NEV Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 HI AGAIN I WAS ALWAYS LED TO BELIEVE THE YELLOW COPIES WERE BOOT ,IS THIS THE CASE OR GENUINE 2ND ISSUE? THANKS NEV
NEV Posted July 21, 2007 Author Posted July 21, 2007 boots as far as I'm aware. cheers Chalky think i might just pm you direct if i need any info in future,mind of information! cheers nev
Pete S Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 There's two yellow ones, a Trans American and one that just says Trans, someone was saying that these Trans ones are official reissues, at the end of the day - who cares, neither yellow ones are originals so they are still bootlegs or reissues!
Trev Thomas Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 There's two yellow ones, a Trans American and one that just says Trans, someone was saying that these Trans ones are official reissues, at the end of the day - who cares, neither yellow ones are originals so they are still bootlegs or reissues! not according to john manship who has a yellow one on his website at the moment for £75, havnt got a copy of his bootleg guide to hand but it lists the differences between propper yellow ones & counterfeit copys in there
Pete S Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 not according to john manship who has a yellow one on his website at the moment for £75, havnt got a copy of his bootleg guide to hand but it lists the differences between propper yellow ones & counterfeit copys in there Yeah he's right, I forgot there was a yellow original as well! Must be rarer than the orange.
Guest Adam G Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Nev Paul Mooney knows the ins and outs of this track as he owns the publishing on it and is in contact with Bob Relf who apparantley is in quite a bad way health wise.I am sure he knows the definative answers. Adam
Soul-slider Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Nev Paul Mooney knows the ins and outs of this track as he owns the publishing on it and is in contact with Bob Relf who apparantley is in quite a bad way health wise.I am sure he knows the definative answers. Adam My yellow 'Trans' copy has an official stamp in the run out grooves.....
Baz Atkinson Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) My yellow 'Trans' copy has an official stamp in the run out grooves..... yep thats the proper one and the harder of the two.or is it the legit reissue? is the original one a different shade of yellow? BAZ A Edited July 21, 2007 by baz atkinson
Guest Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 My yellow 'Trans' copy has an official stamp in the run out grooves..... Just like the bootleg
Simon T Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Some previous debate on the subject here: https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.p...c=24805&hl=
NEV Posted July 21, 2007 Author Posted July 21, 2007 HI AGAIN I WAS ALWAYS LED TO BELIEVE THE YELLOW COPIES WERE BOOT ,IS THIS THE CASE OR GENUINE 2ND ISSUE? THANKS NEV SO FAR ,I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THE YELLOW "TRANS RECORDS" ARE RE-ISSUES YELLOW "TRANS AMERICAN" 2ND PRESS ORIGINALS ORANGE"TRANS AMERICAN" IST PRESS ORIGINALS(RAREST) WHILST ON THE SUBJECT I DO THINK THE WORD "BOOT" IS OFTEN REFERRED TO RE-ISSUES,WHEN TECHNICALLY THEY ARE ACTUALLY LEGAL RE-ISSUES . ACCORDING TO JM'S WEB INFO :-Original Label logo reads TRANS AMERICAN not just TRANS RECORDS, this copy is a1973 repress from the company using the original master stamping plate.Great sound quality NOW THAT WEVE SORT OF ESTABLISHED ,CLARIFIED AS BEST WE CAN,ANYONE GOT A TRANS AMERICAN FOR SALE PLEASE? NEV
Ady Potts Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Here's a strange thing. When I first started going out to LA i'd mentioned (prior to leaving these shores) some local titles to collectors out there that I had in small quantity, the 'orange' Bob Relf being one of them. Interesting, they'd never seen them before. All the copies I took out there were grabbed off me within days of landing. It's strange, but the only label colour that had been seen was the odd trashed yellow one. So did someone go out there & grab all the orange stock in one hit in the early days? If you look on popsike they all, apart from one copy, come from the U.K. Or is in fact the 'orange' the second press that was pressed for the U.K. market ? I honestly dont know, but it does look like all the orange ones came over in one lot. So who brought them over ? Perhaps they will tell us ? Just a thought. pottsy
Ady Potts Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Also, I find it strange that the 2 numbers prior to Bob Relf's no TA-0010 are yellow labels. Village Crusaders - TA-0008 yellow label Aki Aleong - TA-0009 yellow label I know, lets make TA-0010 an orange label, then re-press it on yellow. Cant see them doing that somehow, can you ?
pikeys dog Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Also, I find it strange that the 2 numbers prior to Bob Relf's no TA-0010 are yellow labels. Village Crusaders - TA-0008 yellow label Aki Aleong - TA-0009 yellow label I know, lets make TA-0010 an orange label, then re-press it on yellow. Cant see them doing that somehow, can you ? Pressing plant worker: "Boss, we've just got an order in for a record on Trans American - only we're running out of Canary Yellow paper for the labels" Pressing plant boss: "Print half of em on Pumpkin Yellow, no ones gonna care that the labels a different shade - afterall judging on previous sales they'll sell diddly squat any way"
Ady Potts Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) Could someone post up a close up scan of the Aki Aleong, please. Would be interested to see the telephone number on the label, I was just wondering if it's the same as the next number, Bob Relf on the yellow label ? Here's a picture or 2 of the yellow label copy, with the stamp in the dead wax that looks like 2 ovals with a 'V' coming from a dot in the centre. Edited July 21, 2007 by pottsy
Guest Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 After going through both threads it still seems very unclear. Which is the true first release US original? There is the orange label with machine 'antenna' stamps and there is supposedly also a rarer yellow label original, or is that not original after all? Is there an orange label bootleg?
Chalky Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 As for the Trans one supposedly being a legit reissue, why would they change the label name? It wouldn't be the first time the original plates have been used to make a boot/counterfeit, the Capitol boots, Jerry Cook etc spring to mind. The only ones I'd ever trust are the yellow and orange with the matrix stramp. Owt else is a counterfeit/boot/pressing/re-issue or whatever term you wish to use IMHO and should be treated as such and sold as such.
Ady Potts Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 If the telephone number on this Aki Aleong is 213-384-9334, & I cant bloody read it, then it points towards the Yellow Trans-American release of Bob Relf, with the 'stamp' in the dead wax as a first issue. Or even if the tel. number isn't the same, it would seem most likely the pressing plant would carry on using the same paper before swapping to another colour. The tel. no changed on the orange one, its 213-389-9938
Guest Paul Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Hello, There was a yellow issue on 'Trans' which was a legitimate repress, using the original stampers. It was pressed at Rainbo in Los Angeles in the early '70s. The reason the label name / design was slightly different may have been that the original films/ plates weren't available. These things happen. I seem to recall a bootleg version from around 1974 on which all copies had a 'skip' after the spoken section. In fact, an early Goldmine CD used the version which skipped! Paul Mooney
Chalky Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 The reason the label name / design was slightly different may have been that the original films/ plates weren't available. These things happen. Paul Mooney Were they done by the original owner of the Trans American label or by someone in possesion of the original plates? I still find it odd they changed the name? I'm gonna need some more convincing that they are 100% legitimate,
Ady Potts Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Hello, There was a yellow issue on 'Trans' which was a legitimate repress, using the original stampers. It was pressed at Rainbo in Los Angeles in the early '70s. Paul Mooney Hello Paul, Are you 100% sure about this? No chance it was an orange issue on Trans-American that was a legitimate repress? They wouldn't have changed the label name to 'Trans' if it was legit. Regards, pottsy
Trev Thomas Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Hello Paul, Are you 100% sure about this? No chance it was an orange issue on Trans-American that was a legitimate repress? They wouldn't have changed the label name to 'Trans' if it was legit. Regards, pottsy ive got the yellow one that pottsy posted scans of, just been down to mates house to compare it with his orange one..stamps in deadwax are exactly the same, vinyl is identical i.e. same thickness, appearance, in fact they are identical in every way apart from the colour of the label....wheres john manship when we need him
Chalky Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 ive got the yellow one that pottsy posted scans of, just been down to mates house to compare it with his orange one..stamps in deadwax are exactly the same, vinyl is identical i.e. same thickness, appearance, in fact they are identical in every way apart from the colour of the label....wheres john manship when we need him personally think it's as already said, simple case of using whatever label colour they had at the time of print run.
Trev Thomas Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 personally think it's as already said, simple case of using whatever label colour they had at the time of print run. totally agree with ya mate, wouldnt be the first case of this happening, exits - you got to have money, springs to mind, came out on yellow & green labels
Guest Paul Posted July 21, 2007 Posted July 21, 2007 Hello, All I know is that some yellow 'Trans' copies were pressed at the same plant (Rainbo) in the early 1970s using the same stampers which had been used back in 1968. And Bob Relf told me that Aki Aleong had pressed more copies up in the early 1970s to satisfy overseas demand. He remembered this because he had just been over here on tour with Earl Nelson. I've no idea why the label name and logo were modified. There could be many simple reasons - and at least it suggests that they weren't trying to emulate the original issue. Bob doesn't speak very highly of Aki Aleong and he was annoyed that his song was credited to "Lou Baretto" at the time. Paul Mooney
Ady Potts Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 in fact they are identical in every way apart from the colour of the label.... So are you saying they had the same telephone number ? Just double check that.
Guest Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Hello Paul, Are you 100% sure about this? No chance it was an orange issue on Trans-American that was a legitimate repress? They wouldn't have changed the label name to 'Trans' if it was legit. Regards, pottsy Potsy, TRANS AMERICAN 0010 original orange or yellow label .. We assume Yellow was the first run because it matches earlier releases on the label. The ORIGINAL has both Orange or Yellow labels, a DRUM with 2 DRUMSTICKS design matrix stamp in the deadwax. TRANS RECORDS 0010 this is a 1973 repress using the original master stamping plate. Great sound quality and legit. TRANS AMERICAN 0010 Counterfiet on Yellow design label, deadwax is 17.5 cm WITH TA - 0010 - B scratched into the 4 turn wide deadwax. There is no DRUM with 2 DRUMSTICKS stamp in the deadwax.
Ady Potts Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Potsy, TRANS AMERICAN 0010 original orange or yellow label .. We assume Yellow was the first run because it matches earlier releases on the label. The ORIGINAL has both Orange or Yellow labels, a DRUM with 2 DRUMSTICKS design matrix stamp in the deadwax. TRANS RECORDS 0010 this is a 1973 repress using the original master stamping plate. Great sound quality and legit. TRANS AMERICAN 0010 Counterfiet on Yellow design label, deadwax is 17.5 cm WITH TA - 0010 - B scratched into the 4 turn wide deadwax. There is no DRUM with 2 DRUMSTICKS stamp in the deadwax. John, From the facts it looks like the yellow label Trans-American (with stamp in dead wax) is the first press. The Orange one is the second press. Its not 'exactly' the same label, because by the time this was pressed they had changed their telephone number. You & Paul seem very definite about this 1973 re-press, as a matter of interest, did you get them done?
Soul-slider Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 John, From the facts it looks like the yellow label Trans-American (with stamp in dead wax) is the first press. The Orange one is the second press. Its not 'exactly' the same label, because by the time this was pressed they had changed their telephone number. You & Paul seem very definite about this 1973 re-press, as a matter of interest, did you get them done?
Trev Thomas Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 So are you saying they had the same telephone number ? Just double check that. hi ady didnt notice that, telephone numbers are different, yellow is 213-384-9334 orange..213-389-9938
Ady Potts Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Hello, All I know is that some yellow 'Trans' copies were pressed at the same plant (Rainbo) in the early 1970s using the same stampers which had been used back in 1968. Paul Mooney Hello Paul, Would you mind me asking you how you know this, please. Regards, pottsy
Pete S Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Hello Paul, Are you 100% sure about this? No chance it was an orange issue on Trans-American that was a legitimate repress? They wouldn't have changed the label name to 'Trans' if it was legit. Regards, pottsy Also I honestly don't remember seeing the Trans pressings around in the mid 70's plus why would they press it in the early 70's when it didn't reach it's huge popularity til 1974?
Trev Thomas Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 (edited) Also I honestly don't remember seeing the Trans pressings around in the mid 70's plus why would they press it in the early 70's when it didn't reach it's huge popularity til 1974? Edited July 22, 2007 by soulman1964
Trev Thomas Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 just out of interest, what year was it released on black magic ?
Godzilla Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 hi ady didnt notice that, telephone numbers are different, yellow is 213-384-9334 orange..213-389-9938 I mentioned this last year when I asked about the label. Maybe Paul, Potsy or someone else could add a bit of info to this thread now? https://www.soul-source.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=36401 Cheers Godz
Pete S Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 just out of interest, what year was it released on black magic ? 75 - but it was a rerecorded version
Ady Potts Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Now this is interesting. Just been told, by a man that does know, that the Yellow label was the first to get played over here.
Ady Potts Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Also I honestly don't remember seeing the Trans pressings around in the mid 70's plus why would they press it in the early 70's when it didn't reach it's huge popularity til 1974? You have a point there Pete, very odd, I must say.
Trev Thomas Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 (edited) Now this is interesting. Just been told, by a man that does know, that the Yellow label was the first to get played over here. so, who is the man who does know ???? also, has anyone ever seen or know of any demo copies of this ?? Edited July 22, 2007 by soulman1964
Paul R Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 Also I honestly don't remember seeing the Trans pressings around in the mid 70's plus why would they press it in the early 70's when it didn't reach it's huge popularity til 1974? I think you've got your years a bit wrong Pete. It was played 72-73, and pressed in 73 on the yellow Trans Logo. By 74 it was just an oldie. I remember talking to Richard on the way to an early Wigan session, it must have been 74 and he was very enthusiastic about the new version & instrumental. Which turned out to be the "Bob Relf" and Paula Rousell atrosities done by simple simon. Paul
Pete S Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 I think you've got your years a bit wrong Pete. It was played 72-73, and pressed in 73 on the yellow Trans Logo. By 74 it was just an oldie. I remember talking to Richard on the way to an early Wigan session, it must have been 74 and he was very enthusiastic about the new version & instrumental. Which turned out to be the "Bob Relf" and Paula Rousell atrosities done by simple simon. Paul So I'm a year out
Dunc Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 The Yellow ones could have been the demos. Yellow was popular for demo labels at the time. My Trans American is Yellow and has all the same marks as the orange one (did not notice any other difference) The Matrix mark is the same and the sound quality is exceptional. Dunc
Pete S Posted July 22, 2007 Posted July 22, 2007 I think you've got your years a bit wrong Pete. It was played 72-73, and pressed in 73 on the yellow Trans Logo. By 74 it was just an oldie. I remember talking to Richard on the way to an early Wigan session, it must have been 74 and he was very enthusiastic about the new version & instrumental. Which turned out to be the "Bob Relf" and Paula Rousell atrosities done by simple simon. Paul Wonder when the yellow boots came out then?
Guest Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 The Yellow ones could have been the demos. Yellow was popular for demo labels at the time. My Trans American is Yellow and has all the same marks as the orange one (did not notice any other difference) The Matrix mark is the same and the sound quality is exceptional. Dunc Yellow ones are NOT DEMOS, white is the coloured for the DEMOs on the label ref. the earlier releases: example SAM and the SOUL WALKERS on 0107 is a white promo. But I've never seen a Bob Relf white promo. Probably doesn't exist. Yellow was the first RUN with orange the later RUN date unknown. But probably very close or even in 1968. Yellow is far rarer. I have found both colours all over the USA so it was distributed well with the yellow being maybe 1 to 20 in ratio rarity. No I didn't have the 1973 repress done, I think that may have been prompted by Simon S once the record started to go big circa 1973. Incidently, the first copy was alledgedly played by at the Torch after being discovered in the UK, can't remember who the DJ (maybe someone else can add that info) was handed to him for play by one of the UK southern based guys..(again forgot who) the DJ took it off the decks when the "slow down" piece in the middle began, would you believe. That info was passed to me by Steve Frost.. so maybe someone else can tell the full story.
Guest Paul Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 ...You & Paul seem very definite about this 1973 re-press, as a matter of interest, did you get them done? Hello Mr Potts, I was still at school in 1973 but I can't speak for Mr Manship, he might be a lot older than me. Paul Mooney
Guest Paul Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 Hello Paul, Would you mind me asking you how you know this, please. Regards, pottsy Hello, I know this because I have a yellow trans copy made with original stampers, I bought it around 1974 and Bob Relf later confirmed that Aki (pronounced Ah-kee) had pressed it again in the early '70s due to overseas demand. But I do recall another 'Trans' issue that was poor quality and probably wasn't authentic. We (Millbrand Music) obtained the publishing rights to both songs in 2004 and we also control the masters. We have issued licenses to Demon, Sanctuary, MCI, Grapevine etc. We don't have access to any plates, stampers or paperwork regarding pressings etc. but we have the original tapes and I can confirm it was recorded at Ray Charles' studio (RPM International) in Los Angeles, 1968. Sadly, Bob Relf is in poor health and is unable to remember very much these days. Best regards, Paul Mooney www.millbrand.com
Guest Paul Posted July 23, 2007 Posted July 23, 2007 just out of interest, what year was it released on black magic ? Seletadisc issued a version of "Blowing My Mind To Pieces" on Black Magic BM 101 in 1975, licensed from Simon Soussan, but that "Bob Relf" was just an unknown impostor, as was the "Lorraine Chandler" who had "Love You Baby" issued on Black Magic. Coincidentally, Lorraine is also a Millbrand client and we control 50% of "Love You Baby", so maybe it's time we got one of our clients to impersonate Simon Soussan??? Paul Mooney P.S. Soussan also issued an intrumental version of "Blowing My Mind To Pieces" on Soul Galore in 1975.
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