Wade In The Water

[Godzilla]

A good mate of mine has to do something as part of his music degree. Here's what he wrote:

So right.. the idea is that I record these songs using the recording and production techniques from the original records. If I cant physically do that, I have to try and emulate it. So I've done "Wade in the Water" by Ramsey Lewis and have done a bit of research on the studios and equipment they used. I've got digitally modelled mixing desks and effects which I think are the same as the ones that they will have used. The reverb is an acoustic replica of the 1950's decca studios echo chamber; the drums are recorded using one old condenser mic in a room; the bass is recorded through a knackered 1960s fender bassman valve amp and stuff like that.

However.... it just doesn't sound right. I've done it on Rhodes rather than a real piano, but I quite like that. Its just the other stuff that I'm not too sure about. I don't know if its the way I'm playing it that hasn't got the right feel, (coz they made me play everything myself too) or just the way its been mixed. See if you can figure it out.

I've given him some feedback already and Mike (the pal in question) is happy for me to post the tune on here. Please try to make critisism constructive (not just 'it's crap' or 'I wouldn't dance to it' ta). As Mike says it's not supposed to be a slavish copy of Ramsey Lewis, more something with the feel of a recording from that period. There are no samples, as that's not the point here and all the instruments are played by Mike - the clever bastard So bearing that in mind, all comments gratefully recieved.

Godz

Edited April 17, 2007 by Godzilla

[Guest Bogue]

Bloody hell Godz ! how can he not be happy with that ? sounds great to me !

If you want to be over critical i would perhaps like to hear a bit more cymbal work, but the authentic feel is there for me

Edited April 17, 2007 by Bogue

[Godzilla]

Bloody hell Godz ! how can he not be happy with that ? sounds great to me !

If you want to be over critical i would perhaps like to hear a bit more cymbal work, but the authentic feel is there for me

Cheers Bogue. I think the converstion to the Clip player here might have roughened the sound a bit. The original CD Mike sent me sounds a bit "too produced" and that was one of the things we were trying to suss. Actually I suggested he copy it to Reel to Reel tape and then back to CD and I think he's gonna give it a whirl.

Thanks for replying mate

Edited April 17, 2007 by Godzilla

[Cunnie]

Not really into 'retro covers' so probably not the right person to comment on it but the kid's obviously got talent if he played everything himself.

Must have struck a chord as i played it twice & would'nt have done that if I had'nt have liked it.

Would like to know if he's done any original material & would like to hear it if he has.

[Dave Thorley]

Think it's a nice remake. The reverb is good, always a tricky thing to try and recreate. I remember getting a tour round studio A in Detroit and the guy telling me that at first they used to have two speakers in the attic space and a mic. Pipe the sound up during thye recording, then pick it back up through the mic to get a reverb effect.

Dave

[Godzilla]

Not really into 'retro covers' so probably not the right person to comment on it but the kid's obviously got talent if he played everything himself.

Must have struck a chord as i played it twice & would'nt have done that if I had'nt have liked it.

Would like to know if he's done any original material & would like to hear it if he has.

Yeah he's done loads of different stuff. He's a mature student too so he'll be delighted to be described as a kid

There's a clip of a track he did most of the music on here:

https://www.shithotrecords.co.uk/artists/174/

It's not fantastic quality mind. The tune is a Madchester type number by the not entirely serious Happy Mondays tribute The Mad Cyrils.

[Godzilla]

Think it's a nice remake. The reverb is good, always a tricky thing to try and recreate. I remember getting a tour round studio A in Detroit and the guy telling me that at first they used to have two speakers in the attic space and a mic. Pipe the sound up during thye recording, then pick it back up through the mic to get a reverb effect.

Dave

Brilliant Dave

Mike especially wants info on equipment and techniques used back in the day.

Ta

Edited April 17, 2007 by Godzilla

[Dave Thorley]

Brilliant Dave

Mike especially wants info on equipment and techniques used back in the day.

Ta

Tell him to stick a vocal on it and I'd play it , Go nice next to Billy Taylor Trio

Edited April 17, 2007 by Dave Thorley

[Guest]

The bass was really clear, I liked that

[Godzilla]

Tell him to stick a vocal on it and I'd play it , Go nice next to Billy Taylor Trio

well...

He is working on a a version of "Am I The Same Girl" but it's at an early stage and the drums sound a bit rocky so I won't post it until he's sorted it a bit.

Any more feedback chaps so I can pass it on to mike tomorrow? Particularly anything that gives the game away that it's a contemporary recording rather than a 60s one?

Cheers

Godz

[Dave Thorley]

well...

He is working on a a version of "Am I The Same Girl" but it's at an early stage and the drums sound a bit rocky so I won't post it until he's sorted it a bit.

Any more feedback chaps so I can pass it on to mike tomorrow? Particularly anything that gives the game away that it's a contemporary recording rather than a 60s one?

Cheers

Godz

Yes something about the drums, right near the intro sound very modern, the reverb on the drum?. Plus the whole thing is so clean. Don't know how many track recording it is, but that might have something to do with it.

[Godzilla]

Yes something about the drums, right near the intro sound very modern, the reverb on the drum?. Plus the whole thing is so clean. Don't know how many track recording it is, but that might have something to do with it.

Yeah - that's why I suggested chucking it on tape. Horns are nice though aren't they?

I'll ask him for a bit more techy info. I've got some on the bass recording if anyone's interested. Maybe PM would be best

Edited April 17, 2007 by Godzilla

[Guest cyrus]

great remake - has your mate tried using Steinbergs FreeFilter Plugin? I know its a cop out but it is supposed to emulate the Eq'ing on sound files played through it? I agree with dave the drums sound a bit dodge at the start. You cant really knock it though - did he do the brass as well?

[Godzilla]

great remake - has your mate tried using Steinbergs FreeFilter Plugin? I know its a cop out but it is supposed to emulate the Eq'ing on sound files played through it? I agree with dave the drums sound a bit dodge at the start. You cant really knock it though - did he do the brass as well?

Cheers Cyrus - I'll pass that on.

Yeah he played everything as far as I'm aware. In fact I got to know him in the late 80s when he was playing trumpet in a band I used to sort gigs for. They used to do Sock It to em JB, The Champion and stuff like that.

[Dave Thorley]

I find this a very interesting tread. Just underlines the magic of recordings made back then, that although you can achieve so much of what they did, that magic somthing is so elusive. Can put him intouch with guys in Detroit from back in the day if it helps him with the project.

Dave

[Cheltsoulnights]

Not bad at all

Its got a great psychedelic feel to it.

A worthy version.

For dancing reasons it would need a stronger slightly faster bassline.

Can you get him to do it in a young holt vein

would love to hear the results

[Godzilla]

I find this a very interesting tread. Just underlines the magic of recordings made back then, that although you can achieve so much of what they did, that magic somthing is so elusive. Can put him intouch with guys in Detroit from back in the day if it helps him with the project.

Dave

That would be just fantastic Dave. Exactly the sort of thing he needs to really nail the techniques of the time and understand what the guys were doing.

I'll PM you with Mike's details.

Cheers,

Paul

[soulsalmon]

That would be just fantastic Dave. Exactly the sort of thing he needs to really nail the techniques of the time and understand what the guys were doing.

I'll PM you with Mike's details.

Cheers,

Paul

get him to speak to carl dixon on here

[Guest Carl Dixon]

I must say this is excellent. I have listened once and read the comments above. I am hardly qualified to offer an appraisal, but here goes.

I believe the original piano licks were not off an electric keyboard and had more nuances with regard to key pressure. This versions piano has almost the same amplitude each note.

I also believe the bass was an upright on the original, which is a different kettle of fish.

The brass is fantastic.

I believe if the bass and piano were addressed, this version would be 99% there. It really is excellent. I would love to speak to the person who did this to exchange comments, I honestly think trying to emulate recording equipment could be another can of worms. The engineer who miked up the bass, for example may have done it in a particular way hence a certain sound. Also the tape stock back in the day! If it was Ampex or Scotch. They may have had slight differences. I think playing the notes in the right place and using the same instruments will yield a true performance in this instance.

[Sunnysoul]

Put him in touch with Snake Davis, could be a spot for him in the band

Edited April 18, 2007 by sunnysoul

[Martint]

sounds brill to me, echo carl's comment on the electric keyboard which does dislocate it somewhat from the era in which the original was recorded, but great, and love the trumpet work in particular... 10/10 gold star

[Godzilla]

I must say this is excellent. I have listened once and read the comments above. I am hardly qualified to offer an appraisal, but here goes.

I believe the original piano licks were not off an electric keyboard and had more nuances with regard to key pressure. This versions piano has almost the same amplitude each note.

I also believe the bass was an upright on the original, which is a different kettle of fish.

The brass is fantastic.

I believe if the bass and piano were addressed, this version would be 99% there. It really is excellent. I would love to speak to the person who did this to exchange comments, I honestly think trying to emulate recording equipment could be another can of worms. The engineer who miked up the bass, for example may have done it in a particular way hence a certain sound. Also the tape stock back in the day! If it was Ampex or Scotch. They may have had slight differences. I think playing the notes in the right place and using the same instruments will yield a true performance in this instance.

Thanks for the comments Carl

Just to clarify the original point, Mike's aim was to produce something that sounded as authentic as possible - not make a note for note copy of Ramsay Lewis' version. I also think his approach is different from your 60s Soul Project as he is using live instruments rather than midi files. Good point about how they miked things up though - which is why mike wants info from the people who did this stuff originally.

PM me your email address if you like and I'll forward it to Mike

Cheers mate,

Paul

[Godzilla]

Put him in touch with Snake Davis, could be a spot for him in the band

Mike knows Snake, mate. Snake played with various bands in my venues and has been popular in Scarborough since his days with Zoot and the Roots in the 80s.

Godz

[Godzilla]

sounds brill to me, echo carl's comment on the electric keyboard which does dislocate it somewhat from the era in which the original was recorded, but great, and love the trumpet work in particular... 10/10 gold star

Thanks Martin. I'm passing all these comments to Mike. Point of order though. Fender Rhodes electric Pianos have been around since at least 1965

https://www.fenderrhodes.com/models/silvertop.php

Cheers

Paul

Edited April 18, 2007 by Godzilla

[Guest]

Sounds good to me !!

[Pat]

Bloody hell Godz ! how can he not be happy with that ? sounds great to me !

If you want to be over critical i would perhaps like to hear a bit more cymbal work, but the authentic feel is there for me

I agree too! Doesn't sound bad to me and I'd definitely dance to it. Your mate should be very proud of himself.I know nothing about the technical side of records only know what I like to hear.

Pat

Edited April 18, 2007 by Pat

[pikeys dog]

Might I suggest that he replaces the electric Piano with a Hammond B3?

[Soulfinger]

I think that's fantastic, I'd be on the dancefloor to that. My lad who's a keyboard player says he likes the way the keyboard notes have been bent whatever that means!

And a mention in the thread for Zoot & the Roots - I first met my Mrs at a Zoot gig in the dim and distant.

[Godzilla]

Might I suggest that he replaces the electric Piano with a Hammond B3?

Too late for that mate. He's got about four weeks to nail the whole album. Last I heard he was still doing drums for Move On Up so he needs to get his 'arris in gear. I think the kind of suggestions he needs are more around the way the track is mixed. Doubt he'd have time to re-record the keyboards - besides, as mike stated in the quote I stuck up at the begining, he likes the idea of using the Rhodes. It's not as though old Ramsey was adverse to a bit of electric piano either - think Do What You Wanna Do.

Mind you, I know what you mean - a hammond version would be pretty tasty

Paul

[Godzilla]

I think that's fantastic, I'd be on the dancefloor to that. My lad who's a keyboard player says he likes the way the keyboard notes have been bent whatever that means!

I think he puts 'em in a vice

And a mention in the thread for Zoot & the Roots - I first met my Mrs at a Zoot gig in the dim and distant.

You'll remember Miles too then. Terrific frontman.

[Illya]

Your mate mick done good I enjoyed his retro sound and he is very talented and should try with a piano, just see (here) what it sounds like. Good to here

[timthemod]

Mike knows Snake, mate. Snake played with various bands in my venues and has been popular in Scarborough since his days with Zoot and the Roots in the 80s.

Godz

I think it sounds great, perhaps the horns could be more prominent. Also perhaps a Wurlitzer 200 Electric piano would be better. Although Rhodes have made piano's since the mid-sixties, the Wurlitzer is the predominent eletronic piano on most 60's recordings. Let's hope we can hear more 60's output.

[Godzilla]

Let's hope we can hear more 60's output.

I'll ask Mike about posting some more stuff as he completes it.

Probably a good job I'm not allowed to post up Tin Solder though - now that would put the wind up the mods

Godz

[timthemod]

Please post away 'Tin Soldier', at least it would get a fair hearing.

[Godzilla]

Please post away 'Tin Soldier', at least it would get a fair hearing.

I mean I don't think Mike who's producing this stuff would let me - I'll check though!

And by Mods I meant modernists - not moderators. Confusing myself here...

I don't think you'd like it though Tim

Paul

[Guest soul99 easylay]

Well, you know me Godz, I'm a complete and utter novice/layman when it comes to music as I haven't got a talented bone in my body, but I know what I like and I like what I bloody well know and that was top! It was a great version, Mike should give himself a great big pat on the back; however, in answer to the reason that you posted this on here, here are my findings (from a laymans point of view obviously).......ah-hem:

The problem is that we already know that it's a modern version searching for that 60s feel, so he's on the back-foot to start, as there is already a psychological hurdle to cross to start with, being as you (the listener) are over-analysing to find why it is modern, so the only real way to overcome that is to over compensate and falsify the recording and put a slight background hiss to dull off the top ends, maybe even record in an empty room to give it a bit of echo and take the sharpness/newness of the recording.

As for the bits that made the track sound modern to me were:

The claps - it's got to be real hands or nothing - the ones on the track sounded like a drum machine?

The brass - it was beautiful, but this is the bit of the track which I think needs making sharper and louder - to give it that recorded in one take 60s feel, (the brass is definately the lead of this track and I think if you get that right you are half way there).

The rhythm/lead guitar really stood out as the dead give-away for me, the amp used is too (dare I say it) "rocky", maybe a poorer quality amp or even a lesser guitar so the sound isn't as tuned and smooth.

To top it off, why not give it a blast with a Hammond; however, that said the keyboards do sound great.

But I think it needs to be given the "Mike Flowered Pops" treatment to give it a 60s feel and if all else fails a quick call across the pond to order a bag of Holland-Dozier-Holland / Berry Gordy magic dust!

PS Ask Mike to give "There's a ghost in my house" a whirl - that tracks got 60s written all over it! (Actually maybe choosing the right track is just as important as the process, after all some music doesn't age well does it?).

[Guest kent soul club]

I think that is bloody amazing! It conjured up a picture ,in my mind, of a smoky sixties jazz club.

Sorry, not able to give any advice or criticism-just good luck to the fella.

Magoo.

[Godzilla]

On Mike's behalf I'd like to pass on a huge thanks for all the comments. I think he's even joined up to read them - never thought I'd see the day!

In a few moments I'll be posting the next part of his 60s music project - Move on Up.

Now that should get a reaction

Cheers

Godz

[ImberBoy]

I hope this doesn't throw a grenade into the "Ian Levine" camp, but this is what he was missing on his productions............................ Soul with a funky feel, I think both this version of Wade in the water and Move on Up has teeth! Ian should have used some thing like this with a bit of street grit instead of the vacuous clinically clean soulless antiseptic pish he used.

Great sound, bloody well done!

[Guest Dan]

really good but a bit slow. sounds 60s to me, in a way that the 4 vandals never did.

get him to create some proper newies for you - you could be an overnight millionaire