Irma And The Fascinations

[Dave Moore]

Bit of menta l block at the moment regards this:

Irma And The Fascinators - You Need Love - Priority

This is the song that uses the same backing track as The Cooperettes - Shing A Ling on Brunswick.

Was this a real track, discovered in the vaults in the 70s, or is this a tailor made for the dancefloor? I can't find any real info that brings me to a definite conclusion. Because the track uses the Cooperettes verbatim, I can't tell one way or the other.

Can anyone put me out of my misery? Am I getting confused with the Edy Robin of Soul Symphony infamy?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest Trevski]

Bit of menta l block at the moment regards this:

Irma And The Fascinators - You Need Love - Priority

This is the song that uses the same backing track as The Cooperettes - Shing A Ling on Brunswick.

Was this a real track, discovered in the vaults in the 70s, or is this a tailor made for the dancefloor? I can't find any real info that brings me to a definite conclusion. Because the track uses the Cooperettes verbatim, I can't tell one way or the other.

Can anyone put me out of my misery? Am I getting confused with the Edy Robin of Soul Symphony infamy?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Unissued.Studio tape, I think. deffo not a "tailor made"

Edited May 1, 2007 by Trevski

[Dave Moore]

Unissued.Studio tape, I think. deffo not a "tailor made"

Cheers Trevski.

Who found it do you know? Who put it out on a Priority 45?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest Trevski]

Cheers Trevski.

Who found it do you know? Who put it out on a Priority 45?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Don't know about the Priority 45? Think it was Adey C who found it, may have been on a 100club aniv. single if memory serves, but don't quote me on that!

[Chalky]

Don't know about the Priority 45? Think it was Adey C who found it, may have been on a 100club aniv. single if memory serves, but don't quote me on that!

Wasn't it a Rob Marriott spin? Thats who I associate it with. Covered up as the Four Larks if memory serves me correctly

Edited May 1, 2007 by chalky

[Simon T]

Unreleased Virtue Recording Studio acetate produced by Weldon McDougal.

Label says:

"YOU NEED LOVE"

"IRMA & WELDON"

[Dave Moore]

Thanks guys. Head now unblocked.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest melandthensome]

Allright Dave

I spoke about this in depth with Weldon about 3 yrs ago now but think I might of lost the letters as my mersi-mail was lost but will look for you and if I find it will certainly post for you.......

mel-o-delphia

[Baz Atkinson]

Wasn't it a Rob Marriott spin? Thats who I associate it with. Covered up as the Four Larks if memory serves me correctly

YEP HE GOT THAT ALONG WITH LOTS OF OTHER STUFF ROUND ABOUT 1988ISH [AND ALL THEM REEL TO REELS AL CONEY HAD UNDER HIS BED].

BAZ A.

[Dave Moore]

Allright Dave

I spoke about this in depth with Weldon about 3 yrs ago now but think I might of lost the letters as my mersi-mail was lost but will look for you and if I find it will certainly post for you.......

mel-o-delphia

Hi Mel,

Weldon doesn't remember the sessions properly. That's my problem at the moment. Sometimes the artists recollections of what they regard as "throw away" recordings needs a little stirring. I've asked Andy R for the details of the acetates he acquired. Hopefully he'll clear things up for We ldon and I. Be gratefull if you do locate the messages Mate. Every little bit of in fo helps. Cheers Mel.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[KevH]

Wasn't it a Rob Marriott spin? Thats who I associate it with. Covered up as the Four Larks if memory serves me correctly

[Dave Raistrick]

Hi Dave Raistrick here,

re - Irma & The Fascinations - You Need Love - Virtue Acetate

I Found this at Weldon's house in the mid 80's whilst looking through a pile of discs and tapes - Brought it back to the UK as a total unknown/New discovery and traded it with Rob Marriott for a Tayster Demo of Lilly Bryant - When Rob sold up l think Richard Searling ended up with it ? Not sure what happened to it later on ?

[Dave Moore]

Hi Dave Raistrick here,

re - Irma & The Fascinations - You Need Love - Virtue Acetate

I Found this at Weldon's house in the mid 80's whilst looking through a pile of discs and tapes - Brought it back to the UK as a total unknown/New discovery and traded it with Rob Marriott for a Tayster Demo of Lilly Bryant - When Rob sold up l think Richard Searling ended up with it ? Not sure what happened to it later on ?

Hi Dave,

Have PM'd you.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Chatty]

 

One for sale at the minute.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Northern-Soul-Acetate-Unissued-45-IRMA-FASCINATIONS-You-Need-Love-VIRTUE-HEAR/322001182957?_trksid=p2045573.c100034.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D35411%26meid%3Dec25e7a6dccd4345991f4ef399c97377%26pid%3D100034%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D311488793161

[Andybellwood]

2006 thread here 

Issued on a Goldmine Seven 

[Hammie]

On 5/1/2007 at 20:31, Dave Moore said:

Bit of menta l block at the moment regards this:

 

Irma And The Fascinators - You Need Love - Priority

 

This is the song that uses the same backing track as The Cooperettes - Shing A Ling on Brunswick.

 

Was this a real track, discovered in the vaults in the 70s, or is this a tailor made for the dancefloor? I can't find any real info that brings me to a definite conclusion. Because the track uses the Cooperettes verbatim, I can't tell one way or the other.

 

Can anyone put me out of my misery? Am I getting confused with the Edy Robin of Soul Symphony infamy?

 

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Dave I think the record you are thinking of here was   IRMA & THE LARKS - WITHOUT YOU BABY - PRIORITY (A Harthon production)

co written by Eddie Holman......nice classy mid-tempo. Certainly aint the fantastic Acetate on ebay at moment with shing-a-ling backing   

[Andy Rix]

Interesting that this is the 3rd acetate that has surfaced for this song. I wonder if they did more than one studio session for it as these acetates were usually cut after one had ended. The copy on ebay, as linked above, does have the annotation #3 

Dave Raistrick obtained the first one from Weldon which went to Rob Marriot ... I have one credited to 'Irma & Weldon' .. and now another

The writing on the current ebay copy is very unusual to my eyes ... it looks very 'English' in format ... meaning it looks like no other writing I've seen on Virtue acetates ... but it looks and sounds like the real deal as far as I can tell

Andy

[Simon T]

1 hour ago, Andy Rix said:

The writing on the current ebay copy is very unusual to my eyes ... it looks very 'English' in format ... meaning it looks like no other writing I've seen on Virtue acetates ... but it looks and sounds like the real deal as far as I can tell

 

Maybe a 'leftie'?

[Andy Rix]

Well spotted Simon .... I haven't seen those before ... Same handwriting 

Andy 

[Triode]

Sound file on eBay sounds spot on to me & very clear, but a few things would concern me

a) the small centre hole

b) the large run in groove

c) the size of the label in proportion to the disk if you compare it to Andy's disk

d) the copy Richard has/had was completely different from memory in that the writing was a thick marker type pen

it may well be be totally legit but I would advise a little caution.

[Simon T]

1 hour ago, Andy Rix said:

Well spotted Simon .... I haven't seen those before ... Same handwriting 

Andy 

yes, but what does it smell like? You used to laugh at me for sniffing acetates, but the blue, green and purple ones are all distinctly different

[Mick Holdsworth]

58 minutes ago, Triode said:

Sound file on eBay sounds spot on to me & very clear, but a few things would concern me

a) the small centre hole

b) the large run in groove

c) the size of the label in proportion to the disk if you compare it to Andy's disk

d) the copy Richard has/had was completely different from memory in that the writing was a thick marker type pen

it may well be be totally legit but I would advise a little caution.

It looks like an 8 inch acetate, so that would take care of the larger run-in (being standard at 7 inch) and the perceived smaller label. Also, I don't think 8 inch acetates have large middles - I've got quite a few and they are all small middles.

There could be some with large middles, just never seen any.

Cheers
Mick

[purist]

One night I was at the old Keele Niters, early years (when would that have been? later 80's or early 90s?) and I picked up an acetate like this from a sellers sales box. I was overjoyed at the prospect of owning the tune, but it was tidy money (might have been 400 quid?) so I took time out to think about it as no one else seemed to be interested on that night (or maybe no one else had any money with them?)

The seller was somebody I trusted and we spoke on the phone during the following week, as I'd decided to go ahead with the deal. The seller told me he had become very worried because the same person that he'd had this acetate from had subsequently approached him with a small number of other similarly labeled acetates of stupendous Northern tunes (including another copy of this Irma tune - possibly on different label, though whether it was different by colour or by design or writing I can't tell you) and there was a story going around that a quantity of acetates had been brought back from ?? (might have been Philadelphia?, can't exactly remember now) and these acetates were being cut in the UK in East Midlands somewhere, with great tunes being added to these genuine 60's acetates  - not just recordings that could have been on Virtue but even some recordings that couldn't possibly end up on Virtue, maybe known tracks from Detroit etc) . In some cases these "additions" were put onto what was the blank flipside to some tune recorded at Virtue or where ever, maybe a ballad or something that had no interest to us N/S fans , in other cases the blank acetates hadn't been previously used at all on either side. This seller told me he was going to give back the whole lot to the guy because it wasn't worth his reputation to be selling these acetates that could be genuine but equally likely could be a rip off. He told me who the owner of these acetates was so I could follow it up if i wanted to. I knew him and liked him, but I decided because there was no way to verify their provenance I'd keep my money back - think most of that cash went on a Sam Williams on Tower?

It's a long time ago now, and I don't want to name names as with time I could be confused. I'm posting this not to witch hunt but to help determine genuineness. Thinking back now, possibly part of what made me a little uncomfortable and stopped me jumping in with both feet was that it was a black and white label and I was familiar with the yellow Virtue labelled acetates.  You have to remember we didn't know half of what we know now, back then, and as I asked about 'the record bar cognoscenti' told me it had to be a yellow label if it was a genuine mid 60's recording and that the white labels were things made at the end of 1969 onwards. Of course you had to wonder where this wisdom came from and the accuracy of it, but if something is said with enough conviction we tended to believe it, or maybe it was just me being gullible !

One last thing. As a kid there was a studio local to us that had a cutting lathe and many a N/S emidisc emerged from that place, but when I bumped into the chap who owned the place 20 odd years later I asked him what had happened to his machine he told me he'd sold it to some guys in the East Midlands, Leicester possibly. Could that machine be the source of these added to acetates?

Personally I still have bad dreams about this, wondering if I left behind a proper acetate of an awesome tune. Hope this info helps and hasn't just muddied the waters.

 

[Chalky]

Wasn't too long ago you could buy original (60s) blank virtue acetates one places like ebay, and other if you looked around.

[Triode]

7 hours ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

It looks like an 8 inch acetate, so that would take care of the larger run-in (being standard at 7 inch) and the perceived smaller label. Also, I don't think 8 inch acetates have large middles - I've got quite a few and they are all small middles.

There could be some with large middles, just never seen any.

Cheers
Mick

Good point Mick it could well be 8" though there is no mention in the description......

[Ian Dewhirst]

Is the implication here that there could be a possibility of bootleg acetates? It would be a lot easier than bootlegging original 45s that's for sure.

One thing that would flag me slightly here is that there seems to be a huge amount of Virtue acetates compared to most labels of comparable size. There's probably more Virtue acetates than Bell ones. So how come so many acetates from a tiny Philadelphia label which never saw any significant commercial success on it's releases? Rolling off all those acetates would have been an almost full-time job over there going by the evidence. Why run off 3 acetates on a record which never came out? What would be the point? It just seems weird. 

However, what we do know is that Virtue/Harthon was very hooked-up with the Northern Soul scene in the early to mid 70s. That's when all the new orange Harthon pressings of Bernie Williams "Focused On You", The Volcanoes "(It's Gotta Be A) False Alarm", The Jades "Hotter Than Fire", Lee Garrett "I Can't Break The Habit", The Preludes "Deeper Than That", The Body Motions "Puttin' You On" etc etc emerged - the majority of which had never been heard before. They all appeared via Soul Bowl's lists probably circa 1974. I bought 'em at the time but none of 'em really gelled with me probably in part because they all arrived at once on Harthon basic pressings and any credibility disappeared right there. When later on I saw an ORIGINAL Harthon pressing of "(It's Gotta Be A) False Alarm" I was surprised 'cos I thought all those orange pressings were unreleased things that were specially done for the UK Northern Scene. 

I'm not criticizing anything that's happened here but merely highlighting the fact that some of the U.S. record guys have long been aware of the Northern Soul scene and some of these guys are serious operators and no slouches in making a buck from their investment. I know several of them really well, I love 'em dearly because they're proper record guys, but make no mistake, they are slick and know how to titillate the UK scene.

Virtue are in the acetate business that's for sure. I'm stunned by the sheer volume of 'em.

Ian D

[Benji]

Ian, my understanding is that Virtue was predominantly a recording studio used by a huge number of Philly artists/producers. Therefore the number of Virtue acetates in circulation doesn't really surprise me.

[Ian Dewhirst]

23 minutes ago, Benji said:

Ian, my understanding is that Virtue was predominantly a recording studio used by a huge number of Philly artists/producers. Therefore the number of Virtue acetates in circulation doesn't really surprise me.

For sure. They probably had a lathe right there on the premises. But how many Sigma Sound acetates do you see? Or any other equivalent studio in the U.S.? It may just be my over-fertile imagination, but I seem to have been seeing Virtue acetates pretty consistently over the last 40 odd years.

Ian D

[Garethx]

Virtue had a mastering studio. Many recordings cut at other studios throughout the tri-state area in addition to Philadelphia studios were mastered there.

Edited February 14, 2016 by garethx

[Chris L]

On 5/1/2007 at 22:16, simon t said:

Unreleased Virtue Recording Studio acetate produced by Weldon McDougal.

Label says:

"YOU NEED LOVE"

"IRMA & WELDON"

I have a recording of an interview I had with Weldon McD made in about 2004/2005 in he says that he had an affair with "Irma" that cost him his marriage. 

[Chalky]

16 hours ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Is the implication here that there could be a possibility of bootleg acetates? It would be a lot easier than bootlegging original 45s that's for sure.

Virtue are in the acetate business that's for sure. I'm stunned by the sheer volume of 'em.

Ian D

As I said Ian, it wasn't too long ago you could buy Virtue blanks.  Also Rob was a dab hand at making very good look-a-likes and he wasn't alone.  Not many question acetates like they do issues etc 

[Eddie Hubbard]

I think Rob Marriott's copy ended up with Richard S ,doesn't Keith Money have one also ? I guess the first actual release was the Goldsoul 7 ? interesting thread.....

[Ted Massey]

are we saying then 8000$ was a lot to pay and no it wasn't me before you ask lol

Edited February 16, 2016 by Ted Massey

[tosspot]

as an acetate collector, I bid on this when it was still low,  but I soon got outbid by you millionaires out there,  if it is a boot, thank goodness I'm only a lowly quarry worker with no chance of keeping up with you wealthy bankers

[Mark W]

On 13/02/2016 at 14:31, purist said:

One night I was at the old Keele Niters, early years (when would that have been? later 80's or early 90s?) and I picked up an acetate like this from a sellers sales box. I was overjoyed at the prospect of owning the tune, but it was tidy money (might have been 400 quid?) so I took time out to think about it as no one else seemed to be interested on that night (or maybe no one else had any money with them?)

The seller was somebody I trusted and we spoke on the phone during the following week, as I'd decided to go ahead with the deal. The seller told me he had become very worried because the same person that he'd had this acetate from had subsequently approached him with a small number of other similarly labeled acetates of stupendous Northern tunes (including another copy of this Irma tune - possibly on different label, though whether it was different by colour or by design or writing I can't tell you) and there was a story going around that a quantity of acetates had been brought back from ?? (might have been Philadelphia?, can't exactly remember now) and these acetates were being cut in the UK in East Midlands somewhere, with great tunes being added to these genuine 60's acetates  - not just recordings that could have been on Virtue but even some recordings that couldn't possibly end up on Virtue, maybe known tracks from Detroit etc) . In some cases these "additions" were put onto what was the blank flipside to some tune recorded at Virtue or where ever, maybe a ballad or something that had no interest to us N/S fans , in other cases the blank acetates hadn't been previously used at all on either side. This seller told me he was going to give back the whole lot to the guy because it wasn't worth his reputation to be selling these acetates that could be genuine but equally likely could be a rip off. He told me who the owner of these acetates was so I could follow it up if i wanted to. I knew him and liked him, but I decided because there was no way to verify their provenance I'd keep my money back - think most of that cash went on a Sam Williams on Tower?

It's a long time ago now, and I don't want to name names as with time I could be confused. I'm posting this not to witch hunt but to help determine genuineness. Thinking back now, possibly part of what made me a little uncomfortable and stopped me jumping in with both feet was that it was a black and white label and I was familiar with the yellow Virtue labelled acetates.  You have to remember we didn't know half of what we know now, back then, and as I asked about 'the record bar cognoscenti' told me it had to be a yellow label if it was a genuine mid 60's recording and that the white labels were things made at the end of 1969 onwards. Of course you had to wonder where this wisdom came from and the accuracy of it, but if something is said with enough conviction we tended to believe it, or maybe it was just me being gullible !

One last thing. As a kid there was a studio local to us that had a cutting lathe and many a N/S emidisc emerged from that place, but when I bumped into the chap who owned the place 20 odd years later I asked him what had happened to his machine he told me he'd sold it to some guys in the East Midlands, Leicester possibly. Could that machine be the source of these added to acetates?

Personally I still have bad dreams about this, wondering if I left behind a proper acetate of an awesome tune. Hope this info helps and hasn't just muddied the waters.

 

I remember around that time my mate bought one of those black and white label acetates from a big dealer for £500, the song? "She's Wanted" no less! When he showed me it I said the same thing about black white being unusual having only ever seen the yellow and blue. The whole thing just seemed wrong, minty single side acetate of a monster record, £500 was a lot of cash but cheap for that at the time. The other thing was it being on a sales list, surely it wouldn't have made on to a list, a big dealer would have had a queue of regular buyers for that. My mate phoned the dealer and got his cash back without too much debate....bit suspicious, eh!

 

 

 

[charliew]

There was a little debate and a mention of a car & a baseball bat before the refund was sorted  still 100% it was dodgy Mark didn't look/feel/smell right then when I found out where it came from I was positive !

 

 

[Mark W]

Aye, remember us looking at it wanting it to be real but just not convinced...good debating skills sorted it out!!

[Phild]

There were shit loads of blank Virtue acetates around about 20 or so years ago. You could have had Frank Wilson on one if you wanted

Edited February 16, 2016 by phild

[Kris Holmes]

Yeah, there is definitely at least one US dealer currently making fakes using original vintage blanks & doing very well fooling people into buying them.  Luckily for us though he doesn't seem to do soul.

[Guest Aaron Darcy]

On 5/1/2007 at 21:01, chalky said:

 

 

Wasn't it a Rob Marriott spin? Thats who I associate it with. Covered up as the Four Larks if memory serves me correctly

That is 100% Correct Rob Marriott spin , been at venues when Mr Marriott gave it spin late 80's

Edited February 25, 2016 by Aaron Darcy

[Quinvy]

The one on ebay is a different cut to the one Butch used to play. Where did Butch's copy come from?

[charliew]

Well that's at least 4 acetates then Butch, Keith, eBay & the one I seen getting spun at Prestaton last year in the queen vic !  Was one of them Robbs or does that make 5

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by charliew

[Eddie Hubbard]

Just as an aside , isn't The Barons Of Soul " You need love " the same backing track slowed down a bit ? certainly the break sounds the same to my ears ,any thoughts ?

 

[KevH]

52 minutes ago, Eddie Hubbard said:

Just as an aside , isn't The Barons Of Soul " You need love " the same backing track slowed down a bit ? certainly the break sounds the same to my ears ,any thoughts ?

 

Lyrically very similar as well Eddie.

[Neckender]

On 16/02/2016 at 20:50, Mark W said:

I remember around that time my mate bought one of those black and white label acetates from a big dealer for £500, the song? "She's Wanted" no less! When he showed me it I said the same thing about black white being unusual having only ever seen the yellow and blue. The whole thing just seemed wrong, minty single side acetate of a monster record, £500 was a lot of cash but cheap for that at the time. The other thing was it being on a sales list, surely it wouldn't have made on to a list, a big dealer would have had a queue of regular buyers for that. My mate phoned the dealer and got his cash back without too much debate....bit suspicious, eh!

 

 

 

The murky side of the Northern scene raises its head again. I was at that Keele all-nighter too, with my mate Tim. Next to us there was a record dealer selling home-made emi discs for £400 each. They were dressed up to look like authentic acetates, but having had many acetate's pass through our hands we couldn't be fooled. He admitted to selling the fakes and seemed to think it was ok.  We let him know that we didnt approve and remember Tim telling him that it was 'very naughty'  Our scolding seemed to have the desired affect and he moved them from his stall.  Obviously, from a couple of stories on here, some people were duped into buying some of this unethical vinyl.

There are many other stories about well known people on the scene making bespoke emi discs and doing their best to pass them off as original acetates.  During the 90s a well known dj made a series of dubs, spending a lot of time and effort to make them look authentic and then duly sold them to unsuspecting buyers, including some top djs.  This unethical practice was common knowledge in the scenes record bars (pre internet) so a lot of people knew that it was going on. 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

1 hour ago, neckender said:

 

There are many other stories about well known people on the scene making bespoke emi discs and doing their best to pass them off as original acetates.  During the 90s a well known dj made a series of dubs, spending a lot of time and effort to make them look authentic and then duly sold them to unsuspecting buyers, including some top djs.  This unethical practice was common knowledge in the scenes record bars (pre internet) so a lot of people knew that it was going on. 

Remember this well and the person involved. Some people took a big hit on these. 

[The City Never S]

Chris King supposed to have brought tons of blank Virtue studio discs on one of his visits to the studio, dollar a piece? Can’t remember the exact details now. And there were a lot of them too.

Regarding  the mainly orange issues of virtue things that came out mid 70’s, these were all legal in a deal involving John Anderson and Virtue studios to cater for the demand from the Uk Northern scene. Got this information from John Anderson himself, and also included the unissued instrumental like ’Puttin’ you on’,  and ‘Detroit City soul’.