returns without cutting them out). May have been cut out CDs by then (I think they just run a circular saw down the spine of the disc cases).

For those who care about artists royalties and bootlegs I believe that cut outs are sold at a massive discount and no royalties are paid to artists on them when they are then sold on. So all those ABC discs with gold paint on the label are almost as bad as a bootleg copy

That's it ! the soul police will be checking if DJ's are playing bb hole or gold paint discs now ! You have just caused mayhem in an already manic scene now Stuart.

[mischief]

[Benelew]

Fascinating topic guys, I'm enjoying the education. Some interesting stuff about bb holes, shop scams and artist royalties. One thing springs to mind; of all the 1000s of rare soul 45s that are out there and pass through our hands, what percentage of them were actually purchased at a traditional point of sale? Anyone hazard a guess?

Continued thanks for filling my lunch hour.

Jorge

[Codfromderby]

very interesting subject, those from an engineering background may want to consider what kind of drill was used to make the "BB" holes in 45,s why havent any 45,s ive seen or indeed bought over the years contained drill swarf in the paper covers or stuck to the 45, in fact i might try and drill a 6mm hole in a vinyl 45 and a styrene 45 and see what happens, i reckon the record would crack with vinyl, and with styrene the 6mm hole would shatter the area around the hole, to make the bb holes in 45,s as we know would take a very high speed sharp drill and a carefull operator......

also why are lots of white rca demos water damaged ?

[Hold Tight]

Got my spelling wrong again, efflorescence is the word i meant, but you knew what i meant Tommy

Certainly a reaction of some sort to the glue or paper, just strange it only seems to be those old Okeh's.

That is unless anyone has seen it on any others ? Can't say i have.

seen it on various labels form 60's to laate 70's early 80's. Not sure why its there though? Looks similar to fingerprint powder to me.

[Guest Bearsy]

seen it on various labels form 60's to laate 70's early 80's. Not sure why its there though? Looks similar to fingerprint powder to me.

gold finger now he was a naughty boy Mark

If you were to securely fsaten carefully of course say a 100 records and drill through i would imagine only the bottom vynil would suffer and that was either still sold on or thrown away, its a bit like a bullet going into something, it enters very neatly and exits in a bloody mess, i dont think they were ever drilled individually it would of took forever, so the painting would probably of been before the drilling as they would of wanted a better way of doing it and a lot quicker, well thats my thoughts anyway

[Guest Bogue]

very interesting subject, those from an engineering background may want to consider what kind of drill was used to make the "BB" holes in 45,s why havent any 45,s ive seen or indeed bought over the years contained drill swarf in the paper covers or stuck to the 45, in fact i might try and drill a 6mm hole in a vinyl 45 and a styrene 45 and see what happens, i reckon the record would crack with vinyl, and with styrene the 6mm hole would shatter the area around the hole, to make the bb holes in 45,s as we know would take a very high speed sharp drill and a carefull operator......

also why are lots of white rca demos water damaged ?

Always wondered if the drill used was heated or if in fact it was done with some sort of hot needle ? I say this because the build up around the hole often appears to look like melted vinyl.

I know JM talked about this being caused by drilling in bulk but i'm sure i have had quite a few where the build up is on both sides of the hole.

[Prophonics 2029]

I've noticed this too Bogue, and your right, it seems to just happen to the earlier Gold print Okeh's. I did wonder if it was Mold? However, it's almost crystallized, so did wonder if it was moisture getting to the glue under the label?

Anyone else have any ideas?

I think its just sparkle to make the record look better than the rest in the shop.

I will try and get a close up picture.

Dave Love Colaied Baby demo

Major Lance Rytham issue

Eloise Laws Love Factory demo

all sparkle.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Prophonics 2026

[Prophonics 2029]

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...mp;#entry570046

I stared a thread the other day about weird sounds on records.

Luckt To Be Loved Emanuel Lasky has a strange thing just before the instrumental break, someone say WORDS?

[Guest]

Not wanting to question anyones far supererour knowledge but I was told that they were shot through with a Ball Berring gun, hence the desciption BB hole

Now that's funny.. Besides the fact it would smash the record to bits, the thought of someone sitting there with a gun!! Now that's a job everyone would like. No it was the boring drill, I'm afraid

Friction caused the vinyl bleed and yes you do get it both sides, how much bleed depends where in the 100 count box your 45 was and how long the drill was left running.

[Guest]

very interesting subject, those from an engineering background may want to consider what kind of drill was used to make the "BB" holes in 45,s why havent any 45,s ive seen or indeed bought over the years contained drill swarf in the paper covers or stuck to the 45, in fact i might try and drill a 6mm hole in a vinyl 45 and a styrene 45 and see what happens, i reckon the record would crack with vinyl, and with styrene the 6mm hole would shatter the area around the hole, to make the bb holes in 45,s as we know would take a very high speed sharp drill and a carefull operator......

also why are lots of white rca demos water damaged ?

I've seen unopened 100 count boxes with a drill hole through the box and the records, and as i've mentioned the operators were not always careful.

RCA water damaged 45s?? You find every label with water damaged idividuals if it's been in contact with water, where it's been stored (did the roof leak?).

RCA from my own experience is one of the least affected labels, with La Beat being the most common water damaged label, cause Lou Beaty's stock got wet.

Every 45 goes on it's own unique journey and meets up with all sorts of hazards. Children, drunks, storms, hurricanes, Sun, damp cellars, extremely temperature change, careless owners, coffee spills, drops, trod on, wrote on, thrown, sat on.. maybe the life of a Soul 45 would make a good movie.

Edited September 6, 2007 by john manship

[Iancsloft]

Every 45 goes on it's own unique journey and meets up with all sorts of hazards. Children, drunks, storms, hurricanes, Sun, damp cellars, extremely temperature change, careless owners, coffee spills, drops, trod on, wrote on, thrown, sat on.. maybe the life of a Soul 45 would make a good movie.

==========================================================================

Blimey John you summed up a normal Fri/ Sat nite for a 45 up here int grimm north

[Guest]

==========================================================================

Blimey John you summed up a normal Fri/ Sat nite for a 45 up here int grimm north

Going of the subject slightly, I know it's "sad" I often find myself looking at vinyl thinking I bet you could tell a story or two.

We recently acquired an Earl Van Dyke LP "That Motown Sound" on UK Tamla Motown where the first owner, obviously an enthusiastics "Soul Boy" in his teens, doodled all the "Niter Club" names and his thoughts at the time (1966/67) on the reverse cover, of his possibly new LP. Genuine graffitti all over the back cover quoting Twisted Wheel etc etc. I was fascinated by it.. and found myself wondering what's he doing now?

Edited September 6, 2007 by john manship

[Trev Thomas]

there used to be a second hand record shop in southampton called odds & ends, i'll always remember the owner telling me that the holes in imports was the result of the records being used at rifle ranges at us fairgrounds, eg, if you shot the record that was your prize

[Soul Shrews]

seen it on various labels form 60's to laate 70's early 80's. Not sure why its there though? Looks similar to fingerprint powder to me.

Noticed this effect on a few Philly Int / TSOP 45s......................just thought it was "Philly magic dust"

Cheers Paul

PS Don't have it on my Eloise Laws promo tho Prophonics

Edited September 6, 2007 by soul shrews

[Prophonics 2029]

I use to go to a little record shop in Blackpool called Symphonia, a brother and sister team called Sandy Mountain & Freda Mountain ran it they had a large selection of records US 12 singles was a passion of his, a cardboard box of reissues to flick through.

I never got to go into the cellar but I remember going in and asking Sandy that I have just heard a record at Wigan by Terry Callier called Look At Me Now, Sandy said hang on a sec I will have a look, 5 mins later he came up with a copy, UK 45 were .35P and US were £1.20.

Sandy I am sure help Richard Serling with the compilation LP Sold on Soul Capitol.

Jpeg is of Dave Love gold flecks in the paper give it a sparkle.

Edited September 6, 2007 by Prophonics 2026

[Prophonics 2029]

Noticed this effect on a few Philly Int / TSOP 45s......................just thought it was "Philly magic dust"

Cheers Paul

PS Don't have it on my Eloise Laws promo tho Prophonics

A lamp is good or a spot light and tilt it from side to side its there.

You see in between the blue print tiny flecks of white - silver

Surface of a Okeh issue looks like a jewel encrusted gown

Edited September 6, 2007 by Prophonics 2026

[Guest Netspeaky]

Going of the subject slightly, I know it's "sad" I often find myself looking at vinyl thinking I bet you could tell a story or two.

We recently acquired an Earl Van Dyke LP "That Motown Sound" on UK Tamla Motown where the first owner, obviously an enthusiastics "Soul Boy" in his teens, doodled all the "Niter Club" names and his thoughts at the time (1966/67) on the reverse cover, of his possibly new LP. Genuine graffitti all over the back cover quoting Twisted Wheel etc etc. I was fascinated by it.. and found myself wondering what's he doing now?

John, I get similar feeling when you get some semi rare item from the states and it has a sticker with original owners name and address on, I often wonder what the story was in them buying that particular 45, local hit, they knew the artist, heard it on the juke box, radio, record store, etc, if you could just speak to them it would be fascinating to know.

[Guest Bogue]

John, I get similar feeling when you get some semi rare item from the states and it has a sticker with original owners name and address on, I often wonder what the story was in them buying that particular 45, local hit, they knew the artist, heard it on the juke box, radio, record store, etc, if you could just speak to them it would be fascinating to know.

Same here, i know some people have to have records in nigh on mint condition but writing on lables has never bothered me, as you & JM have said, i think it adds to the experience.

Got some with little dedications & love notes on them, have often sat there whilst the record is playing & wondered how their lives panned out etc.

Another element i like is the demo's & radio station copies where playing instructions or thanks for plays etc are still written on. Was sat there thinking who & why etc only last night when i was sorting some records. The record in question was a white demo/radio copy of the 'Marvelettes - Please Mister Postman' & there was various things written in pencil including "Don't Play After 3" . 3 in the morning ? afternoon ? why ?

[Codfromderby]

another example of johns record life stories, a mate of mine bought a copy of do the pearl girl from a dealer in the states, when it arrived it was one of the white boot copies done in the uk, how did that get there ?

and how come i got all the water damaged rca demos, at one time i had five all bought from different places at different times

[Jerry Hipkiss]

and how come i got all the water damaged rca demos

Not quite, I've got The Cavaliers "I really love you" with heavy water damage - did that slip past you

[Benelew]

Same here, i know some people have to have records in nigh on mint condition but writing on lables has never bothered me, as you & JM have said, i think it adds to the experience.

Got some with little dedications & love notes on them, have often sat there whilst the record is playing & wondered how their lives panned out etc.

Another element i like is the demo's & radio station copies where playing instructions or thanks for plays etc are still written on. Was sat there thinking who & why etc only last night when i was sorting some records. The record in question was a white demo/radio copy of the 'Marvelettes - Please Mister Postman' & there was various things written in pencil including "Don't Play After 3" . 3 in the morning ? afternoon ? why ?

Yeah, I've got a few with notes and a Christian name same as the artists - maybe the artist giving them away to mates/girlfriends? On a similar theme, not a rare soul 45 but I've got a New Zealand Jay & Americans "Living..." with New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation sticker complete with record library index card and stamps showing each time it was taken out of the library in 1967! Anyone got any other record library anecdotes?

[Guest brianhorton]

Tommy,

I'm not 100% sure of this...but ...I think as Derek has alluded to it's to identify the returned credited stock. Basically when stock was returned to distributors, shops were given a credit for them. This returned credit stock needed to be identified so it couldn't be put through the sytstem again. Sometimes it was BB hole, or in this case it 's the gold splash of paint. This is what I've alwsys been led to believe.

Here's another one for you ....why do so many Miracle/UA/ records (Stock issues only) have the initials DR painted on them? Anyone? Take the Jimmy Ruffin - Don't Feel Sorry For Me - Miracle, I've had a bout a dozen , all from different sources, but all bearing the DR mark? Same theory perhaps?

[Guest martyn]

I've seen unopened 100 count boxes with a drill hole through the box and the records, and as i've mentioned the operators were not always careful.

RCA water damaged 45s?? You find every label with water damaged idividuals if it's been in contact with water, where it's been stored (did the roof leak?).

RCA from my own experience is one of the least affected labels, with La Beat being the most common water damaged label, cause Lou Beaty's stock got wet.

Every 45 goes on it's own unique journey and meets up with all sorts of hazards. Children, drunks, storms, hurricanes, Sun, damp cellars, extremely temperature change, careless owners, coffee spills, drops, trod on, wrote on, thrown, sat on.. maybe the life of a Soul 45 would make a good movie.

And even urinated on

Don't ask,but if anyone out there owns a white demo of either Magic Night or Center City bought at Yate circa 1979 with 'water stains',,,,,,,sorry it was an accident.

[Guest]

another example of johns record life stories, a mate of mine bought a copy of do the pearl girl from a dealer in the states, when it arrived it was one of the white boot copies done in the uk, how did that get there ?

and how come i got all the water damaged rca demos, at one time i had five all bought from different places at different times

Probberly cause the words round that you buy substandard water damaged stock,i aint got any

[Jerry Hipkiss]

On a similar theme, not a rare soul 45 but I've got a New Zealand Jay & Americans "Living..." with New Zealand Broadcasting Corporation sticker complete with record library index card and stamps showing each time it was taken out of the library in 1967! Anyone got any other record library anecdotes?

Well, my US demo of Bill Harris "Am I cold am I hot" has the library stamp from the Voice of Peace pirate ship (anchored off the Middle East in the '70's) - came from a fellow radio presenter who worked on the ship for a while.

I'd love to hear some of the stories of things got from the BBC record library - is my memory failing me or did Ady C gain access some years back?

[Benelew]

Well, my US demo of Bill Harris "Am I cold am I hot" has the library stamp from the Voice of Peace pirate ship (anchored off the Middle East in the '70's) - came from a fellow radio presenter who worked on the ship for a while.

I'd love to hear some of the stories of things got from the BBC record library - is my memory failing me or did Ady C gain access some years back?

I thought that Reckless Records in Berwick Street got most of them when the BBC auctioned off all their "Dup" copies a few years ago.

Jorge

[Codfromderby]

Probberly cause the words round that you buy substandard water damaged stock,i aint got any

just bought a job lot of water damaged swimming trunks, bugger all wrong with them, youd never notice