Billy Woods

[slimharpo]

Not sure if this is the right thread but what I want to ask is - Why is this worth so much nearly $6k on Ebay - It's OK but definitely average 70s IMO and I really like 70s sounds. There are much better tracks from that period around for less than a tenner. But maybe I've missed something?

[Pete S]

Good record - but expensive because it truly is mega-rare - 10 copies or less

[Pauldonnelly]

Good record - but expensive because it truly is mega-rare - 10 copies or less

Once upon a time,andy smith resident dj @ the Peterborough Wirrina was on at the Kettering Central Hall with Richard Searling and Dave Evison.Richard only agreed to appear because of an appointment with Anderson the next day, Saturday. I told him I had arranged to go Sat as well "see you there then Smudge" Dickie said

Sat morning we are both in Andersons office Portland Street playing through a few tunes; Vala Regan.......and Billy Woods was put on the turntable, not my cup of tea I said to Richard, he replied if you don't buy anything else today you must take that, so I did @ £8.00, which was a lot of money for a brand new release on a major label (Sussex) for a tune written by a renowned artist (Van McCoy)

Anderson found a box of 25, but he only picked out as many as would fit on his finger approx 10 copies he's not sure, he did return but the rest were gone. Only one other copy has turned up since.

This copy remained in the collection for about 6 weeks or so until Ginger and Eddie appeared at the "Wirrina" all-nighter(skating arena) Ginger asked about the disc, I didn't play it, a trade for Timothy Wilson I must love you on Sky Disc and The Malibus Gee Baby,2 records that where dance floor fillers at the time and £10.00.A few weeks later Poke came rushing up to me at The Demon fort Hall and said I could have anything in his box for that tune.......too late Poke its gone.

Last time it was sold it changed hands for in excess of £5000........bummmer

[Cunnie]

Only one other copy has turned up since.

Didn't Rob Wigley & Tat's turn some up on one of their trips to the States?

Think they both still have a copy.

[Rob Wigley]

I wish Martin!!! got mine off Ted Massey, but at my 40th bash there was a Billy Woods re-union were 4 original copies in the Room !!

The copy Arthur Fenn had was found by Dave Raistrick and was stone mint, came off the label owner or producer at Sussex for $3, but he did have to buy all the other releases as well , not sure wether Arthur still has it or not.

Problem is they wear out ! due to being Styreen

John A told me the copies he had came from a rep, he had 250 in a flat, but his rent was due . when john went back the bloke had been evicted along with the remaining 240 Billy Woods !!!

Was my all-time crack up record and took me years to get it.

When I saw Ted the other week he always asks after the record............

Rob Wigley

[Simon T]

One original was smashed to bits in a fit of peak by I bloke I know a few years ago!

[good angel]

Billy Woods, Let Me Make You Happy,One fantastic tune.

A dozen copies or so were found in 1974 with a promo unearthed 1981.

I think it was last record on this label?

Kev

So wipe those tears,from your eyes.

Edited July 14, 2007 by good angel

[Rob Wigley]

Billy Woods, Let Me Make You Happy,One fanastic tune.

A dozen copies or so were found in 1974 with a promo unearthed 1981.

I think it was last record on this label?

Kev

So wipe those tears,from your eyes.

I think there are more copies of this around ,but no one parts with it, yes last reord before the label went Bang. there are copies in Japan.

[Guest]

Let's not let all this hearsay, and clouded memories to distort the importance of this record.

It was pressed in1971, this was not a new release when first brought into the country circa 1974/5 evey copy I've ever had have been promo's.

Certainly NOT the last record on the label, but one of the first being #213 and the series starting at 200 in1970 was still releasing product in 1975 #638 Bill Withers is the latest I can find in stock.

There were EIGHT to begin with all the Cleethorpes DJs and Richard Searling had the copies, maybe John sold a copy or two to collectors which could lift the quantity a little, but my believe is they all went to DJs. So they received huge turntable and stylus exposure. Remembering in those days, styli were often worn and even endured the odd penny on the cartridge to stop the needle jumping whilst the dancefloors shook and The Pier or Manchester Ritz. So almost all those EIGHT are worn in various degrees from a loud hiss to poor sound quality.

I've certainly in the last three decades only experienced ONE copy that plays to a standard, most would accept into their collection. And have dealt with at least three different copies that were cracked!!

After the "Eight" discovery; Dave Raistrick found a copy in the 80s. Also I was offered a MINT copy from a USA dealer about 5/6 years ago, he never followed through auctioning it with me, so that copy is a mystery but makes 10.

IMHO Billy Woods is an iconic 45, that holds so many dear memories for those who were lucky enough to experience the Northern Soul scene in the 70s.

It's real rarity lies in the condition, a good clean copy that plays perfectly I would value in excess of 5K.

Interestingly a copy I had recently had "the Distributed By Buddah" text crossed out, so maybe it was contractually withdrawn by Buddah, that could explain the bemusing rarity, of of course it could have been done by a collector or dealer wanting to suggest extra rarity.

If the Ebay offering plays well, it seems cheap!

Edited July 14, 2007 by john manship

[Jim G]

Once again JM nails it and couldn't agree more with 'iconic' comment. It was why we travelled hundreds of miles a week, to here rare beauties like this.

[good angel]

Let's not let all this hearsay, and clouded memories to distort the importance of this record.

It was pressed in1971, this was not a new release when first brought into the country circa 1974/5 evey copy I've ever had have been promo's.

Certainly NOT the last record on the label, but one of the first being #213 and the series starting at 200 in1970 was still releasing product in 1975 #638 Bill Withers is the latest I can find in stock.

There were EIGHT to begin with all the Cleethorpes DJs and Richard Searling had the copies, maybe John sold a copy or two to collectors which could lift the quantity a little, but my believe is they all went to DJs. So they received huge turntable and stylus exposure. Remembering in those days, styli were often worn and even endured the odd penny on the cartridge to stop the needle jumping whilst the dancefloors shook and The Pier or Manchester Ritz. So almost all those EIGHT are worn in various degrees from a loud hiss to poor sound quality.

I've certainly in the last three decades only experienced ONE copy that plays to a standard, most would accept into their collection. And have dealt with at least three different copies that were cracked!!

After the "Eight" discovery; Dave Raistrick found a copy in the 80s. Also I was offered a MINT copy from a USA dealer about 5/6 years ago, he never followed through auctioning it with me, so that copy is a mystery but makes 10.

IMHO Billy Woods is an iconic 45, that holds so many dear memories for those who were lucky enough to experience the Northern Soul scene in the 70s.

It's real rarity lies in the condition, a good clean copy that plays perfectly I would value in excess of 5K.

Interestingly a copy I had recently had "the Distributed By Buddah" text crossed out, so maybe it was contractually withdrawn by Buddah, that could explain the bemusing rarity, of of course it could have been done by a collector or dealer wanting to suggest extra rarity.

If the Ebay offering plays well, it seems cheap!

Cheers John,

I bow to your knowledge,was it John Vincent,that used to play it at Samanthas,in the mid 70s?

Kev :wicked:P.S. John I still dont like,Sonny Fishback

Edited July 14, 2007 by good angel

[Rob Wigley]

Let's not let all this hearsay, and clouded memories to distort the importance of this record.

I've ever had have been promo's.

how many have you had then John ? or is it the same copies that eventually go around the scene ??

[Dave Moore]

I think there are more copies of this around ,but no one parts with it, yes last reord before the label went Bang. there are copies in Japan.

And at least one in Florida

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest]

I've ever had have been promo's.

how many have you had then John ? or is it the same copies that eventually go around the scene ??

They are ALL promo's. Over the years I've had maybe 4 or 5 different copies. Only two were in an acceptable condition. The mint one I bought of Soul bowl and DJ'd with. And the one we offered for auction last year..the others had sound deterioration of various degrees.

Yes maybe some were the same copies doing the rounds it's hard to tell, the one which went to Australia in 03 for 3.2k was my ex-Cleethorpes copy, that resurfaced within Mal Palfreyman's collection when I bought it that year, that copy was OK but not great.

A mint unplayed copy today, would most likely be a one-off.

[Mark Bicknell]

Very intersting thread this, just a thought can someone tell me or explain what the point is of wanting to own a copy of such a record that would seem in this instance, with ten or so original copies in circulation, that six or seven copies are it would seem pretty much unplayable or a lot less than perfect, I take the point of the records history and rarity but to pay something like £3.2k or whatever seems a little odd to me. Are records like this perhaps more to do with the kudos of owning something unique rather than actually being able to play it?

I thought that the condition of a record dictated a large part of the value, such as being cracked, hissing, distortion etc. or are there a few records again such as 'Billy Woods' where these rules do not apply? If this is the case, which i'm sure it is on certain desirable records, is it more to do with the 'stamp collecting' ethic rather than the actual musical enjoyment. I'm not having a go at anyone's collecting habbits i'm just curious to how you can explain this?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[good angel]

Mark,

With Billy Woods, the record is rare and a top quality sound,these things dont aways go together and this is the reason that its a top doller record,but this is my humble opinion

Kev

Edited July 15, 2007 by good angel

[Mark Bicknell]

Mark,

With Billy Woods, the record is rare and a top quality sound,these things dont aways go together and this is the reason that its a top doller record,but this my humble opinion

Kev

Kev, I totally take your point on the records rarity.

My question was more towards the valuation based on condition which seems to be paramount in most cases in record collecting circles, my contention in simple terms is what is the point of investing such a huge sum of money on a record if you can't actually play it because of sound distortion, hissing or worse? It has to be then based on the owning it factor rather than being able to play it?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[good angel]

Kev, I totally take your point on the records rarity.

My question was more towards the valuation based on condition which seems to be paramount in most cases in record collecting circles, my contention in simple terms is what is the point of investing such a huge sum of money on a record if you can't actually play it because of sound distortion, hissing or worse? It has to be then based on the owning it factor rather than being able to play it?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Mark,

You have to play it tonight on your show,hissing and scratching, mate.

Kev

[Mark Bicknell]

Mark,

You have to play it tonight on your show,hissing and scratching, mate.

Kev

Not got it Kev, never really been a big fan of the record to tell you the truth not that is my point...lol.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

Yes

Mark, condition is EVERYTHING, all our customers seem to be totally condition conscious. On auction, a MINT unplayed 45 seems to get a 25% premium over even a mint minus or Ex+ copy.

Labels are also extremely important, even BB holes are coming into play whilst considering buying a 45 with collectors now. and rightly so, a mint 45 can only go up in value..MINT is UNPLAYED when you consider most of our desires are between 30 and 45 years old MINT should be held up as much-prized item.

[Ted Massey]

Mark

Talking about bad condition records ,listen to these 2 tracks i bought this of Keb along with J D B it was a one copy known record at the time and had been played by various dj's but i dont think it was this bad when Keb got it, the clicks at the end on Dont fight it were done when someone dropped fag ash on it apparently at Kebs flat

Carios_Stop_over_looking_me.mp3Carios_dont_fight_it.mp3

Carios_Stop_over_looking_me.mp3

Carios_dont_fight_it.mp3

[Soul Shrews]

Yes

Mark, condition is EVERYTHING, all our customers seem to be totally condition conscious. On auction, a MINT unplayed 45 seems to get a 25% premium over even a mint minus or Ex+ copy.

Labels are also extremely important, even BB holes are coming into play whilst considering buying a 45 with collectors now. and rightly so, a mint 45 can only go up in value..MINT is UNPLAYED when you consider most of our desires are between 30 and 45 years old MINT should be held up as much-prized item.

Apologies if this is a daft question but I"ve often wondered.........................if a records unplayed how does anyone know its mint ?

Cheers Paul

[Mark Bicknell]

Yes

Mark, condition is EVERYTHING, all our customers seem to be totally condition conscious. On auction, a MINT unplayed 45 seems to get a 25% premium over even a mint minus or Ex+ copy.

Labels are also extremely important, even BB holes are coming into play whilst considering buying a 45 with collectors now. and rightly so, a mint 45 can only go up in value..MINT is UNPLAYED when you consider most of our desires are between 30 and 45 years old MINT should be held up as much-prized item.

As i thought John but would you get top dollar if you auctioned one of the lesser than good condition 'Billy Woods' copies, that was the point on my question with the kudos associated with such a record? or would it simply sell for 25% less than a clean or better condition copy? or does the must have ethic overshadow this point and go out of the window and more down to 'must own' it no matter what the condition or the price?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Guest]

As i thought John but would you get top dollar if you auctioned one of the lesser than good condition 'Billy Woods' copies, that was the point on my question with the kudos associated with such a record? or would it simply sell for 25% less than a clean or better condition copy? or does the must have ethic overshadow this point and go out of the window and more down to 'must own' it no matter what the condition or the price?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

The one we sold in 03 ex sold for £3.2 an Ex+ copy in 06 attained bids of £7k +

[Guest]

As i thought John but would you get top dollar if you auctioned one of the lesser than good condition 'Billy Woods' copies, that was the point on my question with the kudos associated with such a record? or would it simply sell for 25% less than a clean or better condition copy? or does the must have ethic overshadow this point and go out of the window and more down to 'must own' it no matter what the condition or the price?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

We got £3.2k for the ex copy played witH a little "ping" on the high notes.. we received several bids in excess of 6.5k TOP BID 7K+ for the Ex+ copy that played Mint minus. If that helps. the copies that play with hiss or distortion should be avoided IMHO

[Mark Bicknell]

We got £3.2k for the ex copy played witH a little "ping" on the high notes.. we received several bids in excess of 6.5k TOP BID 7K+ for the Ex+ copy that played Mint minus. If that helps. the copies that play with hiss or distortion should be avoided IMHO

Top answer John, so even with the kudos connected to such a record ............if it's in poor condition it's pretty much worthless? so the same rule applies to all records as you stated...now back to cooking my Sunday roast as we have Mr and Mrs Shard for lunch oh and all his records are mint....lol it's just mine are VG...lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Ady Potts]

we received several bids in excess of 6.5k TOP BID 7K+ for the Ex+ copy that played Mint minus. If that helps.

Hi John,

But wasn't it a case of the owner of the record running the price up against my mate, who was bidding on it? seem to remember it was just those 2 bidding against each other ?

Regards,

pottsy

[soulsalmon]

Top answer John, so even with the kudos connected to such a record ............if it's in poor condition it's pretty much worthless? so the same rule applies to all records as you stated...now back to cooking my Sunday roast as we have Mr and Mrs Shard for lunch oh and all his records are mint....lol it's just mine are VG...lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

SURELY YOU CANT EAT A FULL ROD SHARD IN ONE SITTING

[good angel]

SURELY YOU CANT EAT A FULL ROD SHARD IN ONE SITTING

Marks , a big lad and and has got a big appetite,and has been known to like the odd beer

Kev

[good angel]

Was it John Vincent,that used to play Billy Woods at Samanthas,in the 70s?

Kev

Anyone Know?

[Mark Bicknell]

SURELY YOU CANT EAT A FULL ROD SHARD IN ONE SITTING

Well i managed Mrs Shard but could only manage one of Rods legs....lol very tasty though, just finished the washing up and now off upstairs to play a few whacked records...lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[Mark Bicknell]

Marks , a big lad and and has got a big appetite,and has been known to like the odd beer

Kev

No beer today though...washed Mr Shards leg down with a nice chilled glass of white wine...lol

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[slimharpo]

MMmm all very interesting BUT most people seemed to have commented on the rarity, price not the actual track itself which is honestly ordinary IMO. Not a patch on Chuck Cissel - Dont Tell Me You're Sorry, Vernon Burch - For you for example £5 - £20 sounds

[Mark Bicknell]

MMmm all very interesting BUT most people seemed to have commented on the rarity, price not the actual track itself which is honestly ordinary IMO. Not a patch on Chuck Cissel - Dont Tell Me You're Sorry, Vernon Burch - For you for example £5 - £20 sounds

A very good point, although my comments were based on the condition aspects of the record, it's value depending on the condition rather than the merrit of the tune, for what it's worth if i had £3.2k plus to through at records i'm certain it would go on many others above 'Billy Woods' as it's never hit the spot for me.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

[KevH]

MMmm all very interesting BUT most people seemed to have commented on the rarity, price not the actual track itself which is honestly ordinary IMO. Not a patch on Chuck Cissel - Dont Tell Me You're Sorry, Vernon Burch - For you for example £5 - £20 sounds

surely these two records are of a different genre to BWoods?, like comparing a '66 Jaguar to a '78 Capri?

[slimharpo]

surely these two records are of a different genre to BWoods?, like comparing a '66 Jaguar to a '78 Capri?

I'd say a '78 Capri and a pair of ferrari's is the best comparison

[Ady Potts]

I'd say a '78 Capri and a pair of ferrari's is the best comparison

A Classic ! oh no, that came before the mark 1. Sorry, a joke for Capri lovers

[Ernie Andrews]

So the question is? Is someone shelling out 3k for the rarity value or the song value? Its not rare because as said in first couple of posts Mr Anderson saw 250 and 240 could still be available- I seem to remember a thread afew weeks ago that said we should change the treminology from rare to difficult to obtain!

Forget the reminiscing as I have some horror stories from Global that Im not 100% sure happened so I ask again whats the 3k for the song or the rarity or whatever we now call it!

[Guest]

So the question is? Is someone shelling out 3k for the rarity value or the song value? Its not rare because as said in first couple of posts Mr Anderson saw 250 and 240 could still be available- I seem to remember a thread afew weeks ago that said we should change the treminology from rare to difficult to obtain!

Forget the reminiscing as I have some horror stories from Global that Im not 100% sure happened so I ask again whats the 3k for the song or the rarity or whatever we now call it!

Until the E-bay copy.. 10 known copies, with only two found in the last 32 years, most copies now are worn out and unplayable, think that justifies Billy Woods to boast a RARE tag.

[Steve G]

So the question is? Is someone shelling out 3k for the rarity value or the song value? Its not rare because as said in first couple of posts Mr Anderson saw 250 and 240 could still be available- I seem to remember a thread afew weeks ago that said we should change the treminology from rare to difficult to obtain!

Forget the reminiscing as I have some horror stories from Global that Im not 100% sure happened so I ask again whats the 3k for the song or the rarity or whatever we now call it!

Yeah but those copies were all in the hands of the Engineer who took them because he hadn't been paid. My reckoning is he would have thrown them out about 2 weeks after John met him and their remnants now sit buried deep on Staten Island under a zillion tons of NY rubbish.

[Guest]

Yeah but those copies were all in the hands of the Engineer who took them because he hadn't been paid. My reckoning is he would have thrown them out about 2 weeks after John met him and their remnants now sit buried deep on Staten Island under a zillion tons of NY rubbish.

Steve,

I met one of the most knowledgable collectors in California recently, who told me he had a "round" to do at the weekends, during the late 60s, early seventies of distributors, where he would check out the skips to add to his huge collection.

When I asked him what hell he was doing with a few copies of a soul record that had only seen maybe one of before. He said it was a"skip" find, from Oakland. Obviously still rare cause he rescued a handful from the skip, of perhaps the entire press.

60s, 70s, and 80s vinyl to most USA citizens was junk until recent years. Many label owners threw away their unsold product. e.g. A friend of mine who recently tracked the owner Virginia Blakly - Mojo was told he had skipped all copies 6 years previously.

I feel almost all 60s non-hit soul 45s are rare, especially in good condition. Anyone who questions that should get off a plane in the USA and go hunting for them. I don't know how much experience "Ernie" has of trawling for vinyl the states, but one thing is for certain we only know of two UK people have ever found a Billy Woods on their travels, and i'm certainly not one of them.

After 31years of looking I'm beginning to think it might be rare...

Edited July 25, 2007 by john manship

[Trev Thomas]

So the question is? Is someone shelling out 3k for the rarity value or the song value? Its not rare because as said in first couple of posts Mr Anderson saw 250 and 240 could still be available- I seem to remember a thread afew weeks ago that said we should change the treminology from rare to difficult to obtain!

Forget the reminiscing as I have some horror stories from Global that Im not 100% sure happened so I ask again whats the 3k for the song or the rarity or whatever we now call it!

i think you'll find there shelling out 3k for both the rareity & the song value,

FACT.....billy woods is a shit rare record

FACT....billy wood fills the dancefloor wherever its played

forget the rumours about 250 copies still in america, until they are found billy woods will remain a rare record, simple as that

[Guest]

i think you'll find there shelling out 3k for both the rareity & the song value,

FACT.....billy woods is a shit rare record

FACT....billy wood fills the dancefloor wherever its played

forget the rumours about 250 copies still in america, until they are found billy woods will remain a rare record, simple as that

well said, sir.

[Ernie Andrews]

I work in the risk management business.

I am sure I would only take risks based on empirical evidence not based on perceptive risk.

Buying a record for 3K without the empirical evidence is a huge gamble when the empirical evidence suggests that 240 of them could still be out there!

By the way John I used to work at Global so I know abit or 2 about trawling through records!

Edited July 25, 2007 by Ernie Andrews

[Chalky]

I work in the risk management business.

I am sure I would only take risks based on empirical evidence not based on perceptive risk.

Buying a record for 3K without the empirical evidence is a huge gamble when the empirical evidence suggests that 240 of them could still be out there!

By the way John I used to work at Global so I know abit or 2 about trawling through records!

But isn't buying 60's and 70's rare soul records all about taking a risk? Its a chance you take that some more could come along at anytime of any given rare record. Then again there is also the chance some won't If I wanted a record bad enough and had the money I'd take that risk and if some more copies were discovered then it's tough sh*t.

Besides why leave behind a box of what was and still is a damn rare record, doesn't make sense

[Chalky]

Just re-read the first few posts, one says John found 25 but only took as many as he could get on his finger and another says 250 so which is it Urban myth? could be chinese wispers.........how often does the discovery of one record turn into one 30 count box then a 150 count box

[vaultofsouler]

how often does the discovery of one record turn into one 30 count box then a 150 count box

Ahum.... "lil' peddler" on ebay ....

[Guest]

I work in the risk management business.

I am sure I would only take risks based on empirical evidence not based on perceptive risk.

Buying a record for 3K without the empirical evidence is a huge gamble when the empirical evidence suggests that 240 of them could still be out there!

By the way John I used to work at Global so I know abit or 2 about trawling through records!

"risk management business?"

Geeeze, I'm glad you don't work for me, with your outlook. You wouldn't have ever let me buy anything... "John, there could be more out there, somewhere.....we're all doooooooomed!!!"

[Guest chorleybloke]

Until the E-bay copy.. 10 known copies, with only two found in the last 32 years, most copies now are worn out and unplayable, think that justifies Billy Woods to boast a RARE tag.

Until about 4 months ago there were 2 issues in Australia - one bought by Paul Cridge from John's auction about 3 years ago and another lurking in the back of Steve Trindall's collection which he bought at Cleethorpes in the 70s for 40 quid. Both play well. When I told Steve what his copy was worth he dismissed the idea of selling it out of hand. 4 weeks later he was in possession of over 7 grand.

Cheers

Pete

[Pete S]

There were EIGHT to begin with all the Cleethorpes DJs and Richard Searling had the copies, maybe John sold a copy or two to collectors which could lift the quantity a little, but my believe is they all went to DJs.

Pep and Ian Levine also had copies.

I reckon if we add up all the copies mentioned in this thread there must be 20 definites and about the same again being speculated on.

If the one that turned up on ebay last week was a freak find (the guy had it for years and didn't know he'd got it) there have got to be more copies like that waiting to turn up, but you could wait 30 years for that to happen.