Levine's New Album

[Phild]

Phil - good to see you back mate.

Cheers Pete

[Guest Netspeaky]

I would have bought the Grapevine releases if they were of a type of music that I liked but 70% of them were crossover and modern, I bought all the 'northern' ones...how many copies can they expect to sell of something like "Sex" compared to The Magnetics? Bad bad choices I thought...and thats why there's millions of copies around now.

Pete, you could have used this argument with the old grapevine release, everyone bought "What" but didn't buy "Lester Tipton" which is why there's a price difference reflected against these two releases and against the others that didn't sell too well at the time. I would have presumed that each release of a grapevine old or new was the same number of copies pressed so using this as the argument then in a few years time it will be the "SEX" 45 that will carry a price tag, and not the Magnetics which would have sold more on release.

[Guest Bogue]

I think it's a bit rich saying that there's no way these tracks can be called "Northern Soul". Why exactly?

The breadth of stuff that have been played, through even the short amount of time since I first got on the scene, and called "Northern Soul" is unbelievable. And doesn't IL's Sidney Barnes track (21st century recording I believe?) get raved about in certain quarters.

Northern Soul is only a nametag at best, not really a genre of music in the truest sense of the word.

If "Northern Soul" is meant to be uptempo dance music performed by mainly African American artists then these tracks surely fall in to that category, just as much as the 50's rock n roll that some DJ's play as Northern Soul.

I personally like most soul music and in particular mid to uptempo soul music made in the 1960's, but I do (since the turn of the century anyway) have time for a broader spectrum of music, and some of these tracks are, to my ears anyway, really quite good.

I am sure that this latest album from IL is not aimed at the hardcore of people on this list. If it was made by someone that nobody had heard of would people dismiss the muisc as quickly?

As for who it is aimed at? People who like catchy, uptempo songs performed by really good vocalists, perhaps?

It doesn't matter one iota to the vast majority of the music buying public who produced it, whether the drum is real or synth or anything beyond whether they like it or not. A lot of people obviously do like this, and I'm sure a lot of people will buy it.

Phil

Why didn't he just call it "Catchy, uptempo songs by really good vocalists 2007" then ? Wouldn't have had none of this hassel

Edited July 28, 2007 by Bogue

[Guest Paul]

I would have bought the Grapevine releases if they were of a type of music that I liked but 70% of them were crossover and modern, I bought all the 'northern' ones...how many copies can they expect to sell of something like "Sex" compared to The Magnetics? Bad bad choices I thought...and thats why there's millions of copies around now.

Hello Pete,

Remember that a "bad choice" for one man is a good choice for another. Grapevine wasn't just a 'northern soul' label so many 45s weren't aimed at 'northern soul' fans.

For example, the Jimmy Ruffin 7" on Soul Junction wasn't 'northern soul' and it easily outsold all Grapevine singles.

The 45s I've issued on Selecta and Shotgun so far aren't aimed at 'northern soul' fans and they're selling better than most other 45s at the moment - including the Grapevine 'northern soul' 45s.

To me it's all just soul music. Some things may appeal to 'northern' fans and others won't.

Paul Mooney

[Pete S]

Hello Pete,

Remember that a "bad choice" for one man is a good choice for another. Grapevine wasn't just a 'northern soul' label so many 45s weren't aimed at 'northern soul' fans.

For example, the Jimmy Ruffin 7" on Soul Junction wasn't 'northern soul' and it easily outsold all Grapevine singles.

The 45s I've issued on Selecta and Shotgun so far aren't aimed at 'northern soul' fans and they're selling better than most other 45s at the moment - including the Grapevine 'northern soul' 45s.

To me it's all just soul music. Some things may appeal to 'northern' fans and others won't.

Paul Mooney

Paul I was just pointing out why I personally didn't buy all of them that's all. Not saying they are bad records, but thats why I don't have the set of all releases...because I don't like the music!

[Guest Paul]

Paul I was just pointing out why I personally didn't buy all of them that's all. Not saying they are bad records, but thats why I don't have the set of all releases...because I don't like the music!

Well at least it saved you some money! The A&R department was obviously considering your financial situation when they decided what to release.

Paul Mooney

[Chris L]

Why didn't he just call it "Catchy, uptempo songs by really good vocalists 2007" then ? Wouldn't have had none of this hassel

He could have called it anything, he, you, me, God & the world liked but the guy's a target

for the cheap shot goons. There is no such thing as good or bad music, there is only music,

you either like it or you don't. The people who slag this guy off are actually no better than Ian,

probbaly no worse but certainly no better.

Sidney Barnes - Standing on solid ground, like it very much, Rocq-E-Harrell, love it to death,

some of the others tin pan alley to my ears.

[Guest Bogue]

He could have called it anything, he, you, me, God & the world liked but the guy's a target

for the cheap shot goons. There is no such thing as good or bad music, there is only music,

you either like it or you don't. The people who slag this guy off are actually no better than Ian,

probbaly no worse but certainly no better.

Sidney Barnes - Standing on solid ground, like it very much, Rocq-E-Harrell, love it to death,

some of the others tin pan alley to my ears.

That's fair enough Chris, & i go along with the good music or bad music line, but if that is the case why is he so insistant in labeling everything he does as "Northern Soul" then ? Why has that tag always got to be applied to his productions ? Marketing ploy ?

If he is so insistant that it "is" Northern Soul all the time then i think then it's fair to accept that he is going to get some flak from us "cheap shot goons" who think that it isn't !!

I have said it before, i don't know the bloke personaly & have nothing but respect for what he has achieved in life,far much more than me !, but i can't understand his preoccupation of trying to convince everyone that the stuff he puts out is Northern Soul ? It has become almost like a crusade !

I don't know, maybe it's an acceptance hang up ? But i would have thought he would have achieved all the acceptance he needed 10 fold in his first association with the scene.

[Chris L]

That's fair enough Chris, & i go along with the good music or bad music line, but if that is the case why is he so insistant in labeling everything he does as "Northern Soul" then ? Why has that tag always got to be applied to his productions ? Marketing ploy ?

If he is so insistant that it "is" Northern Soul all the time then i think then it's fair to accept that he is going to get some flak from us "cheap shot goons" who think that it isn't !!

I have said it before, i don't know the bloke personaly & have nothing but respect for what he has achieved in life,far much more than me !, but i can't understand his preoccupation of trying to convince everyone that the stuff he puts out is Northern Soul ? It has become almost like a crusade !

I don't know, maybe it's an acceptance hang up ? But i would have thought he would have achieved all the acceptance he needed 10 fold in his first association with the scene.

Hhmmm............I'm not Ian so I can't reply for him however Northern Soul is a genre,or perhaps really a sub-genre, dance music, happy go lucky, foot tapping, fill that dance-floor, bend those maple sprung boards kinda thing.

I heard a DJ play Jimmy Conwell - The trouble with girls, for my part I wouldn't class this as anywhere near Northern Soul. I have heard some real doubtful music, more akin to rock & roll, cha-cha, country and western being pawned off as Northern Soul. Thing is the people who make these claims of a "great Northern (rare) Soul sound, with the majority of NS fans screwing up their faces up as if they were sucking lemons are never subjected to the abuse that Ian gets. Let's not be fooled, the criticisms are purely a below the belt, cheap, nasty way of getting a laugh (hey!! let's call him a Twat!!)

I started going to the Blackpool Mecca in 1971, we played:

This is the house - First Choice

Both end against the middle - Jackie Moore

Catch me I'm falling - Esther Phillips (this was really a big sound)

Keep on keeping on - N F Porter

'Bout Love - Clydie King

These were all current sounds you could buy at Record Corner (and we did)

If Ian, wrote, produced, financed and distributed some soul music recorded in 2007, I guess it's his right to call it what he likes. I have listened to some it and it is good (to my ears) and wouldn't be alien to a NS venue, certainly more so than Troy Dodds - Try my love.

Ian can never "win" any argument on this forum, he shouldn't try, I have been to venues when Standing on solid ground got played, they danced, no vicious moves to knife the DJ playing it, not on any occasion. If you like it, buy it, if you don't, ignore it, don't spill this valuable time we all have on this planet on negative garbage.

[Guest Bogue]

Hhmmm............I'm not Ian so I can't reply for him however Northern Soul is a genre,or perhaps really a sub-genre, dance music, happy go lucky, foot tapping, fill that dance-floor, bend those maple sprung boards kinda thing.

I heard a DJ play Jimmy Conwell - The trouble with girls, for my part I wouldn't class this as anywhere near Northern Soul. I have heard some real doubtful music, more akin to rock & roll, cha-cha, country and western being pawned off as Northern Soul. Thing is the people who make these claims of a "great Northern (rare) Soul sound, with the majority of NS fans screwing up their faces up as if they were sucking lemons are never subjected to the abuse that Ian gets. Let's not be fooled, the criticisms are purely a below the belt, cheap, nasty way of getting a laugh (hey!! let's call him a Twat!!)

I started going to the Blackpool Mecca in 1971, we played:

This is the house - First Choice

Both end against the middle - Jackie Moore

Catch me I'm falling - Esther Phillips (this was really a big sound)

Keep on keeping on - N F Porter

'Bout Love - Clydie King

These were all current sounds you could buy at Record Corner (and we did)

If Ian, wrote, produced, financed and distributed some soul music recorded in 2007, I guess it's his right to call it what he likes. I have listened to some it and it is good (to my ears) and wouldn't be alien to a NS venue, certainly more so than Troy Dodds - Try my love.

Ian can never "win" any argument on this forum, he shouldn't try, I have been to venues when Standing on solid ground got played, they danced, no vicious moves to knife the DJ playing it, not on any occasion. If you like it, buy it, if you don't, ignore it, don't spill this valuable time we all have on this planet on negative garbage.

Chris, this is a music forum where 'in the main' music is discussed. Ian Levine has put out an album called "Northern Soul 2007", & a thread was started to discuss what peoples opinion was of that music.

If you look back through the 4 pages of the thread, that is precisley what it has been about ! Nobody has called him a twat or had a go at other personal things about him.

In fact the most derogatory comments i would say were the ones coming from him re his feelings about the people who use this site ! So i think you are twisting things a little.

You are obviously a friend, & fair play to you, a good one for standing up & speaking up for him. But just as people like you have the right to say that you like what you hear, people like me, & what appears to be the majority on here, have the right to say that we don't like what we hear, & it has nothing to do with judging or disliking Ian Levine the person. If you look back through the thread most people have started with, or used at some point, the words that they have nothing but respect for his past or his tenacity "But" etc etc.

As far as what do we call Northern Soul ? that's the age old question ! When you mention stuff that is akin to rock & roll, cha cha, country, i think you are talking about R&B, that's why they call it "R&B" just like the Modernists now refer to their stuff as "Modern" because they have conceded that they are never going to convince us that it is "Northern Soul"

I like most others don't know what the answer to that eternal question is,it's just that unknown magic that can only be found "mainly" in 60's uptempo soul music. All i can say is that personaly i didn't hear it in the four tracks that we were directed to on I L's blog sadly.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Bogue

[Guest mel brat]

That's fair enough Chris, & i go along with the good music or bad music line, but if that is the case why is he so insistant in labeling everything he does as "Northern Soul" then ? Why has that tag always got to be applied to his productions ? Marketing ploy ?

If he is so insistant that it "is" Northern Soul all the time then i think then it's fair to accept that he is going to get some flak from us "cheap shot goons" who think that it isn't !! ... i can't understand his preoccupation of trying to convince everyone that the stuff he puts out is Northern Soul..."

Edited July 31, 2007 by mel brat

[Steve G]

Whatever this music is, it's NOT northern soul, in the same way as M Peoples LP "Northern soul" wasn't northern soul.

[Phild]

Whatever this music is, it's NOT northern soul, in the same way as M Peoples LP "Northern soul" wasn't northern soul.

I really must disagree with this. This album cannot possibly be compared to M People.

Northern Soul music is defined by the "style" of the music. M People entitled their album as a clever play on words. they were certainly from the north and their music was certainly contemporary soul music.

At the roots of Northern Soul is the 4 x 4 beat typified by Motown and perfected in records like the Supremes "Love Is Like An Itching..." that is pure Northern Soul but their "Baby Love" isn't.

Like it or not, the Javells "Goodbye Nothing To say" is Northern Soul, "Right Back Where We Started From" is Northern Soul, Gary Lewis & The Playboys is Northern Soul. It may not be rare, obscure collectable but the beat is pure Northern Soul. That's why such records filled dancefloors.

It is only recently (and then exceptions are made when certain members of the Soul Police allow) that it has been felt that Northern Soul means OLD. It doesn't. Right through this scene from its very inception new release records have been played alongside old classics. The sound and the beat makes it Northern Soul NOT the age of the recording, or whether it was recorded in a professional studio or somebody's shed. That's all irrelevant.

In my opinion people have got themselves all flustered over these particular recordings simply because of the name Levine being attached to them. The very mention of Levine gets people worked up. Look at the number of postings and views on every topic he's mentioned in - I rest my case. Look at the example of the, now infamous, Four Vandals record. When it was percieved to be 30 odd years old it was Northern Soul. Once Levine's involvement was revealed it was all of a sudden crap.

What's the difference between these recordings being called Northern Soul and his recordings of 30 plus years ago (Evelyn Thomas, Exciters, James Wells et al) being tagged as Northern Soul as new releases? I can't see any difference at all.

I 've listened to all the tracks on the net from this album that are on the net now and I would say that yes, they are Northern Soul. There are reminiscences of Northern tracks we all know in most of them. But that's only to be expected, that's where the guy drew all his influences from. And as for synthesizers? I didn't hear a single one. Samples maybe, but samples of real instruments played by real musicians. But that's totally different to a synthesizer. And there is definitely not a drum machine to be heard anywhere.

As far as I'm concerned if you don't like it, don't buy it. I for one will buy a copy when it comes out, and I'm sure many others will. And who knows, maybe one day some of these recordings will be played at a Northern Soul venue. I for one don't see why not.

That's my two pennorth anyway.

Phil

[Phild]

I think that gets to the real crux of the matter. It's not whether or not we actually like the music Ian Levine has produced in itself, it's whether Ian has the God given RIGHT to call what he has done "Northern Soul", when (as far as I know) the term is one decided collectively, NOT "imposed from above", whether by Ian Levine or anyone else.

Who are the people who decide collectively? A small bunch of collectors or the general public? What gives someone the right to be able to join the decison making collective?

Because many of us are indeed "fifty something" (yeah, like Ian Levine is Peter Pan!) some of us remember the times when UK record companies, in their attempts to impose some of their more dodgy tailor-mades off as "genuine Northern Soul" onto both us and the pop-buying public alike, debased and diluted the scene and did untold damage to both it's Soul credibility and genuine sense of unity.

And some of those who were brought onto the scene by these crass marketing attempts are now stalwarts of the scene are they not?

Indeed, if the UK Rare Soul scene has any unique and redeeming feature at all it is that it remains a "collective" endeavour fiercely resistant to undue influence from the record company's marketing men, and yes it can occasionally appear insular because of it. Better that than falling prey to the cynical manipulations of the music industry however, because we all know what a disaster that can be for musical quality - which is exactly why the Northern Scene "opted out" of mainstream pop in the first place!

And that's the crux of it. You're confusing the RARE soul scene with the NORTHERN soul scene. The RARE soul scene is mostly about chin stroking collectors (I should know I'm one of 'em), and the NORTHERN scene was always about the music, the music and nothing but the music. The Northern and Rare soul scenes have been uncomfortable bedfellows for many a decade.

The Northen Soul scene is about people going out and listening and dancing to the music that they like, and maybe buy a few tunes evrey now and then and don't care if it's on bootleg, pressing or CD or MP3. Don't care who sings it, produces it oer whatever. They just care if they like it.

Phil

[Steve G]

Phil

We shall agree to disagree, and for the record 4 Vandals, Veneicia WIlson etc were never classed as northern soul round these 'ear parts of the world. Always suspect records from the first time we heard them.

To my mind northern soul is essentially neglected music from black America, with a beat. It is music that was made with feeling, music that was lost from the mainstream, despite at the time of it's inception being produced as contemporary music; it's music with vibrancy, energy and enough enthusiasm to launch a hot air balloon, and which now has character and a certain mystery around it......

And that's a million miles from some artificial production made in a studio in West London in 2007. No disrespect to dear old Ian etc. but this is just tailor made cash in stuff which is not authentic or original in the slightest. I'd rather listen to his work with Kim Wilde/Take That etc. than this - at least it was original.

If you really think these productions are northern soul, then I am afraid you've lost the plot somewhat. ...and if that makes me a member of the "Soul Police" as you call it then fine, I can live with that.

[Phild]

Phil

We shall agree to disagree, and for the record 4 Vandals, Veneicia WIlson etc were never classed as northern soul round these 'ear parts of the world. Always suspect records from the first time we heard them.

To my mind northern soul is essentially neglected music from black America, with a beat. It is music that was made with feeling, music that was lost from the mainstream, despite at the time of it's inception being produced as contemporary music; it's music with vibrancy, energy and enough enthusiasm to launch a hot air balloon, and which now has character and a certain mystery around it......

And that's a million miles from some artificial production made in a studio in West London in 2007. No disrespect to dear old Ian etc. but this is just tailor made cash in stuff which is not authentic or original in the slightest. I'd rather listen to his work with Kim Wilde/Take That etc. than this - at least it was original.

If you really think these productions are northern soul, then I am afraid you've lost the plot somewhat. ...and if that makes me a member of the "Soul Police" as you call it then fine, I can live with that.

As I have stated earlier it depends what your definition of Northern Soul is.

As you have stated your definition is "to your mind" your definition. It's maybe not shared by the majority.

Your definition stated in your first paragraph has a certain nostalgia about it, but it's far removed from the reality. Practically all of the records that you no doubt love and class as Northern Soul were made with one aim in mind - to sell records and therefore make money. I am not saying that they were not made with vibrancy, energy and enthusuasm - they undoubtedly were. But that vibrancy energy and enthusiasm was because they had, in some cases, dreams of stardom but in a lot of cases they just wanted to sell records and make a little money. Do you think that the people who made these records had the amibition of selling no records only to be looked upon findle 40 years later by a load of 30-60 year olds in the UK? I'm sure they enjoy the attention now, of course they do. It must be great being given respect for something you did 40 years ago that failed,. but I thinkm given the choice they would have much rather benn the next Marvin or Diana, than go back to the factory or wherever. What is the difference between a tailor-made cash-in Motown soundalike made in 1967 and a 2007 recording inspired by the Northern Soul scene? What's the difference then between that and a tailor-made soul record made in the 1970's to cash-in on the burgeoning Northern Soul scene?

The Northern Soul scene, although popular all over the globe these days, could only ever have been invented in Britain where we celebrate failure

Also, I think you look back upon the roots of some of these records with rose tinted glasses. "music that was lost from the mainstream" - what on earth does that mean? It means it didn't sell enough records. NOT that they didn't WANT to sell millions of copies. Anyway some off the records played on the scene sold very, very healthy numbers, so that puts paid to that part of the definition.

Of course Ian Levine wants to make money out of his recordings (he'd be a fool if he didn't), but then so has every record producer who's ever made a record.

And you say that you prefer Levine's work with Take That? No Northern Soul inspiration on any of those recordings now was there? In fact if you take that (no pun intended) a step further. How would you have felt if Take That had had a massive Levine produced hit with a reworking of a Northern Soul Classic? Or if their album had benn called Northernsoul 1994?

I think, with respect, that you like many others are confusing the Northern Soul scene with the Rare Soul collecting scene.

They are not the same.

Phil

[Guest mel brat]

"Who are the people who decide collectively? A small bunch of collectors or the general public? What gives someone the right to be able to join the decison making collective?"

Who said anything about "collectors"? The various developments on the scene have historically been "decided" by those with an active involvement in it via. the voicing of views in magazines and on forums such as this. It's called "democracy". However, anyone who has been involved for any length of time will know that the Northern scene has evolved piecemeal, and in convoluted ways according to events, and anyone who attempts to overly control and influence it usually fails. (refer the Tony Cummings controversy in 'Black Music' C.1974/5.)

"...and some of those who were brought onto the scene by these crass marketing attempts are now stalwarts of the scene are they not?..

Perhaps they are, but it was a close run thing back in 1974/5 whether the scene would survive in any shape or form! Besides, where are the many OTHER thousands of pop fans who bought and proudly wore the mass produced badges back then? Are you really suggesting that the Northern Scene would have evolved just as well if left to those same marketing men who gave us Wigan's Ovation and "Footsie" etc.? Is that the kind of "Soul" scene you would prefer, one aimed principally at the UK pop charts and subsequently ignoring the initial Soul fans who supported it and made it happen? Either the Northern scene is based on Soul music or it isn't. If not, then what has made it any different to the general pop scene over these many years?

"...The Northern and Rare soul scenes have been uncomfortable bedfellows for many a decade..."

I'm sorry, but this is a truly ill informed statement. Everyone knows that the Northern Scene directly evolved from the "rare soul" scene in the first place! It is what differentiates "Northern Soul" with the "Rhythm & Soul" scene of the 60's clubs. (Whether or not this development was good or bad is beside the point).

The earliest Blackpool Mecca discos (beginning in 1971) in fact, had posters proclaiming it as a "RARE SOUL" event! (see the 'Dave Godin in Blackpool' article in Blues & Soul with a photo featuring none other than Ian Levine if you doubt this statement!) The desire to hear "rarer Soul" than could be heard at the local disco was the driving force that persuaded people to travel around the country and elevated this policy. (That however was then, and I concede that the same factors do not neccessarily apply today)

"The Northern Soul scene is about people going out and listening and dancing to the music that they like, and maybe buy a few tunes evrey now and then and don't care if it's on bootleg, pressing or CD or MP3. Don't care who sings it, produces it oer whatever. They just care if they like it...."

Yes, maybe some people who attend Northern Soul discos think this way, but then so do most NON-SOUL disco goers! For your information, there has always been controversy about bootlegging as it was (and is) seen to damage the integrity of the SCENE ITSELF (and not because it reduces the value of original records for collectors)

You go on to criticise my comments about the Northern Soul scene being a "collective endeavour", then assert "...what the Northern Scene is about" ! So by the same token, whom are you speaking for? and who elected you to speak for them?

"Knowing who sings and produces" the songs that keep the scene ticking over has always been an important part of finding similar sides/songs, and hence ensuring it's survival don't you think? Where do you think past record finds came from, Santa Claus? It sure wasn't courteousy of the marketing men, as many top tunes were "discovered" on the official B-Side of the releases "promoted" by the record companies! Eula Cooper, Yum Yums etc. are prime examples.

Finally, do not mistake me for someone who is ever against NEW recordings being played on the Soul scene, "Northern" or otherwise. I believe the many arguments I have had on here over this very point are well known by now(!) I am merely pointing out the simple fact that it is not for anyone to dictate what new records MUST qualify as "Northern". New Tavares records were embraced while "Northern Soul Dancer" by Biddu was ignored in favour of the flip side! It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if Levine's current or past productions got played at events that I attended. I've danced to many of Ian's recordings in the past and may do so again. BUT ONLY IF I FEEL INCLINED TO THE MUSIC!

Edited July 31, 2007 by mel brat

[Phild]

It's called "democracy". However, anyone who has been involved for any length of time will know that the Northern scene has evolved piecemeal, and in convoluted ways according to events, and anyone who attempts to overly control and influence it usually fails. (refer the Tony Cummings controversy in 'Black Music' C.1974/5.)

But if democracy could ever change anything then it would be outlawed Anyway, this thread isn't about anyone trying to control the scene it's about a new CD that's coming out isn't it? But anyway it's obvious that I'm not really qualified to comment because I haven't been on the scene long enough.

Perhaps they are, but it was a close run thing back in 1974/5 whether the scene would survive in any shape or form! Besides, where are the many OTHER thousands of pop fans who bought and proudly wore the mass produced badges back then?

They're proabaly the ones logging onto You Tube in their 1000's and watching Levine's videos, because they still associate themselves with the term Northern Soul and the music and the beat reminds them of the stuff they were into when they were young.

Are you really suggesting that the Northern Scene would have evolved just as well if left to those same marketing men who gave us Wigan's Ovation and "Footsie" etc.? Is that the kind of "Soul" scene you would prefer, one aimed principally at the UK pop charts and subsequently ignoring the initial Soul fans who supported it and made it happen?

A lot of the Northern Scene promoters welcomed those marketing men with open arms. The scene didn't kick out the marketing men, the marketing men walked away when the buzz was over.

Either the Northern scene is based on Soul music or it isn't. If not, then what has made it any different to the general pop scene over these many years?

The Northern Soul scene is based largely but not exclusively on Soul music. It is different to the general pop scene in that the pop scene is always having an influx of new sounds which change with the fashions and tatstes of the music buying public. The Northern Soul scene is largely just like any other nostalgia based scene these days, but with a better soundtrack

"...The Northern and Rare soul scenes have been uncomfortable bedfellows for many a decade..."

I'm sorry, but this is a truly ill informed statement. Everyone knows that the Northern Scene directly evolved from the "rare soul" scene in the first place! It is what differentiates "Northern Soul" with the "Rhythm & Soul" scene of the 60's clubs. (Whether or not this development was good or bad is beside the point).

The earliest Blackpool Mecca discos (beginning in 1971) in fact, had posters proclaiming it as a "RARE SOUL" event! (see the 'Dave Godin in Blackpool' article in Blues & Soul with a photo featuring none other than Ian Levine if you doubt this statement!) The desire to hear "rarer Soul" than could be heard at the local disco was the driving force that persuaded people to travel around the country and elevated this policy. (That however was then, and I concede that the same factors do not neccessarily apply today)

Yes that was then, and now is very different. The Northern Soul,scene (as opposed to the rare soul scene) is as I described in an earlier post.

"The Northern Soul scene is about people going out and listening and dancing to the music that they like, and maybe buy a few tunes evrey now and then and don't care if it's on bootleg, pressing or CD or MP3. Don't care who sings it, produces it oer whatever. They just care if they like it...."

Yes, maybe some people who attend Northern Soul discos think this way, but then so do most NON-SOUL disco goers! For your information, there has always been controversy about bootlegging as it was (and is) seen to damage the integrity of the SCENE ITSELF (and not because it reduces the value of original records for collectors)

That was a long time ago. The scene really split into Rare Soul and Northern Soul scenes about 25 years ago. The Northern Soul scene has remained largely nostalgic with the odd records percolating through from the Rare Soul scene. The number of people at soul nights up and down the land who truly care about the format the music is played on are in the minority. I am amongst the minority i always have been, but I admit that I am in a minority. That was one of the main reasons why I stopped going out and about - i was too demoralised. And of course bootlegging, reissues etc are big business. Some of the scene's top DJ's and promoters are, were and evermore shall be involved in it. Some of the most vocal critics are the biggest culprits. Myself and Steve Croft (with others who shall remain nameless) bootlegged a few singles when were running the Bradford Queens Hall, Leeds Astoria and Hinckley Leisure Centre All-Niters. It's always been rife. And why is that? Because a whole load of people on the scene want to have the tune irrespective of the format it's on. Irrespective of whether it's legal or whatever.

You go on to criticise my comments about the Northern Soul scene being a "collective endeavour", then assert "...what the Northern Scene is about" ! So by the same token, whom are you speaking for? and who elected you to speak for them?

I speak only for myself, and I elected myself to speak for myself - I won by a unanimous decision. But you have quite rightly already asserted that I have no right to comment, so I'll try to restrain myself.

Besides, "knowing who sings and produces" the songs that keep the scene ticking over have always been an important part of finding similar sides/songs, and hence ensuring it's survival don't you think? Where do you think past record finds came from, Santa Claus? It sure wasn't courteousy of the marketing men, as many top tunes were "discovered" on the official B-Side of the releases "promoted" by the record companies! Eula Cooper, Yum Yums etc. are prime examples.

I agree 100%. The enthusiasm of people in discovering sounds has always been the lifeblood of the scene. I myself have made in excess of 20 trips to the USA looking for records. But that doesn't change the fact that Ian Levine's new music is entitled to be called Northern Soul. Not "Rare" soul granted. But Northern soul is a genre, a beat a feeling. Not a decade an origin or this record producer and not that one.

Finally, do not mistake me for someone who is ever against NEW records being played on the Soul scene, "Northern" or otherwise. I believe the many arguments I have had on here over this very point are well known by now(!) I am simply pointing out the simple fact that it is not for anyone to dictate what new records MUST qualify as "Northern". New Tavares records were embraced while "Northern Soul Dancer" by Biddu was ignored in favour of the flip side! It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if Levine's current or past productions got played at events that I attended. I've danced to many of Ian's recordings in the past and may do so again. BUT ONLY IF I FEEL LIKE IT!

You should only ever dance to records you feel like dancing to. But you say it's not for anyone to dictate what new records will qualify as Northern Soul. I don't see anybody doing that. It's also not for anyone to dictate what records are NOT Northern Soul. The beat and the feet on the dancefloor decide that. But I don't think any County & Western records should ever be played at a Northern do.

[Phild]

A prime illustration of the difference between a simply NORTHERN soul fan and a Northern and Rare Soul fan and collector.

My wife -- Northern Soul fan through & through. Loves to dance, loves the music etc. I'm in the process of sorting through my records to sell. Doubles, triples etc etc. Anywaty I'm playing Lester Tipton on La Beat and my missus says that's a bit crackly are you getting rid of that one. Is it worth anything, would anyb ody buy it? I'm like people would bite my hand off for it. So she says well you should sell it then because mine's in much better condition and it plays with no noise at all. I tell her but yours is on Grapevine. And she says so what? It sounds much better than yours and the label looks much nicer.

Quad Erat Demonstrandum

Phil

[Dave Moore]

A prime illustration of the difference between a simply NORTHERN soul fan and a Northern and Rare Soul fan and collector.

My wife -- Northern Soul fan through & through. Loves to dance, loves the music etc. I'm in the process of sorting through my records to sell. Doubles, triples etc etc. Anywaty I'm playing Lester Tipton on La Beat and my missus says that's a bit crackly are you getting rid of that one. Is it worth anything, would anyb ody buy it? I'm like people would bite my hand off for it. So she says well you should sell it then because mine's in much better condition and it plays with no noise at all. I tell her but yours is on Grapevine. And she says so what? It sounds much better than yours and the label looks much nicer.

Quad Erat Demonstrandum

Phil

Hey Phil,

Good to see you back and at it Matey. You make some valid points (as does MelBratt and Steve G). Good to see a discussion without the oldies v newies bias ruining it.

Kim and Lester Tipton - God bless her cotton socks! Had many a similar comment from Bev bless her!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest mel brat]

"But that doesn't change the fact that Ian Levine's new music is entitled to be called Northern Soul. Not "Rare" soul granted. But Northern soul is a genre, a beat a feeling..."

I still feel that Ian Levine's new music is entitled to be called Northern Soul IF the larger Northern Scene accepts it as such, but NOT necessarily just because it has been promoted as "Northern Soul" by Ian Levine himself. Surely that's reasonable? I recognise there is a certain distrust and suspicion among some that the whole concept of Ian's project is something of a marketing ploy, and who can blame them given past events? Otherwise I welcome anyone's involvement in creating dance music to sustain a future club scene. Really!

[Guest Bogue]

I really must disagree with this. This album cannot possibly be compared to M People.

Northern Soul music is defined by the "style" of the music. M People entitled their album as a clever play on words. they were certainly from the north and their music was certainly contemporary soul music.

At the roots of Northern Soul is the 4 x 4 beat typified by Motown and perfected in records like the Supremes "Love Is Like An Itching..." that is pure Northern Soul but their "Baby Love" isn't.

Like it or not, the Javells "Goodbye Nothing To say" is Northern Soul, "Right Back Where We Started From" is Northern Soul, Gary Lewis & The Playboys is Northern Soul. It may not be rare, obscure collectable but the beat is pure Northern Soul. That's why such records filled dancefloors.

But like Mel has been saying, they were only banded as Northern Soul "Monsters" "after" they became dance floor fillers at the clubs, nobody said "these are Northern Soul records so play them", or the like.

It is only recently (and then exceptions are made when certain members of the Soul Police allow) that it has been felt that Northern Soul means OLD. It doesn't. Right through this scene from its very inception new release records have been played alongside old classics. The sound and the beat makes it Northern Soul NOT the age of the recording, or whether it was recorded in a professional studio or somebody's shed. That's all irrelevant.

Fair enough, but still find fun in the oldies /newies debate But again the same thing applies whatever the age, they become classics because people like them & so they get played.

In my opinion people have got themselves all flustered over these particular recordings simply because of the name Levine being attached to them. The very mention of Levine gets people worked up. Look at the number of postings and views on every topic he's mentioned in - I rest my case. Look at the example of the, now infamous, Four Vandals record. When it was percieved to be 30 odd years old it was Northern Soul. Once Levine's involvement was revealed it was all of a sudden crap.

Disagree Phil, as i said in an earlier post, people are just commenting on the music.

& as for the now infamous Four Vandals record, i think that is more likely what IL & friends would like us to believe. I remember a friend playing it to me & my reaction was "It's not terrible, but it dosen't sound right somehow ? sounds like it was made yesterday"

& i have yet to meet anyone, then or now who has not said something similar.

& well we are on about the Four Vandals track, it again brings up this question of apeing other peoples work. Play the start of 'George Smith' pitched up slightly & then play the start of the 'Four Vandels' (when the singing starts) Might just be my ears, but it sounds awfuly similar to me.

What's the difference between these recordings being called Northern Soul and his recordings of 30 plus years ago (Evelyn Thomas, Exciters, James Wells et al) being tagged as Northern Soul as new releases? I can't see any difference at all.

I bought Evelyn Thomas & the Exciters, in fact i still have them & like them in a nostalgic way. But i bought those tunes before i had even heard of Northern Soul, along with things like 'Young Hearts Run Free', 'What A difference a day makes' & stuff by the Trammps, the O'Jays, the Four Seasons. In short, to me they were just club disco/soul tunes, things that were popular at the youth club.

& if you are thinking of picking me up on release dates, they are just examples of stuff i can remember buying around that time

I 've listened to all the tracks on the net from this album that are on the net now and I would say that yes, they are Northern Soul. There are reminiscences of Northern tracks we all know in most of them. But that's only to be expected, that's where the guy drew all his influences from. And as for synthesizers? I didn't hear a single one. Samples maybe, but samples of real instruments played by real musicians. But that's totally different to a synthesizer. And there is definitely not a drum machine to be heard anywhere.

I'm sorry Phil but if that is the case i applaud that drummer because he does a mega impression of a drum machine loop !

As far as I'm concerned if you don't like it, don't buy it. I for one will buy a copy when it comes out, and I'm sure many others will. And who knows, maybe one day some of these recordings will be played at a Northern Soul venue. I for one don't see why not.

That's my two pennorth anyway.

Phil

Well good luck to you Phil, if you like it that's all that really matters Just in the same way as we that don't won't buy it.

& i would hope you understand our opinions are based on what we have heard & nothing else, & we have just as much right to it as those who disagree with us.

It just seems to me that where IL is concerened if you say you don't like what he has made his fans imediatley cry out "personal attack"

Edited August 1, 2007 by Bogue

[Guest Bogue]

"Who are the people who decide collectively? A small bunch of collectors or the general public? What gives someone the right to be able to join the decison making collective?"

Who said anything about "collectors"? The various developments on the scene have historically been "decided" by those with an active involvement in it via. the voicing of views in magazines and on forums such as this. It's called "democracy". However, anyone who has been involved for any length of time will know that the Northern scene has evolved piecemeal, and in convoluted ways according to events, and anyone who attempts to overly control and influence it usually fails. (refer the Tony Cummings controversy in 'Black Music' C.1974/5.)

"...and some of those who were brought onto the scene by these crass marketing attempts are now stalwarts of the scene are they not?..

Perhaps they are, but it was a close run thing back in 1974/5 whether the scene would survive in any shape or form! Besides, where are the many OTHER thousands of pop fans who bought and proudly wore the mass produced badges back then? Are you really suggesting that the Northern Scene would have evolved just as well if left to those same marketing men who gave us Wigan's Ovation and "Footsie" etc.? Is that the kind of "Soul" scene you would prefer, one aimed principally at the UK pop charts and subsequently ignoring the initial Soul fans who supported it and made it happen? Either the Northern scene is based on Soul music or it isn't. If not, then what has made it any different to the general pop scene over these many years?

"...The Northern and Rare soul scenes have been uncomfortable bedfellows for many a decade..."

I'm sorry, but this is a truly ill informed statement. Everyone knows that the Northern Scene directly evolved from the "rare soul" scene in the first place! It is what differentiates "Northern Soul" with the "Rhythm & Soul" scene of the 60's clubs. (Whether or not this development was good or bad is beside the point).

The earliest Blackpool Mecca discos (beginning in 1971) in fact, had posters proclaiming it as a "RARE SOUL" event! (see the 'Dave Godin in Blackpool' article in Blues & Soul with a photo featuring none other than Ian Levine if you doubt this statement!) The desire to hear "rarer Soul" than could be heard at the local disco was the driving force that persuaded people to travel around the country and elevated this policy. (That however was then, and I concede that the same factors do not neccessarily apply today)

"The Northern Soul scene is about people going out and listening and dancing to the music that they like, and maybe buy a few tunes evrey now and then and don't care if it's on bootleg, pressing or CD or MP3. Don't care who sings it, produces it oer whatever. They just care if they like it...."

Yes, maybe some people who attend Northern Soul discos think this way, but then so do most NON-SOUL disco goers! For your information, there has always been controversy about bootlegging as it was (and is) seen to damage the integrity of the SCENE ITSELF (and not because it reduces the value of original records for collectors)

You go on to criticise my comments about the Northern Soul scene being a "collective endeavour", then assert "...what the Northern Scene is about" ! So by the same token, whom are you speaking for? and who elected you to speak for them?

"Knowing who sings and produces" the songs that keep the scene ticking over has always been an important part of finding similar sides/songs, and hence ensuring it's survival don't you think? Where do you think past record finds came from, Santa Claus? It sure wasn't courteousy of the marketing men, as many top tunes were "discovered" on the official B-Side of the releases "promoted" by the record companies! Eula Cooper, Yum Yums etc. are prime examples.

Finally, do not mistake me for someone who is ever against NEW recordings being played on the Soul scene, "Northern" or otherwise. I believe the many arguments I have had on here over this very point are well known by now(!) I am merely pointing out the simple fact that it is not for anyone to dictate what new records MUST qualify as "Northern". New Tavares records were embraced while "Northern Soul Dancer" by Biddu was ignored in favour of the flip side! It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if Levine's current or past productions got played at events that I attended. I've danced to many of Ian's recordings in the past and may do so again. BUT ONLY IF I FEEL INCLINED TO THE MUSIC!

This post has been edited by mel brat: Today, 12:12 AM

Really well put that Mel

I've never been in love with the exclusivity & the original only part of the scene (even though i collect), my utopia has always been the general public getting what we get, so to speak. But more & more latley & backed up by some of this, i am starting to appreciate that it can never happen. Once out in the mainstream it's always going to get subverted & watered down by the get rich quick music industry

Edited August 1, 2007 by Bogue

[Guest Paul]

There was a time when "northern soul" could be used - to a degree - as a general term to describe a style of music, but the music already existed and was already called soul, R&B, pop, disco, whatever.

As the "northern soul" scene developed, changed and fragmented the music became much more diverse and the term "northern soul" became an even less accurate description. Let's face it, a "northern soul" record to one person may well be a soul, pop, disco or R&B record to another person.

The fact is that "northern soul" can only really describe a scene - or even a section of a scene. And the same applies to "modern soul" and "crossover" etc.

It's all about perception. If I perceive a record to be soulful, then it's a soul record to me.

We use far too many categories and sub-categories, probably to make us feel as if we "own" something. But the music was created by someone else; we're just playing games with it.

Paul Mooney

[Steve G]

As I have stated earlier it depends what your definition of Northern Soul is.

As you have stated your definition is "to your mind" your definition. It's maybe not shared by the majority.

Not by the majority? I attend clubs regularly, and I don't hear these sounds being played at ANY of the clubs. No doubt in your mind the DJ's are all blinkered as well as the attending punters? I was at an all dayer on Saturday and we played 13 hours of soul music - not a single tailor made played and as far as I can tell not a single request for one either. Same thing at the last weekender I was at. Or are you talking about the "majority" who don't go to clubs?

Do you think that the people who made these records had the amibition of selling no records only to be looked upon findle 40 years later by a load of 30-60 year olds in the UK?

What's the difference then between that and a tailor-made soul record made in the 1970's to cash-in on the burgeoning Northern Soul scene?

Of course they planned to sell records, or get the attention of bigger labels and producers When someone presses 500 copies of something they have an aspiration that it'll get played on radio and they'll have to press another 5,000 copies.

The difference between a sound made in the 60's was that it was contemporary and designed to sound like the then current success of Motown, Stax, dance crazes etc. Remember many of these records are B sides also. They were authentic recordings made thirty of forty years ago and were right in the pocket of what was then happening in the USA.

And you say that you prefer Levine's work with Take That? No Northern Soul inspiration on any of those recordings now was there? In fact if you take that (no pun intended) a step further. How would you have felt if Take That had had a massive Levine produced hit with a reworking of a Northern Soul Classic? Or if their album had benn called Northernsoul 1994?

Phil

Actually Levine's work with Take That was pretty good commercial music, albeit not northern soul. As for them having a massive hit with a reworking of a northern classic, we had exactly that in the early 80's with Soft Cell, and try as I might I cannot find many people who view that as "northern soul".

I think, with respect, that you like many others are confusing the Northern Soul scene with the Rare Soul collecting scene.

They are not the same.

Phil

The two are inextricably linked Phil. Listen when I get a request for one of these new sounds at a club, I'll let you know.

[Pete S]

Phil

We shall agree to disagree, and for the record 4 Vandals, Veneicia WIlson etc were never classed as northern soul round these 'ear parts of the world. Always suspect records from the first time we heard them.

You say 'we' - I saw the Venicia Wilson pack the floor at the Blackpool weekender and at the Ritz allnighter that boxing day - nobody questioned it, unless a couple of thousand people were brainwashed, and whatever you say or think - the Venicia Wilson record is as good a new discovery as anything played in the last decade, the way he chopped up an old record and made it into something totally different was genius. It's a fantastic record.

Never liked the Four Vandals mind.

[Steve G]

You say 'we' - I saw the Venicia Wilson pack the floor at the Blackpool weekender and at the Ritz allnighter that boxing day - nobody questioned it, unless a couple of thousand people were brainwashed, and whatever you say or think - the Venicia Wilson record is as good a new discovery as anything played in the last decade, the way he chopped up an old record and made it into something totally different was genius. It's a fantastic record.

Never liked the Four Vandals mind.

But that's the point Pete, it's not an old record - it relies heavily on "Downtown" itself a classic pop record, but to all intents and purposes was a "new" record. I agree it's one of his better ones though and superior to the 4 Vandals.

[Sebastian]

it relies heavily on "Downtown" itself a classic pop record, but to all intents and purposes was a "new" record.

It relies even heavier on Peter Hamilton Generation's instrumental of "Hey Girl" on Jamie which is the track Ian re-edited/sampled into the Venicia Wilson tune.

Which names are listed as writers to the Venicia Wilson track?

Edited August 1, 2007 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

It relies even heavier on Peter Hamilton Generation's instrumental of "Hey Girl" on Jamie which is the track Ian re-edited/sampled into the Venicia Wilson tune.

Have a listen:

https://www.soulclub.org/stream/Peter_Hamil...Girl_(inst).ram

Cheeky.

[Pete S]

It relies even heavier on Peter Hamilton Generation's instrumental of "Hey Girl" on Jamie which is the track Ian re-edited/sampled into the Venicia Wilson tune.

Which names are listed as writers to the Venicia Wilson track?

Theres no relies about it, it IS Peter Hamilton re-arranged - but that's a really great instrumental to begin with. The composer credits on Venicia Wilson are Howard Boggess-Fred Bauer. A&R is credited to Joe Cook (the real Top Top was his label)

[Sebastian]

Theres no relies about it, it IS Peter Hamilton re-arranged

I know. My tongue was placed firmly in cheek...

[Phild]

"But like Mel has been saying, they were only banded as Northern Soul "Monsters" "after" they became dance floor fillers at the clubs, nobody said "these are Northern Soul records so play them", or the like."

Maybe those particular exapmples I've cited were but take a look back at the magazines and see the ads for new "Northern Soul" releases

It is only recently (and then exceptions are made when certain members of the Soul Police allow) that it has been felt that Northern Soul means OLD. It doesn't. Right through this scene from its very inception new release records have been played alongside old classics. The sound and the beat makes it Northern Soul NOT the age of the recording, or whether it was recorded in a professional studio or somebody's shed. That's all irrelevant.

Fair enough, but still find fun in the oldies /newies debate But again the same thing applies whatever the age, they become classics because people like them & so they get played.

People like them because they get played

In my opinion people have got themselves all flustered over these particular recordings simply because of the name Levine being attached to them. The very mention of Levine gets people worked up. Look at the number of postings and views on every topic he's mentioned in - I rest my case. Look at the example of the, now infamous, Four Vandals record. When it was percieved to be 30 odd years old it was Northern Soul. Once Levine's involvement was revealed it was all of a sudden crap.

Disagree Phil, as i said in an earlier post, people are just commenting on the music.

& as for the now infamous Four Vandals record, i think that is more likely what IL & friends would like us to believe. I remember a friend playing it to me & my reaction was "It's not terrible, but it dosen't sound right somehow ? sounds like it was made yesterday"

& i have yet to meet anyone, then or now who has not said something similar.

The well known collectors and DJ's on the scene who paid big money and played it when it first came over from America didn't think it sounded dodgy

I 've listened to all the tracks on the net from this album that are on the net now and I would say that yes, they are Northern Soul. There are reminiscences of Northern tracks we all know in most of them. But that's only to be expected, that's where the guy drew all his influences from. And as for synthesizers? I didn't hear a single one. Samples maybe, but samples of real instruments played by real musicians. But that's totally different to a synthesizer. And there is definitely not a drum machine to be heard anywhere.

I'm sorry Phil but if that is the case i applaud that drummer because he does a mega impression of a drum machine loop !

No he doesn't. Someone has done a good job of sampling him and then using the sample creatively. But he's a real drummer NOT a drum machine

As far as I'm concerned if you don't like it, don't buy it. I for one will buy a copy when it comes out, and I'm sure many others will. And who knows, maybe one day some of these recordings will be played at a Northern Soul venue. I for one don't see why not.

That's my two pennorth anyway.

Phil

Well good luck to you Phil, if you like it that's all that really matters Just in the same way as we that don't won't buy it.

& i would hope you understand our opinions are based on what we have heard & nothing else, & we have just as much right to it as those who disagree with us.

It just seems to me that where IL is concerened if you say you don't like what he has made his fans imediatley cry out "personal attack"

People can like or dislike whatever they want. That's their prerogative. But it's not just a case of people saying that is it? It's the old let's slag off Levine routine by quite a few too

[Phild]

There was a time when "northern soul" could be used - to a degree - as a general term to describe a style of music, but the music already existed and was already called soul, R&B, pop, disco, whatever.

The term Northern Soul is still widely used Paul amongst Joe Public of a certain age to describe a music with a certain, beat, sound and feel. Well it is round here anyway

Phil

[Guest]

People can like or dislike whatever they want. That's their prerogative. But it's not just a case of people saying that is it? It's the old let's slag off Levine routine by quite a few too

[Phild]

Not by the majority? I attend clubs regularly, and I don't hear these sounds being played at ANY of the clubs. No doubt in your mind the DJ's are all blinkered as well as the attending punters? I was at an all dayer on Saturday and we played 13 hours of soul music - not a single tailor made played and as far as I can tell not a single request for one either. Same thing at the last weekender I was at. Or are you talking about the "majority" who don't go to clubs?

Which sounds don't you hear exactly? The ones off this particular album? That's not surprising, they're not released yet. But how about any of Levine's other "tailor-mades" - Exciters - Reaching For The Best, Ronnie McNeir - Lucky Number, Supremes - Back By Popular Demand, Barbara Pennington - 24 Hours A day, Sidney Barnes - Standing On Solid Ground etc etc. Have you never heard any of these at a soul night or all-niter?

Of course they planned to sell records, or get the attention of bigger labels and producers When someone presses 500 copies of something they have an aspiration that it'll get played on radio and they'll have to press another 5,000 copies.

The difference between a sound made in the 60's was that it was contemporary and designed to sound like the then current success of Motown, Stax, dance crazes etc. Remember many of these records are B sides also. They were authentic recordings made thirty of forty years ago and were right in the pocket of what was then happening in the USA.

You are referring purely to 60's stuff here, and the Northen scene doesn't consist of just 60's recordings. There are plenty records that have been played on the scene that are new releases that "look back" to the beat and sound of the past.

The two are inextricably linked Phil. Listen when I get a request for one of these new sounds at a club, I'll let you know.

They are linked yes, but very separate entities too. And I am sure that you'll get a request for one of 'em one day. But you don't need to let me know, I don't care.

[Phild]

People can like or dislike whatever they want. That's their prerogative. But it's not just a case of people saying that is it? It's the old let's slag off Levine routine by quite a few too

It's not slagging of Levine as a person it's just having listened to so many of his productions over the years i just think at best he is a mediocre producer.

If he has used real musicians on this latest album he has managed to make it all sound like it's computer generated which i suppose is an achievement of sorts.

Some of the vocalists are good but let down badly by the standard of the songs.

I wasn't on the scene in the 70's so my experience of Levine started with the NIGHTMARE lable - thru - MOTORCITY and now onto this stuff it just don't make pretty listening to my ears.

IMO of course

Derek

And you and everybody else is perfectly entitled to an opinion. My opinion is that some of this is really quite good and I am looking forward to hearing the whole album. I personally haven't heard much of the nightmare stuff, and what I have heard doesn't do it for me. I love some of the Motorcity stuff, and some of the recent stuff over the last few years. The re-done version of David Ruffin - Hurt The One You Love is absolutely brilliant, together with the Tammi Lavette - 7 days.

Phil

[Guest]

"There was a time when "northern soul" could be used - to a degree - as a general term to describe a style of music, but the music already existed and was already called soul, R&B, pop, disco, whatever.

paul moony

---------------------

Eh? Its obvious music already existed for NS sounds to be created in UK clubs, you are not saying much there mate. Do you have your eyes closed? the term NS actually is becoming more prominent in society and music culture in general, as we are getting older paradoxically. NS now embraces soul music across the board.

"We use far too many categories and sub-categories, probably to make us feel as if we "own" something. But the music was created by someone else; we're just playing games with it.

Paul Moony

-----------------------

Own something? Bizarre point again, the music was catergorized so we know which disco to attend, purely for practical purposes. "Northern Soul at Queens Hall tonight". The sub-categories are important, I would fall asleep if I heard a particular style of NS at a venue, for instance, "Crossover at Thorne" would make me orgasm, but Oldies at Brighouse would put me in a coma. Its all NS, but the catergory is really helpful

Colin

[Guest Bogue]

The well known collectors and DJ's on the scene who paid big money and played it when it first came over from America didn't think it sounded dodgy

I've read this too Phil, but did it really happen ? If it did then all i can say is they must have been off there head or they were in on the ruse !

I mean come on, the name of the group sent my alarm bells ringing imediatly, can you really believe a group in America in the mid 60's would have called themselves 'The Four Vandals' ? They would have been banned from performing by every fine upstanding Mayor of any city.

Don't think they would have got the punk rock sounding name joke back then somehow ?

[Phild]

The well known collectors and DJ's on the scene who paid big money and played it when it first came over from America didn't think it sounded dodgy

I've read this too Phil, but did it really happen ? If it did then all i can say is they must have been off there head or they were in on the ruse !

I mean come on, the name of the group sent my alarm bells ringing imediatly, can you really believe a group in America in the mid 60's would have called themselves 'The Four Vandals' ? They would have been banned from performing by every fine upstanding Mayor of any city.

Don't think they would have got the punk rock sounding name joke back then somehow ?

It did. One well know DJ (and now promoter) threatened to punch Levine's lights out when he found out it's true provenance.

And as for the name. Not so unbelieveable at all. There was a semi-successful soul group from Baltimore called simply The Vandals, who released records on the Isley Bros T-Neck label. Their lead singer, Otis (Damon) Harris joined The Temptations in 1971 and was the lead singer on the hit "Papa Was A Rolling Stone".

[Pete S]

There was also a group called The Young Vandals. And, by coincidence quite recently, one called the Horrible Little Hoodie-Wearing C*nts

[soulAdequateNP]

It did. One well know DJ (and now promoter) threatened to punch Levine's lights out when he found out it's true provenance.

And as for the name. Not so unbelieveable at all. There was a semi-successful soul group from Baltimore called simply The Vandals, who released records on the Isley Bros T-Neck label. Their lead singer, Otis (Damon) Harris joined The Temptations in 1971 and was the lead singer on the hit "Papa Was A Rolling Stone".

Added to which, where do you think "Vandellas" is derived from?

[Guest Bogue]

It did. One well know DJ (and now promoter) threatened to punch Levine's lights out when he found out it's true provenance.

And as for the name. Not so unbelieveable at all. There was a semi-successful soul group from Baltimore called simply The Vandals, who released records on the Isley Bros T-Neck label. Their lead singer, Otis (Damon) Harris joined The Temptations in 1971 and was the lead singer on the hit "Papa Was A Rolling Stone".

Phil, i said mid 1960's not 1970, what was & was not acceptable changed a great deal in those five years !

Added to which, where do you think "Vandellas" is derived from?

Depends which theory you believe ? Was it really because Marvin Gaye called them Vandals for drowning out his singing with their backing vocals or was it the other explination that it was just an amalgamation of the 'Van' from Van Dyke Street in Detroit , the neighberhood where Martha Reeves lived & the 'Della' from Della Reese, her favourite singer ?

Whichever, they still didn't go as far as calling themselves VANDALS did they mr cleverarse school teacher smiley

Edited August 1, 2007 by Bogue

[Steve G]

PhilD wrote

"Which sounds don't you hear exactly? The ones off this particular album? That's not surprising, they're not released yet. But how about any of Levine's other "tailor-mades" - Exciters - Reaching For The Best, Ronnie McNeir - Lucky Number, Supremes - Back By Popular Demand, Barbara Pennington - 24 Hours A day, Sidney Barnes - Standing On Solid Ground etc etc. Have you never heard any of these at a soul night or all-niter?"

Maybe the description of northern soul is a regional thing, as it is very different down here to what you describe in your neck of the woods, and actually NONE of these examples you quote has been played regurarly at soul nights or allnighters down this way -not one. I am not saying none of them have ever been played but none of them have been regular spins.

"And I am sure that you'll get a request for one of 'em one day. But you don't need to let me know, I don't care".

That was tongue in cheek Phil, I have no intention of wasting my life arguing with you. tuttybye and enjoy your new "northern soul".

[Pete S]

That Barbara Pennington record - 24 hours a day - just how great is that record...it's SUPER GREAT! Stands up against any other new releases of the time (1976) and still sounds brilliant. Come to think of it - Running In Another Direction is also great (but not as great as 24..)

[Guest Paul]

Eh? Its obvious music already existed for NS sounds to be created in UK clubs, you are not saying much there mate. Do you have your eyes closed? the term NS actually is becoming more prominent in society and music culture in general, as we are getting older paradoxically. NS now embraces soul music across the board.

Own something? Bizarre point again, the music was catergorized so we know which disco to attend, purely for practical purposes. "Northern Soul at Queens Hall tonight". The sub-categories are important, I would fall asleep if I heard a particular style of NS at a venue, for instance, "Crossover at Thorne" would make me orgasm, but Oldies at Brighouse would put me in a coma. Its all NS, but the catergory is really helpful

Colin

Hello,

You missed my point, Colin. I said the term best describes a scene (or a section of a scene) rather than the music. The actual music had already been created by someone else. The "northern soul" scene does not create music, it uses music already made. And no, I don't have my eyes closed.

And when you say "NS now embraces soul music across the board" it just reinforces my point. It embraces "soul music" which already existed and was called something else to other people.

I know the categories and sub-categories are important as descriptions but my point was that the meanings are subjective and in general the term "northern soul" no longer accurately defines a style of music. It defines a group of people who like various types of music - including soul, R&B, pop, disco, etc.

I'll say it again, "northern soul" means different things (musically) to different people.

Paul Mooney

[Phild]

Maybe the description of northern soul is a regional thing, as it is very different down here to what you describe in your neck of the woods, and actually NONE of these examples you quote has been played regurarly at soul nights or allnighters down this way -not one. I am not saying none of them have ever been played but none of them have been regular spins.

maybe it is regional. I'm from up north and maybe don't quite get what Northern Soul is. Perhaps yourself or some other southern gentleman could explain it to me again. But veerrrryy slowly as I'm just a tad geographically challenged. However I have travelled extensively and I have, with the exception of Sidney Barnes, heard every single one of the tracks that I mentioned played at soul nites and all-niters down south. The Barbara Pennington and Excityers were played quite extensively round Reading area when I used to frequent soul nites there, oh 25 plus years ago. But perhap I was experiencing an earlusion?

That was tongue in cheek Phil, I have no intention of wasting my life arguing with you. tuttybye and enjoy your new "northern soul".

My what a wag Your wit is way above my poor intellect I'm sure.

[Phild]

That Barbara Pennington record - 24 hours a day - just how great is that record...it's SUPER GREAT! Stands up against any other new releases of the time (1976) and still sounds brilliant. Come to think of it - Running In Another Direction is also great (but not as great as 24..)

I agree entirely. A Northern Soul classic .... oops duck...... incoming

John Vincent used to play a very extended remix of 24 back in the day.

[Phild]

I'll say it again, "northern soul" means different things (musically) to different people.

Paul Mooney

Only to people still in touch with or actively involved in the scene. You play most Joe Public of a certain age "Right Back Where We Started From" and Drizabone, guess which one they'll say is Northern Soul?

[Steve G]

PhilD wrote: "The Barbara Pennington and Excityers were played quite extensively round Reading area when I used to frequent soul nites there, oh 25 plus years ago. But perhap I was experiencing an earlusion?"

As new releases I am sure they were - when they came out they were both pretty contemporary and were played in clubs alongside contemporary releases - the equivelent possibly now would be IL producing some techno dance or garage music.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Steve G

[Phild]

PhilD wrote: "The Barbara Pennington and Excityers were played quite extensively round Reading area when I used to frequent soul nites there, oh 25 plus years ago. But perhap I was experiencing an earlusion?"

As new releases I am sure they were - when they came out they were both pretty contemporary and were played in clubs alongside contemporary releases - the equivelent possibly now would be IL producing some techno dance or garage music.

No NOT as new releases, as Northern Soul records at Northern Soul nights a few years after their release.

Don't know if they were played there as new releases, my mum wouldn't have let me go that far on my own when they were first released (1975?)