Overkill A Problem ?

[Bazza]

I dont think overkill is the problem there are loads of clubs who regularly attract big crowds,surely the problem is that the clubs who cant attract customers just are,nt gettin it right.We are in the worst part of the country for clashing venues there are probably 20 venues on in this area next sat night and we will still be full,take in to account that our regulars are from every part of the uk and that makes it worse but we will still be full.Surely people speak with there feet and the niter scene has changed dramaticaly in the last 3 years the fact is to attract good crowds you have to work hard some dont work that hard.I do belive that the explosion of small soul clubs all over the place has affected some niters but the only way to counter that is make your niter better.Trust you not to mince your words james but there is an example of a young guy offering a nite that has it all which is why it will be succesful .Running these venues is,nt just about saying the right things to the right people or being every bodys mate and as someone has already said the cream will always rise.

Now this post I do agree with....absolutley spot on Andy

Bazza

[NiteOwl]

Can Some one explain to me why ...If you want to play upfront tunes ,the Venue has to be an " upfront " only do' why Cant you mix em in at a Normal Do'..I honestly Dont understand.

why is there this need to split the genre's..???????....not genre's styles may be a better word....you know what I mean

Bazza

Not normally one to get dragged into debates on SS in any depth, but I am compelled to put my tuppence' worth in sorry....

Having been down the road of both "Local Promotor/DJ" and "Punter" - in the 70's and again during the last 7-8 years I have experienced the challenges from both sides....

(7-8 years ago) There were only a few venues playing the progressive type of music that appealed to me then as a punter, and those that were, were generally an hour or two's drive away.

Typically our passion translated itself into deciding to try and do our own thing locally. Not with a view to compete, but just to make that flavour more accessible for local soulies.

The Challenges quickly arose: - Can we stick to lesser known stuff - cope with less than brilliant turn-outs, and several moaning punters asking for "Oldies"

We went for it....

It started ok - local curiosity arose and travellers called in - it was a pleaseant start.

But then the difficulties crept in..

Intial curiosity waned, locals wanted more "oldies", travellers stopped calling, numbers dwindled..

The Question: - Do we stick it out and hope for better uptake? - Ask the punters what they want?

Now to begin with I was tempted to stick it out - being a firm believer in trying to move things forward, as well as accommodating local tastes I believed that we could do both. How niaive was that?

As they say in Marketing if you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question...

The Outcome: The majority of punters decided on the "old familiar" tunes and as it was their only night out maybe once every month that was fine by them.

Unfortunately as we had already asked - we had to deliver.... (the Oldies formula delivered the numbers and the majority appeal).

The result!! - For a while numbers grew again, punters happy - flavour became more "school disco" the landlord was happy at least.

and sadly the "regular soulies" who were prepared to travel anyway - abandoned the local venue in search of more progressive venues....

This I am sure is a very familiar story to many of you who are involved in organising local events. And whilst no doubt we all have the best intentions at heart it seems that we are trying to do something "on the doorstep" to the overall detriment of the scene as a whole.

Why you may ask?? - well I feel that there is a Hardcore group of regular soulies (many of whom are on here) who are out almost every weekend or as near as. and there are those that (through circumstances or choice) who dont go out as often or do not like to travel. Quite different target groups.

Whatever group you, me or anyone else fits into we must remember that the scene is finite. Northern Soul may appear "massive" again, but in all honesty it has never been of large enough scale to support the number of venues that are currently running.

Like anything else in life if you present too many choices people find it harder to choose.

I for one still go out regularly, I know what Stoke has to offer, I know what Kings Hall Blackburn has to offer and neither are for me.

I know what I like and frequently like to try new venues, however I am finding it harder and harder to choose which venue to go to on any given weekend (with a few exceptions like Burnley and DDA Lowton for instance). What makes it more difficult to choose is not just the number of venues both near and far, but the lack of clarity on music policy. Whilst I will try and remain open minded with any new venue and give it a fair go, it seems that many are bending to the numbers game and going down the route of trying to please the masses. This leaves me dissatisfied musically and less likely to return, and I am convinced that this lack of contrast between venues, with very few standing out, is what is diluting the support.

I am sure that we all agree that it is easy to moan and groan about the scene in one way or another. What would be more useful is some constuctive support and ideas to help bond it together more closely. It may seem that I am having a go about too many venues, but just imagine how sad we would be without any! - I admire anyone who tries to share their passion and taste and love for the music with others, and who wants to make a venue work.

All I would ask is that the would be promotor think very carefully about who the his/her target audience will be.....

I often hear comments from local soul night promotors, that are not clear on music policy, that they have fickle, casual soul types who will boost the numbers when it suits them, and find it hard to pull in travelling soulies...

I am tepted to say - don't do it then, or better still, stand out - be different - and be prepared for a hard slog to keep it going...

Whatever your choice - All I would ask is that whatever kind of venue you are running, please be as clear as you possibly can about your music policy, even to the point of posting playlists if you have to. This way the choices of venue can be better narrowed down for the target punters.

Remember if you just want fast food, fish and chips or McD's may be ok - but if you want Cantonese or Italian, you need to know who serves it... same applies to NS

Maybe a full blown survey of what makes the ideal venue is called for?.... a list of locations, top 10 DJ's, 20 sounds you would like to hear, type of dance floor, bar opening hours, type of beers served, dress code..... etc etc... a full blown menu.....

Someone who does the National Northern Soul survey may just get it all sorted...

I know..... its far more than "tuppence worth" - sorry

[KevH]

This is one of the problems IMHO.

Good DJ's should be paid a good rate, and if they weren't so desperate to feed their ego's they wouldn't get behind the decks without that fair rate.

If you can't justify paying them accordingly, why put the event on?

You just don't get it do you?.Minimum wage for dj's???Good rate of pay?Desperate to feed their ego's????,

Some do it for nothing cos they love the music.

Some venues don't generate enough on the door to pay big money out.

No-one would put on an event without considering the dj's costs.

Please give us the benefit of your wisdom with the rates structure for all the dj's on the scene.

Dj's playing for nothing is one of the problems????.Scuse me while i hold my aching sides.

[Bazza]

The Challenges quickly arose: - Can we stick to lesser known stuff - cope with less than brilliant turn-outs, and several moaning punters asking for "Oldies"

We went for it....

Very nice post..enjoyed reading it...but I still dont understand why you cant play some classics and big money tunes along side the lesser or unknown stuff

that would for me be ideal

Bazza

[Guest dundeedavie]

Some venues don't generate enough on the door to pay big money out.

that's no excuse , if you book someone you pay them regardless how many come thru the door .

i've had some of the biggest R&B Dj's on the planet come and dj at basics and the majority didn't want paying BUT they got paid regardless of how many came in and they got paid what was agreed when they were booked .

[Guest Baz]

I also think People who promote should be active people on the scene out there getting a feel for the scene from lots of diffenrt areas, far to many promoters just go to their do or a select few of their 'mates' dos for a DJ spot rub my back and i'll rub yours type thing

[Guest]

that's no excuse , if you book someone you pay them regardless how many come thru the door .

i've had some of the biggest R&B Dj's on the planet come and dj at basics and the majority didn't want paying BUT they got paid regardless of how many came in and they got paid what was agreed when they were booked .

That's the way it SHOULD work, it certainly does on most other club scenes.

The Soul scene that's another story. I'm sure most of the dj's on here have been paid less than was agreed more than once.

Derek

[Dave]

You just don't get it do you?.Minimum wage for dj's???Good rate of pay?Desperate to feed their ego's????,

Some do it for nothing cos they love the music.

Some venues don't generate enough on the door to pay big money out.

No-one would put on an event without considering the dj's costs.

Please give us the benefit of your wisdom with the rates structure for all the dj's on the scene.

Dj's playing for nothing is one of the problems????.Scuse me while i hold my aching sides.

You seem to like answering posts I've directed to other people? And no, it's you that just don't get it.

"Some do it for nothing because they love the music"? Maybe so, but it doesn't make them good DJs.

Many do it for nothing because they are desperate to DJ.. what's that if it's not ego?

Likewise, many events have started up in the last two years for the same reason, and it doesn't make them good events.

I know "some venues don't generate enough on the door to pay big money out", and they either have their mates DJing for nothing or petrol money. Then reciprocate with those mates. Those events are mostly unexciting and just serve to take 30 or so people away from good events. If those collectors weren't so keen to Dj and instead supported the good events, along with their 30 punters, the scene would be more healthy, therefore they are one of the problems in doing what they are doing.

Basically I'm agreeing with what Andy, James and Tony have said.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say now, or do you want a diagram?

Edited September 6, 2007 by Dave

[Guest Bearsy]

These people don't exist though, do they?

Does anyone reading this thread only want to hear records that they already know? Anyone?

I can't accept that they exist. That's impossible, how did they get to know the tunes in the first place? Did they come to a point in their life when they all of a sudden thought "that's enough, I don't want to hear any new records again, it's oldies all the way for me from now on..."

Come on, the idea of it is hilarious

Dont laugh, To be honest James i do enjoy going to a night thats offering oldies and the tunes i already know as i can still have a great time and a bloody good dance party BUT i also want to go to venues that offer the tunes i dont know and have just as good a time there, for me i want a bit of everything and as long as its on offer i have a choice but i am unfortunate or am i fortunate that where i live neither really exist (1 event every 2 months thats kind of across the board but not much if any rare ok mainly oldies ) or maybe the odd night in London (40 miles away) or further , if your an oldies fan you aint going to go to the likes of Lifeline and visa versa or are you,

For me its not about oldies or newies its about quality of event first and formost, Music, sound system, venue, people, and me i just make the most of it and enjoy whatever i do or go, does that make me half a Buffoon

For me the one thing that seems apparent is the fact that some promoters dont give a toss and just want to put a night on regardless of the effect of another close by event and that is the problem not the punters IMHO of course

Bearsy, the half Buffoon

[Guest Soultown andy]

All djs should be paid,the venue is doing more harm than good if its being run on any other basis,i can understand kev some guys will want to help out there buddys but thats exactly why there are to many bad nites and im not saying for one minute yours is a bad nite.But what about the dj who plays for you for nowt then sticks his hand out to be payed by me,were does that leave us.

Edited September 6, 2007 by Soultown andy

[Dave]

All djs should be paid,the venue is doing more harm than good if its being run on any other basis,i can understand kev some guys will want to help out there buddys but thats exactly why there are to many bad nites and im not saying for one minute yours is a bad nite.But what about the dj who plays for you for nowt then sticks his hand out to be payed by me,were does that leave us.

Good post mate!

That's the sort of point I was trying to make, but you've done it more diplomatically.

[Guest Phil Richards]

Yeah, the populus are sheep, lost sheep without a clue. They just follow each other like stupid sheep. Stick em all in one big pen and cull the lot of them. A mass culling.

That's not natural selection, that's just stupid sheep being slaughtered. Or maybe stick them in a silly farm where kids can go and feed them, point at them and study them.

Natural selection kills off beautiful and rare animals. Natural selection is not a good thing, but a mass culling can be.

This is not about upfront/oldies. It's about good. Too many crap events killing off the good ones.

I'm bloody angry to hear that Lifeline might be stopping while so many crap events are still running. It's just plain wrong.

But if the crap venues are still running thay must be doing something right ?

[Guest Phil Richards]

Who decides what is a crap venue & who is a crap D.J. , there are a few that I think are "crap" that others feel are brilliant, am I right or are they wrong - don't lose sleep over any of this, let's have a bit more common sense about "clashing" but don't let anyone dictate to you about whether you can or can't run a venue.

Des Parker

Spot on Des

[Guest dundeedavie]

i think the problem is to many do's are ran as " we are just a couple of guys who want to put on a do" and therefore not run as a business as such .

no one wants to make a loss of course BUT everyone you EMPLOY needs to be paid and if you make a loss SUCK IT UP and move on to making it better .

[Guest Phil Richards]

This is one of the problems IMHO.

Good DJ's should be paid a good rate, and if they weren't so desperate to feed their ego's they wouldn't get behind the decks without that fair rate.

If you can't justify paying them accordingly, why put the event on?

Its not about getting paid or is it ???????

[Chalky]

But if the crap venues are still running thay must be doing something right ?

maybe? The crap being referred to from what I read are the oldies only venues playing the same old same week in week out. Would you if you were 18 want to get into a music scene where all they play week in week out are the same record at venues attended by people older than their parents in some cases, I know I wouldn't.

The whole scene is getting very stale and needs a good kick up the arse and freshening up IMHO and that begins with the music policy. The scene can only last so long with venues with a policy of playing safe, with venues constantly clashing and all the in fighting that goes with it.

A turning point must be reached sometime in the future or it will probably be too late.

[Guest Soultown andy]

Phil i understand how you and others feel about this and i have had loads of djs who offered to dj for free in the early djs but always paid em regardless of numbers,but it makes life real hard for other promoters to keep there nites going if your up against this.There is no money in promoteing niters most nites its a real sweat to make sure everything is paid before puttin your hand in your pocket to subsidise the nite.

[Guest Phil Richards]

Phil i understand how you and others feel about this and i have had loads of djs who offered to dj for free in the early djs but always paid em regardless of numbers,but it makes life real hard for other promoters to keep there nites going if your up against this.There is no money in promoteing niters most nites its a real sweat to make sure everything is paid before puttin your hand in your pocket to subsidise the nite.

Understand what you are saying Andy but for me its not about getting paid its about doing something i love.

If a promoter asks you to help out i don't see the problem with that.

We allways pay dj's that do the Connaught but i am willing to dj for nothing and i don't see anything wrong in that.

Edited September 6, 2007 by Phil Richards

[Dave]

Understand what you are saying Andy but for me its not about get paid its about doing something i love.

If a promoter asks you to help out i don't see the problem with that.

We allways pay dj's that do the Connaught but i am willing to dj for nothing and i don't see anything wrong in that.

Crash helmet on... it could be argued that in doing it for nowt you are helping to keep an event going that is unable to justify its existence, but is taking customers from another event.

[Dean]

errrrm.................There's a sceptic in me that thinks there's some clever witty dude starts the topic and takes bets on how many posts it will run to, or hands out word bingo to play. Tailor made to get us going. Some interesting points, lot of person baiting. Seem to recall a recent topic "What makes a good northern DJ", presume that got sorted then.

Perhaps we should get out more, only to worthy nights of course. You do know there's porn on the tinter web don't you??

(Just in case you were waiting for "porn"...BINGO!)

[Guest dundeedavie]

Crash helmet on... it could be argued that in doing it for nowt you are helping to keep an event going that is unable to justify its existence, but is taking customers from another event.

you're right Dave to a point .HOWEVER , there are do's out there i personally would crawl over broken glass do be involved in because they are doing something special and innovative

[Guest Phil Richards]

Crash helmet on... it could be argued that in doing it for nowt you are helping to keep an event going that is unable to justify its existence, but is taking customers from another event.

Could be, so should there be a going rate then?

I don't think not paying a dj is going to close another venue down, i might be wrong

Is just that as soon as cash comes into it things go tits up and its not about the music its about making

money

[Mike]

errrrm.................There's a sceptic in me that thinks there's some clever witty dude starts the topic and takes bets on how many posts it will run to, or hands out word bingo to play. Tailor made to get us going. Some interesting points, lot of person baiting. Seem to recall a recent topic "What makes a good northern DJ", presume that got sorted then.

Perhaps we should get out more, only to worthy nights of course. You do know there's porn on the tinter web don't you??

(Just in case you were waiting for "porn"...BINGO!)

as said when started thought it was a interesting topic

"overkill is it a problem ?"

was meant in a general uk or further afield sense

was suprised by some taking it down the local road ( maybe thats why some got wound up? )

just as was suprised at some of pms got

no apoligies, i just make sure I put "general" "uk" or such in next time for those who didnt catch on

[Jason S]

Lots of wisdom on this thread but one thing that I keep coming back to is the thing about 'upfront' playlists. Surely the responsibility for accepting/playing sets that aren't the same old same old rests as much on the shoulders of the punters as it does on the DJs/promoters - obvious statement maybe but true (sure this has been pointed out already but this is now 7 pages long...) It's fine saying (for example) 'reading such and such's playlist you can see they plumbed the depths of the obvious that night in order to rescue things' but away from theorising on an internet forum there is a point where, in the heat of the event, you kinda have to try everything to rescucitate a failing dancefloor and inject some kind of atmosphere into the night. Or just swear at them on the mic, I suppose Of course, the punter and the DJ's tastes have to meet somewhere on common ground if it's truly going to work: I suppose that's where the punter puts their trust in the DJ (and vice versa) I guess at the NESU we're trying to play stuff we think is good, solid, danceable black soul music first and foremost, that just happens to also have the traits of what might be classed a northern soul record (sometimes). Sometimes we just play Northern Soul records cos they're good and we like them and think other people should/will too. One thing we never do is become robo-dj, a living jukebox there to provide records simply for the purpose of going through the motions. Still the case that it's mainly the more known stuff that you throw in that gets the reaction (for us) - despite that fact that we give out Cds of mainly the 'lesser known' stuff so that folk can become familiar with them. As has been suggested somewhere on this thread (maybe a few times by now) you can play as many - what's the best word - 'unfamiliar' tunes as you like but if your crowd sits there looking at you gone out and then moans that you'd just 'played an hour of tunes for yourself' and destroyed their evening what can you do? Apologise for playing great records that sound like the sort of records you'd assume they'd like cos they're (apparently) into retro black soul music (sometimes also called Northern) but didn't like because they'd not heard them everytime they went out? It still amazes me the stuff you'd assume would be the kind of stuff folk would be up for but bomb. End of the day if you put yourself in the position of entertainer you're responsible for quite a few people's enjoyment, some of which may have conflicting views on what is enjoyable. Perhaps you have to work harder to convince people that they don't know they like something yet, but will do. Maybe if you have to try to convince people you're onto a loser already? Maybe veering off topic and waffling but thought I'd while away half an hour while I burn our coasters, I mean soul club CDs

[Chalky]

as said when started thought it was a interesting topic

"overkill is it a problem ?"

was meant in a general uk or further afield sense

was suprised by some taking it down the local road ( maybe thats why some got wound up? )

just as was suprised at some of pms got

no apoligies, i just make sure I put "general" "uk" or such in next time for those who didnt catch on

local is where the problems initially arise IMO Mike. Can be a problem for niters more generally or with a soul night finishing 3 or 4am as people may decide to stay nearer home regardless of the music policies. You only have to look at the SS calendar this weekend, some 40 events advertised......many within the same catchment area. Definate case of overkill!!!

[Winsford Soul]

Posibly true,since the smoking bands came in allnighters has lost its atmosphere am a non smoker so that does'nt bother me when theres a crowd off people around a table one gets up for a smoke they all go you look around the place is half empty and all a sudden they all pile back in half hour later there back out again.

Cheers Billy

Nail on the head Billy. I love this music of ours as much as anyone but i seem to be spending as much time outside as i do inside. At the last Middleton for example there was at any given time about 60 people outside. Same with Winsford, Morecambe etc etc. I can see in the coming months a down turn in attendances because as much as you love the nighter scene if you smoke will you be arsed going somewhere halfway across the country to freeze your balls off because you have to go outside for a fag.

Steve

[Guest ShaneH]

would it be a crazy idea if we did something radical like open the doors up to the general public?

traditionally, the scene is not promoted to the outside world. why not?

there must be a million people plus in greater manchester. surely our fantastic music could be of interest to some of them?

i hope i dont get the usual 'we don't want pissheads/handbaggers/students'

shane

[Mike]

local is where the problems initially arise IMO Mike. Can be a problem for niters more generally or with a soul night finishing 3 or 4am as people may decide to stay nearer home regardless of the music policies. You only have to look at the SS calendar this weekend, some 40 events advertised......many within the same catchment area. Definate case of overkill!!!

yep, but what was on about was in reply to the "wind up" suggestion , as in only ones wound up were those who took it in local way not general.. maybe

[spot]

This thread is starting to make my head spin & ache, even though there are some good points & opinions.

I love this scene (ALL OF IT) & coming back to it has brought myself & my wife back to life. We only wish we could support all the venues round about but we can't, so choices have to be made; Bury clashes with Brighouse, Earl of Doncaster clashes with Hull soul club etc, etc, so we try & visit alternate months.

We love Lifeline & would be gutted if Andy & Mick stopped the nighters & we also love Burnley which appears to clash with Lifeline. Middleton seems to be full always, why? I don't know but it could be because it's bi-monthly.

As for Oldies venues, well I've seen people leave Drax soul night because it's "To Modern" & people moaning & groaning when Neil Jones played Empress & played "Exportations" & "Little Major Williams".

So one persons Oldie is another one Modern, this arguement will rage on for ever (5 pages is enough, me thinks) & nobodies got any answers anyway. So we'll just go where we want & dance our arses off & just enjoy.

Just a thought,

Spot.

[KevH]

You seem to like answering posts I've directed to other people? And no, it's you that just don't get it.

"Some do it for nothing because they love the music"? Maybe so, but it doesn't make them good DJs.

Many do it for nothing because they are desperate to DJ.. what's that if it's not ego?

Likewise, many events have started up in the last two years for the same reason, and it doesn't make them good events.

I know "some venues don't generate enough on the door to pay big money out", and they either have their mates DJing for nothing or petrol money. Then reciprocate with those mates. Those events are mostly unexciting and just serve to take 30 or so people away from good events. If those collectors weren't so keen to Dj and instead supported the good events, along with their 30 punters, the scene would be more healthy, therefore they are one of the problems in doing what they are doing.

Basically I'm agreeing with what Andy, James and Tony have said.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say now, or do you want a diagram?

i know one thing Dave that we'll agree on..that we disagree .you say tomatoe i say red herring.....i'd like to see your diagram now

[Guest gordon russell]

I agree with James on this its not about upfront or oldies its about having a dam good electric dance party with boss tunes, many people putting 'accross the board' nights on that dont really offer much other than some of the popular tunes churned out over and over again.

if some of these were culled we'd be in a lot healthier state, and it just boils down to loads of people trying to buy there way into DJing or coming back on the scene with a few records and thinking hey i can do that hence yet another night pops up offering exactely the same as the one on the weekend befor it and its a vicious circle

working mens club! lol

[Guest andrew bin]

would it be a crazy idea if we did something radical like open the doors up to the general public?

traditionally, the scene is not promoted to the outside world. why not?

there must be a million people plus in greater manchester. surely our fantastic music could be of interest to some of them?

i hope i dont get the usual 'we don't want pissheads/handbaggers/students'

shane

we've allays tried to promote our doos to people out side the soul scene and it works for us, allthough i do get the odd complaint

[KevH]

All djs should be paid,the venue is doing more harm than good if its being run on any other basis,i can understand kev some guys will want to help out there buddys but thats exactly why there are to many bad nites and im not saying for one minute yours is a bad nite.But what about the dj who plays for you for nowt then sticks his hand out to be payed by me,were does that leave us.

good point Andy,should make it clear though that we do pay dj's ,it's just not a lot,and if they want to do it for nowt we supply beer/petrol money anyway.

[Mark Bicknell]

This thread has raised several concerns and points, the common ground here is that we all seem to care and everyone's opinion matters and should be voiced, I would just like to pick up on the DJ fee thing, now over the years I've worked for pretty much all venues, promotions and promoters sometimes when the night has been shall we say a little down in numbers often the DJ's seem to take the loss and personally I have done this more times than I care to remember often writing it off as one of those things, now I tend to ask for a fee taking into account travel,expences etc. these events range from 'The Attic' in Mansfield where the fee really does not come into it, well looked after, good breakfast and a few quid from the lads no problem, gigs like 'The Attic', 'The Orwell' Wigan,'Silks' Wellingborough are the type of venues where you can go down the free style route which for me personally is far more important than simply being a talking juke box, the bigger gigs if it's packed then I exspect to be paid, no amount of money or DJ fees comes anywhere close to covering the amount spent on records, bugger I've spent about three hundred quid in the past seven days and that's a pretty regular practice and I'm by no means a major player when it comes to buying records anymore, so do the math DJ fee against records bought no contest still it's my choice to collect records and we need then don't we?.

Now if I've got to sit on a train for three or four hours, spend my whole weekend often putting my wife and son second, dedicating it to the Northern scene and DJ'ing then I'm sorry but there has to be some kick back in financial terms, now I'm not suited to DJ at all events but I would like to think the venues I do get asked to DJ at book me on merrit, collection, reputation and entertainment value and not because I'm friends with the promoters.

Many promoters pay the going rate or agreed DJ fees no matter what be there 6 people there or 600 and I think that is correct, I've worked for one or two people on this thread and have never had any problems from them when it comes to paying the wages, unfair of me to name names here but they know who they are.

When someone phones me offering a booking I'm straight up about the fee if it can't be agreed then I simply don't do the gig and this is often respected both ways, I think £100.00 for a 60 or 90 minute spot in this day and age is more than reasonable to ask for at the more established and well attended gigs and more on the distance gigs without being greedy, less for a smaller event is often the case, as for doing it for nothing well perhaps it is better for these events to self DJ and let them run their course.

Please these comments are not being flash or ego driven but one or two of us have been doing this DJ thing for many years, I try to do my own thing at the right venues musically but I'm a little fed up sometimes that the DJ's are being blamed for the current state of the scene...do you really think that some of us want to constantly play the same records because quite frankly I'm as pissed off at playing Bobby Kline, Majestics, Cashmeres, George Blackwell, Four Tracks, Elbie Parker, Troy Dodds Jimmy Burns...etc, etc. etc. as some of the lesser hard to find 'bog standers' so it cuts deep both ways.....Bazza talks of balance but is this possible in the present climate? a hard one to call.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Quinvy]

Burnley is on a FRIDAY night.......Lifeline is on a SATURDAY night.........the venues are 120 miles appart. How can that be clashing?????

I think I've been to every Lifeline bar 2.....and I always bring others with me......I've changed my dates several times to avoid clashing.....1st Friday of the month is Prestwich,which was my original date until The Wilton decided to move their allnighter to this date. Nothing was said to me, I just altered my date......second Friday is Lowton/DDA........third Friday is Bury town hall....All are in the north west...that just leaves the fourth Friday, and that's what I use.

I think it's very unfair to blame Burnley for the demise of Lifeline. I would have been there as usual. Where were the rest of you????

Phil.

[Guest Phil Richards]

good point Andy,should make it clear though that we do pay dj's ,it's just not a lot,and if they want to do it for nowt we supply beer/petrol money anyway.

Not a good mix beer & petrol

[KevH]

Not a good mix beer & petrol

not in the same glass anyway......

[Guest Bearsy]

Burnley is on a FRIDAY night.......Lifeline is on a SATURDAY night.........the venues are 120 miles appart. How can that be clashing?????

I think I've been to every Lifeline bar 2.....and I always bring others with me......I've changed my dates several times to avoid clashing.....1st Friday of the month is Prestwich,which was my original date until The Wilton decided to move their allnighter to this date. Nothing was said to me, I just altered my date......second Friday is Lowton/DDA........third Friday is Bury town hall....All are in the north west...that just leaves the fourth Friday, and that's what I use.

I think it's very unfair to blame Burnley for the demise of Lifeline. I would have been there as usual. Where were the rest of you????

Phil.

Phil if more promoters had your way of thinking then it would be better thats for sure and you are obviously thinking of your venue and to make it the best it possibly can be ,

what you going to do if someone else starts up another night as same as you, you cant move again can you and thats where the problem lays

[Steve G]

Lots of wisdom on this thread but one thing that I keep coming back to is the thing about 'upfront' playlists. Surely the responsibility for accepting/playing sets that aren't the same old same old rests as much on the shoulders of the punters as it does on the DJs/promoters - obvious statement maybe but true (sure this has been pointed out already but this is now 7 pages long...) It's fine saying (for example) 'reading such and such's playlist you can see they plumbed the depths of the obvious that night in order to rescue things' but away from theorising on an internet forum there is a point where, in the heat of the event, you kinda have to try everything to rescucitate a failing dancefloor and inject some kind of atmosphere into the night. Or just swear at them on the mic, I suppose Of course, the punter and the DJ's tastes have to meet somewhere on common ground if it's truly going to work: I suppose that's where the punter puts their trust in the DJ (and vice versa) I guess at the NESU we're trying to play stuff we think is good, solid, danceable black soul music first and foremost, that just happens to also have the traits of what might be classed a northern soul record (sometimes). Sometimes we just play Northern Soul records cos they're good and we like them and think other people should/will too. One thing we never do is become robo-dj, a living jukebox there to provide records simply for the purpose of going through the motions. Still the case that it's mainly the more known stuff that you throw in that gets the reaction (for us) - despite that fact that we give out Cds of mainly the 'lesser known' stuff so that folk can become familiar with them. As has been suggested somewhere on this thread (maybe a few times by now) you can play as many - what's the best word - 'unfamiliar' tunes as you like but if your crowd sits there looking at you gone out and then moans that you'd just 'played an hour of tunes for yourself' and destroyed their evening what can you do? Apologise for playing great records that sound like the sort of records you'd assume they'd like cos they're (apparently) into retro black soul music (sometimes also called Northern) but didn't like because they'd not heard them everytime they went out? It still amazes me the stuff you'd assume would be the kind of stuff folk would be up for but bomb. End of the day if you put yourself in the position of entertainer you're responsible for quite a few people's enjoyment, some of which may have conflicting views on what is enjoyable. Perhaps you have to work harder to convince people that they don't know they like something yet, but will do. Maybe if you have to try to convince people you're onto a loser already? Maybe veering off topic and waffling but thought I'd while away half an hour while I burn our coasters, I mean soul club CDs

As someone that does my fair share of evening do's, I know exactly where you are coming from. I'd like to be more upfront, but I am not going to be a p-nut and play to an empty floor for an hour either - so you have to strike a balance. I love clearing the floor a couple of times, but not for a whole set.....Nothing wrong with some oldies per se, as long as they are not the same played out ones. There's tons you rarely hear. I'd personally rather hear a lesser played oldies than hearing Unique Blend, Jackie Lee, Salvadors or Corey Blake again. Yet the dancefloor often says otherwise, so we got to mix it up a bit at evening do's. Niters are different, and although I am a rare attendee at Niters (very rare), I couldn't even think of attending a niter that doesn't play new sounds. I'd be bored senseless staying up all night hearing oldies.

[Guest Rowly]

These people don't exist though, do they?

Does anyone reading this thread only want to hear records that they already know? Anyone?

I can't accept that they exist. That's impossible, how did they get to know the tunes in the first place? Did they come to a point in their life when they all of a sudden thought "that's enough, I don't want to hear any new records again, it's oldies all the way for me from now on..."

Come on, the idea of it is hilarious

ME!

[Guest gibber]

That's the way it SHOULD work, it certainly does on most other club scenes.

The Soul scene that's another story. I'm sure most of the dj's on here have been paid less than was agreed more than once.

Derek

Sorry I hold my hand up I tried something different at the LEL club and struggled losing about £100 a soul night and £1000 an all-nighter paid my main guest djs with the others taking pity and taking what I can afford ,even Sam took pity on me and reduced is rates , I fell so guilty that when I saw him again I gave him. the rest what we agreed on .

I could have gone down the road like my previous co promoter (who upset very one and just used to parade his young wife ) wanted and the manager wanted to do as well and gone down the oldie route could have been packed every time but I got stubborn even to the point that manager gave it to me longs I ran it at my own risk .

It changed to different Fridays so not to clashed then 2 weeks before some one puts on night locally that wasn't there originally . Northants area mainly .

People kept saying it wont matter different type of night . Sorry peeps it does matter because even now when I go out people say I enjoyed your night THAT TIME . Why just the once " well my mates like the oldies so I go with them " The point is which has been mention before on here is if there was no other night on that night his mates would have gone to his choice and even might started to enjoy it them self's.

[Guest gibber]

Just like too add that i never wanted to dj , just to put something differant in the cambs area.

[Dysonsoul]

Burnley is on a FRIDAY night.......Lifeline is on a SATURDAY night.........the venues are 120 miles appart. How can that be clashing?????

I think I've been to every Lifeline bar 2.....and I always bring others with me......I've changed my dates several times to avoid clashing.....1st Friday of the month is Prestwich,which was my original date until The Wilton decided to move their allnighter to this date. Nothing was said to me, I just altered my date......second Friday is Lowton/DDA........third Friday is Bury town hall....All are in the north west...that just leaves the fourth Friday, and that's what I use.

I think it's very unfair to blame Burnley for the demise of Lifeline. I would have been there as usual. Where were the rest of you????

Phil.

just to be clear on this there is no demise of lifeline ,we made the decision to hibernate from regular niters for specific reasons,first and foremost because of the amount of events clashing (it's a free country no one can stop any one holding a event of course ) secondly and more relevent to us events clashing with sme music policy .. ie burnley and united soul - do i really need to go through the obvious reasons ? jesus common sense,courtesy,maners ,respect also come into the frame.most folk struggle with 1 nighter never mind 2.

of course numbers are up down and sideways for us like lots of venues,but far from critical -think lowest was 160 roughly.so you'll be relieved to know phill you ain't responsible for our so called demise.weekenders sold out and cos of demand our efforts are going into a second weekender .then that's us with no headaches over dates and politics -so everyone can sort there own problems out.it all comes out in the wash,cleansing time is due to commence.

[Pauldonnelly]

Dkof Peterborough

Interesting thread, diverse as always as far as overkill, we at dkof made a decsison five weeks ago to contact all Peterboro venue operators with regard to thier dates. This week all the dates were recieved and circulated. We had already booked our 2008 dates and 90% of our DJ's.

We did change one date as not to clash with a national event and I cancelled my 52 birthday bash as it was on the same night as Peterborougn Right Track.

Although we are completely different to all the other venues we still realise that two venues in one area on the same night does no one any good whatsoever, after a turbalant year in Peterborough I'm chuffed that some normaility is just around the corner.

for the records DKOF...

1-every DJ who is booked will be paid the agreed fee whatever the attendance on the night and in some cases prior.

2-we have NO music policy its up to who is playing to decide what he/she wants to play our venue will NEVER be judged a success by how busy the dance floor is simply by those that keep returning.

3-We do encourage DJ's to post playlists not for no other reason but to give those that want to discover Peterborough DKOF a feel of what we are about. I'm a sensitive soul and would be mighty upset if a mini bus full of guys and gals from 100 mile away turned up expecting the top 100, we are NOT about this and never will be.

4-We will always attempt to be professional, honest and polite to our landlord, the people that support us and those we engage to entertain us, we know no different. Every penny we make (and we ent yet ) will be pushed back into making Peterborough dkof interesting and diverse.

We're a small club with a big heart that with the support of the local rare soul music fraternity will keep attempting to offer our area a different kettle of fish.

Next DKOF

Oct PETERBOROUGH DKOF

Friday 5th October 8 to 1am ish The Dog in a Doublet - Whittlesey - PETERBOROUGH

Tony Parker, Peter Burton, Neal Bull, Ray Mohoney and Mick Donnelly £5

then

Dec PETERBOROUGH DKOF

SATURDAY 22nd Dec 8 to 1am ish? The Dog in a Doublet - Whittlesey - PETERBOROUGH

Andy Dyson, Mark Bicknell, Nogs and Paul Donnelly £5

cya

[Guest James Trouble]

Oldies/newies is irrelevent. It's nothing to do with it.

I'm no newies fan, and I'm no oldies hater. I just love to dance to and enjoy good + exciting music. I don't think anyone else on the scene is that different?

Here's my theory...

The oldies haters don't really hate 'oldies', they just hate having to hear the same old top 500 records played by a bunch of crap DJs with no imagination.

The 'newies' haters, and those folk who avoid events like Lifeline and The Union in favour of so called oldies events don't really hate hearing tunes they've not heard before, they just don't like the DJs who play alot of crossoverish/70s/funkyish stuff.

My evidence for this is firstly the success of Burnley, which is a very popular forward thinking venue, the crowd there are lapping up tunes that you don't often hear elsewhere, BUT they have a 6ts only policy, which although I disagree with on principle, you have to respect it. If a night doesn't have a clear identity and solid ground to stand on then what is the point of putting it on? Especially in the current environment of wishy washy half hearted ego fueled crap that is on offer accross most of the country.

Secondly, I have DJed to what appear to be an 'oldies' crowd, with plenty of tash wearers, with baggies and flared skirts and wigan badges, and they are the ones who are dancing like nutters to unknown, recent discoveries that they have never heard before, as well as deepfunk classics which sound a bit 'northernish'. This proves to me that the apparent 'oldies' crowd don't not want to hear new tunes, they just don't like a certain sort of tune, that's a bit crossoverish, and bit nicey nicey 70s without an aggressive beat or obvious 'northernness'.

And thirdly no one admits to only wanting to hear tunes they know when they go out, apart fror Rowly (cheers for that pal! ). These people are created in the imagination of the 'oldies haters'. These buffoons don't even exist!

So the oldies/newies debate doesn't carry any water in my opinion, it's like argueing who would win a fight between Superman and Spiderman. It's stupid. What does exist is a split in tastes. And what is true is that there are too many clashes, too many ego driven promoters who are not prepareed to do what is best for the scene and the punters.

To be clear, my taste is broad and often bizaar. The above are my observations and opinion, not my personal taste. My personal taste is for a damn good party with great music played, an exciting night out. Not too many of those around at the moment, but plenty of ego driven dross...

Maybe I'm wrong with the above observations though? But I'm not wrong about the lack of great partys, and I'm not wrong about ego driven promoters.

We can do better, we deserve better...

Edited September 7, 2007 by James Trouble

[Guest Simon]

Oldies/newies is irrelevent. It's nothing to do with it.

I'm no newies fan, and I'm no oldies hater. I just love to dance to and enjoy good + exciting music. I don't think anyone else on the scene is that different?

Here's my theory...

The oldies haters don't really hate 'oldies', they just hate having to hear the same old top 500 records played by a bunch of crap DJs with no imagination.

The 'newies' haters, and those folk who avoid events like Lifeline and The Union in favour of so called oldies events don't really hate hearing tunes they've not heard before, they just don't like the DJs who play alot of crossoverish/70s/funkyish stuff.

My evidence for this is firstly the success of Burnley, which is a very popular forward thinking venue, the crowd there are lapping up tunes that you don't often hear elsewhere, BUT they have a 6ts only policy, which although I disagree with on principle, you have to respect it. If a night doesn't have a clear identity and solid ground to stand on then what is the point of putting it on? Especially in the current environment of wishy washy half hearted ego fueled crap that is on offer accross most of the country.

Secondly, I have DJed to what appear to be an 'oldies' crowd, with plenty of tash wearers, with baggies and flared skirts and wigan badges, and they are the ones who are dancing like nutters to unknown, recent discoveries that they have never heard before, as well as deepfunk classics which sound a bit 'northernish'. This proves to me that the apparent 'oldies' crowd don't not want to hear new tunes, they just don't like a certain sort of tune, that's a bit crossoverish, and bit nicey nicey 70s without an aggressive beat or obvious 'northernness'.

And thirdly no one admits to only wanting to hear tunes they know when they go out, apart fror Rowly (cheers for that pal! ). These people are created in the imagination of the 'oldies haters'. These buffoons don't even exist!

So the oldies/newies debate doesn't carry any water in my opinion, it's like argueing who would win a fight between Superman and Spiderman. It's stupid. What does exist is a split in tastes. And what is true is that there are too many clashes, too many ego driven promoters who are not prepareed to do what is best for the scene and the punters.

To be clear, my taste is broad and often bizaar. The above are my observations and opinion, not my personal taste. My personal taste is for a damn good party with great music played, an exciting night out. Not too many of those around at the moment, but plenty of ego driven dross...

Maybe I'm wrong with the above observations though? But I'm not wrong about the lack of great partys, and I'm not wrong about ego driven promoters.

We can do better, we deserve better...

Spot on James!

The bit about punters wanting to hear a certain type of music is so spot on, that's also a skill of being able to read the crowd.

I've tested this out at 'Da Doo Ron Ron', i play records regularly that i'm sure 99% of the audience have never heard before but because they have a certain type of sound & immediacy they genuinely go down very well on first play & it's not long before they become as popular as real classics.

A good dj should be able to do this on the Northern Scene, i think what some spinners don't understand is it's not neccesarily about what tune you're playing but how & when you play it. I've seen some people panic when they've cleared the floor & stick on the most obvious & big record they can think of & still don't always get the floor back, this imo goes to prove it's how you put the set together that is the key.

Although i've never been i've also stated on here that Burnley sounds like one of very few venues that really understand how to put a 'party' on, it's not a new concept either, pretty much back to basics if you ask me, good djs playing music with passion, imagination in a party atmosphere of a mainly 6ts variety.

Bazza kept on asking the question why can't upfront be played alongside oldies, i agree why can't they, this is where the best nights on the scene have always been, as long as they're oldies with imagination, that is what the Northern Soul scene has always meant to me, that's the Northern Soul scene & not the "Soul" scene!

Simon

[Little-stevie]

Oldies/newies is irrelevent. It's nothing to do with it.

I'm no newies fan, and I'm no oldies hater. I just love to dance to and enjoy good + exciting music. I don't think anyone else on the scene is that different?

Here's my theory...

The oldies haters don't really hate 'oldies', they just hate having to hear the same old top 500 records played by a bunch of crap DJs with no imagination.

The 'newies' haters, and those folk who avoid events like Lifeline and The Union in favour of so called oldies events don't really hate hearing tunes they've not heard before, they just don't like the DJs who play alot of crossoverish/70s/funkyish stuff.

My evidence for this is firstly the success of Burnley, which is a very popular forward thinking venue, the crowd there are lapping up tunes that you don't often hear elsewhere, BUT they have a 6ts only policy, which although I disagree with on principle, you have to respect it. If a night doesn't have a clear identity and solid ground to stand on then what is the point of putting it on? Especially in the current environment of wishy washy half hearted ego fueled crap that is on offer accross most of the country.

Secondly, I have DJed to what appear to be an 'oldies' crowd, with plenty of tash wearers, with baggies and flared skirts and wigan badges, and they are the ones who are dancing like nutters to unknown, recent discoveries that they have never heard before, as well as deepfunk classics which sound a bit 'northernish'. This proves to me that the apparent 'oldies' crowd don't not want to hear new tunes, they just don't like a certain sort of tune, that's a bit crossoverish, and bit nicey nicey 70s without an aggressive beat or obvious 'northernness'.

And thirdly no one admits to only wanting to hear tunes they know when they go out, apart fror Rowly (cheers for that pal! ). These people are created in the imagination of the 'oldies haters'. These buffoons don't even exist!

So the oldies/newies debate doesn't carry any water in my opinion, it's like argueing who would win a fight between Superman and Spiderman. It's stupid. What does exist is a split in tastes. And what is true is that there are too many clashes, too many ego driven promoters who are not prepareed to do what is best for the scene and the punters.

To be clear, my taste is broad and often bizaar. The above are my observations and opinion, not my personal taste. My personal taste is for a damn good party with great music played, an exciting night out. Not too many of those around at the moment, but plenty of ego driven dross...

Maybe I'm wrong with the above observations though? But I'm not wrong about the lack of great partys, and I'm not wrong about ego driven promoters.

We can do better, we deserve better...

One of the best posts i have seen on this topic...

I am a lover of hard fast northern/mid tempo/crossover/gritty RnB and 70s too,i want to hear it all in the same venue on the same night..Many of my freinds only want the fast 60s northern,others only want the crossover /70s/mid tempo others want early RnB...

There are more and more nights now to supply the individual needs of people with a limited taste,many of these nights do have a small crowd but supply the need for the crowd that go there,these smaller nights with a set music policy are just as much the lifeblood of the scene...

Its like a left or Right wing party,they start off as one strong party but slowly it slits in two and then into smaller groups to cater for the needs of all...I would like one strong party and although i would not like all the policy,i can always go for a walk into the record bar or outside for a fag while there is something playing that aint to my taste...

One persons upfront tunes is another persons oldies ..

What is needed is for promoters and punters to come together.The all niter crowd is now a small one and too many niters aint good for the scene....

The real problem is that many of the promoters are at war with each other for various reasons and thats not gonna change,the bad blood is set in stone and they are all fighting for the same crowd...I would like to think that some will put all the shit behind them and smoke the peace pipe for the good of the scene but its like lord of the flies...Some promoters will say one thing regarding not clashing or have an agreement but when you turn your back they are trying to push your face in the shit..Its like war,they are all trying to get certain people/djs on side to make the other one suffer...

There are 3 types of promoter

1....They do it for hard cash only and will try and destroy any others that dare to put on an event on the same planet..

2.. The ones that do a promotions for the love of the music but still need to make a small profit/ for all the time/effort required..

3... The one who does the night for pure love and can take a loss because they aint short of a few quid..

The answer is Prestatyn style niters with 5 rooms...But sadly 5 rooms aint enough for some ...

God bless the promoter,who would want to be one

[Guest Simon]

Another thing re obvious playlists: Peeps used to make tapes up for each other & you'd go home & play the tape to death & fall in love with certain tracks, i used to have peeps do me a lot of these tapes in the early days & a lot of the tracks i'm into nowadays are purely down to this, i know you can post up mp3s etc. nowadays but it's not quite the same thing as listening to a tape imo.

DJ stripes: When i first starting djing i first had to convince my peeers in Brighton that i was any good & then when i'd passed that 'test' i hoped to get dj spots in other parts of the country, my ultiamte aim was to be able to someday get a spot at the CSC or the 100 club or other venues of that stature, i always assumed i'd have to get to a very good standard to be able to do this & that i'd also need my own tunes & identity to stand out from the crowd, i also aimed to gather as much information & knowledge on NS so that i'd be respected, i like to think when i finally got offered a spot at the CSC that my hard work & passion for the music had paid of it & when i finally did that set it really was worth all of that hard work.

I must admit i get a bit frustrated when i see people spinning at certain venues with their top 40 big hits of the last 3 years & seemingly not had to do a lot apart from splash some cash to do this, i also had people to look up to who i wanted to be as good as & emulate, tbh without putting anyone down there doesn't seem to be that much competition out there at the moment, i rarely look at a playlist on here & think i wish i'd played that set, usually more like i'm glad i didn't have to listen to that boring load of unimaginative tripe.

Simon

P.S. Although the above may sound negative in parts i'm still very passionate & optomistic for the scene in the long haul, there are dos around that still hold up to the principles i belive in starting off with Luton tonight, then Burnley & any other venues i hear or read about that are doing things the right way!

[Coops]

Dkof Peterborough

Interesting thread, diverse as always as far as overkill, we at dkof made a decsison five weeks ago to contact all Peterboro venue operators with regard to thier dates. This week all the dates were recieved and circulated. We had already booked our 2008 dates and 90% of our DJ's.

We did change one date as not to clash with a national event and I cancelled my 52 birthday bash as it was on the same night as Peterborougn Right Track.

Although we are completely different to all the other venues we still realise that two venues in one area on the same night does no one any good whatsoever, after a turbalant year in Peterborough I'm chuffed that some normaility is just around the corner.

for the records DKOF...

1-every DJ who is booked will be paid the agreed fee whatever the attendance on the night and in some cases prior.

2-we have NO music policy its up to who is playing to decide what he/she wants to play our venue will NEVER be judged a success by how busy the dance floor is simply by those that keep returning.

3-We do encourage DJ's to post playlists not for no other reason but to give those that want to discover Peterborough DKOF a feel of what we are about. I'm a sensitive soul and would be mighty upset if a mini bus full of guys and gals from 100 mile away turned up expecting the top 100, we are NOT about this and never will be.

4-We will always attempt to be professional, honest and polite to our landlord, the people that support us and those we engage to entertain us, we know no different. Every penny we make (and we ent yet ) will be pushed back into making Peterborough dkof interesting and diverse.

We're a small club with a big heart that with the support of the local rare soul music fraternity will keep attempting to offer our area a different kettle of fish.

Next DKOF

Oct PETERBOROUGH DKOF

Friday 5th October 8 to 1am ish The Dog in a Doublet - Whittlesey - PETERBOROUGH

Tony Parker, Peter Burton, Neal Bull, Ray Mohoney and Mick Donnelly £5

then

Dec PETERBOROUGH DKOF

SATURDAY 22nd Dec 8 to 1am ish? The Dog in a Doublet - Whittlesey - PETERBOROUGH

Andy Dyson, Mark Bicknell, Nogs and Paul Donnelly £5

cya

this month's "sneaked-in-under-the-fence-event-advert-award" goes to mr, PD nice one paul

[Little-stevie]

this month's "sneaked-in-under-the-fence-event-advert-award" goes to mr, PD nice one paul

I am sure we have all done it at some point Coops..Its what promoters have to do with all the overkill and competition..We sneak it into the thread or just go mad with a signature underneath ...