Benny Latimore - Rain From The Sky - Blade

[Garethx]

Can anyone out there tell me definitively what the differences between a genuine original and the bootleg are. Label wise they're fairly close, both being a simple yellow label. I think the typesetting was done at an Atlantic pressing facility looking at the records: other Henry Stone logos of the time, principally Dade, were distributed by Atlantic/Atco at that particular time. I don't know if there are any other 45s on the Blade logo.

I have just bought a copy of this 45 for a fairly top-end price from a UK source, and am curious as to how it stacks up with a copy which just went through Ebay.

Run out grooves on the copy I've just bought read as follows:

on the Rain From The Sky side:

H165 DUKOFF

on the I Can't Go On Anymore side:

H164 DUKOFF

The recent Ebay sale has the following:

"This record has a hand etched matrix, the A side reads "BL-165-A Rain From The Sky", and the B side reads " BL-165-B I Cant Go On Anymore" The B side also has a number etched through that appears to be "BL665A". I got it from a collection of singles that came out of New Orleans a few years ago. I've not had this title before so I can't verify anything more than this. Please don't hesitate to ask questions about ANY record I have listed."

Has anyone out there got a genuine original release to check against, or can anyone tell me if there is reference to this 45 in JM's bootleg guide. Please help, 'cos I'm puzzled.

TIA, gareth.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Can anyone out there tell me definitively what the differences between a genuine original and the bootleg are. Label wise they're fairly close, both being a simple yellow label. I think the typesetting was done at an Atlantic pressing facility looking at the records: other Henry Stone logos of the time, principally Dade, were distributed by Atlantic/Atco at that particular time. I don't know if there are any other 45s on the Blade logo.

I have just bought a copy of this 45 for a fairly top-end price from a UK source, and am curious as to how it stacks up with a copy which just went through Ebay.

Run out grooves on the copy I've just bought read as follows:

on the Rain From The Sky side:

H165 DUKOFF

on the I Can't Go On Anymore side:

H164 DUKOFF

The recent Ebay sale has the following:

"This record has a hand etched matrix, the A side reads "BL-165-A Rain From The Sky", and the B side reads " BL-165-B I Cant Go On Anymore" The B side also has a number etched through that appears to be "BL665A". I got it from a collection of singles that came out of New Orleans a few years ago. I've not had this title before so I can't verify anything more than this. Please don't hesitate to ask questions about ANY record I have listed."

Has anyone out there got a genuine original release to check against, or can anyone tell me if there is reference to this 45 in JM's bootleg guide. Please help, 'cos I'm puzzled.

TIA, gareth.

Wish I did have, Gareth - all I can tell you is that 'Dukoff' is the name of a now-defunct recording and mastering studio in Miami (James Brown, among others, often recorded there in the mid 60s) so I would say that it sounds like an original.

I've seen a fair few boots of this, though - they DO look like Atlantic-y pressings but the vinyl's much thicker than anything that anyone who was pressing for Atlantic in the mid 60s was using...

[Garethx]

The vinyl of the copy I'm holding in my hand is pretty standard in weight as opposed to radically heavy. Looking at the type through a glass it doesn't have the giveaway photostat quality which the "pressings" of this I've seen before exhibited. However I've never had an original for direct comparison when faced with the stamping marks on the bootleg in the past, hence my question.

Another thing has occured to me about this particular copy: it has a BB hole as does the only copy listed on Popsike at the moment. The obvious boots, as well as the copy that recently sold on Ebay were all un-drilled.

[Guest]

Isn't there a WDJ of this as well? I think I saw one on ebay more than a year ago, or maybe I didn't, I am not 100% certain... What market was, or is, the boot aimed at? The mysterious "Island Soul" collectors?

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

What market was, or is, the boot aimed at? The mysterious "Island Soul" collectors?

...excatly. There's a famous reggae of this - based on the Adam Wade version - by Delroy Wilson. That's what piqued the interest of the "Island Soul" collectors in the first place.

[Garethx]

The bootleg was aimed fairly and squarely at Island Soul collectors.

[Guest]

The Island Soul "scene" is very mysterious and it would be great if someone knowledgable with insight into that scene could write a little about it. It has, probably by coincidence, a lot of musical similarities with the popcorn collectors scene it seems with many records being in demand on both scenes.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

The Island Soul "scene" is very mysterious and it would be great if someone knowledgable with insight into that scene could write a little about it. It has, probably by coincidence, a lot of musical similarities with the popcorn collectors scene it seems with many records being in demand on both scenes.

Unlike the original Dutch Popcorn scene, 'Island Soul' is not all about the dance beat, as it embraces ballads (e.g. "Rain From The Sky"). I believe the 'genre' evolved out of a desire by reggae collectors to pick up on the soul originals of reggae classics and then began to embrace records that sounded as though they should have been done in reggae or rocksteady, but weren't.

I'm no expert, but having collected reggae myself, alongside soul, since the early 70s, I can listen to a record and tell you whether or not it would 'work' as Island Soul. I also know that many records that qualify as IS are records that I would like to own myself but can no longer afford

[Guest]

ORIGINAL of Blade 164

deadwax has a 2 turn run-out and is 8.10mm wide @ the H in the scratched in matrix which reads H 165 then a gap of 8.50mm then the word DUKOFF is scratched in. The 1st. F has a"backwards" tick at the bottom of it. Pressed in vinyl which is flat.

COUNTERFEIT

matrix in deadwax reads: BL-165 - A RAIN FROM THE SKY with a three turn run-out. Label is an exact copy of the original, but the lettering is not as sharp and the yellow colouring is paler..

Note: It would be pretty easy to scratch in DUKOFF into the deadwax of the counterfeit. So the matrix of the original needs to read H1265 DUKOFF and nothing else.

[Garethx]

Thanks Tony, Christian and John for your input. Looks like I have an original.

[Guest]

The Island scene is very active, we sell to Island collector almost everday. They appreciate well produced ballads or beat-ballads. Our auction record Buddy Smith on Brut was recently won by an Island collector who is now chasing Mel Britt..(for the flipside I think)

But to get a good feel for the "sound"

Lenny Vestel - Sanla, Benny Latimore - Blades, Buddy Smith - Brut, Al McCarthur - 2 Guitars, Ronnie Douglas -Epic, Johnny Dunn - False Pride, Paul Smith - I'll Run etc are very good pointers. A rule of thumb, could be descibed as a "Stand By me" style production, the smoother the better.. but just like the Northern Soul scene there are some 45s that vere from that line and you're wondering how can this record be "Island" record.

[Steve G]

Has anyone out there got a genuine original release to check against, or can anyone tell me if there is reference to this 45 in JM's bootleg guide. Please help, 'cos I'm puzzled.

TIA, gareth.

Hi Gareth glad you got this - would have checked, but I see others have beaten me to it- class record btw. Steve

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

The Island scene is very active, we sell to Island collector almost everday. They appreciate well produced ballads or beat-ballads. Our auction record Buddy Smith on Brut was recently won by an Island collector who is now chasing Mel Britt..(for the flipside I think)

But to get a good feel for the "sound"

Lenny Vestel - Sanla, Benny Latimore - Blades, Buddy Smith - Brut, Al McCarthur - 2 Guitars, Ronnie Douglas -Epic, Johnny Dunn - False Pride, Paul Smith - I'll Run etc are very good pointers. A rule of thumb, could be descibed as a "Stand By me" style production, the smoother the better.. but just like the Northern Soul scene there are some 45s that vere from that line and you're wondering how can this record be "Island" record.

I'd say the quintessential Island Soul record is either Al McCarther or Tommy Tate's "A Lover's Reward", a record guaranteed to pique the interest of any jamaican soul fan who's never heard it before (and has done, for me, many times)...

[Chalky]

Edited June 1, 2007 by chalky

[Dylan]

ORIGINAL of Blade 164

deadwax has a 2 turn run-out and is 8.10mm wide @ the H in the scratched in matrix which reads H 165 then a gap of 8.50mm then the word DUKOFF is scratched in. The 1st. F has a"backwards" tick at the bottom of it. Pressed in vinyl which is flat.

COUNTERFEIT

matrix in deadwax reads: BL-165 - A RAIN FROM THE SKY with a three turn run-out. Label is an exact copy of the original, but the lettering is not as sharp and the yellow colouring is paler..

Note: It would be pretty easy to scratch in DUKOFF into the deadwax of the counterfeit. So the matrix of the original needs to read H1265 DUKOFF and nothing else.

Wish this was in your first bootleg guide. I checked that and then made a judgement on the quality of the guys other ebay listings at the time he was selling this.

Amongst them was a copy of Thomas Bailey on Federal so I incorrectly assumed this Benny Lattimore was an original pressing.

Now i've got to hope I can get a refund.

His feedback looks good and he sees to sell a lot so I won't dispair just yet.

You can never know enough in this game

I would have liked to have asked the same question gareth did while the auction was still live but I don't think its right to discuss live auctions. Should have tried harder to get info away from a public forum but didn't think I needed to.