Rare 45s

[Chalky]

Before you send them to the incinerater--- CAN I HAVE ONE PLEASE--

I'd sell you one If I had one

[John Parker]

cheers for that John.

I still don't know of many copies of the Mary Hunt on Soul Mate I got off your auction???? Only know or heard of two other copies

Never sure abourt records like the Mary Hunt--- I had a copy off John Anderson--- think it was around 100 quid--- may or may not be rare

Nice tune though----

Any one know about the Second Resurrection record on Stanson--- bought it because I liked the sound-- played it out a couplre of times to blank faces-- showed it to Steve Woomble on saturday who knows a lot more about modern than me-- he didnt know it -neither did Carl Willingham

May be a bit like theMary Hunt-- around but not played??? or genuinely rare??

[Guest]

Sounds an interesting theory John, but it's just that i'm affraid.

You're honestly suggesting they would put out a high quality refined recording with a sax break of over 12 seconds first. Then later on put out a less refined sound with a tiny 6 second sax break? That sax break sounds silly in the context of the record, anyone can listen to it & hear it was a f**k up.

Sorry John, cant see it.

Aidy,

I know you own a copy, and I apologise if the facts upset you. You first have to consider the process of making a record, there would be, almost without except numerous takes and ultimately, there most probably was more than one masterplate. IE all the Different Thelma, Swan etc, etc different takes released on same release #s Showmen - Our Love will Grow - is a good example.. So for Fairmont to have more than one master stamper is very likely.

The master plate has the FAIRMOUNT release # F- 1017 , so obviously it's NOT a theory, if the Rouser copy the matrix reads F- 1017 . FAIRMOUNT is a Philly Label, Frank Beverly is a PHILLY artist.

Two takes or three takes, maybe more than two masterplates but you can't get away from the fact there's a FAIRMOUNT matrix F - 1017 in the deadwax of The Rouser copy, so for me it's a SECOND LABEL and could never be anything else.

The point being Fairmount chose the more refined take to release! They had achoice from the different takes and masterplates.

How the other masterplate ended up in Washintgton to get pressed is anyones guess but was it certain is the ROUSER is not the first label. Deadwax matrix's don't lie but F-1017 has no reference to the Rouser label.

I'm not excited about 2nd. labels, no matter how exclusive it maybe, and with 4 known copies I think hype is a little O.T.T. and no matter which way you twist it.. F - 1017 points to Fairmount masterplate being used to press the Rouser release... making it...the second press. Relax though, the Rouser copy carries huge kudos & value but not for me personnally.

PS Aidy Does your ROUSER deadwax read F - 1017 if it doesn't then you have areal good case, if it does it just confirms I got lucky with my theory.

John

Edited June 3, 2007 by john manship

[Rupert]

Swans Nitty Gritty on Dore, Little Johnny Hamilton Keep On Movin on Dore, both one offs aren't they.

June Jackson on Musette, Junior McCants on King, both with just a couple of known copies.

Kell Osborne - Law Against A Heartbreaker, just two known copies, both demos.

Esther Grant, thought there were more than one of these, know Carl has a copy as well, or he did have one.

Margaret Little, certainly four known maybe one or two more.

1 THINK CARL SOLD THE ESTHER GRANT TO KENNY BURRELL

[Chalky]

E. Williams on Tide. Can't be many of those.

[Larsc]

There's that LP only Satisfaction Unlimited track that has appeared on 45 on two test pressings (delta matrix, Hot Wax). A biggie for the future I think ;-)

[Bazm]

Any one know about the Second Resurrection record on Stanson--- bought it because I liked the sound-- played it out a couplre of times to blank faces-- showed it to Steve Woomble on saturday who knows a lot more about modern than me-- he didnt know it -neither did Carl Willingham

May be a bit like theMary Hunt-- around but not played??? or genuinely rare??

Hi John

SR played at the Orwell great record

[Jumpinjoan]

1 THINK CARL SOLD THE ESTHER GRANT TO KENNY BURRELL

I know Kenny has a copy... or at least i know he definitely did have.. and he paid a fair few thousand for it if i remember correctly.. and it was off Carl

Pretty sure Rod Shard had a Combinations up for sale a while ago... or did i dream that one

[Godzilla]

Talking of RARE records has anyone mentioned a miss-press I once owned, it was the only known copy that played the instrumental version "Thank The Lord For Love" - Living Color. This was broke in two pieces during an unfortunately incident.. never heard of or seen a copy since..except the regular copies that play a boring jazz instrumental.

Didn't know there was only one of these John. So that means that all those off centre boots were pressed from this copy then. Was the original off centre or was it just the way it was copied? I'd love to hear a nice non-wobbly recording of this. It's not just a straight backing track either is it? So there's a story behind this track that we don't know yet I guess.

What was the unfortunate incident by the way?

Godz

[Dylan]

Any one know about the Second Resurrection record on Stanson--- bought it because I liked the sound-- played it out a couplre of times to blank faces-- showed it to Steve Woomble on saturday who knows a lot more about modern than me-- he didnt know it -neither did Carl Willingham

all I know about this is a copy just went through ebay for a lot of money complete with soundclips to download. Must give them a listen soon to see if I like it or not.

[Chalky]

all I know about this is a copy just went through ebay for a lot of money complete with soundclips to download. Must give them a listen soon to see if I like it or not.

have you got a link Dylan?

[Guest]

Didn't know there was only one of these John. So that means that all those off centre boots were pressed from this copy then. Was the original off centre or was it just the way it was copied? I'd love to hear a nice non-wobbly recording of this. It's not just a straight backing track either is it? So there's a story behind this track that we don't know yet I guess.

What was the unfortunate incident by the way?

Godz

I think the bootleg was done from cassette tapes I may have done while I owned it. It was NOT off center.. and i know of no other copy ever turning up.

The unfortunate incident was, I'm ashamed to say, my temper getting the better of me.. and I broke it during a row with my girlfriend. I did say before I broke it.. "this is the only known copy in the world" ...crack!

[Tabs]

I did say before I broke it.. "this is the only known copy in the world" ...crack!

What did you say after you broke it though John.

[boba]

Oh yes while I think on what about The Ivories-Please Stay- Wand.Only one known copy

until recently,a certain welsh dj/collector has also got one now is that 2 copies now then!!

Cheers.Sid

No, I have this record on wand too, can post a scan if you don't believe me, I posted it to another forum once.

[Ady Potts]

Aidy,

I know you own a copy, and I apologise if the facts upset you. You first have to consider the process of making a record, there would be, almost without except numerous takes and ultimately, there most probably was more than one masterplate. IE all the Different Thelma, Swan etc, etc different takes released on same release #s Showmen - Our Love will Grow - is a good example.. So for Fairmont to have more than one master stamper is very likely.

The master plate has the FAIRMOUNT release # F- 1017 , so obviously it's NOT a theory, if the Rouser copy the matrix reads F- 1017 . FAIRMOUNT is a Philly Label, Frank Beverly is a PHILLY artist.

Two takes or three takes, maybe more than two masterplates but you can't get away from the fact there's a FAIRMOUNT matrix F - 1017 in the deadwax of The Rouser copy, so for me it's a SECOND LABEL and could never be anything else.

The point being Fairmount chose the more refined take to release! They had achoice from the different takes and masterplates.

How the other masterplate ended up in Washintgton to get pressed is anyones guess but was it certain is the ROUSER is not the first label. Deadwax matrix's don't lie but F-1017 has no reference to the Rouser label.

I'm not excited about 2nd. labels, no matter how exclusive it maybe, and with 4 known copies I think hype is a little O.T.T. and no matter which way you twist it.. F - 1017 points to Fairmount masterplate being used to press the Rouser release... making it...the second press. Relax though, the Rouser copy carries huge kudos & value but not for me personnally.

PS Aidy Does your ROUSER deadwax read F - 1017 if it doesn't then you have areal good case, if it does it just confirms I got lucky with my theory.

John

John,

You know the the Rouser has F1017AA stamped in the dead wax, as it was I that passed that info onto you when we last discussed this subject.

Master plates were very expensive, as you well know, & I don't think Fairmount would lay out the funds for something they knew they were not going to use. All they had to do was listen to the mastertape.

Here's what I would say is more likely.

Frankie had got a release with Fairmount, "She kissed me" / "Don't cry little sad boy". He then writes (or may have written it some time before) "Because of my heart" / "I want to feel i'm wanted". Remembering the year was 1967, when uptempo numbers were going out of fashion. My gut fealing is Fairmount were not interested, probably because of the tempo. But rather than ditch the project Beverly goes to Tommy Rouse to fund & produce the record. Why did he go to Rouse in DC? Money, something that Frankie didn't have. Rouse then goes to Fairmount, after he'd done the production work on it, in an attempt to push the song to them. I would lay odds on, it was at this point when Fairmount were most likely not interested that Rouse put his hand in his pocket & shelled out for a release, a custom press. White label test presses & "x" amount of labelled release copies. What made Fairmount decide to go with a release? Perhaps Rouse managed to get some local air play. But there's no getting away from the fact that by 1967 to have a raunchy pounding number with a tiny sax break was very out dated. So this was when they opted for a cleaner more up to date sound to release.

All good fun

pottsy

[Ady Potts]

Now that I have finished my move...a question...and please move to the right thread if it's in the wrong place.

Has there been any other ultra-rare records that folk has paid high amounts for besides Frank Wilson's DO I LOVE YOU...or was that the rarest one ever?

Thank you!

By the way Maverick, great thread !

[TEDDY EDDY]

as said by tommy great thread maverick..finding this topic very interesting...rouser vs fairmount debate is interesting ,, bringing a new record into the discussion what about mr lucky iwas born to love you on stardom ..butchs old jesse boon c,up ... surely ranks as one of the rarest west coast records ever ... maybe 2 copies ... possibly 3,,, plus its agreat midtempo sound... also guy used to play record on etah his little darrow fletcher c,up ,,, never seen another copy,,,,,, and lets not forget the contessa need your love or something similar,,, as john said earlier there are quite afew on offs and 2 or 3 copy records,,, certainly there are records as rare or even rarer than frank wilson.. good topic ,,,cheers cliff,,

By the way Maverick, great thread !

[Ady Potts]

as said by tommy great thread maverick..finding this topic very interesting...rouser vs fairmount debate is interesting ,, bringing a new record into the discussion what about mr lucky iwas born to love you on stardom ..butchs old jesse boon c,up ... surely ranks as one of the rarest west coast records ever ... maybe 2 copies ... possibly 3,,, plus its agreat midtempo sound... also guy used to play record on etah his little darrow fletcher c,up ,,, never seen another copy,,,,,, and lets not forget the contessa need your love or something similar,,, as john said earlier there are quite afew on offs and 2 or 3 copy records,,, certainly there are records as rare or even rarer than frank wilson.. good topic ,,,cheers cliff,,

Hi Cliff,

It's Ady, the younger looking one of the two Good to talk to you at Burnley mate.

Re Mr. Lucky, always reminds me of Leon Haywood - It's got to be mellow - Evejim/Decca, it's that intro, almost the same.

Cheers

Ady.

[Pete S]

as said by tommy great thread maverick..finding this topic very interesting...rouser vs fairmount debate is interesting ,, bringing a new record into the discussion what about mr lucky iwas born to love you on stardom ..butchs old jesse boon c,up ... surely ranks as one of the rarest west coast records ever ... maybe 2 copies ... possibly 3,,, plus its agreat midtempo sound...

I sold a hairline-cracked copy of Mr Lucky last year for £2500 (if anyone says it was less they are telling porkies) and I have to say having heard it, quality wise it sounds worth about 10p. So does that Elipses. Well 5p in thr case of that one.

[Guest Trevski]

Hi Cliff,

It's Ady, the younger looking one of the two Good to talk to you at Burnley mate.

Re Mr. Lucky, always reminds me of Leon Haywood - It's got to be mellow - Evejim/Decca, it's that intro, almost the same.

Cheers

Ady.

Also, very similar to Thelma Lindsey/Cynthia & Imaginations/ Barbara Jean & Lyrics, "Why wern't you there" Listen to Mr Lucky intro and you could follow it with that "Baby, baby oh how I love you.."

[Guest Trevski]

No, I have this record on wand too, can post a scan if you don't believe me, I posted it to another forum once.

Scan please boba, would love to see it! Seem to remember a thread on hear years ago, about this, and several members posted, some with it on wand with red lettering, some with it with black lettering..

[boba]

Scan please boba, would love to see it! Seem to remember a thread on hear years ago, about this, and several members posted, some with it on wand with red lettering, some with it with black lettering..

The Ivories promo photo also says "scepter records" at the bottom of it. None of the group members had any idea about their record being also released on wand, but they seemed to remember doing some backing for chuck jackson and maxine brown (can't tell you which 45s they sang on though). They do sing backup on Jerry Butler's "I dig you baby".

[Steve G]

cheers for that John.

I still don't know of many copies of the Mary Hunt on Soul Mate I got off your auction???? Only know or heard of two other copies

Make that 3 copies Chalkmeister - had it for years and never played it out.

[Steve G]

Any one know about the Second Resurrection record on Stanson---

Is this rare? Yes got this. Steve

[Steve G]

There's that LP only Satisfaction Unlimited track that has appeared on 45 on two test pressings (delta matrix, Hot Wax). A biggie for the future I think ;-)

Yes, agree - nice x-over sound and one of the 'missing numbers'.

[Steve G]

The Ivories promo photo also says "scepter records" at the bottom of it. None of the group members had any idea about their record being also released on wand, but they seemed to remember doing some backing for chuck jackson and maxine brown (can't tell you which 45s they sang on though). They do sing backup on Jerry Butler's "I dig you baby".

Nice, and one of my few remaining Wand wants - good to know there's a few out there! Steve

[Simsy]

Have Walter & The Admirations or The Antellects been mentioned yet?

Someone should ask Tim Brown what he'd take for his Frank Wilson. Everyone has a price and it'd be interesting to know.

[Chalky]

Have Walter & The Admirations or The Antellects been mentioned yet?

Someone should ask Tim Brown what he'd take for his Frank Wilson. Everyone has a price and it'd be interesting to know.

I could probably safely say Tim doesn't have a price. He has no interest in selling anything from his collection.

[Simsy]

I could probably safely say Tim doesn't have a price. He has no interest in selling anything from his collection.

Wise choice with probably.

[Chalky]

Wise choice with probably.

if your so confident he will have a price drop him a line.

[Simsy]

if your so confident he will have a price drop him a line.

Be a shame to badger him. Worth asking next time we're out maybe.

Usually, thing is human nature is such that whatever you have, a little more is always nicer. What did Onassis say? If you can count it, it's not enough. Decent lottery win an a $1m offer and it'd be yours. It's all relative if you're loaded I guess.

[Chalky]

Be a shame to badger him. Worth asking next time we're out maybe.

Usually, thing is human nature is such that whatever you have, a little more is always nicer. What did Onassis say? If you can count it, it's not enough. Decent lottery win an a $1m offer and it'd be yours. It's all relative if you're loaded I guess.

But Tim is a collector of black soul music, he doesn't sell from his collection.

[Simsy]

Everyone has a price

[Guest gordon russell]

HOW ABOUT ANDY DYSON SUPER FIND C/UP BELITA WOODS FOOLISH GIRL OR MASQUARADERS C/UP RAINY DAY

TWO TOP RARE UN,S THERE

[Dylan]

have you got a link Dylan?

never kept it. It was one of those auction player jobbies and I still need to get some kind of software onto my laptop to record these. Should get myself sorted as this info needs saving realy for future reference. I have a recorder on my desktop just need to transfer it across.

[Quinvy]

Just looking at "ANOTHER" copy of Al Williams on a very nice Palmer W/DJ on ebay. I was always told that this was a rare piece. But despite the plentyfull amount for sale recently, it still seems to fetch a king's ransome. This must surely be down to demand, and not rarity. I suspect a 25 box of Palmer white demos has been found.

Connor Cagle sounds fantastic. Who has it?

[Quinvy]

Don't worry Phil, Its in the safe hands of a member of the Burnley family.

Really? do I know you?

[Quinvy]

Don't worry Phil, Its in the safe hands of a member of the Burnley family.

Ah hah! I've sussed you out. That's very sneaky of you hiding behind that persona!

[Simon T]

MASQUARADERS C/UP RAINY DAY

TWO TOP RARE UN,S THERE

Problem with C/U's is that they often seem to be '0ne-of's' until they get uncovered, then someone in the US remembers they got a wardrobe full of the Parliaments - My Rainy Day

[Simon T]

How about Patrice Holloway - Stevie - VIP (AKA Sugar Coated Words), form 1963, I thought there's only a couple of copies of it; one in the US and one in Chesterfield UK. Penned by some bloke called Frank Wilson at Motown, maybe he should have quite song writing and released a single?

[boba]

How about Patrice Holloway - Stevie - VIP (AKA Sugar Coated Words), form 1963, I thought there's only a couple of copies of it; one in the US and one in Chesterfield UK. Penned by some bloke called Frank Wilson at Motown, maybe he should have quite song writing and released a single?

Another motown rarity not well known by the northern community: a doowop collector told me that there's only two known copies of the charters on mel-o-dy. Is this true? It's a nice record.

[Guest]

John,

You know the the Rouser has F1017AA stamped in the dead wax, as it was I that passed that info onto you when we last discussed this subject.

Master plates were very expensive, as you well know, & I don't think Fairmount would lay out the funds for something they knew they were not going to use. All they had to do was listen to the mastertape.

Here's what I would say is more likely.

Frankie had got a release with Fairmount, "She kissed me" / "Don't cry little sad boy". He then writes (or may have written it some time before) "Because of my heart" / "I want to feel i'm wanted". Remembering the year was 1967, when uptempo numbers were going out of fashion. My gut fealing is Fairmount were not interested, probably because of the tempo. But rather than ditch the project Beverly goes to Tommy Rouse to fund & produce the record. Why did he go to Rouse in DC? Money, something that Frankie didn't have. Rouse then goes to Fairmount, after he'd done the production work on it, in an attempt to push the song to them. I would lay odds on, it was at this point when Fairmount were most likely not interested that Rouse put his hand in his pocket & shelled out for a release, a custom press. White label test presses & "x" amount of labelled release copies. What made Fairmount decide to go with a release? Perhaps Rouse managed to get some local air play. But there's no getting away from the fact that by 1967 to have a raunchy pounding number with a tiny sax break was very out dated. So this was when they opted for a cleaner more up to date sound to release.

All good fun

pottsy

Potsy,

I've never heard so much twaddle in the defense of a record, since that man with the "painted" Little Joe Roman's "issue" was utterly convinced it was authentic.

the FACTS are.

1. F1017 is a genuine FAIRMOUNT release # it was scratched into the FAIRMOUNT master plate (s) for that reason.

2. Frank Beverley was already recording for Gilda Woods at FAIRMOUNT with release # 1012 a year earlier

Are you suggesting the ROUSER copy was first label and they had a crystal ball and scratched in F - 1017 into their master plate just in case Fairmount released it (on that #)... that is frankly ridiculous.

3. There are two takes known. one which Fairmount did a TEST PRESS of (Mr.Parker's copy) is a FAIRMOUNT test press NOT a ROUSER test press because this press too has F-1017 , they rejected this one. That master later emerged in 140 miles south of Frank Beverly's Philadelphia home in Washington and was pressed at a date as yet to be unconfirmed.

Here the order of pressing according to the facts.

1. Fairmount test press take 1.. Mr. Parker's copy rejected by Fairmount for release.

2. Fairmount 1017 take 2

3. Rouser press using the rejected masterplate take 1 with F -1017 scratched into it.

So Mr Parker actually owns the first and only original press.

You did, kindly confirm the master number for me, but at the time of sale many years earlier of the "test press" me and Mr.Parker discussed that it was the first press and was most likely the same as The Rouser press, as that copy was credited to Butler's featuring Frank Beverly aswas the Rouser press, you did confirm that with the master #.

I'm sorry to say none of your argument stands up.. because your ROUSER copy has the FAIRMOUNT release #'s in the deadwax. Couldn't be clearer really and I'm surprised I need to write an to answer weak points and theories.

There is not one single FACT that points to ROUSER being the first genuine press. It all points to Tommy Rouse pressing the record in Washington may have been a similiar period but certainly not before the FAIRMOUNT test press .

Still rare Ady, still carries huge kudos. and is certainly a different take.. but like I said second labels don't excite me personally. Same with Al Williams on Palmer..etc. I would either like to own the FAIRMOUNT test press take 1 or the Fairmount release # 1017.

If in a perfect world Rouser did not have F - 1017 in the deadwax I too would be likely to say Rouser was the first label..but it does..

[Guest Trevski]

HOW ABOUT ANDY DYSON SUPER FIND C/UP BELITA WOODS FOOLISH GIRL OR MASQUARADERS C/UP RAINY DAY

TWO TOP RARE UN,S THERE

Heard Sam, Tim and someone else I'm sure, play the Belita Woods out.

[Ady Potts]

Potsy,

the FACTS are.

1. F1017 is a genuine FAIRMOUNT release # it was scratched into the FAIRMOUNT master plate (s) for that reason.

Hello John,

The numbers on the Rouser were factory stamped, not scratched, with the factory stamp as well. The markings only became scratched in when they turned it over to "Bell" for a national release, hence the Bell markings in the Fairmount copies.

pottsy

[Marc Forrest]

E. Williams on Tide. Can't be many of those.

Two I understand, one in the UK and one in Munich, Germany (found for 15 cents in a book exchange shop in Dallas, Texas)

Edited June 4, 2007 by Marc Forrest

[Marc Forrest]

But Tim is a collector of black soul music, he doesn't sell from his collection.

Tim once told me about an offer of 50.000 USD he turned down...

Marc

[Marc Forrest]

Another rare one would be Jimmy & The Sundiales "Where Did I Loose You" V-Tone, Val Shively has an issue and I happily own the V-Tone Test Press...anymore copies ? Steve Smith told me that he discovered the tune druing the Stafford days and found three ?

Marc

[Marc Forrest]

...then someone in the US remembers they got a wardrobe full of the Parliaments - My Rainy Day

Can I in this case have one for 5 % of its "current rate"

[Pete S]

I hate it when people say there's only2 copies or 3 copies of something unless they can actually prove it. Who knows how many copies are in the hands of 'silent' collectors? These people did not press up quantities of 2, 3 copies unless they were for test pressings...they'd press 100, 200, 500, 1000. If you really want a 1 off or 2 off, try the acetates that Mangoman is selling...you'll get a real exclsuive for yourself there.

I was talking to Tedsoul the other day and we both agreed that more or less every rare record has appeared on ebay...one that hasn't is Norma Jenkins - Airplane Song. Shit record but must be incredibly rare.

[Simon M]

I hate it when people say there's only2 copies or 3 copies of something unless they can actually prove it. Who knows how many copies are in the hands of 'silent' collectors? These people did not press up quantities of 2, 3 copies unless they were for test pressings...they'd press 100, 200, 500, 1000. If you really want a 1 off or 2 off, try the acetates that Mangoman is selling...you'll get a real exclsuive for yourself there.

I was talking to Tedsoul the other day and we both agreed that more or less every rare record has appeared on ebay...one that hasn't is Norma Jenkins - Airplane Song. Shit record but must be incredibly rare.

I agree Pete , even with the internet giving everyone a voice .... there's still many silent collectors ,with some of todays big sounds and rareuns

Edited June 4, 2007 by Simon M